Well, I think there are probably strategies that can be used. Maybe Mihawk's sword is seastone afterall, I never really paid attention. I just find it weird that people assume the "strongest" titles ignore the logic of fighting Logias.
Luffy & Zoro (Potential Spoilers)
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Zoro's actually questionable in pure physical strength.
He's a great swordsman, but that includes great tools and finesse. In terms of raw impact, I'm suspect. When he chopped Mr. 1 apart, the sword deserves some credit, as does technique. How much of it was sheer power is iffy.
I'm gonna propose these rankings without weapons, in the 'if they each punched Furukoru (or in the case of Sanji, kicked)' sense.
Luffy: 6000 douriki. He can wind a lot of impact into a punch.
Franky: 6500 douriki. His metal body makes him eminently suitable for hand-to-hand.
Robin: 2000 douriki, because she could combine the attack power of a hundred arms. Hana Hana no Gatling.
Sanji: 400 douriki. He's the only pure-physical combatant we've had in the crew for any length of time.
Zoro: 200 douriki. Strong for a human, but his strength isn't adapted to direct combat.
Nami: 10 douriki. I'd argue she has lost some physical strength since her battles are now faught with the Tact, not a regular staff. As of Arlong arc I'd give her 15-20 douriki.
Usopp: 11 douriki. He's the most tool-dependent of all, but swinging that hammer must do him some good.
Chopper: 5 douriki in Walk Point, 600-1000 in Heavy Point, 10,000 in ChoppzillaOctogon: I'm also not convinced Sanji's injured in the technical sense. When we saw glossy-Sanji a few chapters ago, he was missing a few teeth it seemed, but who knows what extent Califa's "spell" was undone by the water.
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@Octogon:
I'm not talking about the databooks. I never even brung them up. Oda said this in an SBS. It was a while ago, but I doubt it will change. And don't act as if luffy being the captain automaticly makes him the strongest. Name opne of luffy's enemies that zoro couldn't beat. Excluding those people who have some kind of advatage over zoro, like buggy or enel.
I'm sorry i havn't read an SBS stating that. Maybe a link would help.
I do remember then having the same strength rating in one of the databooks though.How is he injuried.
Fight with Kalipha. He took a lot of blows in that one. Comparitive to Luffy/Zoro who are starting their fights fresh, he is starting his fight at less than 100%
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Zoro's actually questionable in pure physical strength.
He's a great swordsman, but that includes great tools and finesse. In terms of raw impact, I'm suspect. When he chopped Mr. 1 apart, the sword deserves some credit, as does technique. How much of it was sheer power is iffy.
You mean the one who is all the time training with heavy weights on his sword one time even a camel and who lifted a whole house and all of that in the Alabasta arc is questionable in pure strength????? I think you ought to reconsider. And what's with the ranking? Robin is ten times as strong as Zoro? The Robin who had problems lifting Yama in the Sky Island arc is stronger than Houselifting-Zoro? No way.
Gorlak wants you for the army
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I think that luffy is first in terms of power in the crew (so why he is the captain)
its about like this 1) Luffy (with or without gears )
2) sanji = zoro ( they are equal to strength but sanji's character is funny and pervet which make him look weaker)
3)robin
4)nami
5)Reinder(without his last form
)
6)ussop4-6 places can change anytime ,but the first three characters ranking (luffy,sanji,zoro) would be the same until the end of one piece manga.
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@Bounty1Berry - awesome post ^_^ obviously for comic relief, b/c i'm cracking up pretty good right now.
Anyways… I won't use any numbers, but simply b/c Luffy is the captain, and the main protagonist, he'll always be the strongest. Zoro being the 1st mate will always be 2nd strongest. The rest will be categorized by their respective tiers. Sanji is 3rd strongest b/c he's in the top tier group, so he'll always be a little behind Zoro. If Franky joins the crew (I love Franky, but i don't want him in the crew), i believe he'll be portrayed as 4th strongest simply b/c he'll be put in the top tier, and it's a matter of seniority to the others (Luffy, Zoro, Sanji). I don't know if it's necessary to go into the others, but this is how I see things.
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I'm sorry i havn't read an SBS stating that. Maybe a link would help.
I do remember then having the same strength rating in one of the databooks though.I'll dig for it and see if I can find it.
Fight with Kalipha. He took a lot of blows in that one. Comparitive to Luffy/Zoro who are starting their fights fresh, he is starting his fight at less than 100%
I disagree. He could have owned Calipha, but he didn't. I really don't think it affected him any, exept the kick in the balls. but this is OP. Luffy and zroro healed from the shigan they recieved in W7. And remember luffy getting impaled in arabasta? I had no earing on him fighting croc.
