Luffy & Zoro (Potential Spoilers)

[Juraquille Mihawk]

Well I've been having this thought for quite some time now and the reason I'm
starting this thread is because [SPOILERS] I wanted to see if Zoro would deal with Kaku and Jyabura all by himself or if anyone else would butt in. (I.e. Sanji in recent chapters) [/SPOILERS]

From the beginning of the series, Oda introduced the (imo) two main characters of One Piece battle-wise. We were lead to believe that Zoro and Luffy were almost equal in strength and both of them were after a Major Goal – Pirate King and Best Swordsman. As shown later in Whiskey Peak, Luffy and Zoro were pretty close in combat prowess. So I had the feeling that if Zoro was to be a near equal of Luffy he'd have to fight both CP9s standing in front of him, Kaku and Jabs. Judging by their ratings Zoro's advs would have a sum of 4380 and Luffy would battle a 4000 monster,showing that Zoro could rival Luffy. On the other hand, Zoro vs Kaku is not resolved yet and for all we know, Zoro could finish of Kaku without getting beat up for a change and show that he was far above Kaku's skill level thus closer to Luffy if his fight with Lucci proves to be a pain in the ass.

Anyway my point for the thread is, what do you think of the relative difference in power between Luffy and Zoro? Is the Enies Lobby arc the place where Luffy stands above Zoro and defines a boundary in their respective skill? Or does Oda have a secret we don't know as of yet?

[Polygon]

**Your using the point system to litterally. We don't even know what it measures exactly.

And I believe Zoro = Luffy. Always has been always will be.**

[Ivotas]

My opinion is that the term "spoiler" has been used way too often lately. That´s all. :D

[Darkestsith6]

Luffy with his gears, in my opinion, would wreck Zoro now. I think it is evident that Luffy is moving to a league where he will be able to battle Akoji, and Zoro the others.

I my opinion, I always thought of Luffy as ahead of Zoro, and tht Sanji and Zoro were close to each other. In power scale, I'd so something like

100 = Luffy
80 = Zoro
76 = Sanji

[odlam]

Ive been wondering about that myself actually.

But then again, we know that Luffy has stepped up his game with gears, so he already has his "power up"

Zoro on the other hand, has yet to acquire his. He will probably make some advancement while in his battle with Kaku that moves him up another notch.

[Masta D.]

Luffy (Gear)>>>Zoro=Sanji>Luffy>>>Nico Robin IMO.

Also, I too think people are using way too many spoilers.

[Polygon]

@Darkestsith6:

Luffy with his gears, in my opinion, would wreck Zoro now. I think it is evident that Luffy is moving to a league where he will be able to battle Akoji, and Zoro the others.

I my opinion, I always thought of Luffy as ahead of Zoro, and tht Sanji and Zoro were close to each other. In power scale, I'd so something like

100 = Luffy
80 = Zoro
76 = Sanji

I hope you mean near the end of one piece. and I rember in an SBS oda said zoro and luffy were even and that sanji was close behind them.

[goty]

After 413, i think it's very clear that Zoro couldn't handle Kaku and Jyabura by himself. He's having a HARD time against Kaku and obviously wouldn't be able to help Sogeking/fight Jyabura at the same time. In fact, after the Gears, i think Luffy is much ahead, and the difference between him and Zoro right now is much bigger than Zoro and Sanji, like Darkestsith6 and Masta D said.

[CodedTech]

I'd say Zoro and Luffy are equal and will most likely continue to be for some time. I doubt that Zoro can match up to Luffy and his gears from what he's shown, though at the same time, I'll be surprised if Zoro doesn't display something new during the current fights that would once again put him on the level of Luffy using his Gears. If not this arc, at least soon enough.

[zero chan]

Actually, the title of chapter 414 kind of tells us that Sanji is fighting Jyabura, 1 on 1, which leaves Kaku to Zoro. Hence, Zoro is not going to handle Jyabura and Kaku at the same time.

Regarding the power difference between Luffy and Zoro, I can't tell much. Luffy handles opponents with different kind of fighting strategies, whereas Zoro handles mostly swordsmen. It looks like Luffy is slightly more versatile, not necessarily stronger. For example, Luffy can defeat a lightning guy becos of the nature of his body, but Zoro will probably nv be able to do that no matter how strong he becomes, unless Oda wants to come out with sth abt cutting element.

