Oda drawing himself into a corner?

[kljs]

I have been pondering this after I caught up on the manga (from Chapter 1)….and Enies Lobby has me thinking about what the effect of Luffy waging war on the World Goverment will eventually become......

Now, the situation is critical with the CP9 defeated (not counting Lucchi) and the Buster Call and the burning of the flag.

Now, lets fast forward to after all this has settle (can it settle in the first place?). Assuming Luffy and gang got way clear of Enies Lobby and Franky build a new ship (or Galley-ra build it) and the mugiawaras are on their way deeper into the Grandline.

Now, it would seem they aren't going to be as laid back as before Water 7. The Mugiwaras have declared war on the World Goverment, and they dealt a crucial blow to the World Goverment in Enies Lobby. I am sure they the World Goverment and the Marines are going to go on all out to take out the Mugiwaras as soon as possible.

With situation like this, can Oda really draw the Mugiwaras as laid back as before? If after Enies Lobby, you see Luffy and gang sailing smoothly without anyone chasing after them until their next arc/saga, isn't that really weird considering that they are now at war with the major world powers.

The argument of the World Goverment regrouping can be accepted to a certain degree, but I doubt Enies Lobby has all of the World Goverment's(marines) major forces there...there ought to be "others" that they can recall to go after the mugiwaras and maybe they could "order" the Shichibukai to hunt down the mugiwaras at the same time.

I felt that Oda is really drawing himself into a corner with this major stuff the Mugiwaras is doing. Luffy might still be able to laugh it away, and Zoro doesn't care, but the rest of the Mugiwaras would have taken a hit of reality after the dust settles and they find out that going against the World Goverment isn't really a good idea at all or something like that. Can Oda get away with all this seriousness, and get back to some non-serious business after this? or will he cut down on the laughs and stuff and get more serious?

[AvanMilton]

First, the world is fairly large, with islands that dont have a trace of WG, Little Garden, Long Ring, (maybe Whiskey Peak, Drum and the Jaya).

Second, a ship while sailing is virtually untrackeble (sp?? - impossible tracking), while being in open sea really isn't a calm option, with changing currents, natural disasters, etc, the SH pirates can still find some tranquility there.

[Rogultgot]

Now, what would've really made me laugh here if you'd posted a picture of Oda literally drawing himself, in a corner.

Any-hoo, I'm sure that however the Strawhats get out of Enies Lobby, they'll probably make it to the next island safe, or the new ship's firepower will take down any marines. If they get new bounties, the news won't travel faster than the ship will. Hell, Luffy and Zoro didn't know they had (new) bounties until way after they got them, neither did whats-their-faces. And maybe if they meet some more pirates, they will revere Luffy and his crew for doing the Lobby act. I dunno.

[shinpfn]

I agree with you only to a certain extent. What waging war upon WG mean is that now agents will be sent non stop after then. WG will stop to take them lightly. But WG can not send all of thei forces because Ruffy and Co. are not the only pirates causing problems right now. Shanks, for example, is making contact with Whitebeard, and that will draw a lot more atention than what happened in Enies Lobby. So, WG will send a Shitibukai or two after them, but more than that and they are risking themselves of geting of guard by other groups of strong pirates.

[bennyb]

More like how is Oda gonna top the CP9 fights when the next major arc/huge battle comes along? I have faith in this guys ability to write but at the same time I can't help but wonder…

[Parz]

@kljs:

I felt that Oda is really drawing himself into a corner with this major stuff the Mugiwaras is doing. Luffy might still be able to laugh it away, and Zoro doesn't care, but the rest of the Mugiwaras would have taken a hit of reality after the dust settles and they find out that going against the World Goverment isn't really a good idea at all or something like that. Can Oda get away with all this seriousness, and get back to some non-serious business after this? or will he cut down on the laughs and stuff and get more serious?

I really doubt that Oda's going to cut down on laughs after this arc. Part of what makes Oda such a great writer is the fact that he can write comedy into the most serious situations, and it doesn't seem out of place. Plus, Oda just really doesn't seem like that the sort of person who can be 100% serious all the time.

[yoshis007]

you have to remember that there are other groups of pirates out there…
just because we all care a lot about the strawhat pirates doesn't mean they're on top of WG's priority list...

however, I'm sure WG will do something drastic against them... (I have a feelings that its going to be the blackbeard.. but its just a random guess)

[Polygon]

**Just look at the Red Hairs, they're even more laid back than the SH.

The SH will remain the SH. I'm sure the second part of the GL will have a slightly draker feel, but the SH will stay like they always have. Really, they've ben looking for the SH since Arabasta.**

[Yoska]

Yeah, they will remain the same. Next following arc(s) will probably be light hearted.

[Xetalimn_Erket]

Oda started "drew himself into a corner" in chapter one by introducing a rubber boy of a would-be pirate. The limitations on applications of such a power seem pretty obvious, but Oda has managed to astound us even now.

OP was fully outlined years ago; likely, Oda took this new perception of the Straw Hats into perspective, so there's likely to be little effect on the future progression/tone of the series.

[Mugiwara Kaizoku]

Do u think Shanks' and Whitebeards pirate crews have a peace contract with the WG? …i doubt it!
But they manage to have fun just fine!
After Shanks and Luffys flashback I have never EVER seen Shanks sober again! (btw. Whitebeard too )

And the WG probably has the hardest time ever, since Gol D. Roger, focusing on Shanks and Whitebeards meeting asside from the Enies Lobby incedent.

After taking down CP9 and perhaps the full force of a Buster Call the WG only has 3 to 5 people left cappable of dealing with the SHs when you keep the Shichibukai asside, which i doubt they have full control over.
Which means the Admirals or Mr. Buddha himself would have to deal with 'em (guess Smoker still has a chance, too), at least these are the few tough guys we know...

So my oppinion is that Luffys crew will go on as usual after Enies Lobby, maybe even with less fights against the WG/Marines because they will be WORLD FAMOUS afterwards!!!
But i honestly don't think that the WG will be the biggest problem the SHs will have to face, especially because of the WG being so damn twisted in itself (Ao Kiji having doubts, Gourosei desperatly trying to hold back the truth--> the WG will end up destroying itself). We all know that this era is supposed to be the Pirate Era so there's their biggest problem.

[Xetalimn_Erket]

I take back what I said. Oda drew himself into a corner when he had to choose between Sanji or Sogeking getting a fair fight with Jyabura.

[joekido the Second]

As long as Luffy and co. sail the Grand Line, have adventures, manage to walk through cities without any big hostile, explore more islands without the WG senting waves of agents, marines and bounty hunters everywhere they go then I'll be fine with it.

