Rock, Paper, Logia

Daz

No, it showed that when in contact with kairouseki Enel can't control his powers anymore, he was in his human, flesh made form when Wiper caught him and couldn't turn into lightning which led to him nearly dying from the reject blow.

Ah, I thought you meant the "restart" scene. It's a good point, but I think of it this way: In their default forms, the logia power negates all physical attacks, yet not physical interaction. I mean, it's not like whitebeards hand would pass through Ace if he patted him on the back, or like Croc can't hold onto a cigar.
By the same note, Wipers grab didn't pass through because it wasn't an attack. It did no damage. However, it was a setup for an attack, which did damage because of the seastone, as you say.

Masta D.

@The:

Ah, I thought you meant the "restart" scene. It's a good point, but I think of it this way: In their default forms, the logia power negates all physical attacks, yet not physical interaction. I mean, it's not like whitebeards hand would pass through Ace if he patted him on the back, or like Croc can't hold onto a cigar.
By the same note, Wipers grab didn't pass through because it wasn't an attack. It did no damage. However, it was a setup for an attack, which did damage because of the seastone, as you say.

The Wiper scene proves that logias have to activate their powers wether you like it or not, and that is final. When Luffy was underwater, his body stayed rubber; although he couldn't control it. The same thing would happen to Buggy and Daz Bones. That proves paramecias can catch logias, who need to focus to stay in their elemental forms, off guard. You've lost in this area.

Except Franky directly states "my back is my weak point". Which makes the difference in this case too:

All these examples feature Dialogue. If thered' been a panel of Smoker saying "Logias can be surprised", it'd be the same deal, and I'd have no "case". But you can't compare those examples with the bar scene. Instead, you can compare it to, say: One panel of Choppers antlers jumping off his head doesn't mean he can take them off.

Mantra trident? What manga have you been reading? The move is called Thunder Alchemy. And he made it warm using Electricity.

Right. You still refuse to accept he trained his DF, even though I gave examples as to why he had before (I didn't just say physical training). Now, if Enel hadn't trained, and thusly had been a "default" logia, all he'd figure out to do would be his "shock release" attacks. Instead, he makes Raigous, Thunder birds, And his famous El Thor….And regarding his battle with Luffy: He uses his lightning abilities to avoid blows. He uses his lightning abilitites to perfect his mantra (not the other way around). He uses his lightning abilities to forge his trident, and superheats it with lightning abilities. He transforms into a being with such range that he can surprise-attack Luffy from behind with Lightning abilities.
And he beat Luffy. Once again, Skypea'd be gone if it wan't for Nami, Wiper, Zoro and Nola.
Oh yeah. Enel sucked.

First off: Are you caling the dial-wielding inhabitants of skypea weaklings?! And Luffy never said they were. He said there'd be people on the GL capable of beating Enel, and he's propably right.
But still: He was a surpreme being of lightning -in the same way Crocodile was a surpreme being of sand. You can't use Enel as an example of default Paramecia>logia.

Right. Let's take a look at the fruits you mentioned. Firtsly: Doa doa, where Blueno for starters needs to touch an object to make a door. We have never seen him creating doors from a distance. The revolving door he used on Luffy was a physical attack. It wouldn't affect a non-physical body.
Now: Noro noro. I've already said it'd affect logias - but to no avail. So you've slowed them down. So what do you do now? Throw a punch? Oh wait…
And now: Ava ava. Let's take a look at some of Califas moves: Enceasing the enemy in bubbles by rubbing their bodys. Won't work. Robbing their strenght by placing bubbles on them. Won't work. Etc.
And Buggy was DEFEATED by phycial damage - all he's immune to is cutting. Also, how would his abilities protect him from non-physical logia attacks?
My point is: All paramecia maintain physical bodies, and attack physically in some way. Logias don't.

Besides, since you like numbers: Luffy and Califa are the only fruits we've seen so far that can possibly damage logias with ability alone. Thats' 2/16.
You're joking...not only do you consider them "new" after being present for 35% of the series, you're basing your argument on this?

Luffy began his jouney after training for 10 years. And Kaku had some prep time. Which a trained, growm-up assasin can make much more of than a 7 year old kid. And Pasta machine was the only move he "accidentally discovered."