[Robot Chicken]

I'd estimate Luffy at around 4500 douriki with the Gears, and Zoro is about 4200…so without the Gears, I'd say Zoro=Luffy. Still, Zoro might could take Kaku and Jyabura at the same time if he avoided one of them for awhile, or got them separated.

[Buccaneer]

I will leave doriki out because it makes for extremely lame arguments. Instead, I'll use examples. Feel free to question any I'm going by.

@Octogon:

I hope you mean near the end of one piece. and I rember in an SBS oda said zoro and luffy were even and that sanji was close behind them.

In physical strength, yeah. Luffy and Zoro are even and Sanji is a level under. Fight wise, I'd say Luffy and Zoro started out even, and Zoro jumped a bit ahead around Alabasta. He made all of those revolutions each fight, which were a bit more than just moves. Gear 2 Luffy is ahead by a bit more, imo. I'm not sure of Sanji now, but he was generally not all that great outside of martial arts.

[Virgilijus]

My opinion has always been Luffy being stronger than Zoro; not by much (I mean Zoro is a swordsman and Luffy is weakest against them), but he is and always will be stronger than him. In my mind, I remember when Mihawk asked Luffy what was his goal and Luffy said to be the Pirate King. Mihawk then said that it would be a bigger undertaking than becoming the greatest swordsman (or something fairly close to that). So I always pictured Luffy being one step up on Zoro. Sanji, on the other hand, may catch up to Zoro when he learns to kick through steel, but until then he will be an even smaller step behind Zoro.

[WarcoW]

Luffy being the main character and not having any ongoing rivalry theme being built up with Zoro since Whiskey Peak would have him far stronger than Zoro at the end of the series.
Zoro and Sanji's competitiveness and the fact that they are facing equally skilled opponents puts them on the same tier.

[Buccaneer]

Skilled? You mean they have similar doriki. Sanji and Zoro are fighting completely differently enemies in different ways with different skills.

I can see Luffy being stronger in the end, but not because of what Mihawk said. Mihawk could have referred to there being more enemies at that level, since being a pirate is a crime itself and being a swordsman isn't. Plus there's the fact that he has to sail and all that.

[smurfx]

@Darkestsith6:

Luffy with his gears, in my opinion, would wreck Zoro now. I think it is evident that Luffy is moving to a league where he will be able to battle Akoji, and Zoro the others.

I my opinion, I always thought of Luffy as ahead of Zoro, and tht Sanji and Zoro were close to each other. In power scale, I'd so something like

100 = Luffy
80 = Zoro
76 = Sanji

i don't think luffy would wreck zoro with gears. you don't think mihawk would be able to give aokiji a hell of a fight? luffy and zorro will always have similar power since realizing their dreams requires so much power.

[Buccaneer]

Well, even though it wouldn't determine how Luffy would fare against Zoro, Aokiji would beat Mihawk's ass up and down the Grandline, if only because no amount of cutting would stop him.

Now that I think about it, Gear 2 would probably only beat Zoro if by suprise.

[Aldrich]

Do you honestly think Mihawk could have reached that Shichibukai and strongest swordman in the world level if he wasn't able to fight against Logias? There must be a way for him to cut through elements, same than with that "earing the breath of rock" bullshit for Zoro but on a higher level.

[Buccaneer]

Notice, Aokiji. So my point isn't being able to cut through, my point is being able to stop. Breaking Aokiji isn't the greatest accomplishment there is, as he can simply reassemble.

But anyway, why do people assume fighters of a high status can punch through lightning or something (ex. Whitebeard and Ener)? Think it if you want, but I dunno why you'd take it for granted when none of these people have showed any strength or skill.

[Aldrich]

By "cutting through", I meant being able to hurt him in his elemental form like if he was made of flesh.

I assume he must be able to fight against Logias as we know the Marines have two Logias under their command, why would they allow a pirate of Mihawk's level to roam free if they could just call Smoker and have him beat the crap out of Mihawk with his kairouseki jutte after he'd have immobilized him with his smoke?

