Yeah ha ha they know I can. Guess I'll use that second line, with the excuse being 大学院のために金を貯めらなくちゃならあい, which is actually just as true and relevant as the fact that I don't like their faces.
I'm glad that you think I'm capable of using 俺, because I already do. ;)
Japanese language
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I wish I had the problem of not knowing how to say no to drinking in Japan.
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@CCC:
Yeah ha ha they know I can. Guess I'll use that second line, with the excuse being 大学院のために金を貯めらなくちゃならあい, which is actually just as true and relevant as the fact that I don't like their faces.
I'm glad that you think I'm capable of using 俺, because I already do. ;)Speaking of omitting ら, I believe you mean 貯めなくちゃならない
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…So that's why the auto-kanjifier wasn't working with that conjugation. Of course!
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If I may ask…why are the Japanese times of day so...different from their given kanji?
I mean like... how is 明日 read ashita? Or why is 昨日 read kinou?
And how in hell is 二十歳 hatachi? -
@Bond:
If I may ask…why are the Japanese times of day so...different from their given kanji?
I mean like... how is 明日 read ashita? Or why is 昨日 read kinou?
And how in hell is 二十歳 hatachi?It's nothing particular about time words, really. Words like the ones you listed existed in proto-Japanese and the multiple kanji were only attached to them to explain meaning. Neither the onyomi nor the typical kunyomi is used, and unlike kunyomi+kunyomi-reading words (like 割合or 悪口), you can't technically divide the sounds and say which belong to which kanji like you can with other jyukugo (example of typical onyomi+onyomi jyukugo: 海賊 = kaizoku = 海 (kai) + 賊 (zoku)).
There are plenty of other instances of this. Off the top of my head, 上手(じょうず)、下手(へた)、部屋(へや)、行方(ゆくえ)、居心地(いごこち)、為替(かわせ)、田舎(いなか)、竹刀(しない)、土産(みやげ)、時雨(しぐれ)、大人(おとな). They're frequent favorites of the kanji kentei test makers, who don't think it's enough for you to just study thousands of onyomi and kunyomi and busyu and synonyms and antonyms and homonyms and 4-character quaint sayings, but also all of these weirdo exception words.
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@Bond:
If I may ask…why are the Japanese times of day so...different from their given kanji?
I mean like... how is 明日 read ashita? Or why is 昨日 read kinou?
And how in hell is 二十歳 hatachi?Hatachi means 20 years old. If I remember right, it's one of those things from the olden days that's still used today (I think in Japan, you're an adult when you're 20, so that's significant). I know some people will just say "hatachi desu" instead of "ni juu sai desu" to say their age.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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So basically, they're just kanji that have been pasted on originally fully Japanese words?
So would it be wrong if I read them according to their kanji or would that just make me seem like an uneducated noob? I mean yeah, there's no getting around あした or きのう…but what about something like 大人? If I want to say "adult" and the first thing I think of is the kanji, and I instinctively say だいじん, would that just be me being stupid or is it a common mistake in Japan? -
@Bond:
So basically, they're just kanji that have been pasted on originally fully Japanese words?
So would it be wrong if I read them according to their kanji or would that just make me seem like an uneducated noob? I mean yeah, there's no getting around あした or きのう…but what about something like 大人? If I want to say "adult" and the first thing I think of is the kanji, and I instinctively say だいじん, would that just be me being stupid or is it a common mistake in Japan?That would be you making a mistake, and not a common one (because for natives, learning the spoken language obviously comes before writing, so no little kid is going to struggle to think of the word for adult and go to the kanji as a reference, because they're already thinking in Japanese).
It's completely wrong to just read every given jyukugo according to its kanjis' onyomi (the possibilities are on+on, kun+kun, on+kun, kun+on, and then these types we're talking about here). In the case of 大人, people would probably have no idea what you were trying to say, given that daijin has other meanings (most notably cabinet minister), none of which are "adult." Incidentally, "taijin" is an accepted reading of 大人, but with completely different implications (it's "man of substance," "gentleman," or "giant"). And… my dictionary is saying that "dainin" is a possible reading that also means adult, but I've never once heard that before (help us out on nuance, Aohige! Is "dainin" something that only jijis and babas say, or what?). This is why, imo, vocabulary should be studied as little packages, complete with pronunciation, meaning, and kanji, all at the same time. Splitting up those components to be learned at different times is just asking for trouble. -
I see.
