Square-Enix Sells out?

Taleran

Originally Posted by Joystiq
It looks like Square Enix is taking a page from the book fo PC game development. Speaking at a gathering of third-party executives yesterday, Square Enix president Yoichi Wada discussed the bonuses, from a business perspective, of consoles always being online. Here are the three main points he mentioned:

Trial chapters: This is a feature that will actually benefit gamers. Wada mentioned a system where gamers could download the first chapter of a game and pay for later installments, a la episodic content.

In-game advertising: Wada discussed how ads could now be placed in games that aren't online-centric. While you may think Square Enix would never put real-life product placement in Final Fantasy XIII, keep in mind that Cloud Strife used a very real cell phone in Advent Children

Software updates: While Wada, who is not a native English speaker, did not use the word "patch" explicitly, he did discuss how developers can now cut back on time spent debugging and just patch a game later. Patching is a slippery slope and initial release bugs, such as the many found in Oblivion, can really destroy a gaming experience. Especially if we are already paying $60 or more for the title.

Let's hope Square Enix does not get too hell-bent on in-game ads and patching. I do not want to wait a few months because my Toyota Chocobo got stuck halfway through a wall and now I can't continue my game.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/07/square-enix-talks-in-game-ads-patching/

just what we all wanted the 2 'BEST' features of PC games to invade the consoles

sigh….....

and this just in the title for the next FF game

Final Fantasy XIV: The Quest for the More Refreshing Soft Drink

Caracal

@Taleran:

Final Fantasy XIV: The Quest for the More Refreshing Soft Drink

I.e. the FFXII potion.

As for them selling out, I can't say I care. I don't think I would have noticed.

Bounty1Berry

Frankly, my respect for them has gone down a lot.

I worshipped FF2 and FF3 on the SNES.

FF7 was impressive enough that I could forgive its showstopping reliability problems on PC.

But I finally played FF6 through and found the lead villian disturbingly underdeveloped. And the less said about FF5, the better. The balance is way off and the plot is jerky and lame.

I could care less what happens to the next FF.

Cap'n Carter

…I don't really see anything too wrong about that, except for the ingame advertising (which isn't exactly new) and saying that "less time can be spent on debugging a game when it can just be fixed later." Why can't they do their best the first time and improve and patch it as time goes on? Being able to patch a game is definitely a plus to online consoles.

I think this is just overreaction.

Greg

? I'm perplexed by the hooplah over this. It's nothing new. Should we boycott Metal Gear Solid 3 for having Electronic Gaming Monthly mags?

Bounty1Berry

It's a matter of context.

In a game where the setting is the US 2006, yes, fine, have the people drink Coke and eat McDonald's.

The problem is there's no clean way to build advertising into a different setting. And most of the games Square-Enix has made their name in are that sort of setting. It's like if Oda decided to have Rob Lucci chug a Diet Pepsi before smacking Luffy around.

Captain Kuro

@Bounty1Berry:

I worshipped FF2 and FF3 on the SNES.

But I finally played FF6 through and found the lead villian disturbingly underdeveloped.

You do know that FF3 for SNES is the exact same game as FF6 don't you? I'm sure everyone knows all about that already, but I just want to make sure.

Or were you talking about NES FF3 (which didn't get an official english release as far as I know - but will get a DS version soon).

And the less said about FF5, the better. The balance is way off and the plot is jerky and lame.

FF5 was awesome. Gilgamesh ruled. I didn't think the plot was bad (or any worse than SNES FF2/4). I really can't choose between 4, 5, or 6 as my favorite - excluding FFT (although 6 is probably barely in the lead).

Ruwyn

Wow. This really isn't groundbreaking at all. I mean aren't they doing this sort of thing on X-box Live? Like buying that horse dealie in Oblivion or new GRAW maps for instance. Advertising in games? I recall a racing game (I think) in which one of the items you needed to collect were those little autonomous vacuum robots. So Squeeeeeeeeenix wants to make more money, whatever.