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I think in the one piece world mihawk might be the second or third most powerful person in the world. first being white beard and after that it's the best swordsman in the world and the greatest martial artist in the world. i think jinbei might be the most powerful martial artist in the world since we were introduced to fishman martial arts during the arlong arc. i think by the end of one piece luffy will get the title of pirate king and most powerful man in the world and then zoro will get the title of the greatest swordsman in the world sanji might get the title of the greatest martial artist in the world. although i'm not to sure about sanji becoming the best martial artist in the world since he doesn't use his hands.
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You mean the one who is all the time training with heavy weights on his sword one time even a camel and who lifted a whole house and all of that in the Alabasta arc is questionable in pure strength?????
Arlong also lifted a house, but I doubt he's much above 500-1000 douriki, and a significant portion of that is from his natural advantadge.
Douriki is (as we've seen it) a measure of impact fighting. And I think Zoro's style costs him points on that test. He simply doesn't throw punches or kicks, so he probably doesn't do it well from want of practice.
Robin can make up for lack of individual power with sheer quantitiy. As I said, 2000 douriki by means of a 100-hand attack would imply her regular impact is only twice as strong as a normal person's.
I'm also tending to believe (assuming a linear scale) that no 'normal' human can go much above 1000 or so douriki. There simply isn't that range in normal human capacities. Luffy, Franky, and Robin can go higher because their attack styles are enhanced in ways normal humans can't go.
[Edit:}
Here I am claiming 'no mortal man can surpass 1000 douriki' when we know much of CP9 has. Of course, I can justify it (covers ass)– they've spent their entire careers training on the system, they presumably know its ins and outs better than anyone else and can therefore run the scores up. -
What's with Usopp being physically weaker than Nami and Robin? I know the last chapters weren't too brilliant for the long nose, but let's not get carried away.
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Arlong also lifted a house, but I doubt he's much above 500-1000 douriki, and a significant portion of that is from his natural advantadge.
Douriki is (as we've seen it) a measure of impact fighting. And I think Zoro's style costs him points on that test. He simply doesn't throw punches or kicks, so he probably doesn't do it well from want of practice.
Robin can make up for lack of individual power with sheer quantitiy. As I said, 2000 douriki by means of a 100-hand attack would imply her regular impact is only twice as strong as a normal person's.
I'm also tending to believe (assuming a linear scale) that no 'normal' human can go much above 1000 or so douriki. There simply isn't that range in normal human capacities. Luffy, Franky, and Robin can go higher because their attack styles are enhanced in ways normal humans can't go.
I am 100 percent sure zoro has at least 15x the doutricki you said he does. And robin has no where near 2000, she simply isn't a very good fighter. against people with physical strengh like lucchi, what can she do?
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I don't think Robin is that much of a fighter either. I can picture her against a really physically powerful opponent, let's say a shichibukai like Kuma or one of the Admirals, trying one of her clutches and not being able to make her opponent flinch, hurting her arms, with her foe saying something along the lines of "you may use 30 arms instead of 2 but you're still just a woman".
Of course there's the Aokiji counter example, but it was probably easier for him just to turn into ice instead of resisting Robin's clutch.
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Robin's advantage in a fight is her ability to keep the hits coming. There's no let-up while she pulls back for the next punch for a foe to respond or regain territory. There's also a secondary advantadge, that she can restrain without losing much fighting power. Try holding down your little brother with one arm and punching with the other, then start wishing you had Hana Hana goodness
She might also be able to make limbs to attack from a distance or even a hiding spot and wear down a foe, even if she couldn't directly defeat one.
And remember, it's a one-dimensional measure of sttength. I'd argue, for example, that Bon Clay would out-douriki Mr. 1, because Okama Kempo is simply a more impact-oriented style.
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Robin's advantage in a fight is her ability to keep the hits coming. There's no let-up while she pulls back for the next punch for a foe to respond or regain territory. There's also a secondary advantadge, that she can restrain without losing much fighting power. Try holding down your little brother with one arm and punching with the other, then start wishing you had Hana Hana goodness
She might also be able to make limbs to attack from a distance or even a hiding spot and wear down a foe, even if she couldn't directly defeat one.
And remember, it's a one-dimensional measure of sttength. I'd argue, for example, that Bon Clay would out-douriki Mr. 1, because Okama Kempo is simply a more impact-oriented style.
Get a normal person and punch zoro in the chest 10,000 times. what would happen? nothing. it's the same, robin has no chance against someone of that raw sttrengh. she can't hope to bend them.
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Very interesting argument.
I'd expect the effect of such a continual pounding would be like tenderizing meat. Each individual strike might not do much, but in the end, you'd do a fairly damaging job in the form of bruising, damaged capillaries, and mashed muscle fibres.
In that sense, I'll then give that she might not be a finisher, but there's little reason she couldn't hold a line with someone like Lucci until someone more capable of a finishing strike arrives.
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Very interesting argument.
