Besides, Luffy always fights the big guys, and beating a "big guy" will get you a higher bounty than beating the "big guys" little sword swinging minion.
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Luffy & Zoro (Potential Spoilers)
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Yeah I agree that bounty isn't a truly accurate measure of power. However, to the ones getting it, it does represent a value, a price tag, to their very existence.
I'm not arguing that bounties are directly proportional to strength. What I'm citing here is that Zoro himself Accepts the bounty that is "bestowed" on him. Unlike Chopper, who was obviously unhappy about his 50 belli bounty (i sorta sympathise with him too), Zoro gave a smile when he saw his new bounty poster, and this was despite having Luffy's 300 mil bounty almost right beside his.
What I'm saying is that, Zoro himself accepts that he is beneath Luffy in terms of danger posed to the government. Yes, you might argue that "danger /= strength", and you may be right, but lets think it in the viewpoint of Zoro, when he sees the number on the sheet of paper. If he had himself felt that he was equal to Luffy in terms of fighting ability, then surely he would have at least had a little small show of protest on his face when he sees that Luffy has almost 3 times his own bounty's size. The fact that he was smiling shows that he was satisfied with the number and that he accepts his being beneath Luffy. Bear in mind that 300mil and 120mil is a lot different; they are numbers of a totally different league altogether.
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@Impel:
Besides, Luffy always fights the big guys, and beating a "big guy" will get you a higher bounty than beating the "big guys" little sword swinging minion.
Yes!! Right… It's another important fact... If you prove to be able to defeat a person with such a bounty, you will recive a slightly higher bounty... But they don't know if you would be able to defeat a stronger opponent as well...What I'm saying is that, Zoro himself accepts that he is beneath Luffy in terms of danger posed to the government. Yes, you might argue that "danger /= strength", and you may be right, but lets think it in the viewpoint of Zoro, when he sees the number on the sheet of paper. If he had himself felt that he was equal to Luffy in terms of fighting ability, then surely he would have at least had a little small show of protest on his face when he sees that Luffy has almost 3 times his own bounty's size. The fact that he was smiling shows that he was satisfied with the number and that he accepts his being beneath Luffy. Bear in mind that 300mil and 120mil is a lot different; they are numbers of a totally different league altogether.
:happy: Yes, good point… But I think that it's explained by the fact that Zoro, just like us, knows that bounties are not equal to battle power...
I mean... Zoro is Luffy's first mate and it's obvious for him to get a lower bounty than his capitan... He also know that the will to be the world best swordsman is considered far less dangerous than the will to be the Pirate King... Yes, the World Gov. doesn't know it, but in the end Zoro knows that he will always be considered less dangerous than Luffy, not strong, but dangerous. And I guess that all the people in OP world knows the meaning of bounties, that more than power, measures how much the Gov. fears people and no one would value Zoro's fighting ability basing on the bounty...
And knowing it, Zoro is anyway happy to be considered very dangerous by the W.G. but he knows that he will never be felt as dangerous as Luffy that is the capitan of the crew...
His goal is to defeat Mihawk and this will give him the title of the number one swordsman... But Luffy must, somehow, defeat the whole world to be the King of the Pirates!!
In the end, I can say that Zoro his happy because he and all the people of OP knows that bounties arend strength measurers, as we know... So he can still be as strong as Luffy like in the early arcs. even with a lot lower bounty...
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@Juraquille:
Anyway my point for the thread is, what do you think of the relative difference in power between Luffy and Zoro? Is the Enies Lobby arc the place where Luffy stands above Zoro and defines a boundary in their respective skill? Or does Oda have a secret we don't know as of yet?
Well now, this is a good post with some thought. I will go with the fact hat they Luffy and Zoro are still equal considering the fight they had back at whiskey Peak.
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You call that a fight? They clashed for like a minute. Neither one truely showed their strength!
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I'll agree… And they were stopped dead in their tracks by (then) the weakest crewmember (Nami) next to Usopp. Its hardly worth even mentioning the clash. The only ones who were tested strength wise were the BW agents.
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I think I will call that a fight. For the simple fact that Luffy and Zoro were trying to kill each other. I also believe that the two characters used all of their best moves in that short spat and no victor was decided.
I go off of actual events, the fight Luffy and Zoro had which came out even is the only indicator that you can go off of. Until the next time these two characters clash, that is the only time we can truly see who is stronger.
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Zoro always defeats opponents that are slightly weaker, but still almost as strong, as the opponents that Luffy defeats. I think Luffy is stronger, but just slightly.
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Well now, this is a good post with some thought. I will go with the fact hat they Luffy and Zoro are still equal considering the fight they had back at whiskey Peak.