Proof? The Enel/Wiper scene only shows that he was Elemental/human when he was unconcious. In what way does it show Enel "activated" his powers at any point?

What difference…? Smoker screaming and dropping the cigars out his mouth as Luffy rams into him from behind isn't enough dialogue for you...???:happy:
Why on eath are you giving me another example to use against you...?
I think the real question is: What panels have you been avoiding? He clearly tells Luffy that he doesn't need to use electricity to fight. It's time YOU uploaded some scans for support.
Your points here contradict the points in No#3. First you say he didn't use mantra to create the trident and that it was "thunder alchemy", then you say he used electricity to perfect his mantra. And…Wow, he attached a giant golden ball on his arm and pushed Luffy off a cliff. The pansy was AVOIDING the fight the whole time. And Zoro and Wiper weren't nearly as significant as you think. Usopp and Sanji could have chopped the beanstalk. Where's your fanboy support now…?
I sure as hell can use Enel...especially considering he was an AMEATURE df user and his powers de-activated when wiper used the sea-stone. And I didn't mean to call Wiper and co. weaklings…just saying that Enel intentionally godmoded himself over people who were horribly matched up against him...just like a pansy.
He has to touch something to create doors, yet he was easily able to slip out of Luffy's Jet barrage and hide while thinking of a counter attack. Then he re-appeared in MID-AIR behind Luffy and was about to attack. Calipha can also create a weird sheep barrier as well as use bubble foam to protect herslef from damage...I almost forgot she was a paramecia. The noro noro fruit allows Foxy to freeze time, and then he can do ANYTHING he wants to the opponent. As we have seen, not all paramecias use physical. Foxy fights just like Krieg. And no, don't give me that bs. Buggy's body parts were tied up, and OF COURSE he is going to be damaged by Luffy's bazooka when he ate the Bara-Bara no mi.
That was like, maybe 5% of my arguement. And in point No#6, I make it clear those two aren't the only paramecias like that. Thus, negating your math.
Plenty of prep time…? It was like half an hour. He also had a tough time keeping his legs short and neck long throughout the whole fight. Besides, Kaku's got the mentality of a 7-year-old. Btw........Luffy was TEN.
I was reffering to the one Aldrich described.

blueblip

@Masta:

The Wiper scene proves that logias have to activate their powers wether you like it or not, and that is final. When Luffy was underwater, his body stayed rubber; although he couldn't control it. The same thing would happen to Buggy and Daz Bones. That proves paramecias can catch logias, who need to focus to stay in their elemental forms, off guard. You've lost in this area.

Actually, all this just shows that Kairouseki nullifies a DF's ability, and paramaecia are permanently in their form, not that logias need to conciously activate their abilities.

Enel couldn't transform out because the kairouseki skies touched Enel first. Realistically, Enel could've just teleported out of there before Wiper jumped on him, but his own arrogance (or maybe just for plot's sake) he didn't. Therefore, Enel was caught be Wiper, and was hit by the reject dial.

The Luffy-underwater thing just shows that paramaecias cannot detransform into regular humans like a logia or zoan. They are stuck as is. It in no way at all proves that a paramaecia could catch a logia.

As for the rest of the arguement, it was too long (sorry ), so I'll let others argue it

Is there any point to argue? Master D clearly is always right. I think he should have posted this thing to some basic information of one piece thing which should be locked after that.

Vanessa

@Masta:

I think the real question is: What panels have you been avoiding? He clearly tells Luffy that he doesn't need to use electricity to fight. It's time YOU uploaded some scans for support.

I always thought that just meant that he could still beat him without directly attacking him with electricity. Since he figured out that his normal electric attacks wouldn't work on Luffy. Hence why he started reshaping his staff into a trident, but that's just me.

Daz

@Masta:

The Wiper scene proves that logias have to activate their powers wether you like it or not, and that is final.