[onemoment]

@Xetalimn_Erket:

I take back what I said. Oda drew himself into a corner when he had to choose between Sanji or Sogeking getting a fair fight with Jyabura.

Um, no. That has nothing to do with this. If Sanji didn't fight Jyabura, he would have been useless and had no point in the arc.

Usopp will do something else. Quit whining, they'll be bigger things then Jyabura in their future.

[joekido the Second]

I have said before, if Usopp had fought Jabura, Franky will not be able to catch up with Robin and she would be long gone. I'm a Usopp fan who understands this. Before EL I thought Usopp will stand on Kaku's bloody nose and body; waving the mask and say "I did it! I'm a man" but bad bad Adrian Gomez(me) should have known better then to jump the conclusion due to the fact that Oda is too unpredicatble.

Now Adrian who is a Usopp fan finally realize that Usopp don't need to use the "DIAL OF DOOM!" to rejoin the crew.

[Taleran]

think about all the places and things that Oda has shown us in 424 chapters

I don't think this man knows what the word Corner means

[Xetalimn_Erket]

@onemoment:

Um, no. That has nothing to do with this. If Sanji didn't fight Jyabura, he would have been useless and had no point in the arc.

Both Usopp and Sanji were forced into that situation by Oda. That's the corner. Sanji had two prior defining moments when he kicked arse on the Sea Train and stomached a defeat from Califa.

Usopp's defining moments were getting beaten up by Luffy, getting bashed by Blueno (twice), hiding in Oimo's hair and being "raped" by Jyabura.

That sucks. Big time.

@onemoment:

Usopp will do something else. Quit whining, they'll be bigger things then Jyabura in their future.

Pardon, but I am not partial to any Straw Hat. If you dislike my "whining", perhaps you recognise the merit in my language but simply refuse to admit my ideas as a possibility because you enjoy your illusionary world of Sogeking superiority.

Facts are facts; Sogeking, despite the hype, has not entered the same league as the other Straw Hat pirates.

[Aldrich]

@Xetalimn_Erket:

Both Usopp and Sanji were forced into that situation by Oda. That's the corner. Sanji had two prior defining moments when he kicked arse on the Sea Train and stomached a defeat from Califa.

Usopp's defining moments were getting beaten up by Luffy, getting bashed by Blueno (twice), hiding in Oimo's hair and being "raped" by Jyabura.

That sucks. Big time.

Pardon, but I am not partial to any Straw Hat. If you dislike my "whining", perhaps you recognise the merit in my language but simply refuse to admit my ideas as a possibility because you enjoy your illusionary world of Sogeking superiority.

Facts are facts; Sogeking, despite the hype, has not entered the same league as the other Straw Hat pirates.

QFT

(this is a useless supporting post, kinda like Usopp's role in the manga)

[onemoment]

@Xetalimn_Erket:

Both Usopp and Sanji were forced into that situation by Oda. That's the corner. Sanji had two prior defining moments when he kicked arse on the Sea Train and stomached a defeat from Califa.

Usopp's defining moments were getting beaten up by Luffy, getting bashed by Blueno (twice), hiding in Oimo's hair and being "raped" by Jyabura.

That sucks. Big time.

That's not writing yourself into a corner, that's just a turn in the story. Do you really think the author couldn't think of a way to beat Jyabura?

As for being forced into something, Usopp can still do something to prove himself useful later. It doesn't have to be beating a CP9.

The arc isn't over yet, it's just almost over. Don't whine before the movie ends.

Pardon, but I am not partial to any Straw Hat. If you dislike my "whining", perhaps you recognise the merit in my language but simply refuse to admit my ideas as a possibility because you enjoy your illusionary world of Sogeking superiority.

Facts are facts; Sogeking, despite the hype, has not entered the same league as the other Straw Hat pirates.

So he'll just do it later. What's the problem? Do you think that Usopp's going to suck for the rest of the story? This asskicking he's taken is just a prequel to his next important act.

Oh yeah, and he's always been the weakest (or tying with Nami) Strawhat. He doesn't have to beat a Sanji level opponent, he just has to prove his worth.

It's like the Shs beating by the CP9 at Water 7…only longer.

[gaara d. lucci]

Technically, couldn't the strawhats have won the fight at the mansion? Zoro was blindsided and Luffy wasn't hurt that bad. There was no break after the strawhats were beaten. Of course this is assuming that Luffy knew how to use the Gears at that point in time.

[ModernRomeo]

I said this is another thread (think it was the one about why Frankie can't join, or possible bounty requirements), but I'll just recap. WG won't completely crumble, however they're public image and infantry count will massively decrease, due to the 5k+ guys killed so far, not to mention not being able to stop pirates from invading and wreaking hell on EL. However, the WG won't spend all their time on the Mugiwara's, as Shanks and Whitebeard seemingly teaming up is something a little more important (as they've admitted).

As for the next arc and their attitudes, well they were pretty laid-back after they assimilated Crocodile and BW, and taking down a Shichibukai is no easy feat, not to mention gets the attention of unsavory people. So it's possible they'll just drift across the Grand-Line, while encountering more Marines than usual, but it won't mean they'll be serious all the time. I mean, they were pretty laid back after G8 (even though it was a filler), and they had attacked (or so it seemed) one of the more important Marine bases (or so we were told), so attacking one of the important WG outposts shouldn't be much of a step up.

[Laffite]

It sounds like Luffy's crew will be like Shanks crew. I'm pretty sure the red hair pirates are wanted pretty badly to by the world government. They still have time to party and drink on an island.

[Audity]

They aren't wanted by the WG at all, unless he does something with Whitebeard, which hasn't happened yet.

[HikaruYami]

Ahahahaaaalet me bring up one word which I saw mentioned a little before this post, but more commonly tied in with Shanks: "Whitebeard". Let's see, he's not a Shichibukai (the only self-respecting pirate who IS a shichibukai has to be the swordsman-dono), but he's on the same level as Gol D. Roger, who the WG obviously made a huge point to capture. Do you see Whitebeard with no escape? zomg, NO. That brings me to another point, this time 2 words with a letter in the middle: Gol D. Roger. Surely the WG realized before he became the pirate king that he was a serious threat to power. I mean, hell, he was a swordsman (I think, but don't bother correcting me for my benefit, because I won't look at this topic again), a fighter, an archaeologist (proven, see: Skypeia arc), I think they mentioned him being an on-par navigator at least, but I don't think he was a marksman, shipwright, chef, doctor, or musician~but yeah, he was UBER. Did he even get backed into a corner? Not until the flashback sequence in the series where we saw his head chopped off! Luffy has committed a huge offense, but like Whitebeard, Shanks, and Gol D. Roger, I don't think it'll matter, because he is strong! See: Buster Call. Oh yeah, that's this arc! I honestly think after this they can focus less on the WG (besides the Admirals, who will probably get a few fights in later in the series) and more on the way of the all-powerful pirates!

