If you put arms on your head and you get shorter, you still have a head.
Luffy & Zoro (Potential Spoilers)
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@Impel:
If you put arms on your head and you get shorter, you still have a head.
Chopper's body changes far more than just in height. Snug holds when he is in heavy point would be grasping empty air when he is in brain point and it might undo Robin's hold entirely since the surface her limb is sprouting from would be changing if not disappearing entirely in some instances.
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His body would still be there, so Robin's arm would still be attached.
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Chopper broke out of Kumadori's holds by changing form though..so doesnt that apply to being caught by Robin. The arms might not go away but the holds wouldnt be the same at all/would break.
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Robin could do the same to Luffy what she did to Franky :p. That's how she defeats the guys. And I don't think she loses to any girl, because her intellect probably far exceeds anyone else's.
Robin owns everyone =).
Erm nvm back to the topic, did anyone realise how Sanji is some "knight-in-shining-armour" who usually appears at the last minute, in the nick of time, to rescue everyone from doom? I don't think it's a coincidence, given his chivalrous character. It happened a few times before, like in Little Garden, but in Enies Lobby he really shone (though not many notice, unfortunately). He was first to make contact with Robin after she disappeared, he went on board the train when everyone else was caught fighting CP9 (the whole time believing in Robin, who tried to lie to him), he saved Usopp from almost being killed by Jyabura, and finally he was the one who opened the Seigi no Mon to cause whirlpools which would hinder the rest of the Buster Call's Fleet. I think Sanji has been given way too little credit here.
I'd say, like someone else suggested, Luffy >= Zoro >= Sanji. It seems the most plausible to me.
Regarding the post about the crew first losing badly to CP9 members, then suddenly gaining immense strength to fight them back, I don't think it was just a "sudden increase in strength". I think Nami summed it up very accurately: "They were weak before when they heard of Robin's betrayal, but after they hear the truth, they will become almost invincible!"
Which actually makes our discussion now pretty pointless. The reason for which they fight is what will give them the strength to do so. In OP, there's no one-strict determining factor about who's the most powerful and who's not, simply because Oda made it such that a person's ideals are what makes him who he is.
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i feel that the difference between zoro and sanji is alot because in movie 5, Zoro vs Sanji at the village. Even Sanji could nt even take Zoro's simple move like onigiri. And against luffy in the ocean dream arc. Luffys gomu gomu no bazzoka draw with Zoro's Sanzen Sekai. However Zoro emerged from the fight 1st and then later luffy, stating that zoro cut a big rock and it fell on luffy and he could nt get up. So perhaps the fight ended with a draw.
But yeah, ppl always like that luffy is stronger because he is the 1st character and always fights the strongest enemy of a certain crew
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i feel that the difference between zoro and sanji is alot because in movie 5, Zoro vs Sanji at the village. Even Sanji could nt even take Zoro's simple move like onigiri. And against luffy in the ocean dream arc. Luffys gomu gomu no bazzoka draw with Zoro's Sanzen Sekai. However Zoro emerged from the fight 1st and then later luffy, stating that zoro cut a big rock and it fell on luffy and he could nt get up. So perhaps the fight ended with a draw.
But yeah, ppl always like that luffy is stronger because he is the 1st character and always fights the strongest enemy of a certain crew
yea but that movie was filler….I don't think it should be taken seriously.
Wow this thread is suprisingly calm
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@Radical:
yea but that movie was filler….I don't think it should be taken seriously.
Wow this thread is suprisingly calm
dont jinx it! lol
Well also another reason why I dont want Luffy to be stronger then Zoro and Sanji, or much stronger then rest of the Strawhats is because that would be too well generic.
I know in most stories, its the main character that ends up being the strongest and leagues in front of his teammates. But then how boring would that be?
If Luffy became leagues in front of everyone else then people like Zoro, Sanji, Franky, and even Chopper and Ussopp would become useless. Sure they each still have their usefulness as cook, shipwright, doctor and so forth, but no matter how you look at it, one of the main components of OP is fighting.
Also if Luffy was leagues beyond, then wouldnt that make the fights everyone else have pointless? I know that Luffy obviously cannot be 2 places at once and take down every opponent but I dont want people saying, whatever Luffy could have taken him down too. Instead I prefer that each SH has their own enemy they can defeat. Sort of how like Sanji told Ussopp that he was the only one that could help Robin by sniping Spandam (except with enemies).
Didn't really read LOTR but in the movie I like how we had three main fighters of equal strength. (the swordsman, elf guy, dwarf). I think its so much more interesting if we had 2 or more main fighters then just one primary fighter that is leagues beyond his teammates.
Also my favourite characters are Luffy and Zoro so im biased
. But a better question here is who here in this thread isn't somewhat biased themselves? -
@Kma:
dont jinx it! lol
Well also another reason why I dont want Luffy to be stronger then Zoro and Sanji, or much stronger then rest of the Strawhats is because that would be too well generic.
I know in most stories, its the main character that ends up being the strongest and leagues in front of his teammates. But then how boring would that be?
If Luffy became leagues in front of everyone else then people like Zoro, Sanji, Franky, and even Chopper and Ussopp would become useless. Sure they each still have their usefulness as cook, shipwright, doctor and so forth, but no matter how you look at it, one of the main components of OP is fighting.
Also if Luffy was leagues beyond, then wouldnt that make the fights everyone else have pointless? I know that Luffy obviously cannot be 2 places at once and take down every opponent but I dont want people saying, whatever Luffy could have taken him down too. Instead I prefer that each SH has their own enemy they can defeat. Sort of how like Sanji told Ussopp that he was the only one that could help Robin by sniping Spandam (except with enemies).
Didn't really read LOTR but in the movie I like how we had three main fighters of equal strength. (the swordsman, elf guy, dwarf). I think its so much more interesting if we had 2 or more main fighters then just one primary fighter that is leagues beyond his teammates.
Also my favourite characters are Luffy and Zoro so im biased
. But a better question here is who here in this thread isn't somewhat biased themselves?I see what you mean.Thats one of the problems I had with dbz.Vegeta got no burn…
I doubt none of the strawhats strengths will ever seperate to th point that they can't defend themselves.Its quite obvious zoro will be up there with luffy.
Please don't downplay franky people.I think he's up there with them (I wish that lucchi incident never happened)......guess I'm a little bias two huh kma.Luffy and franky are my favs
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@Radical:
I see what you mean.Thats one of the problems I had with dbz.Vegeta got no burn…
Please don't downplay franky people.I think he's up there with them (I wish that lucchi incident never happened)......guess I'm a little bias two huh kma.Luffy and franky are my favs
Ya thats also one of the problems i had with DBZ too. At least Vegeta had some fights left though lol. Poor Krillen, Picolo, etc…
I think people are downplaying Franky and Sanji too much though. There seems to be a trend in most shounens (esp. DBZ, Shaman King, Naruto?, Bleach?)
teammate < main character
training ensues
teammate > main character
something happens (eg main character trains or something)
teammate < main character
well thats how I see it. im at water 7 again and Franky's first encounter with Blueno was MUCH MORE impressive then Luffy's first. Just look at this:
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Try to add some more ">>>>>" to that and you will not a have a Luffy VS Zoro but a Mihawk VS Zoro…
Considering that Mihawk is allegedly somewhere around Shanks' level and Shanks is one of the Four Emperors, I think that neither Luffy nor Zoro stack up anywhere even close to him at this point, even after their Enies Lobby power ups.
Well… If you can find proofs against the Wiskey Peak fact that show this "huge" gap between Luffy and Zoro, you are welcome
Way to miss the point entirely. My issues with Whiskey Peak are two-fold; first, it may as well have taken place during the Cretaceous Era for all of the relevance that it has to anything now. Whiskey Peak was like, almost 350 chapters ago. All of the characters have progressed a lot since then, so it has zero relevance in regards to character standings now. Secondly, I will never consider Whiskey Peak to be a "serious" fight between them because if it was, there would be no way in hell that Nami would have been able to interfere and punch them both out. For all that Luffy and Zoro may have been going all out and not holding back, it was not a serious fight with serious consequences in the same way that Luffy's fight with Usopp was; if so, Nami never should have been able to get anywhere even close to them, let alone punch them both in the head to end the fight.