Why? because you say so? Well then, let's play along with the "activating powers" idea. Firstly, before Wiper grabbed him, Enel had just had Zoros swords go through him. Why in the world would he de-activate his power when he was still in a combat situation? Nevertheless, moving on with your theory, he does for some reason. Now, I think we can all agree that the Kairoseki traps Enel in his human form, because the reject worked. However, after the hit his heart restarts, because of electricity coursing in his body. Why is that? Did his power switch on somehow? Or could it be that after Wiper released his Kairoseki-bind, Enel went back into his default form?

Going by the same line of thought: Ace and Smoker were about to fight in the bar; a combat situation. If the nature of their powers was as you said, why hadn't Smoker "activated" his powers? Because " we can see he hadn't" because Luffy hit him.
But by all logic he HAD "activated them", Because if he'd been slow to "activate them", a sudden surprise attack from Ace would have burned him to ashes, wouldn't it, By your logic?
But instead we see him about to turn his fist into Smoke. So, we can deduce that his Smoke powers were active. And Luffy still hit him.
Paradox! Failure on Odas part! Big mystery!

No, it's comic relief.

@Masta:

When Luffy was underwater, his body stayed rubber; although he couldn't control it. The same thing would happen to Buggy and Daz Bones. That proves paramecias can catch logias, who need to focus to stay in their elemental forms, off guard.

Blueblips already covered this one…

@Masta:

You've lost in this area.

I think not.

@Masta:

What difference…? Smoker screaming and dropping the cigars out his mouth as Luffy rams into him from behind isn't enough dialogue for you...???:happy:

…Is this a joke? And if it is an actual point, do you know what dialogue is? Let me repeat: If Smoker had said "Damn, I let that rubber boy surprise me before I became smoke" Then everything would be clear. We accept that Luffy smiled like Gold Roger because it was stated.
Instead it is like the Chopper example: Saying the bar scene proofs that logias can be surprised is like saying the Chopper scene proofs he has artificial antlers- or like the people who thought Franky could control the weather, because of a comic gag in chapter 404.

@Masta:

Why on eath are you giving me another example to use against you…?

What on earth are you talking about?

@Masta:

I think the real question is: What panels have you been avoiding? He clearly tells Luffy that he doesn't need to use electricity to fight. It's time YOU uploaded some scans for support.

He says: "My lightning has no effect, but I have other ways to fight you. Which are the ones I stated. Which ALL REVOLVE AROUND HIS DF! Seriously, I'd like to hear how you think he forged his trident? Body heat?

Edit: What Kidany was saying.

@Masta:

Your points here contradict the points in No#3. First you say he didn't use mantra to create the trident and that it was "thunder alchemy", then you say he used electricity to perfect his mantra.

This makes absolutely no sense. In what way whatsoever does mantra have anything to do with his trident? The point I'm making is: His DF is the basis of his power. If it hadn't been, Enel would have been like Satori with a staff.

@Masta:

And…Wow, he attached a giant golden ball on his arm and pushed Luffy off a cliff. The pansy was AVOIDING the fight the whole time.

Up till the golden ball he, was largely on the offensive, unless you call dodging blows- which is a widely accepted thing to do in a fight - "avoiding the battle. " Aside the gum gum Axe - which was a counterattack- and the final barrage - once he'd found an opening - Luffy was on the defensive.
And with the Gold ball he incapacitated his opponent, removing him as a threat. That is called "winning the battle". You might call it "pansy", but then Croc is a pansy too for drying up Luffy, and Arlong is a pansy for dumping him in the ocean.

@Masta:

And Zoro and Wiper weren't nearly as significant as you think. Usopp and Sanji could have chopped the beanstalk. Where's your fanboy support now…?

What on EARTH are you talking about? That Sanji could have assisted (Usopps attacks did nil) Is completely insignificant to my point: That The reason a paramecia called Luffy truimphed over a logia named Enel in Skypea was because he had outside help. He didn't win by himself.

And just out of curiosity: What do you mean by "fanboy support"? I really have no idea.

@Masta:

I sure as hell can use Enel…especially considering he was an AMEATURE df user

I've already proven that he's not

@Masta:

and his powers de-activated when wiper used the sea-stone.

Just like any DF power would have. Your point?

@Masta:

And I didn't mean to call Wiper and co. weaklings…just saying that Enel intentionally godmoded himself over people who were horribly matched up against him...just like a pansy.