I'd expect the effect of such a continual pounding would be like tenderizing meat. Each individual strike might not do much, but in the end, you'd do a fairly damaging job in the form of bruising, damaged capillaries, and mashed muscle fibres.
In that sense, I'll then give that she might not be a finisher, but there's little reason she couldn't hold a line with someone like Lucci until someone more capable of a finishing strike arrives.
Robin punching zoro's chest is the equivlent of a tiny drop of water falling on your chest. Even if 10,000 drops fall on you, not much will happen. Robin will have to summon tens of thousands of arms. she simply doesn't have the muscle power to defeat zoro.
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Douriki is a measure of strength independent of DF abilities (look back to Jyabura's little spat with Kaku after Fukurou's reading.) A Marine armed with a rifle was said to have a douriki of about 10. Thus Arlong, who claimed that fishmen were ten times stronger on dry land than humans, would have a douriki of about 100. This seems way too low. I supect that Arlong was probably more like forty times stronger than an average human, so about 400 douriki. Still too low? I think forty men could lift a house-especially since the one Arlong hoisted was solid wood construction; not a brick in sight!
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I think the whole "fishmen are 10 times stronger" mean that the average fishman is 10x stronger than the average human. So all those no-ones from Arlong crew would be about 100 douriki (I think it is much, much less, Arlong was just sayting that fishmen are stronger, not stating mathematical facts)
I think that Douriki is not the same as the power-level thing from DBZ. In other words, just because the current villains have 600 Douriki the previous villains would have a lot less. If I were to judge Arlong by his feats (hurting people by throwing water, breaking things by darting about with his nose, withstanding the initial arsenal of Luffy's attacks and even not being harmed by Sanji's and Zoro's attacks), I would judge that Arlong has the strenght necessary to fight at least one of the lower-level CP9.
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@Octogon:
I disagree. He could have owned Calipha, but he didn't. I really don't think it affected him any, exept the kick in the balls. but this is OP. Luffy and zroro healed from the shigan they recieved in W7. And remember luffy getting impaled in arabasta? I had no earing on him fighting croc.
Whether or not he could have owned Kalipha is besides the point. We all know he simply outclassed her there. But the fact remains, he took a lot of damage from the fight, Shigan here, Rankyaku there, Soapified, crashing through around 3 stories etc… and he was incapacitated till but a few minutes back.
It isn't even as long as the duration between W7 to now, or even the sea train to now (where Sanji and Usopp were ganged upon by the CP9).
Fact still remains that he starts a fight with an opponent on Kaku's calibre (who is Zoro's opponent) while not at 100% (unlike Zoro and Luffy)
@octagon:
Robin punching zoro's chest is the equivlent of a tiny drop of water falling on your chest. Even if 10,000 drops fall on you, not much will happen. Robin will have to summon tens of thousands of arms. she simply doesn't have the muscle power to defeat zoro.
1000 droplets at once though would hurt a helluva lot. Not like she needs to hit a person to defeat them. Her style of fighting is submission based. Speed and strength don't matter (as she herself says in Alabasta). Pop hands, disarm Zoro by knocking away the swords, break a couple of his legs etc…
Zoro relies a lot on his upper body power where most of his power comes from.He doesn't move around much. Not saying that his legs are weak, they certainly arn't, but 20-30 arms bending them every which way would be just too much. -
Whether or not he could have owned Kalipha is besides the point. We all know he simply outclassed her there. But the fact remains, he took a lot of damage from the fight, Shigan here, Rankyaku there, Soapified, crashing through around 3 stories etc… and he was incapacitated till but a few minutes back.
It isn't even as long as the duration between W7 to now, or even the sea train to now (where Sanji and Usopp were ganged upon by the CP9).
Fact still remains that he starts a fight with an opponent on Kaku's calibre (who is Zoro's opponent) while not at 100% (unlike Zoro and Luffy)
where do you get the idea that he is injuried. If he really was there would be some mention of it by now. In One Piece these kinf of things don't really matter. Like Zoro carrying nami after the daz bones battle. The only known time a wound effected his strengh was when fighting hatchi. and we got mention of how he was about to pass out a couple of times.
1000 droplets at once though would hurt a helluva lot. Not like she needs to hit a person to defeat them. Her style of fighting is submission based. Speed and strength don't matter (as she herself says in Alabasta). Pop hands, disarm Zoro by knocking away the swords, break a couple of his legs etc…
Zoro relies a lot on his upper body power where most of his power comes from.He doesn't move around much. Not saying that his legs are weak, they certainly arn't, but 20-30 arms bending them every which way would be just too much.
**Yes Robin did say strengh doesn't matter to her. But she never experianced the strengh of someone like zoro. 20-30 aroms on zoro isn't enoughf. Maybe a couple thousand. Imagine instead of robins arms bending zoro every which way, it was 20 marine soldiers. Would it have any effect on him?