Yeah, I think the same way…
And there's no proof to say that Luffy may has gotten stronger...You call that a fight? They clashed for like a minute. Neither one truely showed their strength!
I'll agree… And they were stopped dead in their tracks by (then) the weakest crewmember (Nami) next to Usopp. Its hardly worth even mentioning the clash. The only ones who were tested strength wise were the BW agents.
No, that was a serious fight… We can be sure of it by the words of the same two fighters...
The only purpose of that battle is to show that Luffy and Zoro are equal...
The fight was short, but effective to show that at full power they are even...I think I will call that a fight. For the simple fact that Luffy and Zoro were trying to kill each other. I also believe that the two characters used all of their best moves in that short spat and no victor was decided.
Of course!!
Starting with a huge clash between Gom Gom Bazooka and Santoryu Onigiri, the two showed all they have got…Zoro always defeats opponents that are slightly weaker, but still almost as strong, as the opponents that Luffy defeats. I think Luffy is stronger, but just slightly.
Keep in mind that Zoro's enemies are always yes quite weaker than Luffy's but on the other hand Zoro has quite less trouble beating them…
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So which one of you is the Phenomenal :getlost: ??
There never was DIRECT proof of Luffy = Zoro . Even if they battled and used there strongest atacks at that moment. The battle didn't finish, so if you put it down as fact - your wrong.. Because it's just speculating. For all we know Zoro and Sanji are equal.
Waiting for the red-data-book argument :ninja:
Xbox: Gaiyae Psn id: Gaiyae
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So which one of you is the Phenomenal ??
:wassat: What do you mean?
(By the way… You are a Breath of Fire III fan... Great!!! :happy: )
There never was DIRECT proof of Luffy = Zoro . Even if they battled and used there strongest atacks at that moment. The battle didn't finish, so if you put it down as fact - your wrong.. Because it's just speculating. For all we know Zoro and Sanji are equal.
I don't remember a fight between Zoro and Sanji ending… I don't remember it beginning at all... 
So how can you say they are equal?
There are more proofs for Luffy = Zoro than for Zoro = Sanji and I find it obvious considering that Luffy's and Zoro's deams are to be the strongest of the world... Sanji doesn't keep such a dream...Waiting for the red-data-book argument
Right, right… Not to mention it, but yes, it's another proof... And don't forget the filler battle Luffy VS Zoro during the memory loss arc.
Yes, it's only a filler, but Luffy and Zoro keep to be equal!! -
kaku's strength measurement was only slightly lesser than lucci's; but lucci had a predator zoan whereas kaku had an herbivore zoan so its tricky to tell how much stronger than kaku lucci was. Zoro had to pull out all the stops to beat kaku though, probably about as much as luffy did against lucci (or so it seemed to me)
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kaku's strength measurement was only slightly lesser than lucci's; but lucci had a predator zoan whereas kaku had an herbivore zoan so its tricky to tell how much stronger than kaku lucci was. Zoro had to pull out all the stops to beat kaku though, probably about as much as luffy did against lucci (or so it seemed to me)
Considering only the Doriki measure, Kaku should have only half the strength that Lucci has, but Doriki measures only the body, not the Devil Fruits power or the use of swords… And keeping in mind that Kaku is a swordsman, we can say that he is quite stronger than Jabura and closer to Lucci... But Lucci remains a lot stronger, expecialy in his zoan predator form, as you said...
But it's clear wathcing the battles that Zoro beated Kaku quite easier that Luffy with Lucci... Zoro have been superior to Kaku for all the fight, Luffy instead have been weaker than Lucci most of all... -
Kaku vs. Zoro was half and half, it wasn't "all Zoro". And Luffy only won by a little bit in that fight, even though it was also half and half.
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@Impel:
Kaku vs. Zoro was half and half, it wasn't "all Zoro". And Luffy only won by a little bit in that fight, even though it was also half and half.
Yes, but in the end Zoro has only some scratches, Luffy is almost dead…
And we say that Zoro is anyway quite a bite superior to Kaku, while Luffy is beaten hardly by Lucci!! -
Same for Sanji… but no one is speaking about him =((
Well, I already accepted it
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Same for Sanji… but no one is speaking about him =((
Well, I already accepted it
Yes, somehow it's the same for Sanji, so it means that, as I already said, he is close to Luffy and Zoro in strength… I think he only lacks the will to be the strongest of the world...But if Jabura is only a little waker than Kaku in body strength, the gap grows if Kaku has his swords, by the fact that he is a swordsman...
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This is why i made a thread on power levels.