\end_rant

[Zephos]

Both Usopp and Sanji were forced into that situation by Oda. That's the corner. Sanji had two prior defining moments when he kicked arse on the Sea Train and stomached a defeat from Califa.

Usopp's defining moments were getting beaten up by Luffy, getting bashed by Blueno (twice), hiding in Oimo's hair and being "raped" by Jyabura.

That sucks. Big time.

-Or getting Robin past CP9 after beating up a government officer.
-Taking a stand against the Captain, who he has seen beat God.
-Taking out Spandam just as he was about to get Robin to the boat.
-Rallying two motherfucking Giants into charging through a government stronghold and through an entire army of marines and agents just as they were about to swarm the courthouse where the strawhats were
-Burning the World Government's flag in front of the world government
-Taking ten shigan's in the chest.

I mean christ. Usopp is the shit for an everyman character. Compare him to Nina or Farnese from Berserk, or Matahachi from Vagabond, Kuririn from Dragonball, Leorio from Hunter X Hunter, Sakura from Naruto, even Abeno Kaii from Lone Wolf and Cub as an everyman villain.

The man is actively trying, and taking more pain and being more courageous than most everymen can dream of. Most of those people are either object failures of the writer (Sakura), there to make the hero look better (Kuririn, Kaii) or just a big wopping healthy dose of pathetic ( Matahachi).

Yes folks, Matahachi of Vagabond. Estranged friend of the main character.

Has Usopp run off with a woman when Luffy was fighting to the death in a nearby house? has Usopp turned into a drunken doormat while Luffy and co. rise to the top? Has Usopp stolen a faemous persons name from thier presumed dead body and used it to get his own reputation, food, ass and shelter? Is Usopp inspired by shows of bravado or terrified/intimidated by seeing it?

Everyone who thinks Usopp is a useless wimpy character needs to read Vagabond pronto.

Facts are facts; Sogeking, despite the hype, has not entered the same league as the other Straw Hat pirates.

Which is because he's not a superpowered deus ex shonen hero. Which has everything to do with both his character, role, and likability. The day he becomes one, he dies.

[Malintex_Terek]

@onemoment:

That's not writing yourself into a corner, that's just a turn in the story. Do you really think the author couldn't think of a way to beat Jyabura?

No, it was a corner; Oda still had room to manuever out of that particular plot point, but eiter way he moved would have been bad. Had Sanji taken that fight, Usopp fans would be angry; if Usopp won, Sanji fans would be devastated.

Since Sanji is the third most popular One Piece character, he was chosen over Usopp. Let me say that if Usopp had beaten Jyabura instead of Sanji, all the Sanji fans would still be complaining but not quite as loudly, because they are totally unjustified because Sanji already had some glory.

It's like Franky taking out Nero, Fukurou, and Funkfried; total overkill, even for an awesome character like him.

@onemoment:

As for being forced into something, Usopp can still do something to prove himself useful later. It doesn't have to be beating a CP9.

Uh, at this stage of the OP theatre, it's not about use, it's about utter strength and glory. Usopp was "useful" in that he sniped Spandam and recieved a couple compliments about his shots. However, since all the Straw Hats plus Franky recieved CP9 battles and won them, Usopp's "glory' is measured against them.

He's not pulling his fair share of team weight unless he beat a CP9, despite what Sanji might have said about duty to Robin.

@onemoment:

The arc isn't over yet, it's just almost over. Don't whine before the movie ends.

It isn't whining, it's factual criticism. Oda fudged over Usopp royally.

@onemoment:

So he'll just do it later. What's the problem? Do you think that Usopp's going to suck for the rest of the story? This asskicking he's taken is just a prequel to his next important act.

Right. When was his last important "arc"? Chopper & Usopp v. Mr.4 & Ms. Merrychristmas? He got his arse handed to him handidly in that fight, too, and it's virtually two hundred chapters ago.

The progression here is Usopp getting more and more pathetic when he should be becoming more and more awesome. Sogeking was a half-step up, but he's fallen down a full flight since Jyaura wasted him.

@onemoment:

Oh yeah, and he's always been the weakest (or tying with Nami) Strawhat. He doesn't have to beat a Sanji level opponent, he just has to prove his worth.

I agree; he doesn't need a Sanji level opponent. However, he needs to have something simmilar to allow a credible comparison between his fellows and himself.

Also, until we see Kabuto's ability, I'm wagering that Nami is, offensively, one of the most powerful Straw Hat pirates right now, and certainly stronger than Usopp. She might have did stupid things in her fight with Califa, but imagine if the "cyclone" she used against Doublefinger were to be cast with her enhanced boom stick.

[KamenRiderNeko]

whatever the case, Oda can do it.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Zephos:

-Or getting Robin past CP9 after beating up a government officer.
-Taking a stand against the Captain, who he has seen beat God.
-Taking out Spandam just as he was about to get Robin to the boat.
-Rallying two motherfucking Giants into charging through a government stronghold and through an entire army of marines and agents just as they were about to swarm the courthouse where the strawhats were
-Burning the World Government's flag in front of the world government
-Taking ten shigan's in the chest.

Disregarding Usopp's inhumane damage sponge ability, all of those are trivial. Compare Franky's record with Usopp's and look at how much carnage he personally caused; heck, Franky's not even a Straw Hat yet. None of those "feats" are weight on the same scale as beating a CP9 agent. Sorry!

The Ebalf connection was a blatant deus ex machina, by the way.

@Zephos:

I mean christ. Usopp is the shit for an everyman character. Compare him to Nina or Farnese from Berserk, or Matahachi from Vagabond, Kuririn from Dragonball, Leorio from Hunter X Hunter, Sakura from Naruto, even Abeno Kaii from Lone Wolf and Cub as an everyman villain.

Krillin suffered from degradation as well; he was once one tough motherfudger, but was overshadowed by the hernia-inducing orgasmic screams better known as "Super Saiyan transformations".

In regard to the rest of those characters, they are examples of people who screw over everyone but end up getting off scott free from punishment. That's not quite comparable with Usopp; Usopp tries, gets beaten down, then disgraced but managed to accomplish some small things. Nothing major; but hey, at least Nina and Farnese got the ball rolling for the Albion ressurection. That isn't necessarily a good event, but it was "significant".

@Zephos:

The man is actively trying, and taking more pain and being more courageous than most everymen can dream of. Most of those people are either object failures of the writer (Sakura), there to make the hero look better (Kuririn, Kaii) or just a big wopping healthy dose of pathetic ( Matahachi).