Tell me this. Do you think she can beat Roger based of what we know? Mihawk? Whitebeard? Shanks? Ben Beckman? Jinbei?
Yes we know next to nothing about these people. But what we do know is that they are bound to have a LOt of raw strengh. Enoughf to discard robin like a piece of trash.**
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Actually, my point was to get away from any kind of quanta by pointing out how a known, arbitrary unit (douriki) did little to determine the outcome of a fight. Like Zeff told Sanji during Luffy's fight with Krieg: "In the end, grit counts more than steel."
The grit displayed by Luffy and Zoro are of the same caliber; Sanji held himself back for several years due to his devotion to Zeff, but now that he's persuing his own dream (All Blue) and fighting hard to protect his friends/godesses, his willpower has begun to catch up to the captain and first mate.
I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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@_Meh_:
Actually, my point was to get away from any kind of quanta by pointing out how a known, arbitrary unit (douriki) did little to determine the outcome of a fight. Like Zeff told Sanji during Luffy's fight with Krieg: "In the end, grit counts more than steel."
The grit displayed by Luffy and Zoro are of the same caliber; Sanji held himself back for several years due to his devotion to Zeff, but now that he's persuing his own dream (All Blue) and fighting hard to protect his friends/godesses, his willpower has begun to catch up to the captain and first mate.
Was this directed to me? If so I never disagreed with this idea. In fact I'm behind it completley.
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I dunno.. seeing Robin.. I only picture…
The sturdiness of 10 matches together
compared to a single match -
Originally Posted by octagon
_Robin punching zoro's chest is the equivlent of a tiny drop of water falling on your chest. Even if 10,000 drops fall on you, not much will happen. Robin will have to summon tens of thousands of arms. she simply doesn't have the muscle power to defeat zoro.That's absolutely wrong, if you were tied down by say Robins hands and 1000 droplets of water fell on the same exact spot of your body, you would be very sore, I don't know exactly how many, but after a certain amount of droplets you would die, because eventually that spot would tenderize enough for the next droplet to take the wind out of you and the continuing drops to kill you.
Same goes for Robin, 1000 hits to Zoro's chest in the same spot with her ability, and Zoro would die (if Oda actually let people die)_
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@Octogon:
Name opne of luffy's enemies that zoro couldn't beat. Excluding those people who have some kind of advatage over zoro, like buggy or enel.
Why are you excluding people like Enel or Buggy?
My youtube video, one-sided sanjixusopp. Listen closely to the lyrics
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@Octogon:
where do you get the idea that he is injuried. If he really was there would be some mention of it by now. In One Piece these kinf of things don't really matter. Like Zoro carrying nami after the daz bones battle. The only known time a wound effected his strengh was when fighting hatchi. and we got mention of how he was about to pass out a couple of times.
Grit/Determination. Zoro/Sanji/Nami/Usopp/Chopper running all over Alabasta looking for the bomb despite being heavily injured during their respective matches. They gave it all they had simply because they had a friend relying on them. Will power.
Sanji is fighting now, and going by how strong people's wills are in the SH crew his previous fight should not have an effect on his performance.THE FACT still remains that Sanji is starting the fight while not physically at 100% because of the thrashing he received from Kalipha. I simply do not get how you can deny this, unless you choose to totally ignore all that happened.
**Yes Robin did say strengh doesn't matter to her. But she never experianced the strengh of someone like zoro. 20-30 aroms on zoro isn't enoughf. Maybe a couple thousand. Imagine instead of robins arms bending zoro every which way, it was 20 marine soldiers. Would it have any effect on him?
This is simply speculation and we will probably never know the answer to this because Robin and Zoro will never fight. But Submission >>>> brute strength IRL. So yes i do see Robin hurting Zoro.
Tell me this. Do you think she can beat Roger based of what we know? Mihawk? Whitebeard? Shanks? Ben Beckman? Jinbei?
What do we know of Roger or the others? Nothing. Why are they even in this discussion?
Yes we know next to nothing about these people. But what we do know is that they are bound to have a LOt of raw strengh. Enoughf to discard robin like a piece of trash.
Since when do we know that "they are bound to have a LOt of raw strengh. Enoughf to discard robin like a piece of trash".
Really where are you getting this from??
you're really underestimating Robin IMO. She is one of the most versatile fighters in the OP world.** -
He's not at 100%, but it doesn't take anything away from him. People said that he was injured before Gin, but it's not like he would have won if he wasn't.
And back onto doriki: Franky had a helluva time with Fukuro. If Sanji wins, would you say he's twice as strong as Franky? Can human Lucci beat Zoro and Sanji at the same time? Like Meh mentioned, it's an arbitrary measurement.