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?t=11958Chikara(力), physical strength:
Chikara is used in the red book to indicate strengths of the Straw Hat crew. It can be literally translated as "physical force". The kanji's original representation is an arm, and means only physical strength when the kanji is used alone in referrence to a person. It is used alongside other dubious attributes. This measurement has only been used in the databook.Luffy: 6
Zoro: 6
Sanji: 5
Chopper: 2
Usopp: 2
Nami: 1Douriki (道力):
Douriki is tested using teawase (a game/contest). Members of Cipher Pol 9 are the only people tested so far. The contest only tests physical strength, so it is similar to chikara. It does not take into account the extent of DF abilities. It is unknown whether this measurement will be used by Oda later in the manga.Lucci: 4000
Kaku: 2200
Jyabura: 2180
Blueno: 820
Kumadori: 810
Fukurou: 800
Kalifa: 630
Normal marine: 10
Spandam: 9Clarification on Chikara:
It's used mostly for physical strength (the ability to output force).
Japanese wikipedia literally translates it to force (f=ma in physics, much different from power). That's when it is used alone, but can have more meanings when used in combination with other kanji (it's also used in douriki道力).
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8A%9B…
You can call a country "strong" or "powerful". When talking about a country, you could use chikara. In that sense it means power (political and militarily). When talking about a person, it relates more directly to physical force.
vegetarian luffy -
I understand wat ur talking about. But hey, luffy sure has gears, but zoro has his new Asura mode in which he transform from his Demon ki spirit. Zoro can pump up his muscles too u know
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Clarification on Chikara
Yes!! Chikara… I often hear it in animes with sub and it means strength, power, and something like this...I'll take a look to that thread... Here in Italy the One Piece Red Book has been published years ago and that Chikara kanji is translated with "forza" that means strength...
I understand wat ur talking about. But hey, luffy sure has gears, but zoro has his new Asura mode in which he transform from his Demon ki spirit. Zoro can pump up his muscles too u know
:happy: Yes!!! I'm sure that Ashura power is the same as Gears and it's equal to them… Yes, I know that there is not only the Gear 2nd but the incredibly powerful Gear 3rd...
But don't think that Ashura Ichibugin is the only 9 swords move... -
Hmm.. Nope you can't say "no one considers bounty to be a measure of strength", because almost everyone does. To name a few, think Bellamy and his lackeys. Think Blackbeard in pursuit of a 100mil man. Think Oda using 500mil on Enel based on his trickiness to beat. Hell, think Luffy getting all pumped up about his increments in bounties; i don't think any thought of "yay, i'm more of a danger to the World Government now!" went through his mind.
It's true that Zoro had a relatively easier time handling Kaku than Luffy handling Lucci. But consider this: Lucci was almost twice as powerful as Kaku. Imagine benching a 100kg weight. Now imagine benching a 180kg weight. It's quite a lot of difference. And you can't say that Zoro had an easy time with Kaku either. It wasn't a "one slash kill without getting hurt" kinda thing. Zoro did get hit a few times before issuing his final blow too. And Franky did mention, with Zoro listening on, that "had luffy not been distracting Lucci, he wouldn't be able to imagine how many of them would have died by then".
The whiskey peak might suggest them being equal, but there is a major problem in using it as an example: the fight was NEVER concluded. Unless you wanna say that Nami is stronger than them both, it's hard to say who would come out on top with that fight. I mean, if a fight could be determined within a few moves, then Zoro, Luffy, Sanji all wouldn't have fought for these many episodes already.
I agree with you in saying that Luffy has that much higher bounty because of his being the captain of his crew and Zoro only being one of the crewmates. But, more than twice the amount? Consider Bellamy having a 55mil bounty. His 2nd mate, Sarquiss, had a 38mil bounty. That's a 17mil difference. Luffy and Zoro had a staggering 180mil between them, that difference already being more than Zoro's own bounty. While it cannot be proof of their difference in fighting ability, surely Zoro's satisfaction with that difference shows his accepting being beneath Luffy?
Zoro is almost as strong as Luffy, yes, but I still think that Luffy should be slightly stronger.
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Yeah probably luffy is stronger than zoro! But the difference isn't that much though if i am not wrong. Hope there will be a future episode where luffy is dumb enuf to hold a straw-hat fighting compeition to see who is the strongest
But i feel the difference between zoro and sanji might be quite alot -
Hmm.. Nope you can't say "no one considers bounty to be a measure of strength", because almost everyone does. To name a few, think Bellamy and his lackeys. Think Blackbeard in pursuit of a 100mil man. Think Oda using 500mil on Enel based on his trickiness to beat. Hell, think Luffy getting all pumped up about his increments in bounties; i don't think any thought of "yay, i'm more of a danger to the World Government now!" went through his mind.