So to make the assumption that Whiskey Peak is both relevant and serious, you would further have to deduce that Nami is actually "Teh Strongest" because – OMG! – she beat both Luffy and Zoro at Whiskey Peak in one hit! You could also make other wild claims along similar lines, like "Arlong is currently stronger than Zoro because Zoro couldn't beat Arlong during Arlong Park", or something equally ridiculous.
If your eyes can see wide, you should see that anytime Oda puts them in comparison, they result as equal or almost equal at least…
When does Oda ever really put them in comparison anymore? If anyone gets put into comparisons these days, it's Zoro and Sanji. That's how it's been ever since Little Garden, and that hasn't really changed since then. Zoro and Sanji are the ones who are the rivals, the ones who fight opponents of similar strength and the ones who always have to team up together…not Luffy and Zoro. Little Garden was actually probably the best example of the comparisons between Zoro and Sanji; not only did they have a competition over who could kill the biggest monster, but they were directly compared to Dorry and Brogy because of it as well. Also, unlike Whiskey Peak, this comparison continues throughout the series and is openly brought up again during the Davy Back Fight in the Groggy Ring.
So to me, the continuing rivalry/comparison between Zoro and Sanji within the manga is obvious, while the comparison between Luffy and Zoro has become practically non-existent. If you look at all of the big arcs, Luffy always ends up fighting the hugely powerful boss; Zoro and Sanji, however, are left to take on the next strongest characters, who are in turn typically similar in strength and skill to each other. This happened at Arlong Park (Hachi and Kuroobi), in Arabasta (Daz Bones and Bon Kurei), in Skypeia with the Priests, and most recently in Enies Lobby (Jyabura and Kaku). Luffy, by comparison, always fought against the guy with the glaring power gap over his minions: Arlong, Crocodile, Enel* and Rob Lucci.
So tell me where the opposite is shown.
I just did.
no the fact that u put Luffy >>> zoro makes u a Luffytard.
Until Zoro shows that he can stand up to techniques like Gear 2 and Gear 3, I don't really think that he can equate to Luffy anymore and at this point. Zoro is strong, fast, durable and an excellent swordsman who deserves the title of second best, but after Enies Lobby I think that Luffy has eclipsed the rest of the crew by a fair margin when it comes to combat, power and overall fighting prowess.
But if you honestly think that Zoro has anything that can stack up to Gear 2 or Gear 3…ho-kay, then. I'm forced to disagree, and disagree strongly. If that makes me a "Luffy-tard", then so be it. I'd rather be a Luffy-tard then instead of someone who still clings desperately onto this bizarre notion that Zoro and Luffy are complete equals because they had an abortive fight almost 350 chapters ago with no concrete winner between them, while at the same time ignoring the now significant gap in speed and destructive power in Luffy's favour brought on by his upgraded Gears.
I think Sanji has been given way too little credit here.
I do as well. I also don't think that it's a coincidence that Sanji always ends up being the "knight in shining armour" that shows up in the nick of time to save everyone. It's happened far too often now for it to be a mere coincidence, and I think that his lack of a real bounty image was also intentional on Oda's part to keep up this running theme of Sanji working covertly behind the scenes without anyone realising it until it's too late. It's genius, if you really think about it. Not only does Sanji actually having a bounty now please the Sanji fans who wanted him to have one, but his lack of a recognizable poster image still makes it possible to keep up the running theme of Sanji sneaking around in the background as the Straw Hats' spy without getting caught. It also maintains the running gag/status quo that Sanji + bounties = FAIL.
Also, I think that Sanji is getting seriously shafted by a lot of people in regards to Enies Lobby and his basic standing in strength and combat among the Straw Hats. I don't know where people get this idea that there is a huge power gap between Kaku and Jyabura that "proves" that Zoro is closer to Luffy's level while Sanji is lagging far behind. Without their DFs, Kaku had only a mere twenty douriki on Jyabura, and with their DFs it's impossible to say how they numerically compare to each other. I also don't think that Kaku's DF boosts his douriki value vastly over Jyabura's either. For one, Jyabura has a DF as well; on top of that, Kaku has far less experience with his DF than Jyabura, which showed in how he was still learning how to use it during his fight with Zoro. Jyabura also has a carnivorous zoan, which has been canonically stated to be naturally more vicious than a herbivorous zoan. So to me, I see Kaku and Jyabura as being practically equal or with a very slight power gap between them, much in the same way that I see Zoro and Sanji. It should also be noted that unlike Zoro, Sanji did not enter into his fight with Jyabura at %100 as by that point he was already injured after 'fighting' against Califa.
In OP, there's no one-strict determining factor about who's the most powerful and who's not, because Oda made it such that a person's ideals are what makes him who he is.
Word.
~ jj ~
*note: I will concede that Enel isn't a fair case by any means because Luffy was his 'natural enemy' while the others stood no chance against him and his crazy logia powaz.
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Until Zoro shows that he can stand up to techniques like Gear 2 and Gear 3, I don't really think that he can equate to Luffy anymore and at this point. Zoro is strong, fast, durable and an excellent swordsman who deserves the title of second best, but after Enies Lobby I think that Luffy has eclipsed the rest of the crew by a fair margin when it comes to combat, power and overall fighting prowess.
But if you honestly think that Zoro has anything that can stack up to Gear 2 or Gear 3…ho-kay, then. I'm forced to disagree, and disagree strongly. If that makes me a "Luffy-tard", then so be it. I'd rather be a Luffy-tard then instead of someone who still clings desperately onto this bizarre notion that Zoro and Luffy are complete equals because they had an abortive fight almost 350 chapters ago with no concrete winner between them, while at the same time ignoring the now significant gap in speed and destructive power in Luffy's favour brought on by his upgraded Gears.
I never stated that I thought they were equals I do belivie that Luffy with gear 2 and 3 are a bit ahead as u would see if read my personal ranking of the strawhats. But to imply that that Luffy is way ahead of Zoro and Sanji that I cannot agree with as most things point to those 3 being fairly close in power. And while Luffy got gears both Zoro and Sanji got their own major uppgrades lets not forget that.
And secondly Kakus DF seems to be underestimated he seemed to use it alot more and with better effect then both Jyabura and Lucci. Maybe its because he looked like shit, but still if I had to pick one of those 3 fruits with the EL fights as my base then it would be Kakus without a doubt.
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jumpalot, dude. Seriously. Three of those little > marks is not some huge, canyon-esque power gap of doom. That was mostly done on my part to show that I think that the power gap between Luffy and Zoro/Sanji is significantly greater than the comparably infinitesimal power gap between Zoro and Sanji. It wasn't done because I think that Luffy is the Lord God of High Combat that neither Zoro nor Sanji could even begin to compare to.
And while Luffy got gears both Zoro and Sanji got their own major uppgrades lets not forget that.
Everyone save for Franky and Robin got major upgrades this arc, not just the top three fighters. But at this point I'm not really sure what to make of Zoro or Sanji's upgrades yet, overall. We've seen a lot of Gear 2 and Gear 3 to make a good judgement on what it is and is potentially capable of, but comparatively speaking we've seen a relatively bare hint of Asura and primarily only one aspect of Diable Jambe. There may potentially be a lot more to both Asura and Diable Jambe that put them on closer footing to Luffy with his Gears, but at this point in time I don't think that anyone can say that with absolute certainty. Until we see more of both of those power ups – especially in regards to variety as like Luffy's higher level Gears, both Asura and Diable Jambe look like 'stances' and not actual 'attacks' – I'm personally uncomfortable with equating them to what we've already seen from Luffy so far.
And secondly Kakus DF seems to be underestimated […]
I don't think that it is, personally. To be honest, I think that Jyabura gets unfairly underestimated far more than Kaku. The general concession I've seen is closer to the idea that Kaku is way stronger than Jyabura in human form, and infinitely stronger than Jyabura in zoan form. Seriously, that's just something that I do not get at all.