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nah, I always saw sanji and zoro as equals, and luffy being stronger than both of them. like zoro is the upper body while sanji is lower body. zoros swords put him at an advantage, but as weve seen, sanjis knife skills rival seem to be like zoros.
Its hard to judge whos stronger since they both have completely different fighting styles, and fighting with your legs is completely different than fighting with your arms. but theyve both shown superhuman strength using both.(zoro chucked a building at Mr.1, and sanji kicked a giant merman up with one leg)
so Imo, luffy is the strongest and zoro = sanji, at least thats what I think oda is trying to show us.(they always say the same thing, and then say, thats my line.)
Also theyre rivalry and dislike of eachother seems to work towards my theory(opposites attract, similar repels)
Also pirate king and greatest swordsman are 2 different things, I dont think zoros goal is nearly as big as luffys goal. zoros goal just gives him satisfaction and affects other swordsmen, while luffys affect the whole world, also zoros is alot easier to accomplish, all he has to do is beat mihawk, luffy needs to gain the respect of the whole world.
the onl thing that makes zoro any more superior is his swords, but on pure strength, luffy> zoro = sanji
and the strength of the mugiwaras goes like
luffy
robin
zoro(with swords)
sanji
chopper(with rumble ball)
nami(with perfect clima tact)
ussopI put with weapons because its easier to predict with them.
also, I dont think zoro will gain anything like the gears, but maybe master that breath thing or a new technique(like the pound cannon moves) but nothing like the gears.
My point is that its pretty much an unwritten rule that their strength levels have to always be ranked Luffy > Zoro > Sanji, with there being a small difference in between. But yeah in an actual fight Zoro would probably have an advantage over Luffy due to his swords, while Sanji would have a heck of a time beating Luffy due to his endurance from non blade attacks.
"Name opne of luffy's enemies that zoro couldn't beat."
Pretty much every single enemy Luffy has fought throughout the whole series while Zoro was with him. Take Arlong for example. Even at full strength, Zoro wouldn't have been strong enough to beat him at that point in the story. Its just pretty much implied due to the fact that Luffy always gets the strongest opponent. Luffy and Zoro are close in strength, but not the same.
Also, if it ever was actually mentioned that Mihawk could cut elements, that would have to mean that he could hear their breath and actually destroy them without them being able to reform, or the comment would of been completely meaningless and not an ability at all.
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About Robin: Robin is not invincible, not by far. She is weaker than Zoro and discussions about a multitude of droplets of water are quite stupid in my opinion.
About Sanji: Sry WarcoW but Oda doesn't seem to give a damn about physical limits of a human body. As long as a character isn't dead or mutilated like Zeff they don't seem to lose even a little bit of their fighting ability.
On topic (Yes there still is such a thing as a topic in this thread): The difference between Luffy and Zoro is hard to estimate at the moment. No one grows as much in a fight as Zoro, Luffy on the other hand seems to develop his techniques off screen in between his fights. Right now it seems that Luffy is far stronger than Zoro because he already partly unveiled his Gears. Zoro on the other hand has yet to almost die twice before he can invent his new ultimate skill. Until then I don't think it is even really possible to portay their respective strength accurately.
Gorlak wants you for the army
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About Robin: Robin is not invincible, not by far. She is weaker than Zoro
you are of course totaly right she is not byfar invincible put her up against a logia or most kinds of body altering Paramecias and shes in trouble but against people with normal bodys that cant turn into water,ice rubber or whatever her submission holds are lethal and she is most likely to come out as the winner,
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No one grows as much in a fight as Zoro, Luffy on the other hand seems to develop his techniques off screen in between his fights. Right now it seems that Luffy is far stronger than Zoro because he already partly unveiled his Gears. Zoro on the other hand has yet to almost die twice before he can invent his new ultimate skill. Until then I don't think it is even really possible to portay their respective strength accurately.
Indeed. I have to agree with this totally.
I think the Luffy/Zoro being the strongest and pretty much equal holds true 99% of the time. There are little fluctuations due to plot and how events unfold, but that seems to be a pretty constant theme with Oda, and I dont think hes going to change it.
For example, Luffy atm is the strongest, and if Sanji advances to some new super moves in his fight with Jyabura before the Zoro fight finishes, then Sanji may breifly have caught up to or slightly surpassed Zoro. But by the time Zoro's fight finishes in turn and he makes his major advancement as well, things will most likely fall right back into the Luffy/Zoro > rest again.
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@Kidany:
Well you have to consider that Don Krieg had that gold armor on; which I'm not exactly sure Zoro could have broken at that point, but otherwise, he could have beaten him. Arlong, I don't think even at full power, Zoro could have beaten him IMO. About Crocodile, I don't want to bring up a Crocodile vs "insert name here" argument , but I don't really see how Zoro could have beaten him. Would you mind explaining how?