Yes!!! It's right… You said it... Enel would get a 500 mil. bounty because he is almost invincible (just like Logia users commonly are), and Luffy himself is harder to defeat than someone with his same strength but made of meat and bones rather than rubber...
Yes, bounties means some bit of strength, but a lot more they mean how hard it is to kill someone or even capture... Added to it, his social degree of dangerness... Based, of course, on what the W.G. knows... Chopper is a lot stronger than common people valued 50 Berries... Robin, as I said, is not as strong as some other people with such a bounty... Anyway I undestrood your point...It's true that Zoro had a relatively easier time handling Kaku than Luffy handling Lucci. But consider this: Lucci was almost twice as powerful as Kaku. Imagine benching a 100kg weight. Now imagine benching a 180kg weight. It's quite a lot of difference. And you can't say that Zoro had an easy time with Kaku either. It wasn't a "one slash kill without getting hurt" kinda thing. Zoro did get hit a few times before issuing his final blow too.
Yes, I know, I know… Lucci is double than Kaku (not exacly because Dorikis doesn't measure the skill with swords and Kaku, as a swordsman, shows his best with swords) but Zoro has also half the problems to defeat him... I don't say that he wins with ease, only that he has half the problems had by Luffy...
And Franky did mention, with Zoro listening on, that "had luffy not been distracting Lucci, he wouldn't be able to imagine how many of them would have died by then".
Zoro himself said that Lucci is quite a monster and that he wouldn't be an easy fight…
But consider that the other Straw Hats had already to fight the other CP9 and they couldn't handle Lucci at the same time and even at the end of the other battles, they were anyway injuried and couldn't handle the power of Lucci, neither Zoro that is equal (or almost equal) to Luffy...
Immagine Luffy that barely managed to defeat Lucci risking his life a lot, to fight and defeat Kaku before, and then have to fight Lucci... He would die for sure... The same Zoro, to have some kind of chance against Lucci, must be in perfect shape...The whiskey peak might suggest them being equal, but there is a major problem in using it as an example: the fight was NEVER concluded. Unless you wanna say that Nami is stronger than them both, it's hard to say who would come out on top with that fight. I mean, if a fight could be determined within a few moves, then Zoro, Luffy, Sanji all wouldn't have fought for these many episodes already.
There's no need to end the fight to understand… It's also obvious the fight didn't end... They would have killed each other going on that way...
Nami stops it all in a fairly funny way because the battle was getting too hard, but its level was high enough to make us clearly see that the two fighters were even... Same attack power, same damage, etc.
I think that most people that consider Luffy to be stronger than Zoro, have this idea more for the main character role/defeat of the main villains than for a shown higher strength...
I mean... Where we can see that Luffy is, even only slightly, stronger than Zoro? :wassat:
Every, and I mean EVERY confrontations between the two results equal... Two fights, one by Oda, the other in the fillers, both equal... The Red Book states them as equal too...
So where is this stronger power of Luffy? Maybe only in his role of main character... It's just like that bounty fact... He is belived to be stronger but I don't see how...I agree with you in saying that Luffy has that much higher bounty because of his being the captain of his crew and Zoro only being one of the crewmates. But, more than twice the amount? Consider Bellamy having a 55mil bounty. His 2nd mate, Sarquiss, had a 38mil bounty. That's a 17mil difference. Luffy and Zoro had a staggering 180mil between them, that difference already being more than Zoro's own bounty. While it cannot be proof of their difference in fighting ability, surely Zoro's satisfaction with that difference shows his accepting being beneath Luffy?
Well… The more those bounties will rise, the more the gap will became big... The previous bounties where 100 mil. and 60 mil. with only 40 mil. of difference... But the crew does thing that increase more the fame of the capitan than their own... If Zoro defeats a base of Marines all by himself, the report to the W.G. would be that "Straw Hats" have done it, and this will make Luffy more fearsome to their eyes, more than Zoro himself that is the executor of the carnage...
I think than Zoro knows this would have happened since the time he joined Luffy... He knows that being under someone orders will make the world think that you are less dangerous and maybe even weaker than your boss... And if Zoro accepted the fact, it means that he doesn't care to be under Luffy... When they fought at Wiskey Peak Zoro said that he wanted to test who was the strongest of the two and proved himself and Luffy that he is not weaker than the capitan... So, I guess it should be enough for him...Zoro is almost as strong as Luffy, yes, but I still think that Luffy should be slightly stronger.
It's possible, but there aren't clear proofs of it… It could even be that they are perfectly equal... There's nothing than shows the opposite!!