[Buccaneer]

Did Mihawk really need to be beaten for safety? People question Lucci's strength because the Shichibukai exist. But why would they risk a powerful being if unnecessary? Something could happen along the way, like Mihawk figuring out a way to fight each element accordingly. No matter how likely, it's still a pointless risk to take.

And the thing is, cutting through is still just like breaking, unless there's some sort of way for Mihawk to channel "Extra Pain" through his sword or something.

[TheSonofBattles]

@Aldrich:

I assume he must be able to fight against Logias as we know the Marines have two Logias under their command, why would they allow a pirate of Mihawk's level to roam free if they could just call Smoker and have him beat the crap out of Mihawk with his kairouseki jutte after he'd have immobilized him with his smoke?

Because the Shichibukai isn't about hiring on pirates they can't defeat and/or control. Its hiring on pirates with a reputation so large, a reputation so dangerous that other pirates will be instantly intimadated by them.

Whether they're defeatable or not by any marine or marine personelle has nothing to do with it.

[Polygon]

@Buccaneer:

In physical strength, yeah. Luffy and Zoro are even and Sanji is a level under. Fight wise, I'd say Luffy and Zoro started out even, and Zoro jumped a bit ahead around Alabasta. He made all of those revolutions each fight, which were a bit more than just moves. Gear 2 Luffy is ahead by a bit more, imo. I'm not sure of Sanji now, but he was generally not all that great outside of martial arts.

I generally agree. But I'm sure Zoro will up the antie an show us once again he is even with luffy. Zoro is to luffy what newgate is to Roger.

Aokiji would beat Mihawk's ass up and down the Grandline, if only because no amount of cutting would stop him.

I disagree. In one of the data books I think it says Mihawk can cut the elements. This leads me to believe that there is some way to actually damage logias regardless of there forms. Maybe it has to do with the fact that when a logia becomes there element attacks only oush the elements aside not actually damage them. Who knows perhaps there is a way to attack molecules and cause harm to the logia. Rest assured there is a way to defeat logias, I'm certain.

[Aldrich]

@TheSonofBattles:

Because the Shichibukai isn't about hiring on pirates they can't defeat and/or control. Its hiring on pirates with a reputation so large, a reputation so dangerous that other pirates will be instantly intimadated by them.

Whether they're defeatable or not by any marine or marine personelle has nothing to do with it.

True you have a point here.

@Octogon:

In one of the data books I think it says Mihawk can cut the elements.

There's nothing like that in Grand Characters nor in Grand Date File. Though I agree about the fact there's a way to defeat Logias besides using their elemental opposite like water for Croc or rubber for Enel.

[MasterDee]

This post is deleted!

[Polygon]

@Aldrich:

There's nothing like that in Grand Characters nor in Grand Date File. Though I agree about the fact there's a way to defeat Logias besides using their elemental opposite like water for Croc or rubber for Enel.

**Well, I was just going by what I heard. guess I heard wrong.

But I think it has to do with something on a molecular level.**

[CodedTech]

Well regardless of if it was in the Grand Character or Grand Data File book (which I heard it was, but then again I never saw any proof) The whole flashback with Zoro and his teacher was about there being swordsmen being able to cut anything.

The "Strongest Blade"… has the power to protect what it wants to protect and cut what it wants to cut.

So I'd assume that if Mihawk is indeed the best swordsman, he'd have the ability to cut "what he wants to cut." Though it may not be relevant, as it was speaking metaphorically it seems, Mihawk's blade was called the strongest blade in the world.

[MasterDee]

@Buccaneer:

And the thing is, cutting through is still just like breaking, unless there's some sort of way for Mihawk to channel "Extra Pain" through his sword or something.

If Zoro is able to hear "the breath of steel" and cut steel, it might be possible for Mihawk, who is at a completely different level than Zoro, to hear "the breath of fire," "the breath of lightning," "the breath of ice, " etc… and cut those elements respectively at the atomic/subatomic level or something. Aokiji is able to reassemble himself from ice, but is he able to reassemble atoms/molecules/subatomic particles? That's the theory anyway. I think that's what Aldrich was getting at.