**I don't think Krieg's armor was steel, so he could brek it. and what makes Arlong so powerful? Did you see Arlongs face when he saw Zoro's wound? I believe that Is the only time I've seen arlong that schoked.
And why is croc so invincable? Zoro can find out crocs weakness just as luffy did. And you better believe Zoro would drench his swords in blood or what ever liquid.**
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He's not at 100%, but it doesn't take anything away from him. People said that he was injured before Gin, but it's not like he would have won if he wasn't.
He could barely stand the weight of his own kicks. lets not choose to be totally ignorant here. It was implied that Sanji wouldn't have had as much of a tough time had he not been injured.
And back onto doriki: Franky had a helluva time with Fukuro. If Sanji wins, would you say he's twice as strong as Franky? Can human Lucci beat Zoro and Sanji at the same time? Like Meh mentioned, it's an arbitrary measurement.
Franky was having initial problems due to a lack of cola. And then being pushed into the waterfall. Once he was out of it, he simply destroyed Fukuro.
It may be an arbitrary measurement or whatever, but there is a reason it is there….to give an insight as to which are the most dangerous of the CP9 (without taking into account the DF powers)About Sanji: Sry WarcoW but Oda doesn't seem to give a damn about physical limits of a human body. As long as a character isn't dead or mutilated like Zeff they don't seem to lose even a little bit of their fighting ability.
sigh I know it will not hinder his fight against Jabs at this point :laugh . Or at the very least it would result in something similar to Gin vs Sanji, where Gin had the advantage in fighting someone who couldn't stand the force of his own kicks.
My point was that comparitively, Sanji is fighting at less than 100% (whether it makes a difference or not)
For example, Luffy atm is the strongest, and if Sanji advances to some new super moves in his fight with Jyabura before the Zoro fight finishes, then Sanji may breifly have caught up to or slightly surpassed Zoro. But by the time Zoro's fight finishes in turn and he makes his major advancement as well, things will most likely fall right back into the Luffy/Zoro > rest again
I dunno but IMO it looks like Oda presents the Sanji = Zoro bit a lot better than any Luffy = Zoro bits. They're having an ongoing rivalry ever since Little Garden. Hell there was the small comparison between Zoro and Sanji and Brogi/Dory who are pretty evenly matched themselves. And now them fighting Kaku/Jabs who are more or less equal in their Rokushiki skills.
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@Skull:
Pretty much every single enemy Luffy has fought throughout the whole series while Zoro was with him. Take Arlong for example. Even at full strength, Zoro wouldn't have been strong enough to beat him at that point in the story. Its just pretty much implied due to the fact that Luffy always gets the strongest opponent. Luffy and Zoro are close in strength, but not the same.
**Are you serious? I can only think of 2 people Zoro couldn't defeat. that being Enel and Buggy. Enel because of his logia Df and buggy is pretty much immune to blades.
He could've taken Alvida, Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong (if he wasn't injuried), Crocodile, and so on.
I consider luffy and zoro equal to each other.**
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I dunno but IMO it looks like Oda presents the Sanji = Zoro bit a lot better than any Luffy = Zoro bits. They're having an ongoing rivalry ever since Little Garden. Hell there was the small comparison between Zoro and Sanji and Brogi/Dory who are pretty evenly matched themselves. And now them fighting Kaku/Jabs who are more or less equal in their Rokushiki skills.
Yes I think the same but nobody here said that Sanji and Luffy are equal. Just because he ist the cook doesn´t mean that he is weaker than Zoro (maybe a little)
So for me
Luffy>Zoro>Sanji
but their is not as much difference between those -
@Octogon:
**Are you serious? I can only think of 2 people Zoro couldn't defeat. that being Enel and Buggy. Enel because of his logia Df and buggy is pretty much immune to blades.
He could've taken Alvida, Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong (if he wasn't injuried), Crocodile, and so on.
I consider luffy and zoro equal to each other.**
Well you have to consider that Don Krieg had that gold armor on; which I'm not exactly sure Zoro could have broken at that point, but otherwise, he could have beaten him. Arlong, I don't think even at full power, Zoro could have beaten him IMO. About Crocodile, I don't want to bring up a Crocodile vs "insert name here" argument , but I don't really see how Zoro could have beaten him. Would you mind explaining how?
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@Kidany:
Well you have to consider that Don Krieg had that gold armor on; which I'm not exactly sure Zoro could have broken at that point, but otherwise, he could have beaten him. Arlong, I don't think even at full power, Zoro could have beaten him IMO. About Crocodile, I don't want to bring up a Crocodile vs "insert name here" argument , but I don't really see how Zoro could have beaten him. Would you mind explaining how?
Swords + water = water swords!!!
Yeah, I know. Stupid.
Ever notice that a lot of "second-most-powerful" enemies have been sword-users?