Let's see, for + eight years you've been able to effortlessly smite everyone that stood in your way, and have been virtually immortal. Who in the world wouldn't feel superior and Godlike?
And for the record: How would the Blue Sea dwellers be any better matched up against him than the Skypeans? Both have acces to seastone.

And if you say that arrogacne = pansy, then, well, every villain in the series is a pansy.

Face it: You cannot use Enel as a "default logia!" And if you ask why, you haven't been listening to a word I've said. Besides, even if he was, Luffy wasn't a default paramecia, so your whole "paramecia>logia by default" based on the fight has been flawed from the start.

@Masta:

He has to touch something to create doors, yet he was easily able to slip out of Luffy's Jet barrage and hide while thinking of a counter attack. Then he re-appeared in MID-AIR behind Luffy and was about to attack.

The attack is still physical. You merely described a way to momentraily avoid blows…in a really un-default (and "pansy") way.

@Masta:

Calipha can also create a weird sheep barrier as well as use bubble foam to protect herslef from damage…I almost forgot she was a paramecia.

The attacks are still physical. You merely describ ways to momentraily avoid blows…in a really un-default (and "pansy") way.

@Masta:

The noro noro fruit allows Foxy to freeze time, and then he can do ANYTHING he wants to the opponent.

Like, punch them? Like, shoot them? Like, blow them up? Like, things that won't affect a logia user in any way, and are all physical attacks?

@Masta:

As we have seen, not all paramecias use physical. Foxy fights just like Krieg.

Fact: All paramecias maintain a physical body, and in order to do damage must interact with the opponent physically. And what was Krieg if not a physical fighter? Furthermore, what relevance does it have?

@Masta:

And no, don't give me that bs. Buggy's body parts were tied up, and OF COURSE he is going to be damaged by Luffy's bazooka when he ate the Bara-Bara no mi.

Again, the point is: Hes' vulnerable to physical attacks. His power did jack against Smoker, and I fail to see him faring better against other logias.

@Masta:

That was like, maybe 5% of my arguement. And in point No#6, I make it clear those two aren't the only paramecias like that. Thus, negating your math.

Re-negated, as seen in # 6. And what exactly are you saying? That one of the details you're basing your whole point on should be safe in a debate becasue of it's size?

@Masta:

Plenty of prep time…? It was like half an hour. He also had a tough time keeping his legs short and neck long throughout the whole fight.

Eh? Weren't you just pointing out the greatness of Kaku, because he showed how you could learn attacks "on the spot"? So aren't you kind of, working against yourself here?
And like I said: It wasn't much prep time. But when you already have a perfected fighting style, and recieve a zoan, the two are easy to combine.

Which is another problem factor, as stated on the first page, with the whole default situation.

Vanessa

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgDpAtcV1iVrXtEmX9ttxM7kllehNxHORFOL4!DOSKgPHlp5z43SdCVXtfWRlkMf2geOu0fcP9EvmHu7P2l65eF1u8Lqr4onl3bMsSA57*GI1UuBeJWObA/op280-07.jpg?dc=4675452424417116998
He basically says he can deal with Luffy in other ways, that's when he busted out the trident.

Also, Didn't Enel say that he only used his electricity to widen the range in which his mantra can reach? I'm pretty sure he was already a master of mantra. It only adds on to his ability, it isn't the cause of it.
http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgAAAIoV9xA6LuIvWZ9wrACTV4MExHbUmQaNp3s!!RtmMrnshOQItor812GemNBetPOFYNhHMtyRJ*0kgtyIgC9n9l3RkhZfXZfSqEaFd9YE71A8KQOaMA/c278-001.jpg?dc=4675452423502729596

Aldrich

Now, I think we can all agree that the Kairoseki traps Enel in his human form, because the reject worked. However, after the hit his heart restarts, because of electricity coursing in his body. Why is that? Did his power switch on somehow? Or could it be that after Wiper released his Kairoseki-bind, Enel went back into his default form?

Simple, he can control his powers even when unconscious/on the verge of dying. Sure, it may sound completely nonsensic, but if you can accept the fact he somehow can predict his opponents movements and hear "voices" via that mantra bullshit, why the hell not? He was freed from the kairouseki influence, so he had control over his powers again and was able to use them to restart his heart.