[Buccaneer]

The thing to understand here is that splitting does nothing to these elements so far. Diamonds and steel can be difficicult, but once cut, aare finished. A sword can divide Ener, Croc, Ace, and the rest, but it does nothing, and talking about breaking them down at a subatomic level isn't an idea close to being implied by Oda, and that's why I kinda ignore that point.

[anothrnobdy]

Has it ever been stated what Mihawk's sword was made out of? I always figured it was seastone ever since that element was introduced. It would explain how he could defeat Logia users if he needed.

[cfmrfrpfmsf]

umm yeah it either red or blue, can't remember which one is stated that "Mihawk is strong enough to cut through elements like fire lightning and ice" give or take a few words, not only as an acount of his stength but also a way of saying he could beat certain un-introduced characters at that point.

[Selph]

Luffy - 100
Zoro - 60
Sanji - 59

[Geese]

@Darkestsith6:

Luffy with his gears, in my opinion, would wreck Zoro now. I think it is evident that Luffy is moving to a league where he will be able to battle Akoji, and Zoro the others.

I my opinion, I always thought of Luffy as ahead of Zoro, and tht Sanji and Zoro were close to each other. In power scale, I'd so something like

100 = Luffy
80 = Zoro
76 = Sanji

Absolutely. There's no chance in hell Zoro could keep up with Luffy in Gear 2. I'd have to say though that Selph's "ratings" seem a little more accurate to me.

[Buccaneer]

If he knows about it, he has a chance. Zoro definitely isn't a slouch in speed, being able to keep up with Kaku's sword skills perfectly, who is definitely competent enough to take Kuro out. Besides that, Gear 2 is terrible on gas. Luffy tried to move onto 3 when Blueno didn't fall, and he was obviously tired from it. The biggest proble with 2nd would be bracing for the hits. 3rd would probably beat him really badly, though.

[cfmrfrpfmsf]

how can you base things off the existence of gears? three literally has been SEEN in action and two was barely seen and what it did wasn't even explained

[Kokolores]

It's a special ability of us fanboys and fangirls. We are able to estimate the special abilities of any character just by looking him in the eye. Once you have reached a certain level you just feel the awesomeness, don't worry I'm sure you'll be able to do it too. :laugh:

[WarcoW]

@Buccaneer:

Skilled? You mean they have similar doriki. Sanji and Zoro are fighting completely differently enemies in different ways with different skills.

Like i said in one of the previous threads, i see douriki as a measure of their skill in their art form. Lucci > Kaku/Jabs > the rest (while not counting their DF powers).
It's a bit vague once you include DF powers cos Kaku doesn't have as much experience with his as Jabs does.

Gear 2 makes Luffy a lot faster than someone like Blueno. While Zoro/Sanji are more than capable of handling Kaku and Jabs' soru. Gear 3 on the other hand may just be a one hit wonder for all we know.

[Aldrich]

@cfmrfrpfmsf:

umm yeah it either red or blue, can't remember which one is stated that "Mihawk is strong enough to cut through elements like fire lightning and ice" give or take a few words, not only as an acount of his stength but also a way of saying he could beat certain un-introduced characters at that point.

Then it was never translated in the french versions, cause I can't find anything about it in the parts about Mihawk.

@MasterDee:

If Zoro is able to hear "the breath of steel" and cut steel, it might be possible for Mihawk, who is at a completely different level than Zoro, to hear "the breath of fire," "the breath of lightning," "the breath of ice, " etc… and cut those elements respectively at the atomic/subatomic level or something. Aokiji is able to reassemble himself from ice, but is he able to reassemble atoms/molecules/subatomic particles? That's the theory anyway. I think that's what Aldrich was getting at.

Yeah that's what I meant, though I don't really care how Oda explains it, be it pseudoscientific theories that actually don't make any sense or the fact he fights with a kairouseki sword. I'd just find it lame if Logias were on top of the food chain of the One Piece world, hence the need for major characters like Mihawk, Whitebeard, Shanks etc to have a way to hurt them.

[Buccaneer]

So you'd find it lame if being able to beat A though Y didn't directly mean an ability to beat Z. Different people, different fights.