Cabaji, the Meowbun Bros., Tashigi, Hachi, Mr. 1, Sarquiss, Ohm, Kaku? -
He could barely stand the weight of his own kicks. lets not choose to be totally ignorant here. It was implied that Sanji wouldn't have had as much of a tough time had he not been injured.
Hits from Gin could have done at least just as much damage as Pearl, I'd like to think.
Franky was having initial problems due to a lack of cola. And then being pushed into the waterfall. Once he was out of it, he simply destroyed Fukuro.
It may be an arbitrary measurement or whatever, but there is a reason it is there….to give an insight as to which are the most dangerous of the CP9 (without taking into account the DF powers)Even with full cola, it wasn't easy. Fukuro used his surroundings, that's part of fighting. Chopper even interfered when he tried his owl trick. So Franky ended up even saying that he was tough, and there's no way Sanji is simply more than twice as strong as Franky. Doriki could measure hitting power, but I doubt it would directly decide the outcome of the fights.
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@Octogon:
Are you serious? I can only think of 2 people Zoro couldn't defeat. that being Enel and Buggy. Enel because of his logia Df and buggy is pretty much immune to blades.
He could've taken Alvida, Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong (if he wasn't injuried), Crocodile, and so on.
I consider luffy and zoro equal to each other.
Yeah, I am serious. The only opponents Luffy fought that Zoro would be able to beat at the same point in the series are Alvida and Kreig without his armor if Zoro managed to avoid all of his weapons. Its not just coincidence that Luffy always gets the stronger opponent.
Kuro: Zoro doesn't have the range and can't match him in speed, and would get cut up.
Arlong: Gave Luffy a heck of a lot of trouble, and is far stronger than any other member of his crew. Zoro couldn't even put a scratch on him even though he was able to beat Hachi while still injured, and I highly doubt he would of been able to beat him at full strength. Plus it would of been lame and taken away from the whole arc if Zoro could of beaten him as well.
Crocodile: Luffy only survived being dried up because he was rubber/really durable. I'm pretty sure it killed everyone else it was used on and it probably would of killed Zoro. Zoros very durable, but I dont see how he would be able to survive it the same way Luffy did.
Enel: Only people who can beat him besides Luffy are other Logias are extremely strong characters like Mihawk and Whitebeard.
Lucci: Zoro couldn't beat him because hes currently struggling with Kaku, whos much weaker.
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i agree with octogon (with the allen iverson avatar) and aldrich about zoro,
i don't think sanji will fully beat jyabura and if he does he will be back in his legs after sanji goes to the gate of justice leaving zoro to beat both of them or even if that never happens i just want to see zoro learn soru just like luffy and sanji (if he uses soru when he is moving super fast) since his power has already grown just like the other straw hats (remember what kaku said about feeling a spirit of a wild animal inside him).
but as a zoro fan i don't see a point in continuing sanji's battle with jyabura.if you think it sanji is already moving super fast,he has breaken jyabura's tekkai and i think in some of his attacks that have part of the bodies as names he said third level so we now can know when he has become stronger (since the level will raise) so the only thing that is left for sanji to defeat jyab is time so why not sanji beat the crap out of jyab and then say to him "ready to take my fourth level attacks" and then collapse from his injuries and by that time zoro would have find his level up and not fully beaten kaku and then beat them both easily.but it is me just dreaming.
oh and robin in my opinion can't defeat a sea king so how can that make her stronger than sanji and zoro? and mihawk is THE BEST SWORDSMAN IS THE WORLD he can cut sea stone elements and everything he wants just like zoro will.i think at the end of the series zoro will have reachen mihawk's level but in order after a long fight he will defeat him cuz his sword will be stronger since he has to accomplish his dream and has to protect his nakama except of himself
and it doesn't matter if zoro or sanji could defeat luffy's ex rivals cuz eventually the will have to overpower them,but i think zoro could beat all of luffy's opponents except ener but it is until zoro learns how to cut through elements
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@Skull:
Yeah, I am serious. The only opponents Luffy fought that Zoro would be able to beat at the same point in the series are Alvida and Kreig without his armor if Zoro managed to avoid all of his weapons. Its not just coincidence that Luffy always gets the stronger opponent.
Of course it's not, Luffy chooses his oppenets knowing full well they are the leaders. and Zoro usually doesn't give a damn.
Kuro: Zoro doesn't have the range and can't match him in speed, and would get cut up.
Luffy couldn't match him in speed either, he wasn't even close. And you don't need to stretch to catch him. Zoro has to wait and listen and when kuro is near him, grab him.
Arlong: Gave Luffy a heck of a lot of trouble, and is far stronger than any other member of his crew. Zoro couldn't even put a scratch on him even though he was able to beat Hachi while still injured, and I highly doubt he would of been able to beat him at full strength. Plus it would of been lame and taken away from the whole arc if Zoro could of beaten him as well.