~ jj ~
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Well, it' gonna be a long post, so I'll try my english skills at their best, but if I make mistakes, exuse my Italian english learned at school and most of all with videogames/internet!!i feel that the difference between zoro and sanji is alot because in movie 5, Zoro vs Sanji at the village. Even Sanji could nt even take Zoro's simple move like onigiri. And against luffy in the ocean dream arc. Luffys gomu gomu no bazzoka draw with Zoro's Sanzen Sekai. However Zoro emerged from the fight 1st and then later luffy, stating that zoro cut a big rock and it fell on luffy and he could nt get up. So perhaps the fight ended with a draw.
Yes!! Exactly!! Ok, it's only a filler and it doesn't mean too much, but just to say, even there we see Luffy = Zoro > Sanji…But yeah, ppl always like that luffy is stronger because he is the 1st character and always fights the strongest enemy of a certain crew
But Luffy's battles are always a lot harder than Zoro's, so it doesn't mean he is superior…
Considering that Mihawk is allegedly somewhere around Shanks' level and Shanks is one of the Four Emperors, I think that neither Luffy nor Zoro stack up anywhere even close to him at this point, even after their Enies Lobby power ups.
That's right… And 'cause you mentioned Shanks, I notice how even if Shanks is one of the Four Emperors (on the Pirate King range of power) is was pretty much equal to Mihawk that is the best swordsman... I think that Luffy and Zoro will end up the same way, being equal...
Way to miss the point entirely. My issues with Whiskey Peak are two-fold; first, it may as well have taken place during the Cretaceous Era for all of the relevance that it has to anything now.
Ok, maybe it happened too far in the past to still mean something nowadays…
But, at least, it prove that they were equal until that moment…
But I feel that Oda would make them equal even now…Whiskey Peak was like, almost 350 chapters ago. All of the characters have progressed a lot since then, so it has zero relevance in regards to character standings now.
Ok!! But it has relevance for the early arcs. At least we can say that they were equal at the time they entered into the Grand Line…
Secondly, I will never consider Whiskey Peak to be a "serious" fight between them because if it was, there would be no way in hell that Nami would have been able to interfere and punch them both out. For all that Luffy and Zoro may have been going all out and not holding back, it was not a serious fight with serious consequences in the same way that Luffy's fight with Usopp was; if so, Nami never should have been able to get anywhere even close to them, let alone punch them both in the head to end the fight.
They were serious, because they said it directly… Yes, Oda found a funny way to stop the fight, but they were using their full strength... What was the reason of the fight? Beside the misunderstanding, they were fighting to see who was the strongest of the two and trey realized to have the same strength... It was no sense to go on, and it would have bring them to kill each other, so Nami interrupted them in a funny way and then they undestood the misunderstanding and stopped the battle, it would have been dangerous to go on...
So to make the assumption that Whiskey Peak is both relevant and serious, you would further have to deduce that Nami is actually "Teh Strongest" because – OMG! – she beat both Luffy and Zoro at Whiskey Peak in one hit!
Nami is not the strongest, but when she get angry she is able to punch them away, she have done it many times in the humorous scenes… It's not a matter of strength, it's simply the fact that if Nami gets angry for money matters, she become dangerous...
Oda turned a serious fight in something funny to not have consequences… They were only testing their power... But look at Vivi and Carl and you see that they couldn't get close to them... And neither Mr.5 and Mrs. Valentine could do anything to stop them...You could also make other wild claims along similar lines, like "Arlong is currently stronger than Zoro because Zoro couldn't beat Arlong during Arlong Park", or something equally ridiculous.
I understood but it's the worst example…Zoro couldn't stand a chance against Arlong at Arlong Park only because he was BADLY injuried… Otherwise he would have been able to fight agains him just like Luffy did!!
When does Oda ever really put them in comparison anymore? If anyone gets put into comparisons these days, it's Zoro and Sanji. That's how it's been ever since Little Garden, and that hasn't really changed since then. Zoro and Sanji are the ones who are the rivals, the ones who fight opponents of similar strength and the ones who always have to team up together…not Luffy and Zoro. Little Garden was actually probably the best example of the comparisons between Zoro and Sanji; not only did they have a competition over who could kill the biggest monster, but they were directly compared to Dorry and Brogy because of it as well. Also, unlike Whiskey Peak, this comparison continues throughout the series and is openly brought up again during the Davy Back Fight in the Groggy Ring.
Zoro and Sanji comparison is a fact, but it's a "life rivalry", not a fight rivalry…
They actually never fought directly… Yes, it happened if fillers and movies and Zoro always owned Sanji, but Oda didn't make them fight, ever...
And I find instead other direct comparisons between Luffy and Zoro, I don't mean direct battles, but comparisons…
Apart from the Red Book equal power state, but even now, look for example to the Rocket Man travel, when they faced the tsunami of the Aqua Laguna… They destroyed it with some kind of same strength... And when Lucci defeated both of them at Water Seven... Nami said something like "not even those two..." referring to the fact that Lucci was too strong... As if they were the strongest of the crew but aren't anyway able to win...
And, yes, we don't have much more until now… But we have a direct battle Luffy VS Zoro, and don't actually have a Zoro VS Sanji instead...
And the fact they fight similar enemies (Zoro ones are anyway stronger) don't mean they are much weaker then Luffy, Zoro in particular, because their battles are always easier than Luffy's…So to me, the continuing rivalry/comparison between Zoro and Sanji within the manga is obvious, while the comparison between Luffy and Zoro has become practically non-existent.
Apart from some little things… But even Zoro and Sanji doesn't have direct comparison... Their challenges are always undirect... Beginning from the one at Little Garden... Killing a dinosaur is not the same to fight each other... Infact the comparison with the Dori and Brogi hunting is between Zoro and Sanji, but the direct fight between the two giants is a lot more similar to the battle of Luffy and Zoro at Wiskey Peak (the anime adds even the "aura clash")!!
If you look at all of the big arcs, Luffy always ends up fighting the hugely powerful boss; Zoro and Sanji, however, are left to take on the next strongest characters, who are in turn typically similar in strength and skill to each other.
Yes!! But Luffy has always a very harder time defeating those big bosses than Zoro and somehow even Sanji… So it can't be a proof of strength, but only of roles... Luffy is the main character, so he takes the bosses... Simple...
This happened at Arlong Park (Hachi and Kuroobi), in Arabasta (Daz Bones and Bon Kurei), in Skypeia with the Priests, and most recently in Enies Lobby (Jyabura and Kaku). Luffy, by comparison, always fought against the guy with the glaring power gap over his minions: Arlong, Crocodile, Enel* and Rob Lucci.
Well, at Arlong Park Zoro was equal to Sanji only because he was injuried and barely standed…
Then, in the following arcs Zoro takes always weaker enemies but also with lower effort than Luffy...I just did.
Not exactly… There's nothing in what you said that shows a difference between Luffy's and Zoro's STRENGTH, but only in their ROLES... Main character and first mate...
But where do you see that Luffy is stronger?Until Zoro shows that he can stand up to techniques like Gear 2 and Gear 3, I don't really think that he can equate to Luffy anymore and at this point. Zoro is strong, fast, durable and an excellent swordsman who deserves the title of second best, but after Enies Lobby I think that Luffy has eclipsed the rest of the crew by a fair margin when it comes to combat, power and overall fighting prowess.
Due to the Gears you said?
So it means, as other people said, that Luffy is still pretty much equal to Zoro in base form and that Luffy gets quite stronger than him with Gears…But you are forgetting Ashura…
But if you honestly think that Zoro has anything that can stack up to Gear 2 or Gear 3…ho-kay, then. I'm forced to disagree, and disagree strongly. If that makes me a "Luffy-tard", then so be it. I'd rather be a Luffy-tard then instead of someone who still clings desperately onto this bizarre notion that Zoro and Luffy are complete equals because they had an abortive fight almost 350 chapters ago with no concrete winner between them, while at the same time ignoring the now significant gap in speed and destructive power in Luffy's favour brought on by his upgraded Gears.