@cfmrfrpfmsf:

how can you base things off the existence of gears? three literally has been SEEN in action and two was barely seen and what it did wasn't even explained

I said nothing definite about Gear 3. Notice the word "probably." Gear 2….please don't try to deny that it left him tired. And you really think he'd be using his normal strength against Lucci if there wasn't a drawback?

[Virgilijus]

For Mihawk defeating a Logia, there is always the Sea-Stone sword which his black sword may or may not be (though I am inclined to say no)…

[onemoment]

@Virgilijus:

For Mihawk defeating a Logia, there is always the Sea-Stone sword which his black sword may or may not be (though I am inclined to say no)…

I have a feeling that before OP is over, some Logia beating techniques will show up. Maybe Zoro and Mihawks will unveil (in Zoro's case 'learn') technique's that "cut the wind." Or something.

[odlam]

I honestly think that the reason for the current "gap" between Luffy and Zoro is due more to plot purposes then anything else.

If Zoro was already as strong as Luffy has become, it would destroy the tension between himself and Kaku. For plot purposes, Zoro has to be behind the curve a this point by a bit, but it won't last long. Everybody seems to be getting an advancement in thier lethality in these battles. Franky is a new character, but we still saw quite a bit from him in his battle. Chopper of course featered the third Rumble Ball. Nami featured the perfect Climatact. Ussopp/Sogeking has Kabuto and is slowly discovering how he can contribute to the team, etc.

IMO? Sanji will defeat Jyabura, but not without serious injury, and his will make an advancement in skill, but nothing like the Gears or whatever Zoro will also unveil.

Before this battle ends, Zoro will unveil a major new enhancement to his swordsman ship that could potentially rival the gears in power/drawbacks, and keeps him in the game with Luffy. Had he had this ability perfected from the start, Kaku would have gone down much faster.

And of course Luffy will wow us all with the gears and thier true potential, I think we haven't even seen the tip of the iceberg yet, nor do I think gear 2 is the last gear he has.

[Skull Kid]

@Masta:

Luffy (Gear)>>>Zoro=Sanji>Luffy>>>Nico Robin IMO.

Also, I too think people are using way too many spoilers.

Oda said Luffy was stronger than Zoro and Sanji, and I don't think he means just with gears. Base Luffy is slightly stronger than both of them, and I'm sick of base Luffy being made out to be weaker than he is just because he has gears now. Base Luffy owned Crocodile and punched through like ten feet of bedrock. Hes also holding his own against Lucci right now without the gears, and could of probably beaten Blueno without them if he wasn't in such a hurry.

[tony-kun]

nah, I always saw sanji and zoro as equals, and luffy being stronger than both of them. like zoro is the upper body while sanji is lower body. zoros swords put him at an advantage, but as weve seen, sanjis knife skills rival seem to be like zoros.

Its hard to judge whos stronger since they both have completely different fighting styles, and fighting with your legs is completely different than fighting with your arms. but theyve both shown superhuman strength using both.(zoro chucked a building at Mr.1, and sanji kicked a giant merman up with one leg)

so Imo, luffy is the strongest and zoro = sanji, at least thats what I think oda is trying to show us.(they always say the same thing, and then say, thats my line.)

Also theyre rivalry and dislike of eachother seems to work towards my theory(opposites attract, similar repels)

Also pirate king and greatest swordsman are 2 different things, I dont think zoros goal is nearly as big as luffys goal. zoros goal just gives him satisfaction and affects other swordsmen, while luffys affect the whole world, also zoros is alot easier to accomplish, all he has to do is beat mihawk, luffy needs to gain the respect of the whole world.

the onl thing that makes zoro any more superior is his swords, but on pure strength, luffy> zoro = sanji

and the strength of the mugiwaras goes like

luffy
robin
zoro(with swords)
sanji
chopper(with rumble ball)
nami(with perfect clima tact)
ussop

I put with weapons because its easier to predict with them.

also, I dont think zoro will gain anything like the gears, but maybe master that breath thing or a new technique(like the pound cannon moves) but nothing like the gears.