What I bolded is exactly why Usopp has sucked for all W7; like Vivi, he tries but fails. It would have been better if he didn't try at all; I'd rather have had Sogeking climb to the top of the Judiciary Tower from the beginning and snipe rather than watch him getting "owned" by Jyabura.

Yes, Usopp is a coward. Yes, part of his development is to overcome that cowardice; he's done that, it's fine. He hasn't overcome his physical limitations, and in spite of his good judgement, he's still a bit thick headed.

@Zephos:

Everyone who thinks Usopp is a useless wimpy character needs to read Vagabond pronto.

Different series, different standard.

@Zephos:

Which is because he's not a superpowered deus ex shonen hero. Which has everything to do with both his character, role, and likability. The day he becomes one, he dies.

Then why is he in a superpowered deus ex shonen manga?! Usopp was always an interesting character because he started out lower on the shonen ladder than all his crewmates yet still managed to defeat comparable opponents with them; that was impressive. Usopp's development over the series' progression is supposed to showcase his evolution from a carefree dreamer from a small, safe, sleepy village to a badarse gun-flinging cigar-smoking warlord of the Grand Line. The development was going fine through Arabasta and Skypiea but it seems to have taken a couple steps backward here in Water 7.

No, I'm not talking about the Going Merry fight, which I thought was admirable. I'm talking about how Usopp is a fascade, a Straw Hat in spirit but not in body; he's almost a shabby imitation or a pretend-pirate now, as he cannot even pull his own weight when his friend's life is at stake.

This…retardation of his character, plus Sanji's blatant deus ex machina with Jyabura, are my two major disappointments of this arc (while Nami v. Califa was a diappointment for the entire series).

[onemoment]

@Malintex_Terek:

No, it was a corner; Oda still had room to manuever out of that particular plot point, but eiter way he moved would have been bad. Had Sanji taken that fight, Usopp fans would be angry; if Usopp won, Sanji fans would be devastated.

Since Sanji is the third most popular One Piece character, he was chosen over Usopp. Let me say that if Usopp had beaten Jyabura instead of Sanji, all the Sanji fans would still be complaining but not quite as loudly, because they are totally unjustified because Sanji already had some glory.

I don't think Oda sees the story the same way you do.

How do you know that Sanji is the third most popular character? I have to check the polls again, I don't think that's right.

I personally don't think that Oda will sacrifice one character for another, each characters has gotten a moment so far, even Nami has fought a CP9. I find that suscipious, and think that it just means Usopp will do something else later.

Again, the arc isn't over yet! A lot can still happen. Personally, I'm still open to the theroy that Usopp will bust one or two Buster Call ships.

Uh, at this stage of the OP theatre, it's not about use, it's about utter strength and glory. Usopp was "useful" in that he sniped Spandam and recieved a couple compliments about his shots. However, since all the Straw Hats plus Franky recieved CP9 battles and won them, Usopp's "glory' is measured against them.

He's not pulling his fair share of team weight unless he beat a CP9, despite what Sanji might have said about duty to Robin.

Well, I realize with this paragraph that's there's no pleasing you. What, saving Robin's life isn't enough glory? What about in Skypiea, he didn't beat anyone their but he did save Sanji after he got KO'd by Enel on the Maxim. Without Usopp, Sanji would be dead.

And then there's Little Garden. He didn't beat anyone there, but he did destroy the Candle set. He save Nami and Zoro's life.

And again, the arcs not over. If Usopp doesn't get to do something cool before the arc ends, then I'll be their complaining with you.

It isn't whining, it's factual criticism. Oda fudged over Usopp royally.

Sorry, I have a broad definition of whining. I just think you're complaining about the state of Usopp prematurly. Usopp's character has been degraded in Water 7, so I predict that it must be restored in Water 7.

Right. When was his last important "arc"? Chopper & Usopp v. Mr.4 & Ms. Merrychristmas? He got his arse handed to him handidly in that fight, too, and it's virtually two hundred chapters ago.

…You...

He won that fight! Why are you complaining that he got his ass handed to him in the Mr.4 fight when he won?

The progression here is Usopp getting more and more pathetic when he should be becoming more and more awesome. Sogeking was a half-step up, but he's fallen down a full flight since Jyaura wasted him.

The progression really didn't go down until Water 7, so again, I think he'll rise in this arc. So much can still happen…

I agree; he doesn't need a Sanji level opponent. However, he needs to have something simmilar to allow a credible comparison between his fellows and himself.

I fully argee. In fact, I think Sanji foreshadowed it. Each member of the crew has a role they need to forfil. Usopp saving Robin is pretty good, but not quite enough. He needs to show that his power in sniping is on par with the strength of the SHs.

Also, until we see Kabuto's ability, I'm wagering that Nami is, offensively, one of the most powerful Straw Hat pirates right now, and certainly stronger than Usopp. She might have did stupid things in her fight with Califa, but imagine if the "cyclone" she used against Doublefinger were to be cast with her enhanced boom stick.

Uh..maybe. Usopp still has more stamina by and far then Nami has. Nami shouldn't really be in the competition anyway, she'd just "angry punch" all the men down.

The Ebalf connection was a blatant deus ex machina, by the way.

What the hell…deus ex machina for what? DEM has to solve some plot problem using a weird or out there plot device. The giants just helped with the assault, frankly, Oda could have just made Galley La/Franky Family fight better to solve that.

Usopp knew some giants from Elbaf, and used that to convince those giants to help him. It makes sense to me.

People, stop throwing DEM around.

[Zephos]

Disregarding Usopp's inhumane damage sponge ability, all of those are trivial. Compare Franky's record with Usopp's and look at how much carnage he personally caused; heck, Franky's not even a Straw Hat yet. None of those "feats" are weight on the same scale as beating a CP9 agent. Sorry!

Franky is an everyman?
He's a muscle-man cyborg action figure. He's based off Popeye.
OF COURSE he's more impressive.

The Ebalf connection was a blatant deus ex machina, by the way.

No less then Gear.

Krillin suffered from degradation as well; he was once one tough motherfudger, but was overshadowed by the hernia-inducing orgasmic screams better known as "Super Saiyan transformations".

Ahn?
Kuririn was always the underdog, he had some shines during the 22nd and 23rd Budokai. But he's basically Goku's, the Red Ribbon Armies, Piccolo's, Nappa/Vegeta's, Ginyu Forces, Freeza's whipping boy.

In regard to the rest of those characters, they are examples of people who screw over everyone but end up getting off scott free from punishment. That's not quite comparable with Usopp; Usopp tries, gets beaten down, then disgraced but managed to accomplish some small things. Nothing major; but hey, at least Nina and Farnese got the ball rolling for the Albion ressurection. That isn't necessarily a good event, but it was "significant".