Well, yes, Zoro has something with he can rival Gears… And so he can be equal to Luffy even now...
As I said, it's Ashura…
Too bad, Kaku is not able to stand Ashura and collapsed soon, but with an opponent like Lucci you would have seen what Ashura is really capable of…
But do you see how powerful Ashura is?
With that power Zoro blocked Rankyaku Amanedachi (a power able to cut the tower in half with ease) with only A SWORD SWING!!!!!!!!! :blink:
And that Rankyaku (the strongest of all CP9) has a power that as destructive capacity is quite close to Lucci's power range…
And do you really think that Ashura power isn't able to stand a chance against Gears?I don't know where people get this idea that there is a huge power gap between Kaku and Jyabura that "proves" that Zoro is closer to Luffy's level while Sanji is lagging far behind. Without their DFs, Kaku had only a mere twenty douriki on Jyabura, and with their DFs it's impossible to say how they numerically compare to each other. I also don't think that Kaku's DF boosts his douriki value vastly over Jyabura's either. For one, Jyabura has a DF as well; on top of that, Kaku has far less experience with his DF than Jyabura, which showed in how he was still learning how to use it during his fight with Zoro. Jyabura also has a carnivorous zoan, which has been canonically stated to be naturally more vicious than a herbivorous zoan. So to me, I see Kaku and Jyabura as being practically equal or with a very slight power gap between them, much in the same way that I see Zoro and Sanji. It should also be noted that unlike Zoro, Sanji did not enter into his fight with Jyabura at %100 as by that point he was already injured after 'fighting' against Califa.
Yes!! It's all true… But you are forgetting something...
The Doriki measure that states Kaku to be only 20 above Jabura doesn't show the true gap between them... Doriki doesn't count the skills with swords and Kaku is a swordsman... So, without the swords and using only Rokushiki Kaku is only a little bit stronger than Jabura, but with the swords, the gap grows quite a bit... Because Kaku himself said that his true power is with swords...And anyway, this doesn't prove that Zoro is weaker that Luffy because his fight is a lot easier than Luffy's...
*note: I will concede that Enel isn't a fair case by any means because Luffy was his 'natural enemy' while the others stood no chance against him and his crazy logia powaz.
Yes… You are right and that's the only reason because Luffy could fight him and Zoro couldn't...
Until we see more of both of those power ups – especially in regards to variety as like Luffy's higher level Gears, both Asura and Diable Jambe look like 'stances' and not actual 'attacks' – I'm personally uncomfortable with equating them to what we've already seen from Luffy so far.
Well, but Zoro's Ashura is not a mere "stance", it's a swords style, like Santooryu… It's Kyuutoryu, the 9 swords style... And there are more mover than Ichibugin for sure...
I think we'll see that Ashura is not waeker than Gears at all… -
I think that maybe Zoro hasn't perfected Asura yet. I think that when Zoro has perfected Asura then he will be equal with Luffy in Gear2/3 mode.
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So you said… You mean that Kaku with his swords skill was stronger than Jyabura???
So why... Just cause you have swords skill doesn't mean that you are more skilled than a martial artist... Jyabaru looks like one...
and you are forgot about Tekkai Kenpo...
Like jinjue said… there are a lot more hints comparing Zoro to Sanji... and I don't mean that Luffy is that far stronger
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I don't know about Kaku and Jyabura, but going off the strength of the upgrades, I'd have to say Zoro's Asura is for sure the stronger
It took Sanji two attacks with his upgrade to finish off Jyabura, and he took an injury (5 fingers) to the chest while doing it.
Zoro basically vaporized both Kaku and his giant wave in one shot with his upgrade, ending the fight practically instantaneously
I honestly think the upgrades actually further seperated Luffy and Zoro from Sanji. Not that Sanji didn't take a big leap forward, but Luffy and Zoro's upgrades seem to be far more powerful.
Well, but Zoro's Ashura is not a mere "stance", it's a swords style, like Santooryu… It's Kyuutoryu, the 9 swords style... And there are more mover than Ichibugin for sure...
I think we'll see that Ashura is not waeker than Gears at all…My opinion as well - Zoro's next big fight with a third sword will tell the tale though, but IMO, I think it's fairly obvious that his Asura stance will have upgraded versions of practically all his old moves the same way Luffy does with Gear 2 and 3.
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I don't know about Kaku and Jyabura, but going off the strength of the upgrades, I'd have to say Zoro's Asura is for sure the stronger
It took Sanji two attacks with his upgrade to finish off Jyabura, and he took an injury (5 fingers) to the chest while doing it.
Zoro basically vaporized both Kaku and his giant wave in one shot with his upgrade, ending the fight practically instantaneously
I honestly think the upgrades actually further seperated Luffy and Zoro from Sanji. Not that Sanji didn't take a big leap forward, but Luffy and Zoro's upgrades seem to be far more powerful.
I thought Asura was almost to powerful considering how powerful Kakus attack seemed to be. Kinda annoying that he waited forever in using it also didn't make sense at all considering the situation.
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OK lets put it this way
we all agree that
GEAR 2 = GEAR 3 right?
well not exactly equal but both have their advantages right? although Gear 3 is a higher number we should all know it does not mean it is superior to Gear 2.
NOW LETS EXAMINE SOMETHINGWhen Luffy first activates Gear 2 its against Blueno, ~800 Douriki. UNLIKE Zoro's ASURA the match did not end in a ONE HIT KO (against a much stronger opponent too). So really until there is more evidence about ASURA or DIABLE JAMBLE for that matter you CANNOT SAY Gear 2 or 3 are greater upgrades then Asura and Diable Jambe. Also no matter how you look at it Whiskey Peak was a serious fight. If you understand anything about Luffy and Zoro's attitudes towards fights they would never go easy on a strong opponent especially if they are your nakama. Showing sympathy or holding back against your opponent is an insult, Luffy and Zoro both know that. Also they would know that if one of them went easy on each other that person would get seriously harmed.
Also Whiskey Peak does still have relevance. Why? because back in East Blue everyone thought Luffy > Zoro. Most people were shocked that they could equal each other. Arlong was sort of like Enel in East Blue and this time Luffy's advantage over Arlong was NOT having a huge wound across his body.
@JJ if you want more comparisons about Luffy and Zoro I will dig it up my posts from the old threads.
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I think that maybe Zoro hasn't perfected Asura yet. I think that when Zoro has perfected Asura then he will be equal with Luffy in Gear2/3 mode.
:wassat: But what makes you think that Luffy has mastered Gears better than Zoro with Ashura?
So you said… You mean that Kaku with his swords skill was stronger than Jyabura???
So why... Just cause you have swords skill doesn't mean that you are more skilled than a martial artist... Jyabaru looks like one...
and you are forgot about Tekkai Kenpo...
I only mean that if Doriki values Kaku to be only a little stronger than Jabura, it can't be accurate because Doriki value all the CP9 like martial artists, because they measure the ability with only Rokushiki… But Kaku is a swordsman and Doriki don't value the swordsmanship...
So as a martial artist Kaku is only a little above Jabura (probably due to his Rankyaku skill), but with swords he is quite stronger... Kaku himself said that his true power is with swords!!Like jinjue said… there are a lot more hints comparing Zoro to Sanji... and I don't mean that Luffy is that far stronger
Yes, Zoro and Sanji might be close now, but Luffy is not above Zoro, or at least thats nothing that proves it… They are equal in base form, they both have a power up, Gears and Ashura...
I don't know about Kaku and Jyabura, but going off the strength of the upgrades, I'd have to say Zoro's Asura is for sure the stronger
It took Sanji two attacks with his upgrade to finish off Jyabura, and he took an injury (5 fingers) to the chest while doing it.
Zoro basically vaporized both Kaku and his giant wave in one shot with his upgrade, ending the fight practically instantaneously
I honestly think the upgrades actually further seperated Luffy and Zoro from Sanji. Not that Sanji didn't take a big leap forward, but Luffy and Zoro's upgrades seem to be far more powerful.