Learning Chinese first has its drawbacks I guess.
I always get thrown off on whether I should be using on-yomi or kun-yomi, usually getting it wrong in the end. Rote-memorisation is all I have now. -
Chinese huh…
Well you're well-equipped for onyomi + onyomi, and that's actually the best guess you can make most of the time for multi-kanji jyukugo if you have nothing else to go on. They seem to outnumber the other combinations. -
@Bond:
I see.
Learning Chinese first has its drawbacks I guess.
I always get thrown off on whether I should be using on-yomi or kun-yomi, usually getting it wrong in the end. Rote-memorisation is all I have now.Correct me if i´m wrong but i think that dàren is more often used to respectfully address a superior anyway.
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Well, I'm not from China so I don't know how they use it there…but over here, da4 ren2 refers to adults in general.
We address our superiors with either xian1 sheng1 (先生) or xiao2 jie3 (小姐). There are many other ways to address superiors, ranging from calling them uncle/aunty, to calling them boss, but those are more casual and usually use dialects that are not Mandarin.
The two I posted are just the most formal.While we're on the subject of Chinese, is it 中国語 or 中語 in Japanese? Or perhaps it's 華語 like in Chinese?
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It's 中国語. But the food is 中華料理.
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@Bond:
Well, I'm not from China so I don't know how they use it there…but over here, da4 ren2 refers to adults in general.
We address our superiors with either xian1 sheng1 (先生) or xiao2 jie3 (小姐). There are many other ways to address superiors, ranging from calling them uncle/aunty, to calling them boss, but those are more casual and usually use dialects that are not Mandarin.
The two I posted are just the most formal.While we're on the subject of Chinese, is it 中国語 or 中語 in Japanese? Or perhaps it's 華語 like in Chinese?
Really? Are you referring to Taiwan when you say over here? I am asking because the way i learned it (Mandarin based on Peking accent), xiansheng and xiaojie are neutral, used like mister and miss, while daren really is a respectful way to address your superior. The word "adult" on the other hand would chéng rén.
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Really? Are you referring to Taiwan when you say over here? I am asking because the way i learned it (Mandarin based on Peking accent), xiansheng and xiaojie are neutral, used like mister and miss, while daren really is a respectful way to address your superior. The word "adult" on the other hand would chéng rén.
Over here is Malaysia. What you just told me sounds incredibly Chinese (as in, it sounds like it comes from China).
I guess Malaysian Chinese have just evolved to be more casual, even in supposedly formal situations. -
@Bond:
Over here is Malaysia. What you just told me sounds incredibly Chinese (as in, it sounds like it comes from China).
I guess Malaysian Chinese have just evolved to be more casual, even in supposedly formal situations.Chinese is not an official language Malaysia, right? I just remember Malay and English. I know though that there are many Chinese living there. Generally, it is quite interesting how one language (in this case Mandarin) can sometimes have small but still significant changes based on the area it is spoken. I mean, Taiwanese and Chinese Mandarin already differ on a day to day basis, Singapur Mandarin has many changes and so forth.
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@Bond:
So basically, they're just kanji that have been pasted on originally fully Japanese words?
In response to this point, yes you are correct. There are roughly three categories here.
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Vocabulary taken from Chinese, with pronunciation and reading stemming from Chinese. Basically these are on-yomi words.
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Native Japanese words that are written with a single kanji (because everything was written with kanji originally; it was the first writing system in Japan). These are not confusing because you associate one character with one Japanese word, and of course they can be combined and form kun-yomi compounds, such as 歯磨く (ha-migaku).