Usopp is tring and acheiving small victories.
While those people are confounded by trying to be something better, they want it but often are just too damned scared/lazy to do it. And some of them sure as hell get punished…Abeno Kaii gets..killed. Matahachi loses his uncle to his lies...

What I bolded is exactly why Usopp has sucked for all W7; like Vivi, he tries but fails. It would have been better if he didn't try at all; I'd rather have had Sogeking climb to the top of the Judiciary Tower from the beginning and snipe rather than watch him getting "owned" by Jyabura.

Sounds more like your letting a cynical life outlook get in the way of your judgement of Usopp. Which is like approaching superheros with facist critiscism. Maybe you can write the shonen equivalent of Watchmen? I dunno.

Yes, Usopp is a coward. Yes, part of his development is to overcome that cowardice; he's done that, it's fine. He hasn't overcome his physical limitations, and in spite of his good judgement, he's still a bit thick headed.

You want him to buff up?

Different series, different standard.

Are they so different now?
Both (Vagabond/One Piece) are about a young man (Miyamoto Musashi/Luffy) trying to be the best in a field (Swordsman/Pirate). A somewhat rash and abrasive young man with a heart of gold constantly putting everything on the line for his dream ready to die.
And both have a friend character(Matahachi/Usopp) who essentially is after the same dream in a meeker way. And is all in all worthless at it.

They're VERY comparable, ones just Seinen, ones just Shonen.

Then why is he in a superpowered deus ex shonen manga?! Usopp was always an interesting character because he started out lower on the shonen ladder than all his crewmates yet still managed to defeat comparable opponents with them; that was impressive. Usopp's development over the series' progression is supposed to showcase his evolution from a carefree dreamer from a small, safe, sleepy village to a badarse gun-flinging cigar-smoking warlord of the Grand Line. The development was going fine through Arabasta and Skypiea but it seems to have taken a couple steps backward here in Water 7.

Why? Why?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyman

No, I'm not talking about the Going Merry fight, which I thought was admirable. I'm talking about how Usopp is a fascade, a Straw Hat in spirit but not in body; he's almost a shabby imitation or a pretend-pirate now, as he cannot even pull his own weight when his friend's life is at stake.

So ask yourself. Whats more important. Spirit or Body?
Will you honestly feel good with Usopp as a buff-man?

[joekido the Second]

@onemoment:

I don't think Oda sees the story the same way you do.

How do you know that Sanji is the third most popular character? I have to check the polls again, I don't think that's right.

I personally don't think that Oda will sacrifice one character for another, each characters has gotten a moment so far, even Nami has fought a CP9. I find that suscipious, and think that it just means Usopp will do something else later.

Again, the arc isn't over yet! A lot can still happen. Personally, I'm still open to the theroy that Usopp will bust one or two Buster Call ships.

Well, I realize with this paragraph that's there's no pleasing you. What, saving Robin's life isn't enough glory? What about in Skypiea, he didn't beat anyone their but he did save Sanji after he got KO'd by Enel on the Maxim. Without Usopp, Sanji would be dead.

And then there's Little Garden. He didn't beat anyone there, but he did destroy the Candle set. He save Nami and Zoro's life.

And again, the arcs not over. If Usopp doesn't get to do something cool before the arc ends, then I'll be their complaining with you.

Sorry, I have a broad definition of whining. I just think you're complaining about the state of Usopp prematurly. Usopp's character has been degraded in Water 7, so I predict that it must be restored in Water 7.

…You...

He won that fight! Why are you complaining that he got his ass handed to him in the Mr.4 fight when he won?

The progression really didn't go down until Water 7, so again, I think he'll rise in this arc. So much can still happen...

I fully argee. In fact, I think Sanji foreshadowed it. Each member of the crew has a role they need to forfil. Usopp saving Robin is pretty good, but not quite enough. He needs to show that his power in sniping is on par with the strength of the SHs.

Uh..maybe. Usopp still has more stamina by and far then Nami has. Nami shouldn't really be in the competition anyway, she'd just "angry punch" all the men down.

What the hell...deus ex machina for what? DEM has to solve some plot problem using a weird or out there plot device. The giants just helped with the assault, frankly, Oda could have just made Galley La/Franky Family fight better to solve that.

Usopp knew some giants from Elbaf, and used that to convince those giants to help him. It makes sense to me.

People, stop throwing DEM around.

I never understood how DEM works but really I don't care about it as long as it's intersting. Usopp has proved useful many times in EL, why can't we Usopp fans be satified with it? Can't we all get along?

[Audity]

How is the Elbaf connection douche ex machina? Why do people even think of this shit when watching/reading a story like this, especially this far into the series. How many damn times is douche ex machina going to be said?

2 : a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty

Sounds pretty subjective to me. So to that I say, I never see any douche-EX machines in one piece lol.

Actually, Sanji's leg thing could be considered that maybe. Though I'd rather call it something else. Like completely dumb. How does fire do that much more damage? Maybe I'm forgetting something.

I personally don't see how Usopp falling for Jyabura's trick is all that noteworthy. He's never said "I'm a liar and I can also see through any trick or lie." But why he actually went through and made Usopp fall for such a thing makes no sense for 99% of the readers out there who can make the connection, which should be enough to make someone never take One Piece seriously again.

I don't get the factual evidence thing either. Sanji being 3rd rated on a poll persuades the author of One Piece to make a major decision in the story?

If anything having Usopp do something else amazing during this past arc would be a deus ex machina. How bout we just label things we disagree about as douche ex machinas. That won't get old at all.

[smurfx]

i don't think the strawhats are going to be all that diffrent from before. hell look at shanks everytime you see him him and his crew are always relaxing and you don't see marines going after them. that's probably because he and his crew probably defeated many of what the world goverment threw at them and the same will go for luffy and his crew. i think the next couple of arcs will deal with the world goverment sending some of they're strongest after the strawhats and then they defeating them and their bounty's just getting higher and higher until they get the same type of respect that the world goverment seems to have for whitebeard and shanks. also with shanks declaring that he's ready to go to war with the world goverment over his meeting with whitebeard then the world goverment is going to have shanks to fear again so that will draw off some heat from luffy and his crew too. i think by the time the strawhats reach the half way point of the grandline they will be known as a powerful pirate crew and they won't really have that many marines going after them.

[Aldrich]

@Audity:

I don't get the factual evidence thing either. Sanji being 3rd rated on a poll persuades the author of One Piece to make a major decision in the story?