Yes, I agree… But I think that Ashura is not better than Gears... It's an evolution of Zoro skills, just like Luffy with Gears...
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@Kma:
OK lets put it this way
we all agree that
GEAR 2 = GEAR 3 right?
well not exactly equal but both have their advantages right? although Gear 3 is a higher number we should all know it does not mean it is superior to Gear 2.
NOW LETS EXAMINE SOMETHINGWhen Luffy first activates Gear 2 its against Blueno, ~800 Douriki. UNLIKE Zoro's ASURA the match did not end in a ONE HIT KO (against a much stronger opponent too). So really until there is more evidence about ASURA or DIABLE JAMBLE for that matter you CANNOT SAY Gear 2 or 3 are greater upgrades then Asura and Diable Jambe.
Of course one can only speculate but Gear 3 seemed to be extremly powerful. Luffy basically owned Lucci with one gear 3 attack only luck saved him and Lucci of course were alot stronger then Kaku and wolfie. But on the otherhand it has a negative effect something that Asura and Diable Jambe didn't seem to have. Personally though I consider gear 3 to be the most destructive move that we have seen from the strawhats so far.
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Of course one can only speculate but Gear 3 seemed to be extremly powerful. Luffy basically owned Lucci with one gear 3 attack only luck saved him and Lucci of course were alot stronger then Kaku and wolfie. But on the otherhand it has a negative effect something that Asura and Diable Jambe didn't seem to have. Personally though I consider gear 3 to be the most destructive move that we have seen from the strawhats so far.
No doubt that in terms of destructive power Gear 3 is greater then Gear 2.
BUT as Lucci said himself he sacrifices strength for speed and trust me I think speed is more valuable in real fights. I box and if you cant even hit your opponent then theres no point of a "strong punch." Its all about combinations in close combat.
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Of course one can only speculate but Gear 3 seemed to be extremly powerful. Luffy basically owned Lucci with one gear 3 attack only luck saved him and Lucci of course were alot stronger then Kaku and wolfie. But on the otherhand it has a negative effect something that Asura and Diable Jambe didn't seem to have. Personally though I consider gear 3 to be the most destructive move that we have seen from the strawhats so far.
Yes, the destructive power isn't the only thing that matters, because Gear 3 has an heavy drawback that makes it dangerous to use…
And, anyway, we don't know if it's actually powerful than Ashura Ichibugin or another 9 swords move...BUT as Lucci said himself he sacrifices strength for speed and trust me I think speed is more valuable in real fights. I box and if you cant even hit your opponent then theres no point of a "strong punch." Its all about combinations in close combat.
That's right!!! It would be a lot dangerous for Luffy to use it against Zoro… If Luffy hits Zoro, he would probably win, even if Zoro is in Ashura form... But if Zoro dodges it, Luffy is doomed... -
@Kma:
No doubt that in terms of destructive power Gear 3 is greater then Gear 2.
BUT as Lucci said himself he sacrifices strength for speed and trust me I think speed is more valuable in real fights. I box and if you cant even hit your opponent then theres no point of a "strong punch." Its all about combinations in close combat.
Yes I meant more that Gear 3 is Luffys one punch KO attack and he would have gotten rid of Lucci in one attack if not for that boat.
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Luffy is just a tiny bit better.
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Lol @ jinjue saying he hates these kinds of threads, then replying with the big posts above.
If OIP gets a whiff of this thread, we'll have a repeat of the thread that got closed, which went on for about 50-60 pages. I really wouldn't continue this…
... actually, I would once started. But you guys don't have to.
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Luffy is just a tiny bit better.
Maybe… Or maybe not... Nothing proves it...
If OIP gets a whiff of this thread, we'll have a repeat of the thread that got closed, which went on for about 50-60 pages. I really wouldn't continue this…
... actually, I would once started. But you guys don't have to.
:wassat: What's wrong in long and debated threads?
I'm new here but I guess that threads like this won't be a problem until we respect each others… Even if we passionally debate... -
I think its really best that we leave this topic though…
What I mean is that I respect your guys opinions, people just see things presented to them in different ways. In fact Im glad to be able to discuss about this topic with you guys cause I enjoy doing so but I fear where this thread might be headed. Im going to try to not post anything anymore BUT I know i wont be able to...
Anyways for the record I believe Luffy = Zoro and
Sanji weaker then Zoro by an INCREDIBLY SMALL MARGIN that lets say out of 100 fights 49 would be Sanji's.
(not Luffy caus hes rubber and I kicks work that well against him) -
This post is deleted!
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@goldsaint13:
That's right… And 'cause you mentioned Shanks, I notice how even if Shanks is one of the Four Emperors (on the Pirate King range of power) is was pretty much equal to Mihawk that is the best swordsman... I think that Luffy and Zoro will end up the same way, being equal...…
QFT. It was said that "Hawkeye's" and Red-Hair were equals, how ironic for our heroes inspirations to be equal and at the same time Luffy and Zoro are equals.
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QFT. It was said that "Hawkeye's" and Red-Hair were equals, how ironic for our heroes inspirations to be equal and at the same time Luffy and Zoro are equals.
I thought it was said that Mihawk and Shanks were rivals not equals.
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Oh, I am sorry. They were rivals, Shanks being a rival to the Strongest swordsman in the world is pretty impressive.
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@Kma:
I think its really best that we leave this topic though…
What I mean is that I respect your guys opinions, people just see things presented to them in different ways. In fact Im glad to be able to discuss about this topic with you guys cause I enjoy doing so but I fear where this thread might be headed. Im going to try to not post anything anymore BUT I know i wont be able to...
:wassat: I still don't undestrand what's wrong with this thread if we respect each others…
Anyways for the record I believe Luffy = Zoro and
Sanji weaker then Zoro by an INCREDIBLY SMALL MARGIN that lets say out of 100 fights 49 would be Sanji's.
(not Luffy caus hes rubber and I kicks work that well against him) Yes, that's probably the truth… I think that Sanji used to be quite weaker than Luffy and Zoro, but I guess he is getting closer and closer...
But if he can fight Zoro, it's not the same with Luffy due to the rubber thing...QFT. It was said that "Hawkeye's" and Red-Hair were equals, how ironic for our heroes inspirations to be equal and at the same time Luffy and Zoro are equals.
Exactly!!!
I think that it's a good hint… Luffy and Zoro will probably get stronger than Shanks and Mihawk and they will be still equal in the end... I noticed it since Shanks and Mihawk were shown as rivals...I thought it was said that Mihawk and Shanks were rivals not equals.
Being rivals means that it's not easy to undestand who's stronger and it means at least an almost equal power or equal at all… The same for Luffy and Zoro...
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@goldsaint13:
Being rivals means that it's not easy to undestand who's stronger and it means at least an almost equal power or equal at all… The same for Luffy and Zoro...
It can mean alot of things powerwise there are rivalries where one side is vastly superior to the other, but as it was presented I would tend to agree with you that they are fairly close in power.
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Yes!! Exactly!! Ok, it's only a filler and it doesn't mean too much, but just to say, even there we see Luffy = Zoro > Sanji…
Filler = bollocks. Always. There is no grey area here, period. If you fail to understand this, be prepared to never be taken seriously.
And 'cause you mentioned Shanks, I notice how even if Shanks is one of the Four Emperors (on the Pirate King range of power) is was pretty much equal to Mihawk that is the best swordsman… I think that Luffy and Zoro will end up the same way, being equal...
Speculation.
But I feel that Oda would make them equal even now…
More speculation.
But it has relevance for the early arcs. At least we can say that they were equal at the time they entered into the Grand Line…
I'm not contesting this. But it has no relevance whatsoever on their current standing now.
They were serious, because they said it directly…
Then you must be forced to conclude that Nami is 'better' than Luffy and Zoro because she beat them both in their oh so "serious" fight.
It was no sense to go on, and it would have bring them to kill each other, so Nami interrupted them in a funny way and then they undestood the misunderstanding and stopped the battle […] Nami is not the strongest, but when she get angry she is able to punch them away, she have done it many times in the humorous scenes…
Thank you for further hammering my point down for me.
