Chopper reverting

cfmrfrpfmsf

spoilers for 413

after getting knocked into the sea, choppers devil fruit stops working. then why does he go to his hybrid form? shouldnt the sea cause him to revert to his all reindeer form? is this a plothole or is there an explanation somewhere?

TheSonofBattles

Maybe because its the form he uses most, and his body is now after setting it to default as it were. Bit of an iffy explanation really, but it works well enough for me to be honest.

MushroomBoy

yeah, i often wondered why he is in half way form most. mostly for talking, i suppose.

but yeah, i figure since he uses it most, like the guy before me said.

Orca18

It's simply because Tanuki form is the cute one.

TheSonofBattles

Yea, he presumably uses it most because its the most non threatening, normal looking one he has. To someone so used to being greeted by hatred and revulsion both by humans and reindeers, once he found a home and a family he would have wanted to make every small step possible to make sure he kept both, and making himself seem as cute and non threatening as he could is an obvious step in that direction.

Aldrich

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Kuzan

simplest explanation: maybe because it was the form he was using when he took the third ball? :hm:

d.Lughie

hmm.. probably yeah.. in the flashback too.. everytime chopper got injured or what.. or when he goes unconscious.. he is always in the hybrid form.. for the manga sake.. ^^ it probably because he used that form the most..

but I guess.. Oda kinda considered Chopper CHOPPER.. not reindeer or human…

Aldrich

Serious reply: yes, it's a plothole. As we've said before, being surrounded by water prevents Devil Fruit users to control their powers. As Chopper's tanuki form is his half human/half animal form, he has to consciously choose to stay in that shape. Now that he's lost this control he should have came back to his reindeer animal form.

Orca18

or maybe drawing tanuki form is easier than any other forms ^^; My friend who also can draw manga said that drawing chibi is always more easier than normal anatomy.

COWMAKAZE

Have we ever seen another zoan fall in water? Ever? Perhaps half-and-half is the default form for every zoan, but some just choose to stay in their original forms. We really can't prove otherwise unless one has come into contact with kairouseki or water.

odlam

Ya, as others have mentioned, Chopper's tankuki form seems more natural to him than even his original form at this point. When he is knocked out or injured, this is still the form he reverts to, and its no different here when hes exposed to water.

I think Oda simply considers this to be Chopper's base form, regardless of devil fruit logic. He could come up with any number of explanations if he cares to, but it doesn't really bother me. This is how I've always imagined Chopper anyways when hes not using his df actively, not in his full animal form.

CosmicDebris

Sounds like a job for SBS.

Dr.Chopper

@Kuzan:

simplest explanation: maybe because it was the form he was using when he took the third ball? :hm:

Nice. This would be the most logical explaination. When you say, "the one he uses most," it just sounds like a bad excuse =\

blacky

@CosmicDebris:

Sounds like a job for SBS.

Oda: "The reason is … that there's no reason! Next question!"

Polygon

Most likley because those with a zoan fruit don't really have a "dominant" side. It's their preferance.

Desperado

Because it's the form people (including Oda) regard as normal because he
uses it most. The master obviously didn't think of it.

onemoment

Is this a plothole? Either for Chopper the half from is his normal form, or they change into the form he took the rumble ball in–like mentioned before.

Also, does being unconscious change zoans into their original form? I remember Chaka being laid out by Crocodile yet remaining in his half form.

Maybe being introduced to sea and seastone doesn't change the devil fruit user back but takes their ability to use their power.

Enel when introduced to seastone stayed in his human from, or couldn't change to lightning.
Luffy underwater could still stretch in Arlong park, and paramecia are "always" in one form.

Maybe a zoan form users wouldn't change back into their normal form while in the presence of sea, but just lose his strength and power to change form.

Onigumo

How about this? Choppers weakest form is his 50/50 form. So that is the form that he is most likely to revert to? This isn't the first time he fell into the ocean. I remember another time he fell into the ocean in Jumping point, as was hauled out by Zoro in his 50/50 form.