And you said it yourself, his heart restarted cause electricity coursed his body. Why would his heart restart if he came back to what you call his "default" form, the elemental state, his heart would have just turned into lightning like the rest of his body, while it was his "material" heart which was restarted by the electricity he controlled.

I don't remember who defined the Logia powers by "become, control, create". To me, it was a clear case of "create, control" rather than "become".

Daz

@Aldrich:

Simple, he can control his powers even when unconscious/on the verge of dying. Sure, it may sound completely nonsensic, but if you can accept the fact he somehow can predict his opponents movements and hear "voices" via that mantra bullshit, why the hell not? He was freed from the kairouseki influence, so he had control over his powers again and was able to use them to restart his heart.

If he can "activate his powers while unconcious" - which he was the moment the kairoseki was released - isn't that the same as saying his powers are active while unconcious, hence active powers as a default?

@Aldrich:

And you said it yourself, his heart restarted cause electricity coursed his body. Why would his heart restart if he came back to what you call his "default" form, the elemental state, his heart would have just turned into lightning like the rest of his body, while it was his "material" heart which was restarted by the electricity he controlled.

That's because what I advocate as "default form" is a 50-50 physical-elemental mix. They look human, they can hold things, and Ace doesn't burn things he merely touches…while at the same time having attacks go through them.

@Aldrich:

I don't remember who defined the Logia powers by "become, control, create". To me, it was a clear case of "create, control" rather than "become".

It has never been defined. But if it wasn't "become" Enel shouldn't have said "I am thunder!" But I'm a man who can create thunder, and sometimes turn myself into it".
They create the element by tapping it from their own bodies, and can only control the element created in this way. To me, the focus is all about the element in relation to the body, hence "become".

Aldrich

I'm not going to reply point by point to your post again cause honestly I already said what I thought on the subject, but just a last thing, how do you explain Aokiji getting hit twice by Luffy in Longring Longland without being shattered?

Surely if Logias were instinctively or permanently immune to physical attacks, Luffy's punch should have went through Aokiji's belly and he shouldn't have been able to send him flying with a kick? Especially since three panels later we see the Gomu Gomu no storm shatter Aokiji's ice form. How could you explain that difference, except that in one case Aokiji chosed to stay in his human form and in the other he turned into his elemental state?

Daz

I think I'm about done arguing my points too - No offense to you, you actually make sense. I just feel I'm getting bored repeating myself.

Now, the Aokiji thing…well, he has Ice powers after all, the most "solid" logia we've seen - and Ice can be pretty hard. I think the reason he wasn't shattered was strenght difference in the attacks - I mean, I'd say Luffys storm and Robins clutch were stronger than the belly-blow and the kick.
And if we go by your activation-explanation: Why would he choose to do constantly de-and activate it?

Masta D.

All I have to say, is that logias stay in their elemental forms permanently. If they are caught off guard, their powers are "unwillingly" de-activated but are STILL their element. So for a brief moment, they can be harmed by physical attacks.

I think what Croc was saying was that he didn't train his "ability to transform into his element", but that he trained his ability to stay in his element". In other words, it requires focus. Thus, rookie logias can loose a battle if their opponent moves faster and/or can catch them with more surprise hits.

I'm not arguing with Daz just because I can. I'm arguing until all my points are proven false.

Vanessa

When Aokiji took Luffy's first punch, I think it was meant to show how strong he is. That even without using his logia powers, he was able to take a punch from Luffy and simply shrug it off. Also show Aokiji's speed when he grabbed both Zoro and Sanji and they were shocked to say the least. I think the fight with Aokiji was done to sort of knock Luffy down a few notches, I mean at that time he did beat 2 other logias already so Luffy pretty much seemed at the top of the world back then.

It was the same when Crocodile first showed up. Luffy had already beaten alot of strong people, and I think when he lost it showed that Luffy doesn't have quite what it takes yet to face the big fishes of the Grand Line. The same thing happened, at least that's how I saw it.

blueblip

I think Aokiji is an extremely accomplished martial artist as well as developing his ability thoroughly. Like Kidany said, it was probably just a way to show that he's buff, and he's a powerful logia.