They haven't been getting my money for years. Last thing I bought from them was FFT:A. Huge disappointment for me because it was so watered down.

stephen

huge LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL at this thread title.

captain usopp

@Bounty1Berry:

I worshipped FF2 and FF3 on the SNES.
But I finally played FF6 through And the less said about FF5, the better.

SNES 2 & 3= 5 & 6 already explained; Your totaly entitled to your opinion, but 5 and 6 were the most popular FF games for a long time.

As for the advertising thing, I don't care. In fact, I think it's fun to find these things hidden in games. Just as long as they don't overdo it, and forse stuff in there that does not belong. Just like Bounty was saying before.

Local-chan

Hmmm it doesn't make any difference to me, its not exactly gonna affect the game as a whole (unless they intentionally put bugs in) and as long as it aint something stupid (lets say advertising Dell computers in Dragon Quest or something)

If you guys dun like it, don't buy the games.

Greg

It's a matter of context.

In a game where the setting is the US 2006, yes, fine, have the people drink Coke and eat McDonald's.

Well, Metal Gear Solid 3 took place in the 1960's so…

And check out Cloud's cell from AC. It's a Docomo clearly with I-Mode. Besides, SE makes a lot of other games too, not just FF.

It's funny you mention Coke actually......

"Eat this!!!! SUPER NANO IRONY BEEEEEEEEEEEAM!"

And is it really 'selling out'? It helps reduce costs and that can help bring us better games.

Captain Kuro

@captain:

SNES 2 & 3= 5 & 6 already explained; Your totaly entitled to your opinion, but 5 and 6 were the most popular FF games for a long time.

Well, SNES FF2 is really FF4.

FF5 didn't get an official english release until the Playstation version.

(Can't wait for the GBA versions of 5 and 6 though - supposedely, they are getting english versions)

myogatheflea

@stephen:

huge LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL at this thread title.

My thoughts exactly.

UPRC

@Bounty1Berry:

But I finally played FF6 through and found the lead villian disturbingly underdeveloped.

?!?

Play it again. Pay attention. o_o

Cap'n Carter

Maybe he only played partway and thinks that Gestahl is the villain.

Bounty1Berry

@Captain:

You do know that FF3 for SNES is the exact same game as FF6 don't you? I'm sure everyone knows all about that already, but I just want to make sure.

Yes, I'm just calling it what it was called on the cartridge.

FF5 was awesome. Gilgamesh ruled. I didn't think the plot was bad (or any worse than SNES FF2/4). I really can't choose between 4, 5, or 6 as my favorite - excluding FFT (although 6 is probably barely in the lead).

My problem with FF5 is primarily with the Jobs system.

A single fixed class per character (a la FF6) works well, but with FF5's arrangement, you can end up with (like in my party) a weak blue mage with weak red mage abilities, who can neither fight well, nor cast any strong spells.

And I guess I couldn't take it seriously when I found out

! A major villian's name was X-Death. Xtreeeeme! Does he skateboard and kill?

I also found the characters a bit soap-operay:

! The princess as long lost sister to the pirate, the pirate who doesn't let on she's a woman immediately, the amnesiac…

And as for FF6

! Kefka was one-dimensional. All he wanted was destruction. Not even to create a new world from the ashes, not to punish some percieved wrong, not even seemingly to create himself as an intimidating figure (he didn't seem all that interested in his own cult). Even Arlong was capable of packaging his hatred into a productive strategy. Who was it in the game who said something along the lines of "if we destroy everything, who will remain to worship us?" Possibly Gestahl?

Cap'n Carter

If you have a problem with the jobs system, frankly, you just suck. You can make some incredibly powerful combination with the job system.

Kefka wanted godhood. The speech he gave before/after the final battle was nothing short of awesome.

Bounty1Berry

But once you got to godhood, there was nothing there. He didn't want to be god to accomplish anything, just to create a void to hover in forever. He could have just locked himself in the basement for the same effect.

Captain Kuro

If used correctly, the job system in FF5 could make your characters insanely powerful. You just needed to put some effort into it.