You do know Oda, like all manga authors, is supervised by a bunch of editors from Shueisha who more or less decide what will be published or not? And they do these characters popularity polls for something.

[onemoment]

Well, is Sanji 3rd rated in the polls? No offense to Sanji fans, but that doesn't sound right to me.

[Aldrich]

Yeah, he is constantly ranked in the top 3. Same reason why Sasuke is so highly rated in Naruto polls despite being one of the most hatable fictional characters in history; fangirls.

[Malintex_Terek]

Bastards! I've been drawn into more moot arguing. ~.~;

@onemoment:

I don't think Oda sees the story the same way you do.

Huh. So, who gets to fight Jyabura?

@onemoment:

How do you know that Sanji is the third most popular character? I have to check the polls again, I don't think that's right.

It's right. Character poll from a while back; Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Usopp, Nami. Franky was like #18.

@onemoment:

I personally don't think that Oda will sacrifice one character for another, each characters has gotten a moment so far, even Nami has fought a CP9. I find that suscipious, and think that it just means Usopp will do something else later.

Again, the arc isn't over yet! A lot can still happen. Personally, I'm still open to the theroy that Usopp will bust one or two Buster Call ships.

Well, people were complaining about a lack of development in Skypiea, so most of the angst about Usopp has been carried over (Sanji and Chopper, who "reverted" in Skypiea, took several leaps foreward here in Enies Lobby).

Taking out one or two Buster Call ships seems too small; he needs to destroy them all to regain some glory.

@onemoment:

Well, I realize with this paragraph that's there's no pleasing you. What, saving Robin's life isn't enough glory? What about in Skypiea, he didn't beat anyone their but he did save Sanji after he got KO'd by Enel on the Maxim. Without Usopp, Sanji would be dead.

Skypiea was a different ballpark, an "extra-credit" round earned by romping through Arabasta. And, no, saving Robin's life isn't enough glory.

That's like telling the waterboy on a football team he did a good job by freshening up the linebackers when they were dying of thirst and heat.

@onemoment:

And then there's Little Garden. He didn't beat anyone there, but he did destroy the Candle set. He save Nami and Zoro's life.

Little Garden was a Luffy arc. Water 7/Enies Lobby is a Franky/Robin/Sogeking arc. Accomplishing something that helps in a small way rather than a big one during a featured arc is not acceptable.

And the Strawhats are always saving each other's lives. Luffy saved Usopp in Skypiea, Chopper saves Usopp virtually every day.

@onemoment:

And again, the arcs not over. If Usopp doesn't get to do something cool before the arc ends, then I'll be their complaining with you.

OK.

@onemoment:

Sorry, I have a broad definition of whining. I just think you're complaining about the state of Usopp prematurly. Usopp's character has been degraded in Water 7, so I predict that it must be restored in Water 7.

Reasonable.

@onemoment:

…You...

He won that fight! Why are you complaining that he got his ass handed to him in the Mr.4 fight when he won?

He and Chopper won; Usopp emerged from that fight a walking corpse covered head to toe in bandages. Chopper was a little roughed up; considering he was tag-teaming that fight and that was what happened when he won, Usopp's losses must be tear jerking.

@onemoment:

People, stop throwing DEM around.

That's my line. ;D

…

Anyway, I say so because it's too convinent. Those were the second giants introduced in the series; we didn't know about Saul then, so expecting some relation between Oimo, Kaashi, Dorry and Broggy seems a bit far-fetched, especially since they are NOT featured in the Dorry/Broggy flashback.

Another example of a deus ex would be Usopp's invention of the Clima-Tact back in Arabasta. We knew Usopp could build things, but to construct a toy that could fire heat/cold bubbles and produce party toys is outrageous. The Perfect Clima-Tact is understandable because of the dial technology, but the first is from left field.

[Skewt]

Nyuaggh….I think I'm going to have an aneurysm from reading this crap. At least have the decency to let this go till the arc is over and you can go back over it in it's entirety. Even the people with the best intentions in this thread (and most of the past spoiler threads) come off as complete asses on both side of the argument.

[onemoment]

Well, now for something else entirely..

Someone said early that they saw Spandam with his eyes open? I didn't see it in those images, but wouldn't that be crazy?

[Skewt]

this page does seem to have a faint eye after being crushed.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Skewt:

Nyuaggh….I think I'm going to have an aneurysm from reading this crap. At least have the decency to let this go till the arc is over and you can go back over it in it's entirety. Even the people with the best intentions in this thread (and most of the past spoiler threads) come off as complete asses on both side of the argument.

No offense, but I despise posts like these. "Blah blah blah, I have my own opinions and I get pissed off whenever someone challenges them, even though I go and read their arguments of my own volition and I have no obligation to refrain from reading said challenges, so I'll just complain instead".

I get, like, fifty of these whenever I say something on ANN. "Nya nya nya he's a basher, dun listen 2 him m'kay listen 2 me caus i think like u do". It's bloody annoying it is.

@Zephos:

Franky is an everyman?
He's a muscle-man cyborg action figure. He's based off Popeye.
OF COURSE he's more impressive.

He's not a Straw Hat. Pell and Chaka, for all their awesomeness, didn't measure up to the Straw Hats; neither did Wiper and his Shandian invasion force, or even Gun Fall.

Whether or not he'll be a Straw Hat tomorrow does not change that he is no Straw Hat today.

@Zephos:

No less then Gear.

Yeah, Gear 2 came out of Luffy's arse, but Oda came up with a decent explanation for it. Gear 3 had three foreshadowing instances as well as an inspirational move (Gomu Gomu no Balloon) for it, so I would argue it's not a deus ex machina.

That doesn't change, though, that Ebalf connection was a deus ex.

@Zephos:

Ahn?
Kuririn was always the underdog, he had some shines during the 22nd and 23rd Budokai. But he's basically Goku's, the Red Ribbon Armies, Piccolo's, Nappa/Vegeta's, Ginyu Forces, Freeza's whipping boy.

If I remember right, Krillin and Goku were both impressive fighters during and up to the 21st Budokai; he wasn't present during the RR saga (can't remember) but put up a decent fight against Tien(?); and, of course, he was dead immediately followin that tournament and was gone until the 23rd Budokai.

However, in DBZ all characters not named Goku were eventually stiffed, so it's unfair to cite Krillin in that instance.

@Zephos:

Sounds more like your letting a cynical life outlook get in the way of your judgement of Usopp. Which is like approaching superheros with facist critiscism. Maybe you can write the shonen equivalent of Watchmen? I dunno.

Two notes.

1. Cynical? Possibly, but I see nothing wrong with that sort of perspective.
2. It's immature to make a reference to something I do not know about. Yes, I know about some manga, but you're going to need to either link me to a source where I can read about "Watchmen" or give some background.