Off Topic: Can Aokiji create ice? I mean, he can freeze anything that he touches/exists, like when he tossed those stones up to make an ice sword. But can he create say…a wall of ice like how Croc can create a Desert Spada (bad comparison I know, but I had nothing else to work with)? I guess another way to ask this question is is Aokiji's power more like an ice ice fruit, or a freeze freeze fruit which extends to himself?

Polygon

I agree with Kidany. Ao Kiji took the punch to show Luffy the differance between a 100 million man and an Admiral. Smoker did the same thing if I recall correctly. I remember Smoker did a soru type of thing to Luffy in Lougetown. He was infront of him and instantly appeared behind him then kicked him. And I don't think Sanji and Zoro saw Ao Kiji's hands move when he grabbed them. It was probaley so fast that their eyes had no idea his hands even moved. therefore causing the illusion his hands were still in his pocket when they weren't.

Vanessa

@blueblip:

Off Topic: Can Aokiji create ice? I mean, he can freeze anything that he touches/exists, like when he tossed those stones up to make an ice sword. But can he create say…a wall of ice like how Croc can create a Desert Spada (bad comparison I know, but I had nothing else to work with)? I guess another way to ask this question is is Aokiji's power more like an ice ice fruit, or a freeze freeze fruit which extends to himself?

I think he has all the types of control of ice, at least if he trained himself enough.

The major difference between paramecias like Mr. 3's and Califa's, and full on logias is that they have the potential to control,create, and expand on their element. While Mr. 3 can create wax and expand on what he does with his wax, he can't ever become wax itself. Califa can create soap, expand on her soap abilities she can't ever become soap itself.

This can also apply to people like Luffy and Daz Bones. Luffy IS rubber and can expand on his rubber properties, but he can't create rubber itself. Daz Bones IS steel and is able to manipulate it to make attacks, but cannot create steel outside of his own body.

Logias on the other hand, can do all these things, plus choose wether they want to become their element itself or not. That's just my reasoning on it.

Masta D.

@Kidany:

I think he has all the types of control of ice, at least if he trained himself enough.

The major difference between paramecias like Mr. 3's and Califa's, and full on logias is that they have the potential to control,create, and expand on their element. While Mr. 3 can create wax and expand on what he does with his wax, he can't ever become wax itself. Califa can create soap, expand on her soap abilities she can't ever become soap itself.

This can also apply to people like Luffy and Daz Bones. Luffy IS rubber and can expand on his rubber properties, but he can't create rubber itself. Daz Bones IS steel and is able to manipulate it to make attacks, but cannot create steel outside of his own body.

Logias on the other hand, can do all these things, plus choose wether they want to become their element itself or not. That's just my reasoning on it.

Sounds like a cool theory. Logias are nearly perfect, wheras paramecias have a limited potential.

Vanessa

Well I wouldn't exactly call it limiting. If anything, logias themselves are more limiting than paramecias in terms on how creative you can be with it. There's only so many things you can do with sand,smoke,lighting, or ice.

Most of Crocodile's attacks mainly consisted of hurling sand, sucking up moisture form the opponent, and creating sandstorms. Ener's attacks were just blasts of lighting, reforging metals, and becoming a giant bugzapper….. I won't touch on Smoker or Aokiji since we haven't seen much of them.

Paramecias, in my opinion, have much more potential for growth. It all depends on how creative one can be with their ability.

Daz

It seems like people don't accept my "constantly active powers" theory. Fair enough, nothing is definite about the logias until Oda says so. This is why I won't bother repeating myself in response to MAsta D.s' earlier post.
But before you all accept the "logia powers must be activated" Side, please think of the consequences of that theory:

Why would Smoker, Enel and Aokiji (when Luffy kicked him) All "switch their powers off" in the middle of combat situations?

I'm not saying my theory is the unquestionable truth. But that doesn't mean I can't disprove other theories. However, in this case:

I'm arguing until all my points are proven false.

I really have to ask you: What does it take to prove that Enel trained his powers, and that logiaisn't < paramecia by default?

Vanessa

I always thought it was obvious that Ener trained his powers very well. I mean it takes some good control of electrical abilities to be able to reforge metals to the exact shape that you wanted them in.