[Polygon]

@Skull:

Oda said Luffy was stronger than Zoro and Sanji, and I don't think he means just with gears. Base Luffy is slightly stronger than both of them, and I'm sick of base Luffy being made out to be weaker than he is just because he has gears now. Base Luffy owned Crocodile and punched through like ten feet of bedrock. Hes also holding his own against Lucci right now without the gears, and could of probably beaten Blueno without them if he wasn't in such a hurry.

Oda never said that. But he did say that Luffy and zoro were equals and sanji was a litle behind. And I believe OP will end that way.

[ITSALION]

Doesn't anyone remember what Luffy said while fighting Blueno?
He's only the captain because he can kick more ass than ANYONE ELSE IN HIS CREW.
That includes Zoro. Zoro is slightly less powerful than Luffy. Kinda like how Jabura has 20 less doriki than Kaku.

[WarcoW]

@Octogon:

Oda never said that. But he did say that Luffy and zoro were equals and sanji was a litle behind. And I believe OP will end that way.

That was only a measure of physical power…...way back before Gears even existed.

EDIT - What i mean is Zoro/luffy had 6 points in physical strength in one of the databooks while Sanji had 5. And thats about all Oda has given about which of his characters are stronger. IMO Oda likes all of his main characters the same so he would rather not go into the who is stronger than who debate. Pretty much why he leaves mild hints here and there. Hence the godlike improvement Nami had, hence the character development Usopp is having and the one Chopper will have soon.

@ Odlam - Jyabura is already fighting an injured Sanji. So Sanji defeating him in the state he is speaks more about his strength than just randomly popping new techniques (not that that isn't cool in its own way).

[Buccaneer]

@IT'S:

Doesn't anyone remember what Luffy said while fighting Blueno?
He's only the captain because he can kick more ass than ANYONE ELSE IN HIS CREW.
That includes Zoro. Zoro is slightly less powerful than Luffy. Kinda like how Jabura has 20 less doriki than Kaku.

Bringing doriki is bad, but making up your own quote is kinda worse. He wants have the strength to protect his crew, but that doesn't mean his crew is helpless, weak without him, or unable to fend for themselves. It's just that he has responsibility for all of their lives instead of just his own.

I pretty much end up agreeing with odlam.

[Polygon]

@WarcoW:

That was only a measure of physical power…...way back before Gears even existed.

How do you know it was physiccal power? and you guys are acting like gears make luffy stronger than zoro by far.

EDIT - What i mean is Zoro/luffy had 6 points in physical strength in one of the databooks while Sanji had 5. And thats about all Oda has given about which of his characters are stronger. IMO Oda likes all of his main characters the same so he would rather not go into the who is stronger than who debate. Pretty much why he leaves mild hints here and there. Hence the godlike improvement Nami had, hence the character development Usopp is having and the one Chopper will have soon.

I'm not talking about the databooks. I never even brung them up. Oda said this in an SBS. It was a while ago, but I doubt it will change. And don't act as if luffy being the captain automaticly makes him the strongest. Name opne of luffy's enemies that zoro couldn't beat. Excluding those people who have some kind of advatage over zoro, like buggy or enel.

@ Odlam - Jyabura is already fighting an injured Sanji. So Sanji defeating him in the state he is speaks more about his strength than just randomly popping new techniques (not that that isn't cool in its own way).

**How is he injuried.

Just like buc I agree with Odlam.**

[Aldrich]

@Buccaneer:

So you'd find it lame if being able to beat A though Y didn't directly mean an ability to beat Z. Different people, different fights.

I dislike the fact people automatically assume Logias are superior to other fighters, I'd hate if Whitebeard, labelled "the strongest man in the world", was another Logia, if all the strongest characters in the One Piece world were Logias, I'd find it unimaginative from Oda, and it sure isn't an adjective that fits him.

Besides, the only known way yet to defeat Logias is to take advantage of their weakness, their opposite element, like water against sand, rubber against thunder or even salt against ice… But what are you supposed to do against wind and earth for ex? You're fucked if you have to fight them as Luffy fought the two Logias he defeated, that's why I think new anti-Logias techniques must be introduced, and what better characters than Zoro and Mihawk to use them?