@Zephos:

You want him to buff up?

I'd rather he actually succeed against another immensely powerful opponent.

@Zephos:

Are they so different now?
Both (Vagabond/One Piece) are about a young man (Miyamoto Musashi/Luffy) trying to be the best in a field (Swordsman/Pirate). A somewhat rash and abrasive young man with a heart of gold constantly putting everything on the line for his dream ready to die.
And both have a friend character(Matahachi/Usopp) who essentially is after the same dream in a meeker way. And is all in all worthless at it.

They're VERY comparable, ones just Seinen, ones just Shonen.

OK.

@Zephos:

Why? Why?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyman

Usopp wasn't originally an everyman, he became one. That's part of his development! He's already set a goal as "great warrior of the sea", which, if I do say so myself, implies he's going to need to evolve from an everyman into an incredibly powerful monster ("powerful" not implying "physical strength"). So far, he's still at step two.

@Skewt:

So ask yourself. Whats more important. Spirit or Body?
Will you honestly feel good with Usopp as a buff-man?

BODY. Another "Straw Hat" in spirit alone would be Vivi, and heaven knows I'm glad I saw the last of her in Arabasta.

[Skewt]

I have a problem with your BS because you people turn every thread into a fucking Usopp thread. Re-read the original post, what does that have to do with Usopps development within this arc. Not a god damn thing, but people such as yourself seem to turn every thread into the same topic.

All it seems to take is a "they painted Usopp into a corner" and we get another Usopp clone topic. I think everyone is tired of the topic but some people just won't let it go. Your stupid quote trees arguing every single point of someone else's post with some overly abrupt counterpoint does nothing but spark more useless bickering and more of the same back and forth.

Yes, try to destroy my integrity by turning my words into a bunch of babble of your own design so you can dismiss my views. Stop putting yourself on this high horse, just because you disagree with how Usopp has been handled, doesn't make you a martyr for his cause. I'm happy with how the arc has developed both character wise and plot wise. You're just making a mountain out of a molehill.

[joekido the Second]

@Skewt:

I have a problem with your BS because you people turn every thread into a fucking Usopp thread. Re-read the original post, what does that have to do with Usopps development within this arc. Not a god damn thing, but people such as yourself seem to turn every thread into the same topic.

All it seems to take is a "they painted Usopp into a corner" and we get another Usopp clone topic. I think everyone is tired of the topic but some people just won't let it go. Your stupid quote trees arguing every single point of someone else's post with some overly abrupt counterpoint does nothing but spark more useless bickering and more of the same back and forth.

Yes, try to destroy my integrity by turning my words into a bunch of babble of your own design so you can dismiss my views. Stop putting yourself on this high horse, just because you disagree with how Usopp has been handled, doesn't make you a martyr for his cause. I'm happy with how the arc has developed both character wise and plot wise. You're just making a mountain out of a molehill.

Wow, just wow. Your talking like how I talked against Erket in another thread and you what the mods did? They warned me. Just ignore the arguments here. Some Usopp fans are still not happy with the way Usopp develop in this arc, they wanted him to go what they predicate:

(In the warehouse, after Kaku sank the ship)

Me(really me): Usopp! Beat up Kaku!

(Next chapter, Usopp is bandled up while Kaku is unharmed)

Me: Shoot

(Later, the SHP enters Justice Tower)

Me: Beat up Kaku! Usopp!

(Sogeking enters Jabura's room)

Me: "Groan"

(Jabura woke up and prepares to fight)

Me: Usopp! Beat him up!

(Kaku crash through the ciling with Zoro)

Me: WHY ODA!!??

(Now it's time to fight Kaku and Jabura with Zoro, Usopp huh? Where's Usopp?)

Me: "LOL" He's hiding behind the cabinet! "LOLOLOLOL"

(After the misadventures with the handcuffs, Zoro and Usopp becomes free)

Me: Now fight Jabura! Usopp!

(The fight want on for a few panels before getting 10 shigunned, nearly killing Usopp. But wait! Sanji saved Usopp and took over for him!)

Sanji fans: AH HA! I knew it!

Usopp fans: Nooooo…..

Me: ..... Damnit! Why do I bother predicating? Whoa, now I'm whinning.

(But wait! Sanji says "Go do what you can do and I'll do what you cannot do". The word inspires Usopp! Later he snipes up Spandam, keeping him from taking Robin; giving time for Franky to catch up!)

Me: Okay so that's useful but why is some Usopp fan still clutching their fist in anger?

I guess ever since the Luffy Vs. Usopp fight, Usopp fans think that for Usopp to rejoin the crew; he has to beat a strong enemies to prove his worth.

But they forgot that if Usopp fought Jabura, that would give him the reason to quit the crew, and Robin would have been long gone. Usopp proved his worth already; He turned two Elubafan giants on his side, he burned the WG flag and he delayed Spandam's time. This shows that he does not have to prove his worth through fighting but through his actions.

Usopp already wanted to rejoin the crew, that's why he dressed up as Sogeking because he does not want to show up to Luffy out of the blue and say: Luffy! I'm back! After going through an embarressing decision to quit the crew which would hurt the relationship between Luffy and Usopp even more.

If he does not want to rejoin the crew, then he could have jumped off the Sea Train to swim away which he did not do. He lost his ship and he has nothing left to protect so he decided to go with his friends again to redeem himself

Remamber, the whole argument between Luffy and Usopp was not about who's strong or who's weak; it's about leaving an weak person behind and Usopp tried to defend his ship by choosing to duel Luffy. Usopp thought Luffy wanted to leave behind the weak, Usopp saw the ship like a person with flesh and blood and believes the ship was weak but should never be left behind.

That was the entire point of the duel, it's was never because Usopp was weak, it was to SAVE the weak.

Now that Kaku (thankfully) sank the ship and had nothing left to fight, he knew why he fought Luffy, without the ship; his whole "staying behind to defand the weak" point was gone so now his olny thing left to fight for was helping Luffy and his co. save Robin and his has helped many times. That is who Usopp is, he duty is to help and protect, not to become an musclehead.

We should be happy that Usopp is still with his friends, we should be thankful that he did not swim away.

[Malintex_Terek]

@Skewt:

I have a problem with your BS because you people turn every thread into a fucking Usopp thread. Re-read the original post, what does that have to do with Usopps development within this arc. Not a god damn thing, but people such as yourself seem to turn every thread into the same topic.