Yeah probably luffy is stronger than zoro! But the difference isn't that much though if i am not wrong. Hope there will be a future episode where luffy is dumb enuf to hold a straw-hat fighting compeition to see who is the strongest
But i feel the difference between zoro and sanji might be quite alotThe difference, if it exists, is so little that it's not possible to see it…
So, very, very small, or unexistent at all...
The Straw Hats battle would solve it all... -
Hehe yeah maybe you're right.
Luffy may or may not be stronger, but i guess that's that. There's no way to prove or disprove it. The Red Book can say that Zoro is in Luffy's range of power, that is, level 6, but we don't know just how much fluctuation there is to it. There may or may not be a difference in terms of power. Their bounties cannot be used either since the captain of a crew is always more likely to get a higher bounty, due to his/her tenacity to start building the crew up. Their only fight which Oda drew was inconclusive. Only Oda can say whether Luffy's dream can take him higher than Zoro's.
In other words, we can just agree to disagree for now. I still think that Luffy is marginally stronger than Zoro, but then again, that's my own opinion, and yours can always differ. So, you're right. The best way is to have a Straw Hats intra-battle to resolve this lol
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The question as to who's stronger between Luffy and Zoro may be answered in the future.
Remember when Zoro first joined up with Luffy? He said that if being a pirate interfered with his dream, he'd take Luffy's life. He's also gotten more tense and serious since the start of the series. This is probably because he knows the dangers of the Grand Line and achieving his dream, and that fooling around and rushing in could be fatal. Unlike Luffy, he doesn't view it as some fun adventure, which is why he showed such animosity towards him in chapter 435 when Luffy wanted to simply let Usopp back into the crew.
I can see Zoro getting more and more tense, especially after they move on towards the New World and his serious attitude clashing with Luffy's natural sense of adventure. At that point, it's also a possibility that Zoro's bounty is so high that the government and Marines are practically up his ass, so that definately will interfere with his dream some and force him back to the vow he made when he joined the crew.
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I have to disagree with you here…
I always thought the top 3 are barely on the same strenght-level... I hate that Everybody put Sanji out cause of that he isn't fighting to be the strongest...
When you compare the strenght of Zoro and Luffy cause of his fight in Whiskey Peak... Ok I agree with you that Zoro and Luffy are on the same level... but you have to see the dact that Oda always gives us hints... that Sanji and Zoro are on the same level too... but I think some of you don't like too see that...
For the Lucci fight... Luffy had gig problems even with Gear 2 against him... Zoro and Sanji won their fights with the new upgrades a lot easier and faster...
So I have to say... Luffy>=Zoro>=Sanji
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I've always felt that Sanji is a full order of magnitude weaker than Zoro and Luffy, even weaker than Robin. Zoro may be weaker than Robin too for that matter. So my scale goes 1. Luffy 2. Zoro 3. Robin 4. Sanji 5. Chopper 6. Nami 7. Ussop Now with Franky appearing; he's probably somewhere weaker than Zoro but stronger than Sanji.
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Franky stronger than Sanji???
I can't see this… Franky is strong no doubt... but he is needing cola to be on max...
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That's like saying a man with a gun is weaker than a man without a gun because the man with a gun needs bullets. Franky's cola requirements don't disqualify ranking him at his full power.
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Sanji is defintely behing Zoro and Luffy fighting wise. He's like..the leader of the second tier..:P
Sry but it's fact.As for Luffy and Zoro, I think it's pretty clear that Luffy is slightly stronger than Zoro,but they're in the same power range.
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That's like saying a man with a gun is weaker than a man without a gun because the man with a gun needs bullets. Franky's cola requirements don't disqualify ranking him at his full power.
Well… that's not the case. Sanji's strength on a whole is stronger than Franky at full power. The difference is clear when Sanji faught a stronger CP9 member, and Franky faught a weaker one. The bounties of both also hint that Sanji is stronger too.
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Ah, damn. As a Franky fan I should stood up for him. But the sad fact is that Sanji is stronger than him. Altough Franky is lot cooler.
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@$abZ:
Well… that's not the case. Sanji's strength on a whole is stronger than Franky at full power. The difference is clear when Sanji faught a stronger CP9 member, and Franky faught a weaker one. The bounties of both also hint that Sanji is stronger too.
I don't think you can infer that much from those battles because there had been so many other things going on that prejudiced their outcomes (Sanji was already injured, Franky had already fought a CP9 member prior to that and been handled roughly during his capture, etc).
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Yeah that's why he fought a CP9er who is as strong as the one who Zoro fought…
Oda did make him clearly weaker than Zoro and Luffy...
You are right... He is as strong as Ussop and Chopper!