Oda turned a serious fight in something funny to not have consequences…
Which to me just proved how not serious it was to begin with. This is especially true now that we have the 'gold standard' of serious Nakama in-fighting with Luffy and Usopp, which no one was able to interfere in and did have serious consequences.
I understood but it's the worst example…
It makes just as much sense as gauging current strength levels between Luffy and Zoro using an event that took place almost 350 chapters ago.
Zoro couldn't stand a chance against Arlong at Arlong Park only because he was BADLY injuried… Otherwise he would have been able to fight agains him just like Luffy did!
Even more speculation.
Zoro and Sanji comparison is a fact, but it's a "life rivalry", not a fight rivalry…
Wait…what? No seriously, what? Where are you getting this? Actually, don't answer that. It's rhetorical and I would really rather not know.
And I find instead other direct comparisons between Luffy and Zoro, I don't mean direct battles, but comparisons…
I really haven't seen any of any note, let alone any that come close to the blatant comparisons between Zoro and Sanji. Also, aside from the Grand Characters reference from what you've listed it seriously looks like you're grasping at straws.
But we have a direct battle Luffy VS Zoro […]
Which may as well have taken place a hundred years ago for all of the relevance that it has now.
[…] and don't actually have a Zoro VS Sanji instead…
And we likely never will. Regardless, the direct and continuing comparisons between the two should be obvious by now.
And the fact they fight similar enemies (Zoro ones are anyway stronger)
Not by much, and certainly not so much as the gap between the enemies that Luffy faces. I also think that Zoro is stronger than Sanji to begin with, so I don't see what you're trying to say here.
Zoro in particular, because their battles are always easier than Luffy's…
And yet Zoro still almost always manages to barely, just barely, overcome his own enemies, which are in turn typically vastly weaker than Luffy's enemies overall. He so often has to end up pulling out some total desperation move to save himself, like cutting the "breath" of steel or Asura, that I completely fail to see how this makes his battles so much easier than Luffy's. Seriously, Zoro is almost always getting tore up something fierce in his fights when compared to Luffy or Sanji.
But even Zoro and Sanji doesn't have direct comparison…
Again…what? Are we even reading the same series here?
Well, at Arlong Park Zoro was equal to Sanji only because he was injuried and barely standed…
Yet again, speculation.
There's nothing in what you said that shows a difference between Luffy's and Zoro's STRENGTH […] But where do you see that Luffy is stronger?
I'm really getting tired of repeating myself; read my older posts. And actually read them this time instead of just quoting them while ignoring or twisting everything that they actually say to suit your own fan-vision.
Well, yes, Zoro has something with he can rival Gears… And so he can be equal to Luffy even now...As I said, it's Ashura...
SPECULATION. We've yet to see what Asura is fully capable of; until we do, we can only speculate as to how it compares to what we've actually seen from Luffy's Gears.
but with an opponent like Lucci you would have seen what Ashura is really capable of…
…I have no words for this.
Doriki doesn't count the skills with swords and Kaku is a swordsman…Because Kaku himself said that his true power is with swords...
…
-sigh-
And anyway, this doesn't prove that Zoro is weaker that Luffy because his fight is a lot easier than Luffy's…
Nor does it prove that Zoro is Luffy's equal, especially when you consider that Zoro was Kaku's bitch for much of that fight until he pulled Asura out at the very end. Also, this implication that Zoro could beat Lucci…if I didn't know that you were serious, I'd swear you were doing it for the lulz.
You are right and that's the only reason because Luffy could fight him and Zoro couldn't…
This is, what…the sixth time I've said "speculation" in this post now? Che.
I think we'll see that Ashura is not waeker than Gears at all…
Wait for it…speculation.
~ * ~
Also Whiskey Peak does still have relevance. Why? because back in East Blue everyone thought Luffy > Zoro.
Dude. DOOD. How long has it been since they were in East Blue? Beyond that, you again showed just how little relevance Whiskey Peak has if you're trying to compare post-Enies Lobby Grand Line with the pissant little ocean that is East Blue. Seriously.
Lol @ jinjue saying he hates these kinds of threads, then replying with the big posts above.
First, I'm a girl.
Second, the reason why I hate these kinds of threads is because of exactly what goldsaint13 has been pulling in every single one of his/her posts. Fanboy logic, extreme speculation and selective vision/memory amount to nothing more than moonbeams and pixie dust when it comes to these sorts of debates, and I'm ashamed at myself for trying to actually discourse with him/her because I should have known from the get go that it would have about as much effect as talking to a brick wall. A brick wall of rabid fantardism.
Yeah, I said it. But if the shoe fits, and all that rot…
I'm with Kma now. I've said my piece, and I'm not going to bother wasting any more time explaining what should by now be bloody obvious to anyone who actually reads the series instead of fangasming with selective vision over specific characters because of something that took place a million years ago. If anyone wants to go pfft at me, do it via PM because as of this post I'm through with the absolute ridiculousness that is the "logic" behind so much of this thread.
~ jj ~
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jinjue disregarding statements because u see them as speculation is silly as there are no real facts in a discussion like this. Oda has never stated Luffy as being stronger or them being equals everything is speculation and personal opinion at this point so being condescending is really unnecessary.
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Luffy Zoro and Sanji will always win the fights they have to win, and that's all I'm thinking about it. Trying to compare them has no point ; we know that they'll always be on the winning side in the end, and that's all that matters to them.
Can you imagine Zoro saying to Luffy "Listen, I'm tired to see you taking the strongest bad guy for yourself, people are going to think badly of me." ? -
jj this is by no means to insult you
but Im sure your biasness towards Luffy has made you percieve the manga in a totally different way then the people who think that Luffy = Zoro. Thats the problem with these threads, no one is going to convince anyone.
from what I just read from your last post was a huge rant, contradicting your original post and even though you tried to answer most of the posts you still failed to regard many other good facts presented as well. Also the fact that you reverted to insults and calling other peoples facts as bullocks or something else kind of makes it hard to take your posts seriously.
What Im saying is that dont expect people to respect your opinions when you considering answering ours a "waste of time"
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I just say it once again but I speculate
Luffy>=Zoro>=Sanji
Gear2/3 >= Ashura >= Diable Jambe
Just cause that Sanji need to kicks to defeat Jyabura doesn' mean anything… The first move was for me just a showstopper move to realize the power... It was "just" a kick into the stomach/chest
Like someone said... Luffy even has to make more than one move in Gear 2 against Blueno...
That's why I'm calling them even with maybe a slight gap!
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Guess I did jinx it after all huh kma
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First, I'm a girl.
Second, the reason why I hate these kinds of threads is because of exactly what goldsaint13 has been pulling in every single one of his/her posts. Fanboy logic, extreme speculation and selective vision/memory amount to nothing more than moonbeams and pixie dust when it comes to these sorts of debates, and I'm ashamed at myself for trying to actually discourse with him/her because I should have known from the get go that it would have about as much effect as talking to a brick wall. A brick wall of rabid fantardism.
Ah… sorry, I thought you were a guy.
I knew it would come to this. You should meet OIP...
Basically, my above post says to let this debate go... before it gets out of hand, which it has. Wait a little longer for better facts.
Let the others rant on. (I hate the word "fanboy" because it's like using "n00b", which I find highly childish and dumb.)
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Ok, ok, ok…
I undestood...
Most of what we say is speculation...
But it's a forum and we are here to discuss our opinions...So what's wrong in some good speculation anyway?
I'll try to answer a few things, just to discuss...
Filler = bollocks. Always. There is no grey area here, period. If you fail to understand this, be prepared to never be taken seriously.
Well, whatever you say, but even if fillers is often crap, thay are anyway official and sometimes even funny to watch at…
And, also, how do you know that Oda is not agree on what we see on fillers?
Remember that, for example, the filler with Daddy Masterson, the gunner bounty hunter with the little daughter, is not a proper filler, because it's taken from that One Piece novel, the second one…I'm not contesting this. But it has no relevance whatsoever on their current standing now.