So yeah…That's my random, baseless theory...The zoan user reverts to their weakest form.

zero chan

@Aldrich:

Serious reply: yes, it's a plothole. As we've said before, being surrounded by water prevents Devil Fruit users to control their powers. As Chopper's tanuki form is his half human/half animal form, he has to consciously choose to stay in that shape. Now that he's lost this control he should have came back to his reindeer animal form.

I can't be sure about that. So far we have not seen other Zoans falling into the water, so we can never be sure what factors determine the form a zoan takes after falling into the water. In fact, I thought this is an SBS worthy question.

gallowsx

no if a zoan user falls into the water he just can't change to another form because he looses all his powers, and he can't swim…

... in this case chopper lost all his powers (giant chopper to normal chopper) and returned to the form he was before he took the rumble ball... there's no plothole :S

Kuzan

@gallowsx:

no if a zoan user falls into the water he just can't change to another form because he looses all his powers, and he can't swim…

... in this case chopper lost all his powers (giant chopper to normal chopper) and returned to the form he was before he took the rumble ball... there's no plothole :S

Exactly. Luffy keeps being gomu when he is in the water (see arlong park luffy's stretched neck under water). In the same way, chopper keeps being a tanuki, an human, or a reindeer, depending of the last form.

Kureha said that with the 3rd ball a "collapse of the devil fruit control" happens. So I think that in this case the water is just fixing that collapse by "taming" the demon power and incidentally, rendering chopper powerless, but he mantains the form he had (in the same way that luffy can be stretched under water). The problem is that people here are seeing those things as the same event.

Aldrich

@Kuzan:

Exactly. Luffy keeps being gomu when he is in the water (see arlong park luffy's stretched neck under water). In the same way, chopper keeps being a tanuki, an human, or a reindeer, depending of the last form.

Kureha said that with the 3rd ball a "collapse of the devil fruit control" happens. So I think that in this case the water is just fixing that collapse by "taming" the demon power and incidentally, rendering chopper powerless, but he mantains the form he had (in the same way that luffy can be stretched under water). The problem is that people here are seeing those things as the same event.

But it isn't logical. It makes no sense that being surrounded by water would cancel one of his transformations (the giant monster) but not another (the tanuki). And the fact it was the form he used before eating the third rumble ball doesn't change anything.

Also, the comparison with Luffy isn't a good one as the nature of paramecias and zoans powers is completely different. Paramecias like Luffy have permanent powers that aren't triggered consciously, which isn't the case for zoans or logias. Luffy is rubber whether he wants it or not, while Chopper is a tanuki because he chooses to.

A better comparison would be with Enel, we saw that kairouseki prevented him from using his powers, which meant that he couldn't turn his body into electricity anymore and thus reverted back to his original, "human" form. So water should prevent Chopper from using his shape-shifting abilities and make him revert to his original reindeer form.

At least that's how I see it.

Aldrich

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Kibagami

BLASPHEMY

I shall now proceed to block out all memory of this thread.

EDIT: Whoa Tsugomaru! How did u manage to post in the future (even when it says I'm the lastest poster)

hyper_megaman

u just lose control over the form, but doesn't cancel out ur powers?

the rumble ball just initiated the transformation, the monster somehow kept it going that way, we know that it is obviously not within chopper's power to intiate it himself BUT he takes a lot of energy in maintaining it. expending energy requires control.

so that's my theory, because that monster form is unnatural.

d3adpool

I liked gallowsx explanation so i'll try to elaborate it a bit better:

First, how does Rumble Ball works:
It modify the "waves" wich affect Zoan transformation allowing to reach another forms for a short period of time. I believe this short period is the time the Rumble Ball is in the organism. Three minutes. After that the effects halt. Chopper knows which "wave-length" he should use his transformation to achieve a certain form and when he takes a second rumble ball in less than 6 hours the "waves" are to erratic and he can't control which form to get.