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I don't think you can infer that much from those battles because there had been so many other things going on that prejudiced their outcomes (Sanji was already injured, Franky had already fought a CP9 member prior to that and been handled roughly during his capture, etc).
They make minor differences.
I don't think you'd be able to show me a hint which shows Franky being stronger than Sanji. And also remember how quickly Sanji defeated his CP9 opponant.
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@$abZ:
They make minor differences.
I don't think you'd be able to show me a hint which shows Franky being stronger than Sanji. And also remember how quickly Sanji defeated his CP9 opponant.
I think what truely prejudices Franky's fight is his lack of cola. Think about it, if Franky did was he did against Fukurou against the stronger CP9, i.e. struggle evenly then pwn him–what would we think? I think he'd be a little cheap. That fight could have only happened against someone much weaker then Franky.
With full power, Fukurou was nothing to Franky, save for his speed--Franky's second weakness. After that though, Fukurou was downed by two strong hits. In Franky's defense, even Jybura took maybe a dozen attacks (with SAnji's speed) to down, though only two diable jambe kicks.
I think that Franky and Sanji could go either way. Let's not compare the CP9, but their abilities:
-Sanji had more speed, and kicks that can hurt Franky. Franky would struggle with that speed, definitely. Diable Jiable would probably badly injure Franky despite defense--of course that's his strongest move now.
-Franky has bullets and weapons that could go through Sanji like paper. Sanji's neven been much of a tank, he has high stamina with low defense. On top of that, Franky could still defend with his big steel arms.
I imagine that these two would go through a close yet even fight. I think it's a draw right now.
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Sanji and Franky have attacks equally as powerful as each other… Sanji's new technique strongest move between the two. The only difference is speed, which would help Sanji dodge bullets and weopans.
Fukurou was fast, but not as strong as Franky. But Sanji is equally as strong, or stronger.
strong = strength (in this post).
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Franky doesn't actually use bullets in his most powerful attacks. Most strawhats can easily survive bullets, anyways. I believe Franky is somewhere on par with Robin, below Sanji. Franky has a good fighting spirit, but he hasn't proven himself against a strong enough opponent yet.
Robin isn't as strong as people are lead to believe. Robin wouldn't be able to do submission moves on half the SHs. Her arms are only as strong as her real body. She's just not physically strong enough to hold down the top fighters, who could easily overpower her arms and possibly break them.
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Alright, perhaps it isn't as one sided as I orginally thought, though Franky still gives me the impression of superior strength and we haven't seen all of his abilities yet probably. Zoro\Luffy are still on the top tier with Robin possibly being stronger than Zoro due to her unique ability and Sanji\Franky occupying the second tier.
Edit: Robin really is that strong; she can make her arms appear in such a way that even those with superior strength can't use it against her, plus she can make many arms appear thus multiplying her strength. She also easily knocks weapons out of people's hands and can gouge out eyes, etc… That she is usually kind with her powers doesn't imply a limitation.
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Robin is not stronger than Zoro. Her arms are her weak spot, since damaging the arms damages Robin.
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@Impel:
Robin is not stronger than Zoro. Her arms are her weak spot, since damaging the arms damages Robin.
Saying that and him actually being able to do damage to her sprouted arms are two different things. Everytime Zoro has pointed a sword at her its been knocked out of his hands before he knew what was going on.
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Saying that and him actually being able to do damage to her sprouted arms are two different things. Everytime Zoro has pointed a sword at her its been knocked out of his hands before he knew what was going on.
I guess she would own Luffy too then they should make her captain.
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JJ's personal opinion is as follows:
Luffy >>> Zoro >/= Sanji > Franky > the rest.
Beyond that, I'm not going to get deeply involved in this thread because so much of it seems to reek with the stench of fantardism. Sure that's a mean thing to say, but when I still see Whiskey Peak being brought up as a justification for why Zoro and Luffy are equals it leaves me completely at a loss as to how to coherently respond without being an ass.
~ jj ~
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JJ's personal opinion is as follows:
Luffy >>> Zoro >/= Sanji > Franky > the rest.
Beyond that, I'm not going to get deeply involved in this thread because so much of it seems to reek with the stench of fantardism. Sure that's a mean thing to say, but when I still see Whiskey Peak being brought up as a justification for why Zoro and Luffy are equals it leaves me completely at a loss as to how to coherently respond without being an ass.
~ jj ~
hehe yeah ur one to to talk about fantardism after writing Luffy >>> zoro while having that Avatar.
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hehe yeah ur one to to talk about fantardism after writing Luffy >>> zoro while having that Avatar.