My reason for thinking that they have to activate their element is for training purposes. I think that while it's ok to rely on your logia powers for offense, they don't want to become to dependent on their power defensively.

Even if I could turn into ice, fire, etc.; I would still want to train myself too take a hit against others. They probably thought that there might be people that could bypass their logia defenses(with the exception of Ener, he thought of himself as a God). I think Ace, Smoker, and Aokiji are smart enough to know that there might be methods of cancelling out their power, like seastone. So they can be better prepared for fights that they might be in. I mean Luffy even said Ace could beat him even before he got his DF, so it's not impossible to think other logia users were established fighters before they got ahold of their logia fruit. Considering they're rare to begin with.

Btw Daz, I agree with you on logia>paramecia by default.

Daz

I agree with you on everything, except one detail: Why is the "activation" scenario necessary for the logias to physically train? Are you saying that they "deactivate" and become 100% human while exersicing? That seems risky…
The "always in a 50-50 physical-elemental state" standpoint works just as well here.

Vanessa

It'll only be necessary if that logia use wants to learn to take alot of punishment before a breaking point.If a logia user learns to take alot of pain, he won't be in so much of a disadvantage if his ability to shift into the element doesn't stop hits from coming.

Ener for example: from the moment he got ahold of his DF, he basically thought of himself as untouchable. I don't think he ever learned to take alot of pain, which became a disadvantage when Luffy was able to bypass his electrical form. Not to say he wasn't skilled, he adapted well afterwards with the trident and the golden ball. Just that he lost alot of his defensive capabilites, which left him wide open for pain.

Crocodile on the otherhand can take some pain. Even when Luffy was able to hit him, he still managed to take the hits and come out on top the second time they fought. Albeit the third time it didn't turn out so well for him, he was able to take some damage.

Daz

Yeah, I understood that, and I agree - although Anyone who takes Octupus fireworks, Bazooka and Rifle in a row, and still gets up, is hella able to take some physical pain, IMO…
Training their bodies make perfect sense...what I don't get is how it supports the "activation of logia abilities" theory.

Masta D.

@The:

Yeah, I understood that, and I agree - although Anyone who takes Octupus fireworks, Bazooka and Rifle in a row, and still gets up, is hella able to take some physical pain, IMO…
Training their bodies make perfect sense...what I don't get is how it supports the "activation of logia abilities" theory.

Are you biased or something…? I corrected myself in my earlier post and said:

"All I have to say, is that logias stay in their elemental forms permanently. If they are caught off guard, their powers are "unwillingly" de-activated but are STILL their element. So for a brief moment, they can be harmed by physical attacks.
I think what Croc was saying was that he didn't train his "ability to transform into his element", but that he trained his ability to stay in his element". In other words, it requires focus. Thus, rookie logias can loose a battle if their opponent moves faster and/or can catch them with more surprise hits."

I said clearly that I believe logias are permanently in their elemental state. My oppinions only differ from yours in that they can be forced to turn back if they are caught off guard. So unless you train to stay focused, you won't stay in logia form. That is ALL I had to say this whole time; something with actual facts and proof…

Daz

Eh? I don't get why you're adressing that quote - it was part of a dialogue between me and Kenechi, regarding whether logias trained their bodies physically…I wasn't adressing you, and I can't see what physical training has to do with the quote you bring up.

And you are right: "Logias can be surprised" is the only difference between our views, but it's pretty major, and your "paramecia>logia" theory stands and falls with this.
More specifically, it stands and falls with the bar scene, which is the only "fact" and "proof" you have of your viewpoint. I use "" Because of my previous posts, in response to your arguments - the last of which you didn't even comment on.

To sum up the bar scene:

It features no confirming dialogue of what you say is correct.
It features powers and characters who'd been present in the series for quite some time.
It was a combat situation. In such a situation, you'd think Smoker was "focused" and thusly had his powers active. And he is visibilly about to use one of the smoke moves with his arm.
It was a damn funny scene. Those don't have to make 100% sense -like when the characters eye pops out of their skulls, Choppers antler pops off, and Lightning appears when Franky says "super" etc.

Masta D.

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