Ok… It hasn't... But we can speculate about it anyway...
Then you must be forced to conclude that Nami is 'better' than Luffy and Zoro because she beat them both in their oh so "serious" fight.
Which to me just proved how not serious it was to begin with. This is especially true now that we have the 'gold standard' of serious Nakama in-fighting with Luffy and Usopp, which no one was able to interfere in and did have serious consequences.
The battle was serious in terms of strength employed… They were fighting at full power to establish who was stronger... Nothing more... But Oda then turned it in the funny way by the time Nami interrupted them...
It makes just as much sense as gauging current strength levels between Luffy and Zoro using an event that took place almost 350 chapters ago.
It doesn't have a lot to do with their strength now, but it states that Oda made them equal at least once…
Wait…what? No seriously, what? Where are you getting this? Actually, don't answer that. It's rhetorical and I would really rather not know.
I only mean that the rivalry between Zoro and Sanji clearly exist but isn't related to direct challenge battles…
I really haven't seen any of any note, let alone any that come close to the blatant comparisons between Zoro and Sanji. Also, aside from the Grand Characters reference from what you've listed it seriously looks like you're grasping at straws.
Yes, no one is saying that Zoro and Sanji are not rivals… But their strength is never directly compared...
And yes... The Grand Characters stated Luffy and Zoro to be equal and Sanji to be a little weaker... But it refers to the facts until Alabasta arc. I guess...
And yet Zoro still almost always manages to barely, just barely, overcome his own enemies, which are in turn typically vastly weaker than Luffy's enemies overall. He so often has to end up pulling out some total desperation move to save himself, like cutting the "breath" of steel or Asura, that I completely fail to see how this makes his battles so much easier than Luffy's. Seriously, Zoro is almost always getting tore up something fierce in his fights when compared to Luffy or Sanji.
Well… I can show you what I say...
Zoro's enemies are quite weaker than Luffy's, but Zoro wins even quite easier…
The only times that Zoro is close to death are the following:
Mihawk: Zoro is owned by Mihawk that is a lot stronger than any enemy fought by Luffy until now…
Hachan: Zoro was already badly injuried by the battle against Mihawk and barely standed… Thet's why he has the same trouble had by Luffy with Arlong that is quite stronger than Hachan...
Mr.One: Zoro is close to death and barely wins using the steel-cutting new power…
But keep in mind that Mr.One would have been an hard battle even for Luffy… But most of all... It's true that Crocodile is stronger that Mr.One, but while Zoro won getting close to death, Luffy has been defeated TWICE by Crocodile and if he wouldn't have been saved, he was dead... No one has saved Zoro from Mr.One... He didn't need another chance... Zoro defeated Mr.One the first and only time...I'm really getting tired of repeating myself; read my older posts. And actually read them this time instead of just quoting them while ignoring or twisting everything that they actually say to suit your own fan-vision.
Ok, you follow the way of "facts and not speculations"…
And facts is what I'm trying to give you...SPECULATION. We've yet to see what Asura is fully capable of; until we do, we can only speculate as to how it compares to what we've actually seen from Luffy's Gears.
Yes, and for example we see Ashura form that blocks that devasting Rankyaku with a swing… I say "not bad", just to speculate about it...
Nor does it prove that Zoro is Luffy's equal, especially when you consider that Zoro was Kaku's bitch for much of that fight until he pulled Asura out at the very end. Also, this implication that Zoro could beat Lucci…if I didn't know that you were serious, I'd swear you were doing it for the lulz.
I never said that Zoro defeats Kaku easily… But easier than what it takes to Luffy to defeat Lucci... Nothing more...
Zoro could do the same as Luffy against Lucci to me simply because I think that Ashura is equal to Gears... I know, it's speculation, but until we see them fighting each other or until Oda says something about it, we can only speculate...Second, the reason why I hate these kinds of threads is because of exactly what goldsaint13 has been pulling in every single one of his/her posts. Fanboy logic, extreme speculation and selective vision/memory amount to nothing more than moonbeams and pixie dust when it comes to these sorts of debates, and I'm ashamed at myself for trying to actually discourse with him/her because I should have known from the get go that it would have about as much effect as talking to a brick wall. A brick wall of rabid fantardism.
I'm a guy!!
I don't think you can judge me as a brick wall, I think to be open to share opinions with you all… There are people noticing that probably Sanji is getting closer and closer to Zoro in strength and I'm beginning to understand that they might be right, or not, but I consider the opinion...
Until yesterday I have been convinced that in a serious fight Zoro would have defeated Sanji without too much problems… But maybe I'm wrong... I don't know...
At the same time I'm convinced that Luffy and Zoro are still equal like they were in the beginning and always will be until the very end…
I can still be wrong, but I bring on my opinion giving facts and also a bit of good speculation!!Luffy Zoro and Sanji will always win the fights they have to win, and that's all I'm thinking about it. Trying to compare them has no point ; we know that they'll always be on the winning side in the end, and that's all that matters to them.
Of course… :happy:
And that's another reason why Zoro would have defeated Luffy's enemies as well if he would had to…Can you imagine Zoro saying to Luffy "Listen, I'm tired to see you taking the strongest bad guy for yourself, people are going to think badly of me." ?
I would like to hear it a lot!!
It would be even a good reason for them to fight again!!I just say it once again but I speculate
Luffy>=Zoro>=Sanji
Gear2/3 >= Ashura >= Diable Jambe
Just cause that Sanji need to kicks to defeat Jyabura doesn' mean anything… The first move was for me just a showstopper move to realize the power... It was "just" a kick into the stomach/chest
Like someone said... Luffy even has to make more than one move in Gear 2 against Blueno...
That's why I'm calling them even with maybe a slight gap!
I think, as I already said, that you could be right…
Basically, my above post says to let this debate go… before it gets out of hand, which it has.
:wassat: No, I disagree… If she doesn't like this kind of debate she is free to avoid it... But it doesn't seem to me a debate gone out of hend... We discuss respecting each other and so where's the problem with this?
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@$abZ:
Basically, my above post says to let this debate go… before it gets out of hand, which it has. Wait a little longer for better facts.
I think everyone here understands the difference between facts and speculation, unlike a certain group of poster(s).
At the moment, I personally believe Sanji is closer to Zoro than Zoro is to Luffy. I think Oda hints at this through the selection of opponents. It's been like that since Sanji and Zoro started a rivalry. Luffy is defeating opponents Zoro can't. At the moment Luffy is fighting more powerful fighters in almost every aspect.
Contrary to current belief, I think the crew will be closer in strengths at the end of One Piece. Mihawk, Shanks, and Whitebeard are in the same league of fighting power. When The SHs become as powerful as those pirates, they'll essentially be almost equal.
People often label Usopp, Nami, and Chopper as bottom rung, but they're improving exponentially. Think of the fighting Nami and Chopper did in the beginning. By the time One Piece is over, I'm convinced Usopp will be the best marksman, Nami the best tactician, and Chopper the most powerful Zoan in the Grandline. The fighting strength of the crew is actually becoming closer, not further away.
vegetarian luffy -
I think everyone here understands the difference between facts and speculation, unlike a certain group of poster(s).
Of course!!At the moment, I personally believe Sanji is closer to Zoro than Zoro is to Luffy. I think Oda hints at this through the selection of opponents.
Well… We can't measure someone strength by the enemies he defeats... If Zoro defeats weaker enemies than Luff's but with easier effort, they could be equal as well...
It's been like that since Sanji and Zoro started a rivalry.
It used to be like that even before Wiskey Peak, but Zoro proved to be equal to Luffy and not to Sanji at the time…
Luffy is defeating opponents Zoro can't. At the moment Luffy is fighting more powerful fighters in almost every aspect.
Wait…
The only enemies defeated by Luffy and that Zoro couldn't defeat are:
Bagy: His DF makes him immune to blades...
God Enel: Luffy is rubber made, Zoro is meat and bones...Who else?
And yes, Luffy is fighting stronger opponents... But he has always an harder time with them...