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Native Japanese words that are written with multiple kanji simply based on the characters' meaning. This really isn't different from #2 but the counter-intuitive part is that it uses multiple kanji for a single word with no relation to the individual readings of each character in either kun- or on-yomi. This is where all your examples fall (明日 etc). In theory it pictographically makes sense, but not phonetically. It's like if I drew a box and people to signify a house. If you read it literally you might say it's a "people-box" but people would laugh at you because the actual word is "house."
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In response to this point, yes you are correct. There are roughly three categories here.
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Vocabulary taken from Chinese, with pronunciation and reading stemming from Chinese. Basically these are on-yomi words.
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Native Japanese words that are written with a single kanji (because everything was written with kanji originally; it was the first writing system in Japan). These are not confusing because you associate one character with one Japanese word, and of course they can be combined and form kun-yomi compounds, such as 歯磨く (ha-migaku).
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Native Japanese words that are written with multiple kanji simply based on the characters' meaning. This really isn't different from #2 but the counter-intuitive part is that it uses multiple kanji for a single word with no relation to the individual readings of each character in either kun- or on-yomi. This is where all your examples fall (明日 etc). In theory it pictographically makes sense, but not phonetically. It's like if I drew a box and people to signify a house. If you read it literally you might say it's a "people-box" but people would laugh at you because the actual word is "house."
How significant is the amount of words that belong to the first category? Just so that i can prepare myself
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How significant is the amount of words that belong to the first category? Just so that i can prepare myself
I wouldn't be able to quote a percentage of the language, but quite a huge amount.
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Chinese is not an official language Malaysia, right? I just remember Malay and English. I know though that there are many Chinese living there. Generally, it is quite interesting how one language (in this case Mandarin) can sometimes have small but still significant changes based on the area it is spoken. I mean, Taiwanese and Chinese Mandarin already differ on a day to day basis, Singapur Mandarin has many changes and so forth.
You are correct. While Malaysia is a primarily Malay nation, the Chinese stand for the 2nd largest demographic of the population. Chinese is thus, commonly spoken in our country, but is not considered an official or national language.
In response to this point, yes you are correct. There are roughly three categories here.
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Vocabulary taken from Chinese, with pronunciation and reading stemming from Chinese. Basically these are on-yomi words.
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Native Japanese words that are written with a single kanji (because everything was written with kanji originally; it was the first writing system in Japan). These are not confusing because you associate one character with one Japanese word, and of course they can be combined and form kun-yomi compounds, such as 歯磨く (ha-migaku).
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Native Japanese words that are written with multiple kanji simply based on the characters' meaning. This really isn't different from #2 but the counter-intuitive part is that it uses multiple kanji for a single word with no relation to the individual readings of each character in either kun- or on-yomi. This is where all your examples fall (明日 etc). In theory it pictographically makes sense, but not phonetically. It's like if I drew a box and people to signify a house. If you read it literally you might say it's a "people-box" but people would laugh at you because the actual word is "house."
That is very much enlightening, thank you.
But where does that leave on-kunyomi/kun-onyomi compounds? Just out of curiosity. -
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@Bond:
That is very much enlightening, thank you.
But where does that leave on-kunyomi/kun-onyomi compounds? Just out of curiosity.Well, there are always exceptions to the rules to make us all suffer :P
I couldn't tell you how those came about and there's no rule or easy way of spotting them. I suppose you could make that a 4th category.
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5 minutes of being dumbfounded for seeing someone adressed as otaku before getting myself educated on the fact(thanks google) that the most common connotation for otaku is actually a slang and that the word itself can be used as a formal pronoun.
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Well… failed JLPT 1 kyuu... by 3 points. 3 damn points. Kanji/vocab/grammar and listening were alright, but reading did me in.
The plan now is to try again 2 years from now, after having been at grad school in Tokyo for 1.5 years, and crush the thing. That's probably the better outcome, anyway, because it wouldn't have been very impressive to apply for jobs having only the minimum score needed to pass. :P
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@CCC:
Well… failed JLPT 1 kyuu... by 3 points. 3 damn points. Kanji/vocab/grammar and listening were alright, but reading did me in.