I forgot the exact combination, but there was a setup involving Redx2 (and the Mime class) that was awesome.

Also regarding the villain of FF5: It's very lame to judge a villain by his name. And I didn't think his name was that funny actually. It makes a lot of sense.

As for Kefka…I thought it was as good a goal as any.

Buccaneer

Whatever I used to call "selling out," I now call "making money."

Greg

Whatever I used to call "selling out," I now call "making money."

Yeah. That's what usually happens when you become old enough to realize:

"Oh yeeeeeah. You need to make money to do stuff."

Bounty1Berry

The problem is that it's a "short-termist" view of the world.

The actions fans call "selling out" are usually a matter of mortgaging their long-term respectability for short-term revenue. Would you buy a second record from a band who followed up their first album by singing a hot dog jingle on a commercial? Would you buy a second game after they proved they couldn't do ads gracefully in the first? If they keep their percieved integrity and keep doing quality work, they'll end up better rewarded in the long term.

Square-Enix should be praising whatever gods they worship for the fanbase they have now, which is honestly a "follow to the grave" fanbase. I've bought unknown RPG-style titles from them (Threads of Fate) assuming "well, it's a Square product, it's probably decent" after being exposed to FF6 and FF7. Why risk it?

One minor criticism of FF6:

! After you transition to the World of Ruin, the plot runs a bit thin. You can choose to do several optional side quests, but there's poor explanation of how to trigger many of them, and you frankly end up sitting trying to find if there's anything you're supposed to do before going in for the finale.

myogatheflea

I don't see what the big problem with FF6 is. It's a fucking classic, get over it.

loulou

Square-Enix are definitely the Disney of video games. They once made great games and won the hearts of gamers everywhere. Now the original creative teams are disappearing and bad decisions are running their franchise into the ground. Seriously, was I the only one rolling my eyes when they announced the three unrelated FFXIII games (one for the mobile phone!) and promising a decade or two of more FFXIII games even though they haven't even released the bloody game(s) yet??

@Bounty1Berry:

And as for FF6

! Kefka was one-dimensional. All he wanted was destruction. Not even to create a new world from the ashes, not to punish some percieved wrong, not even seemingly to create himself as an intimidating figure (he didn't seem all that interested in his own cult). Even Arlong was capable of packaging his hatred into a productive strategy. Who was it in the game who said something along the lines of "if we destroy everything, who will remain to worship us?" Possibly Gestahl?

This is what I wrote on an LJ about a week ago:

But then again, I think Kefka (Final Fantasy VI) was a great villain because he had absolutely no compassion, killed indiscriminately, backstabbed, etc. And he actually achieved god-like powers and ruined the world. There were no reasons behind his actions except that he thought life was pointless and wanted to destroy for his own amusement. To some this might seem cliche and two-dimensional, but does one need detailed back-story, justified reasons etc. in order to be a good villain? I don't think so. Kefka was just insane, that's all.

Taleran

so it seems people are fine with them releasing non debugged games then once the fans who bought the game report the bugs, they release a patch. Isn't that one of good features of consoles that the companies do all the debugging b4 releasing the game so the fans don't need to worry about it

UPRC

@loulou:

Kefka was just insane, that's all.

His theme song backs that up rather well.

Solar Knight

@Teleran:

so it seems people are fine with them releasing non debugged games then once the fans who bought the game report the bugs, they release a patch. Isn't that one of good features of consoles that the companies do all the debugging b4 releasing the game so the fans don't need to worry about it

ahem

@Cap'n:

…I don't really see anything too wrong about that, except for the ingame advertising (which isn't exactly new) and saying that "less time can be spent on debugging a game when it can just be fixed later." Why can't they do their best the first time and improve and patch it as time goes on? Being able to patch a game is definitely a plus to online consoles.

I think this is just overreaction.

One a similar note, that Coke commercial was pretty amusing.

Cap'n Carter

@Buccaneer:

Whatever I used to call "selling out," I now call "making money."

I'm the same way. I'm thankful for my school having economics as a required class, because it made me realize that the main, #1 reason people form companies is to make money.