Oh yeah, god forbid I have a Luffy avatar on a One Piece centric forum. God, that must make me TEH BIGGST LUFFY-TARD EVAR. [/sarcasm]
Let it be known that the reason why I think that Luffy is stronger than Zoro is because I read the manga and I'm not blind. Let it also be known that my favourite Straw Hat is neither Luffy nor Zoro, it's Sanji.
Geez, this is why I hate these kinds of threads. :getlost:
~ jj ~
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Why does it seem that certain crew members arent allowed to be stronger than others? Also why is it hard to accept that theres basically a division between all of them regardless of where that falls.
Luffy is the captain and is the strongest for various reasons.
Zoro is indeed a beast and as far as non DF strength goes Zoro has got that covered.
Sanji is also a beast, but is also a great tactician and Oda likes to play that up.
Franky is SUUUUUUUPAAAAAAA without a doubt, and i would place him under Sanji.
Robin being stronger than Zoro…umm id have a hard time believing this but she can so much more differently than the rest of the crew i wont rule out her hurting him if they fought.
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If you think about it Dourikis dont mean nearly as much as people think they do.
In DBZ if ones powerlevel was higher then pretty much that was the winner, however the more "new" mangas dont relate powerlevel to everything in a fight.
ie. the Spirit thing in Shaman King, Chakra in Naruto (ie Shikamaru), so forth
Also please consider this. I think throughout OP there characters always fluctuate in strength (combat abilities) position.
If we look at when Luffy and Zoro first encounter CP9 they could not nearly break tekkai of even Blueno.
Then we go to Franky who is the first to seem to harm a CP9, Blueno (at Franky's secret hideout)
Then we see Sanji (supposedly weaker the Luffy and Zoro) is the first to almost break Blueno's Tekkai. More succesful then Luffy at Iceburg's Mansion.
Then we see base Luffy match Blueno. His powers have skyrocketed (perhaps due to finding out about Robin's reason but still). When he activates gear 2 he owns him.
Now lets skip to Franky again, every one of his punches break through the zipper guys (forgot name) Tekkai and he has a douriki almost equivalent to Blueno.
Now all of a sudden Sanji's kicks break Jabura's Tekka without having to charge up like he did against Blueno. Jabura's Douriki was 4x of Blueno's.
Douriki is shown to increase Tekkai as seen when Franky punches Lucci. So then did Sanji get 4x stronger? probaly even more cause he lost to Blueno on the seatrain so if Sanji had a Douriki level then it would be probaly below 800. now its above 2180? CP9 trained their whole life, this strength increase happens in less then a day.
Now when Luffy fights and beats Lucci that means if he was weaker then Blueno before, <800 and then all of a sudden >4000. So in a short time span he got 5X stronger? tht would make Crocodile look like a little girl…
What Im saying is that if Luffy is able to jump a gap that much between fights. WHY COULDNT ZORO AND SANJI DO IT?!?! we've already seen SANJI AND ZORO JUMP FROM LOSING TO A 800 DOURIKI TO SMOKING A ~2200 DOURIKI.
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Also Zoro would care if he thought Luffy was stronger then him. His desire is to be the best swordsman and sure Luffy isnt a swordsman but do you think is attitude is going to be like
"Its ok since you dont find with swords I'm you can be stronger then me."
Obviously not because Zoro likes challenging everyone.
ie when Luffy and Zoro are in Jaya and Burgess screams he's Champ both Luffy and Zoro wanted to fight him and Burgess obviously is not a swordsman.
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Hehe yeah maybe you're right.
Luffy may or may not be stronger, but i guess that's that. There's no way to prove or disprove it. The Red Book can say that Zoro is in Luffy's range of power, that is, level 6, but we don't know just how much fluctuation there is to it. There may or may not be a difference in terms of power. Their bounties cannot be used either since the captain of a crew is always more likely to get a higher bounty, due to his/her tenacity to start building the crew up. Their only fight which Oda drew was inconclusive. Only Oda can say whether Luffy's dream can take him higher than Zoro's.
Yes… That's the point... You summarized it very well...
I think that Oda has placed them on the same level, or, at least, on the same "power class"... And if they were actually even in the past (they probably were) we don't know if they still are...
We need proofs...In other words, we can just agree to disagree for now. I still think that Luffy is marginally stronger than Zoro, but then again, that's my own opinion, and yours can always differ. So, you're right. The best way is to have a Straw Hats intra-battle to resolve this
That's right… But they would need a good reason to fight at full force... And thinking about it, I guess that showing his strength would be a good reason for two like them...The question as to who's stronger between Luffy and Zoro may be answered in the future.