The plan now is to try again 2 years from now, after having been at grad school in Tokyo for 1.5 years, and crush the thing. That's probably the better outcome, anyway, because it wouldn't have been very impressive to apply for jobs having only the minimum score needed to pass. :P
My condolences, may I ask how long you've been at it(studying japanese in general)? Also sounds like a good plan, since I guess the best use one can get out of the jlpt seems to be the certificate (since if it is anything like the toefl the thing won't really test your skill in using the language in everyday life).
I've played around with the idea of doing the thing some time but I'm probably still at least 2 years away and I guess one would want to spend time training for the test with testing materials even if one is pretty confident in all the required skills (because test question can be weird).
edit: Also sorry if it's still to early to ask, so ignore it at your leisure .
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@CCC:
Well… failed JLPT 1 kyuu... by 3 points. 3 damn points. Kanji/vocab/grammar and listening were alright, but reading did me in.
The plan now is to try again 2 years from now, after having been at grad school in Tokyo for 1.5 years, and crush the thing. That's probably the better outcome, anyway, because it wouldn't have been very impressive to apply for jobs having only the minimum score needed to pass. :P
That blows. If I failed it by that little I wouldn't want to take it for a while. Congrats on grad school and evidently moving? At least you'll be able to have more fun and not be surrounded by people who make you miserable.
I might take N1 this year if I can put together any kind of studying streak (unlikely), I even got a Daruma to stare at me blankly and feel guilty about it.
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@ Darth: I've been "studying" since freshman year of college (2007), but with an unfortunate yearlong break in 2010-2011 because there were no more language classes and I wasn't motivated enough for self-study at that point except by limping lamely through every volume of One Piece. Did a bit of studying for 2 kyuu and passed it without too much difficulty in December 2011, but I studied my ass off for 1 kyuu.
My native speaker friend (American born, but with a Japanese mother) did zero studying for 1 kyuu and got 130/180 points (I got 87), so I'll assume that 130:50 is about the ratio of "experience" knowledge vs. "textbook study" knowledge on the test (he's self-admittedly terrible with kanji). There are also a number of supposedly obscure grammar points that my coworkers and students have told me resemble the way characters speak in samurai-era dramas and literature, aka not really relevant to real life (and about 6 different ways to say "as soon as," but all with different connotations that nobody could explain). But the test is no longer just an abstract $60-a-pop goal for my own pride; it's actually an explicit job qualification for what I've determined is my dream career as a localizer at Nintendo.
@Steven: Yeah, not in a rush at this point. Better to go in again with as much practical language experience behind me as possible. I would recommend to you the study books that I used, except that they underestimated the difficulty by a ton (especially listening: Practice problems were about slow-speaking individuals buying pizza and beer for a party. Actual test was about butchos and shachos rapidly discussing business meetings and the merits of different printing companies in kusojiji-ben) and were altogether useless.
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Hey, anybody here apply for JET? I've got my interview tomorrow and I wonder if I need my ID number from the application
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Hey, anybody here apply for JET? I've got my interview tomorrow and I wonder if I need my ID number from the application
I don't remember about the ID number (have it, just in case?) but here are some tips from what I remember from my interview:
-Dress respectably. There were a bunch of shabby-looking kids in jeans and tennis shoes who looked decidedly out of place in a consulate.
-Smile and come across as personable as possible. Your interviewers might not be smiling, but I think that's just an intimidation tactic, so don't let that throw you.
-There were a lot of questions about my studies in college and my study abroad, so be ready for that.
-The Japanese native interviewer asked mostly very basic questions (in Japanese) but there were a few curveballs, like "Why on earth did you say that you want to work in the "countryside"?" Why indeed. Why indeed…
-Be ready for the sample lesson. I wasn't asked to do one, but I probably would have been fucked if I were.