@Taleran:

so it seems people are fine with them releasing non debugged games then once the fans who bought the game report the bugs, they release a patch. Isn't that one of good features of consoles that the companies do all the debugging b4 releasing the game so the fans don't need to worry about it

Ever play Banjo-Tooie or DK64? Those games were bugged to high hell.

@Bounty1Berry:

After you transition to the World of Ruin, the plot runs a bit thin. You can choose to do several optional side quests, but there's poor explanation of how to trigger many of them, and you frankly end up sitting trying to find if there's anything you're supposed to do before going in for the finale.

First, putting things in a game from over 10 years ago in spoiler tags is kind of unnecessary, especially if it's something as widely played as FF6.

Second, I agree with you on this. I've always had a problem with how all over the place the game became in the WoR, and how bumpy the transition was. It could be said that the plot reflects the state of the world, but still. This and the tedious dungeons (PHOENIX CAVE) have always been what kept FF6 from being a super best friend favorite of mine.

Greg

The actions fans call "selling out" are usually a matter of mortgaging their long-term respectability for short-term revenue.

Okay but I'm not going to buy a game because it has a product in it…

Would you buy a second record from a band who followed up their first album by singing a hot dog jingle on a commercial?

?

If they were a good band why wouldn't I?

Would you buy a second game after they proved they couldn't do ads gracefully in the first?

What does that have anything to do with product placement? A good game that's a good game has nothing to do with with it has a vending machine in it or not.

Bounty1Berry

@Cap'n:

First, putting things in a game from over 10 years ago in spoiler tags is kind of unnecessary, especially if it's something as widely played as FF6.

Well, I only recently finally put serious effort into it and worked through it, so I figure there may be some people who haven't seen it and don't want to be spoiled.

Second, I agree with you on this. I've always had a problem with how all over the place the game became in the WoR, and how bumpy the transition was. It could be said that the plot reflects the state of the world, but still. This and the tedious dungeons (PHOENIX CAVE) have always been what kept FF6 from being a super best friend favorite of mine.

I think the early chapters promise very big and it's probably exceedingly difficult to hold it up for a full 30-50 hours.

I think it's very important to ensure the game is written in a way where you can clearly tell what's next, otherwhise you might spend hours wandering non-active places, or just give up for lack of threads, or worst of all, do things in wrong order.

@Greg:

What does that have anything to do with product placement? A good game that's a good game has nothing to do with with it has a vending machine in it or not.

Good product placement is hard to do. It has to fit well into the plot and not be excessively agressive. Conversely, you're being told by your sponsor to make the placement obvious so people will pay attention. The balance is difficult to strike, and it could spoil a game. Even if it doesn't ruin a game, when you're someone like Square-Enix with a huge reputation for good games (or at least good storytelling, see previous beefs about FF7 crashes), the expectations are very high, so even a "slight irritation" from ads costs you more than another developer might.

[edit- added new rant]
It's rather like a comment someone made about how we have different expectations from Viz than from 4kids when it comes to OP– Square-Enix has already proven that they have the talent to do a quality game, so we would have extremely high expectations for them to handle in-game ads right, and those expectations are likely to be easily crushed.

wolfwood

@Buccaneer:

Whatever I used to call "selling out," I now call "making money."

arent those two basicly the same thing ?

im gonna side with the ones that dont see what all the ruckus is about product placement doesnt bother me unless it gets way outta hand and turns into a FF revolving around the choosen heros trying to find the legendary golden arch of mcdonalds whilst weilding might coca cola swords but that aint gonna happen..

and also patches are a damn good thing me thinks.

Ramza

@Captain:

FF5 was awesome. Gilgamesh ruled. I didn't think the plot was bad (or any worse than SNES FF2/4). I really can't choose between 4, 5, or 6 as my favorite - excluding FFT (although 6 is probably barely in the lead).

FFT is my favourite game

Captain Kuro

@Ramza:

FFT is my favourite game

Yeah, FFT rules.