Remember when Zoro first joined up with Luffy? He said that if being a pirate interfered with his dream, he'd take Luffy's life. He's also gotten more tense and serious since the start of the series. This is probably because he knows the dangers of the Grand Line and achieving his dream, and that fooling around and rushing in could be fatal. Unlike Luffy, he doesn't view it as some fun adventure, which is why he showed such animosity towards him in chapter 435 when Luffy wanted to simply let Usopp back into the crew.
I can see Zoro getting more and more tense, especially after they move on towards the New World and his serious attitude clashing with Luffy's natural sense of adventure. At that point, it's also a possibility that Zoro's bounty is so high that the government and Marines are practically up his ass, so that definately will interfere with his dream some and force him back to the vow he made when he joined the crew.
I like this scenario you immagined…
And, actually in the second episode itself Zoro "promised" it to Luffy and a fight for this reason would be a lot exciting...
In the Red Book Oda stated that the Wiskey Peak one was the first fight between Luffy and Zoro, so it can hide a will to draw another one...I always thought the top 3 are barely on the same strenght-level…
And they probably are…
I hate that Everybody put Sanji out cause of that he isn't fighting to be the strongest…
Well, but we always see that the will to fight makes you stronger, because it gives you a reason to not lose… I guess that Sanji could show a power equal to Luffy/Zoro if he would have to seriously defend a girl for example...
When you compare the strenght of Zoro and Luffy cause of his fight in Whiskey Peak… Ok I agree with you that Zoro and Luffy are on the same level... but you have to see the dact that Oda always gives us hints... that Sanji and Zoro are on the same level too... but I think some of you don't like too see that...
I think that in the early arcs. Sanji was quite weaker than Luffy and Zoro and it was shown… But... Actualy now it really seems that he is getting a lot closer at least... I can't understand why, considering that he doesn't train so much, but...:wassat:
For the Lucci fight… Luffy had gig problems even with Gear 2 against him... Zoro and Sanji won their fights with the new upgrades a lot easier and faster...
Yes, that's a possible proof…
So I have to say… Luffy>=Zoro>=Sanji
Yes… I guess it could be right... Or at least it's possibly right... In the last arcs. in particular...
Sanji is defintely behing Zoro and Luffy fighting wise.
He used to be, but as for now, we don't know…
As for Luffy and Zoro, I think it's pretty clear that Luffy is slightly stronger than Zoro,but they're in the same power range.
Yes, they of course are of the same range… But I don't see where you clear see this stronger power of Luffy, even if slight...
Luffy >>> Zoro >/= Sanji > Franky > the rest.
Try to add some more ">>>>>" to that and you will not a have a Luffy VS Zoro but a Mihawk VS Zoro…Sure that's a mean thing to say, but when I still see Whiskey Peak being brought up as a justification for why Zoro and Luffy are equals it leaves me completely at a loss as to how to coherently respond without being an ass.
:whistling: Well… If you can find proofs against the Wiskey Peak fact that show this "huge" gap between Luffy and Zoro, you are welcome...
Until now we all see that they are pretty much equal... Yes... Anyone of us could suppose a difference between them, but we are all talking of slight gaps...Luffy is the captain and is the strongest for various reasons.
The only reasons I see are the capitan/main character fact… But the fact that he is supposed to be the strongest due to his role doesn't mean that he is for Oda...
Let it be known that the reason why I think that Luffy is stronger than Zoro is because I read the manga and I'm not blind.
If your eyes can see wide, you should see that anytime Oda puts them in comparison, they result as equal or almost equal at least…
I red the manga as you did and, apart from the fact of Wiskey Peak, I always saw an equilibrium between them… So tell me where the opposite is shown... -
Oh yeah, god forbid I have a Luffy avatar on a One Piece centric forum. God, that must make me TEH BIGGST LUFFY-TARD EVAR. [/sarcasm]
Let it be known that the reason why I think that Luffy is stronger than Zoro is because I read the manga and I'm not blind. Let it also be known that my favourite Straw Hat is neither Luffy nor Zoro, it's Sanji.
Geez, this is why I hate these kinds of threads. :getlost:
~ jj ~
no the fact that u put Luffy >>> zoro makes u a Luffytard. Luffy > Zoro >/= Sanji > Franky > the rest that would be more in line i would think even though I personally would have it Luffy > Zoro > Sanji > Franky/Robin > Chopper >>>>>>> Nami/Usopp.
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I guess she would own Luffy too then they should make her captain.
Luffy's rubber body makes him immune to virtually any conceivable attack Robin could perform and also would enable him to escape her holds in ways that a more solid person could not.
Chopper's powers would make him less susceptible to her style too, since he could rapidly change his body size to escape her holds.