-Don't stress. Knowing you, you're probably more qualified than a lot of the other slobs there, with both language ability and genuine interest in the country/culture. It's just a rumor, but I've heard that they value/devalue language ability on alternating years. If it was a plus for me in 2011... then you should be good this year too. Don't flaunt it of your own accord, but don't hold back when asked.Good luck! I won't be at your Tokyo orientation in the summer, but I'm sure a number of my acquaintances will be. :D
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@CCC:
I don't remember about the ID number (have it, just in case?) but here are some tips from what I remember from my interview:
-Dress respectably. There were a bunch of shabby-looking kids in jeans and tennis shoes who looked decidedly out of place in a consulate.
-Smile and come across as personable as possible. Your interviewers might not be smiling, but I think that's just an intimidation tactic, so don't let that throw you.
-There were a lot of questions about my studies in college and my study abroad, so be ready for that.
-The Japanese native interviewer asked mostly very basic questions (in Japanese) but there were a few curveballs, like "Why on earth did you say that you want to work in the "countryside"?" Why indeed. Why indeed…
-Be ready for the sample lesson. I wasn't asked to do one, but I probably would have been fucked if I were.
-Don't stress. Knowing you, you're probably more qualified than a lot of the other slobs there, with both language ability and genuine interest in the country/culture. It's just a rumor, but I've heard that they value/devalue language ability on alternating years. If it was a plus for me in 2011... then you should be good this year too. Don't flaunt it of your own accord, but don't hold back when asked.Good luck! I won't be at your Tokyo orientation in the summer, but I'm sure a number of my acquaintances will be. :D
Thanks. Yeah, I'm confident my chances are good, if not completely stellar.
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I hope they won't do this to me
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@CCC, thx for the answer! It's admirable that you survived a whole year without jumping the train entirely. I wouldn't be able to do it, it's already insanely hard for me to get my motivation back up after one month of slacking due other exams.
The more I learn about japanese the more it seems I won't be able to really get it without having a extended stay in japan(unlike with other western languages) :/. Also awesome dream! Even if it means very little but I wish you the best on the way getting there!@gliblord, good luck(or if isn't needed, may you retain your composure through the ordeal ) to you at the interview!
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If they tell me to speak in Japanese, should I use keigo? Because if so I need to brush up
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If they tell me to speak in Japanese, should I use keigo? Because if so I need to brush up
Just desu/masu your way through it.
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@Steven:
Just desu/masu your way through it.
Teach-san no iken wo kikasete arigatou gozaimashita
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This will actually be my first job interview. I've got all the possible questions and their perfect answers typed out, but will I be able to summon these answers when it's crunch time? Stay tuned for that
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You'll nail it chief. I think at some point in the future during your stay in Japan, you should translate all the critical analysis of Bleach on the blog into Japanese and have it published. Just for the heck of it.
On a side note, I've dropped learning Japanese(well maybe not dropped, but stopped for the time-being), partly for this reason;
The more I learn about japanese the more it seems I won't be able to really get it without having a extended stay in japan
and partly because I don't think it'll give me an added advantage in business and work in general(since I don't even plan on moving to Japan and there isn't a good opportunity to meet native speakers where I plan to work). I'm now considering my options from languages I'm passionate about and it'll probably be either Spanish or Chinese(Mandarin at first). Chinese seems more appealing since I already know quite a few common Kanji, but tones are a bitch. The same can be said for Spanish due to the decent pool of words shared with English, but I don't feel as strongly about it as compared to Chinese.
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You'll nail it chief. I think at some point in the future during your stay in Japan, you should translate all the critical analysis of Bleach on the blog into Japanese and have it published. Just for the heck of it.
LOL that would be rad, but unfortunately I don't think my sense of humor translates very easily at all
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that's hilarious, what manga is this from?
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that's hilarious, what manga is this from?
Majin Tantei Nougami Neuro
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I did well! Yay!