1. I've been gone for six months.
2. Do not curse.
3. You've justified my point in full.

@Skewt:

All it seems to take is a "they painted Usopp into a corner" and we get another Usopp clone topic. I think everyone is tired of the topic but some people just won't let it go. Your stupid quote trees arguing every single point of someone else's post with some overly abrupt counterpoint does nothing but spark more useless bickering and more of the same back and forth.

Do NOT complain, either ignore or rebuttle back. It takes two people to spark an argument. If all you can do is complain about a valid argument, that breaks AP's rule against bashin/flaming/trolling.

If you "can't help but respond" there's obviously some compelling reason for you to complain. I cannot truely discern what that rationale might be, but I suspect it is because I have a valid argument on my platter.

@Skewt:

Yes, try to destroy my integrity by turning my words into a bunch of babble of your own design so you can dismiss my views.

What "views"? I just see a green-toed troll who needs to have his nails clipped.

@Skewt:

Stop putting yourself on this high horse, just because you disagree with how Usopp has been handled, doesn't make you a martyr for his cause.

I disagreed civily and supported my arguments with evidence from the manga. If you object to my tone, you're not better than the idiots who convicted Scott Peterson in that publicised sham of a trial. When asked to comment on their verdict, the people said, "oh, he didn't cry when they showed pictures of his dead wife", or "he never looked sad", thereby certifying that any man who looks serious in court must be guilty of first degree murder.

@Skewt:

I'm happy with how the arc has developed both character wise and plot wise. You're just making a mountain out of a molehill.

No, I'm totally justified in pointing out how Usopp has become a joke. I could easily argue that, aside from Usopp, none of the Straw Hat Pirates have had "character development" at all; they've been perfect from when they were first introduced.

Robin too. She had to take a step down to create "development", and when this arc is finished, she'll be right back where she was in Jaya/Skypiea/Longland.

[Elric]

Never would have thought to encounter another usopp debate in this thread, this is so weird^^

OnTopic:

It seems terrible, the crew has still a long way ahead of them but things start getting out of control kind of early and i don't think shanks and whitebeard will be considered a matter of similar importance as the enies lobby "incident"^^.

At least not for the moment but who knows what those two are up to and how much the gov knows about it, so i'm just guessing.

BUT I too think they can stay cheerful because the WG is already in itself divided an the strawhats can/will enforce discord.

They are very charismatic and can/will drag important characters, even whole countries on their side.

Alabaster for example will obviously not support any actions taken against the strawhats and as more people (and hopefully influential ones^^) get to know the crew better it will get more support.

Maybe/hopefully even from some members of the navy/WG itself.

Smoker (and tashigi) is surely a candidate for desertion

Of course there is also a good chance forces like the shichibukai will start to rebel and regain full independance at the first sign of weakness shown by the marine/WG.

In the end the actions of the strawhats (especially robin and what she learns about the true history) will have transformed the whole world goverment and therefore the whole world itself.

It would be kind of uncool^^ if they weren't wanted criminals anymore but at least small islands shouldn't be afraid of being bustercalled for hosting the crew

[Leaf Cable]

O_O So much hostility. I'll never engage in a debate over Usopp again. Quite frankly, Oda is very unpredictable with his story. I'm personally satisfied with Usopp but will be expected one last hurrah for this arc. It would be cool if he took part in the destruction of the Buster Call! That would be fine for me. I like Usopp, but he's not my only favorite character. For that matter, it is just a comic. Yeesh…
On topic: I'm sure Oda has new ideas. However, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole World Government Saga gave Oda some temporary writer's block. He has outdone himself by making this Saga so long!
As far as the whole character development thing goes, it seems like more of the minor characters and former villains get more it than the Straw Hats. Then again, it's seems as though shonen manga aren't meant to be literary masterpieces.
Just my opinion folks! It's not truth, fact, or written in stone! I'm neutral in this!

[Audity]

You just piss some people off is all. What are you even arguing? This and that and this and that and this and that CONSTANTLY. There's no end to it. Have more introduction and conclusion paragraphs instead of Quote Crappy remark Quote Crappy remark etc. for the rest of eternity. Where's your point? Are you ever going to be done posting in the thread? Are you human? You might benefit from making your own thread, or posting in the current chapter thread.

=D

[Le Lawliet]

Audity: No flaming.

[Zephos]

If I remember right, Krillin and Goku were both impressive fighters during and up to the 21st Budokai; he wasn't present during the RR saga (can't remember) but put up a decent fight against Tien(?); and, of course, he was dead immediately followin that tournament and was gone until the 23rd Budokai.

Goku made him look pathetic during the training and 21st Budokai. Kuririn even cheated to get that rock. During the RR arc he got his ass beat up by General Blue.

However, in DBZ all characters not named Goku were eventually stiffed, so it's unfair to cite Krillin in that instance.

Its that unlike Tenshinhan,Yamcha, and co. kuririn shows simialer personality traits to the everyman archetype, while Tenshinhan and the others still act like badasses even though they're in the .1% of thier saiyen buddies power.

1. Cynical? Possibly, but I see nothing wrong with that sort of perspective.

But in discussing One Piece?…aye. It goes against the theme.

2. It's immature to make a reference to something I do not know about. Yes, I know about some manga, but you're going to need to either link me to a source where I can read about "Watchmen" or give some background.

Immature on whose part? Watchmen was friggin featured on Wikipedia's main page today, it was on Time magazines greatest 100 novels of the past century….its hardly an obscure reference...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen

Usopp wasn't originally an everyman, he became one. That's part of his development! He's already set a goal as "great warrior of the sea", which, if I do say so myself, implies he's going to need to evolve from an everyman into an incredibly powerful monster ("powerful" not implying "physical strength"). So far, he's still at step two.

He was always an everyman.
I honestly can't say Iv'e ever expected him to become an incredibly powerful monster. His little victories mean more then an unrealistic monster growth.

BODY. Another "Straw Hat" in spirit alone would be Vivi, and heaven knows I'm glad I saw the last of her in Arabasta.

A strawhat in body could be Arlong, Ener, Mr.1, Luchi even…
Spirit really is the most important factor.

[Zephos]

@Audity:

You just piss some people off is all. What are you even arguing? This and that and this and that and this and that CONSTANTLY. There's no end to it. Have more introduction and conclusion paragraphs instead of Quote Crappy remark Quote Crappy remark etc. for the rest of eternity. Where's your point? Are you ever going to be done posting in the thread? Are you human? You might benefit from making your own thread, or posting in the current chapter thread.

Its the best way to debate. How is a big paragraph under a big paragraph better? Does he have to guess which sentence a certain sentence of mine is referring to?
This is the ideal internet debate format. And BELIEVE me on that.

And quite frankly I'm having fun. I'm sure Terik is too.
Conflicts are like fires, they warm you up. Too few and you freeze to death.