Contrary to current belief, I think the crew will be closer in strengths at the end of One Piece. Mihawk, Shanks, and Whitebeard are in the same league of fighting power. When The SHs become as powerful as those pirates, they'll essentially be almost equal.
Exactly!! I think you are right, it will end up like this!! As previously said, the fact that Shanks and Mihawk are pretty much equal and they are the inspirations of Luffy and Zoro makes me think that they are going to be equal in the end… But it could be said even for other crew members...
People often label Usopp, Nami, and Chopper as bottom rung, but they're improving exponentially. Think of the fighting Nami and Chopper did in the beginning. By the time One Piece is over, I'm convinced Usopp will be the best marksman, Nami the best tactician, and Chopper the most powerful Zoan in the Grandline. The fighting strength of the crew is actually becoming closer, not further away.
Yes!! Saying what happened in the battles against the CP9 I'm beginning to think that all the crew mates are getting closer and closer to Luffy's level… Zoro used to be always equal to him since the beginning, Sanji that was weaker is now almost equal, the others that were a lot weaker are getting closer themselves... I think it's like you said!!
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I don't know about Kaku and Jyabura, but going off the strength of the upgrades, I'd have to say Zoro's Asura is for sure the stronger
It took Sanji two attacks with his upgrade to finish off Jyabura, and he took an injury (5 fingers) to the chest while doing it.
Zoro basically vaporized both Kaku and his giant wave in one shot with his upgrade, ending the fight practically instantaneously
I honestly think the upgrades actually further seperated Luffy and Zoro from Sanji. Not that Sanji didn't take a big leap forward, but Luffy and Zoro's upgrades seem to be far more powerful.
Sanji also took a far shorter time with his fight than Zoro did. Despite Jyabura and Kaku being near equal in strength.
That and he was hurt before the fight started while Zoro started off with a clean slate.
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Despite Jyabura and Kaku being near equal in strength.
Kaku and Jabura are almost equal in terms of Doriki, so they are similar as Rokushiki users… But Kaku is a swordsman and as he clearly said, he can show his true power with his 4 swords style (the nitoryu added to the use of the strongest Rankyaku of all CP9), but Doriki don't count this... So Kaku is slightly stronger than Jabura with only Rokushiki, but as a swordsman he gets quite stronger than unarmed...
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Woahwoahwoah
Hey lets not let this become like that old debate where people just started yelling at each other.
This probably has no relevance to what most of you are talking now, but i have to say one thing regarding Mihawk and Shanks and their relevance to this debate:
Firstly, Mihawk and Shanks are rivals, and therefore from there i speculate them to be equal in fighting ability. You don't have to agree on this, but let me continue. It's true that surpassing Shanks and Mihawk are Luffy's and Zoro's goals respectively. Therefore, if Shanks = Mihawk, then Luffy = Zoro right? Nope. We have to understand their dreams to see this better. Zoro is aiming for the top of the swordsmen's realm. Mihawk is at that top, and so if Zoro wants to be the World's Greatest Swordsman, he has to defeat Mihawk. No questions there. Now, Luffy's dream is to be the one Pirate King after Gol D. Roger. But, Shanks is NOT the Pirate King. It isn't even mentioned anywhere if he is aiming for that position, only that he is one of the 4 pirates closest to that title right now. Given his laid-back nature, it is my opinion that he probably isn't aiming for that top position, but is following his ex-captain's, old Roger himself, dream, that is, my speculation once again, to reform the world away from what the current WG has made it. I don't think Roger allowed himself to be caught if he hadn't had any intention in mind of sparking off the Great Age of Pirates. This is in line with the fact that some of his crew like Shanks and Buggy didn't try to spring him from the execution platform. Anyway I'm getting out of point…
The thing is, Luffy doesn't aim to just surpass Shanks; he aims to be what Shanks didn't, maybe couldn't, be: to be the next Pirate King after 2 odd decades.
What I'm saying here is that, Luffy's and Zoro's goals of supassing their respective idols, of whom may be equals, doesn't necessarily equate to them also being equals. To me, Luffy's dream is much higher than Zoro's, and to achieve that he is going to be stronger than Zoro, if marginally.
Because, to me, strength isn't just determined by fighting ability (yes, not the other way around). How die-hard, how immense your beliefs are will also be factors when a fight is left to the last man standing.
Lol, i thank those who understand me, and i'm sorry to those who didn't but took the time to read my post anyway
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Hey lets not let this become like that old debate where people just started yelling at each other.
I won't yell at no one…
Firstly, Mihawk and Shanks are rivals, and therefore from there i speculate them to be equal in fighting ability. You don't have to agree on this, but let me continue. It's true that surpassing Shanks and Mihawk are Luffy's and Zoro's goals respectively. Therefore, if Shanks = Mihawk, then Luffy = Zoro right? Nope. We have to understand their dreams to see this better. Zoro is aiming for the top of the swordsmen's realm. Mihawk is at that top, and so if Zoro wants to be the World's Greatest Swordsman, he has to defeat Mihawk. No questions there. Now, Luffy's dream is to be the one Pirate King after Gol D. Roger. But, Shanks is NOT the Pirate King. It isn't even mentioned anywhere if he is aiming for that position, only that he is one of the 4 pirates closest to that title right now. Given his laid-back nature, it is my opinion that he probably isn't aiming for that top position, but is following his ex-captain's, old Roger himself, dream, that is, my speculation once again, to reform the world away from what the current WG has made it. I don't think Roger allowed himself to be caught if he hadn't had any intention in mind of sparking off the Great Age of Pirates. This is in line with the fact that some of his crew like Shanks and Buggy didn't try to spring him from the execution platform. Anyway I'm getting out of point…
The thing is, Luffy doesn't aim to just surpass Shanks; he aims to be what Shanks didn't, maybe couldn't, be: to be the next Pirate King after 2 odd decades.
What I'm saying here is that, Luffy's and Zoro's goals of supassing their respective idols, of whom may be equals, doesn't necessarily equate to them also being equals. To me, Luffy's dream is much higher than Zoro's, and to achieve that he is going to be stronger than Zoro, if marginally.
Yes, interesting debate…
I have to say that Mihawk himself said that Luffy's dream is even more difficult to reach than Zoro's itself (I watched the episode of Zoro VS Mihawk on the DVDs just some days ago... )... But I don't think that it's a matter of strength... Mihawk is probably equal to Shanks even if he is not one of the 4 Emperors... And the 4 Emperors have the strength to be the King of Pirates... But, as I said, that title is not only a matter of power, to be the King of Pirates you ave to be able to change the world itself...
Shanks maybe doesn't have the will to be the King, but he has the power... If Luffy would surpass him, with also his unbeatble will, he could be the King...
What I mean is that Shanks strength is enough to be the King, but strength is not the only thing needed...
So it's possible that Luffy and Zoro would be equal in the end as battle power, but when Zoro will rule among the swordsmen, Luffy's view will be a lot wider, he will rule the whole world...Because, to me, strength isn't just determined by fighting ability (yes, not the other way around). How die-hard, how immense your beliefs are will also be factors when a fight is left to the last man standing.
Yes, sure!! And we saw many times that Zoro's will to not be defeated is pretty much the same of Luffy's!!Lol, i thank those who understand me, and i'm sorry to those who didn't but took the time to read my post anyway
Of course… I find your post very interesting and I think they are a good contribute to the debate!! -
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@goldsaint13:
Kaku and Jabura are almost equal in terms of Doriki, so they are similar as Rokushiki users… But Kaku is a swordsman and as he clearly said, he can show his true power with his 4 swords style (the nitoryu added to the use of the strongest Rankyaku of all CP9), but Doriki don't count this... So Kaku is slightly stronger than Jabura with only Rokushiki, but as a swordsman he gets quite stronger than unarmed...
Douriki was a measure of how powerfull they were without taking into account DF powers. Not a measure of Rokushiki skill itself as the very basic of douriki was a marine with a gun. Marines with guns arn't really Rokushiki users, and neither was Spandam (who himself had a douriki rating).