I stumbled on the first question with awkward pauses but then I replied pretty okay to the others. I think I wowed them with my enthusiasm and sense of humor during the mock lesson ("Why is it called a hot dog?" "I expect an essay out of all of you tomorrow on that subject.") However, I was asked my opinion on some International Relations stuff (my major) like the Senkaku Islands, and since I haven't honestly been keeping very current at all, my grasp of the situation slipped a little and made the (maybe?) faux pas of ascribing it mostly to nationalism without addressing Japan's stronger claim to the islands and their apparent economic benefit to the nation. I also didn't have an answer for how to solve NK's nuclear ambitions (though I stated that outright, and was the one who brought it up in the first place, so that's all evened out in the end).
When asked to speak Japanese, it was clear I was pretty out of practice (I even used iru when I should have used aru, fuck me). "Mou ichido onegai shite" as opposed to "shimasu"--I was just kind of out of it (probably because I couldn't sleep very well lol). But I think they liked me a lot because I proferred cogent answers to all the big questions, always including my international background and experience. I was brought to America for better schooling (I was learning disabled and there wasn't any good education in Italy), so of course I would think teaching abroad is awesome! And JET was founded on the principles of broadening horizons and strengthening international relations, which I firmly believe in! That kind of stuff.
Lastly, when they asked me why I loved Japan, I told it was because of my awesome Japanese professor, but then they pressed on with "Any cultural things you like?" and I let slip I was a manga enthusiast, but I specified "seinen" manga lol (specifically Urasawa stuff). I even buy tankoubon without ofurigana (actually I said "okurigana" WHOOPS) because I'm HARDCOOOOOREEEE
Also my fly was open, WHOOPS, hope nobody noticed
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I was brought to America for better schooling (I was learning disabled and there wasn't any good education in Italy), so of course I would think teaching abroad is awesome! And JET was founded on the principles of broadening horizons and strengthening international relations, which I firmly believe in! That kind of stuff.
That's just the kind of thing they love to hear, and not something that every applicant can boast of ;D
And don't worry about your fly being down- odds are that only the young, pretty interviewer noticed.Now comes the horrible wait until April. Keep us updated!
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@CCC:
That's just the kind of thing they love to hear, and not something that every applicant can boast of ;D
And don't worry about your fly being down- odds are that only the young, pretty interviewer noticed.Now comes the horrible wait until April. Keep us updated!
I think at the least I'll be a reserve
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I have a dumb question! Why is "HOLD IT" matta instead of matte?
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Uh… It's not? ^^;
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Oh I see what you mean. Yeah as an interjection you can say that (it's still perfectly correct to say "matte" too, by itself or otherwise). I think it may come from sumo but I'm not sure.
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Oh I see what you mean. Yeah as an interjection you can say that (it's still perfectly correct to say "matte" too, by itself or otherwise). I think it may come from sumo but I'm not sure.
I thought it might have been something along the lines of "I waited… NOW IT'S MY TURN TO SPEAK" lol
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I thought it might have been something along the lines of "I waited… NOW IT'S MY TURN TO SPEAK" lol
I'm not sure how much benefit there is to trying to find strict conjugational sense to the interjection. As you can see it's already in the dictionary basically as its own word: http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/srch/je/待った/m0u/tab/
I'm curious as to the origin though. If it is an expression relating to a sumo match or other event (there are also references to Shougi), then it may have originally been an announcement for a situation that involves a pause. And then it could have started being used out of context to request a halt? I'm totally speculating.
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Should I be prudent and remove the post about how I did on the interview in case they look me up and go "oh jeez this guy is so crass"
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I wouldn't worry. There are whole forums out there where super nerdy JET applicants discuss this stuff ad nauseam with each other (I went there just to be a parasite and steal some tips…). And they'd have to be pretty dedicated to hunt you down all the way to here considering your real name isn't on this site.
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@CCC:
I wouldn't worry. There are whole forums out there where super nerdy JET applicants discuss this stuff ad nauseam with each other (I went there just to be a parasite and steal some tips…). And they'd have to be pretty dedicated to hunt you down all the way to here considering your real name isn't on this site.
I'm getting paranoid lol
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Probably not the right thread, but I'm curious:
Do foreigners ever make their kanji proficiency up to kanken grade one? If so, how often?