It seems you don't understand how much Zoro's wound weakned. Arlong was wondering how he was anble to stand. and even the Doctor commented on the wound. Zoro would have easily destroyed hatchi if not for his wound. He even commented numerous times how he was about to pass out.
Crocodile: Luffy only survived being dried up because he was rubber/really durable. I'm pretty sure it killed everyone else it was used on and it probably would of killed Zoro. Zoros very durable, but I dont see how he would be able to survive it the same way Luffy did.
I'd like to ask where the hell you got that from. Nothing like that has even been remotley hinted at.Zoro with knowledge of crocs weakness (wchich he would find out) he would beat croc.
Enel: Only people who can beat him besides Luffy are other Logias are extremely strong characters like Mihawk and Whitebeard.
agreed.
Lucci: Zoro couldn't beat him because hes currently struggling with Kaku, whos much weaker.
where did you get that? sure lucchi is stronger. but I doubt there is much of a differance between them.
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Hits from Gin could have done at least just as much damage as Pearl, I'd like to think.
If not more. Not taking it against Gin or anything, the guy was very skilled and very strong.
Even with full cola, it wasn't easy. Fukuro used his surroundings, that's part of fighting. Chopper even interfered when he tried his owl trick. So Franky ended up even saying that he was tough, and there's no way Sanji is simply more than twice as strong as Franky. Doriki could measure hitting power, but I doubt it would directly decide the outcome of the fights.
Nope i don't think so either. Rokushiki is a measure of the CP9's power/skill not the SHs.
@Octagon:
where did you get that? sure lucchi is stronger. but I doubt there is much of a differance between them.
nearly 200 douriki. Really though, why did Oda randomly bring the Douriki into this if not for a reason?
@psolaras - Just how long do you expect the Zoro-Kaku fight to go on for?
Or do you expect Sanji-Jabs to be over very quickly?
Sanji hasn't broken Tekkai btw. Not yet at least. -
I think thw whole power thing is subjective. Robin would lose to Crocodile, but Robin would defeat Arlong, who would beat the crap out of Crocodile (this isn't counting some factors like Arlong's haughtiness etc.). I always saw Luffy as slightly stronger then Zoro, but if we go my who defeats who the entire argument is meaningless, as it all depends on who they were fighting.
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I always thought luffy would be just a little bit stronger than zoro because earlier in the manga they said that zoro's ambition of being the worlds greatest swordsman was going to be hard to achieve but luffys was even greater.
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> you mean 2000. I know about the douriki but I seriously doubt that means luchi is twice as strong as kaku. thats just too much.
Nah, I can see it. IMO?
I think Kaku and Jya in thier zoan modes are about as strong as Lucchi is in his base mode. So normal Luffy, Sanji, and Zoro should all be having about the same difficulty (more or less) with thier opponents, which appears to be the case. Fairly even.
But Luffy still has the gears to turn up the volume when Lucchi uses his Zoan mode, to take their fight to a completely different level.
Zoro will most likely acquire some sort of new techniques that finishes Kaku quickly, but only after taking some serious injuries himself. So he will finish the fight in bad shape (as usual) but he will have made an incredible advancement. A repeat of the same battle would end much much quicker in Zoro's favor.
Sanji will probably get a stronger kick technique of some type that shatter's Jyabura's Tekkai, but im expected his growth to be below Luffy's gears and whatever revelation Zoro has concerning swordsmanship.
So ya, I think the douriki was very much put in to indicate thier relative strengths, and its easiest to use to compare with these 3 CP9 because they are all zoans, so thier strength increases from their devil fruit forms should all be relatively the same.
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But remember…all their non-zoan forms had those physical strengths. For all we know, the zoan modes could make the difference even greater or less. I think this douriki thing is clear indicator that Luffy > Zoro, rather than them being equals
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But remember…all their non-zoan forms had those physical strengths. For all we know, the zoan modes could make the difference even greater or less. I think this douriki thing is clear indicator that Luffy > Zoro, rather than them being equals
But remember, Luffy is fighting Lucci without his zoan form, whereas Zoro is fighting Kaku with his Zoan form, and we know that Zoan fruit is the best for a physical type of fighter according to Lucci - it amplifies thier strength.
So Kaku in his half-giraffe form may indeed be equal in strength to what we've seen from Lucci at this point. Zoro has yet to acquire his "powerup" that would allow him to keep up with the Gears that luffy has learned. So while the two of them may be out of balance at the moment, I don't expect it to last beyond the end of Zoro's battle with Kaku.
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When you people are talking about Kaku's strength don't forget his skill with swords makes him stronger than just douriki could measure, unlike Lucci and Jyabura who's body is their only means of attack.
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remember the sea stone sword i was babbling about a few threads back ?
zoro could use that upgrade and he'd be even with luffy