Then we have the usage of a third rumble ball: Chopper loses conscience and changes into ChopperKong, it obsviously stayed for more than 3 minutes. Now it's were I start to make a small leap: What happens when someone overdose cocaine? There is too much drug in their body for it to handle and it causes malfunctioning.

Rumble ball is a drug nonetheless. So after consuming a much greater dosage than the usual Choppers body don't know how to use that much Rumbleness and the "waves" all go crazy crazy.

Second, when a DF user fall into the water:
It was said through the manga is that the user looses power and can't swim. We saw it happen when Luffy fell into the water while fighting Arlong. He lost power, couldn't swim but his abilities were still there. The old dude and nami's sister made use of his rubber to extent his head above water.

Before concluding I have to add that after a zoan is using a form his "waves" are naturally set to this form. Otherwise everytime they were asleep a zoan user would revert to his original form.

So Third RumbleBall + Water:
Water drained choppers powers and stabilized the zoan "waves" making him go to the form he was when he started taking the Rumble Ball.

I'm prolly wrong but felt like writing. Another good argument is that after becoming a Zoan the user no longer has a native form.

Another good example is where Luffy was in the water in the Arlong arc. He himself is not able to use his powers but he still retained his powers of stretching.

However, this explains the extent of devil fruit powers in waters and does not explain why Chopper even reverted.

hyper_megaman

let's put it this way.

the monster form is unnatural, which is kickstarted by the rumble ball.
it's just like a person, who has a bonfire kickstarted by a matchstick.
and all the person can do(the control of the zoan fruit) is throw lumber(energy) into the bonfire and keep the fire going. by dropping chopper into the water, it's like stopping the person from throwing anymore lumber into the fire, until the fire goes out

THEN the fire has been put out, and won't be restarted again no matter how hard u throw the lumber. it won't restart until he takes 3 rumble balls to kickstart it again

cfmrfrpfmsf

what does that have to do with him going back to his hybrid form? really no one was confused at why he reverted at all, just why he went to that form

hyper_megaman

@cfmrfrpfmsf:

what does that have to do with him going back to his hybrid form? really no one was confused at why he reverted at all, just why he went to that form

'by dropping chopper into the water, it's like stopping the person from throwing anymore lumber into the fire, until the fire goes out'

Chubbychez

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Chubbychez

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Chubbychez

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cfmrfrpfmsf

no! that isn't a good analogy! it works for explaining why he reverts but not why he reverts to that specific form.

*Meh*

He reverted to hybrid mode because having Chopper blubber that he still wanted to rescue Robin just before passing out lets the readers know that his mental state has not been permanently altered by the experience much better than a reindeer with a tophat thrashing around in the water and bellowing.

hyper_megaman

@cfmrfrpfmsf:

no! that isn't a good analogy! it works for explaining why he reverts but not why he reverts to that specific form.

he was that form before he went monster?

another explaination would be that when he's in the sea the hybrid form lost the 'upgrades/expansion' of the monster form, and goes back to what it was before. this is what i'm thinking. because if u noticed the monster form is NOT leaning towards reindeer form, neither is it leaning towards human form. being more like an equal mix of both, it's not leaning towards either, so i guess it's counted as a stressed/overclocked version of the hybrid form with some modifications. so in essence when he stops being souped-up-hybrid he loses the stress/powerup and goes back to hybrid.

that's my theory anyway, because i have to point out that none of the two forms are claiming dominence in this monster form

gallowsx

:S wot is not logical….

chopper was in hybrid form
chopper consumes 3 rumble balls which relies on his powers to work...
the effect of the water is to drain all the power of the devil fruit
chopper is dropped in the water
he returns to the form he was before he took the 3 rumble balls...

if u look at the chopzilla as another form then u're wrong.. its just an alteration of the hybrid form... it just screws up the way the zoan df powers are manifested... when dropped in water all the powers are drained, so he returns to the form he was before his powers were altered by the rumble ball..

hyper_megaman

@gallowsx:

:S wot is not logical….

chopper was in hybrid form

chopper consumes 3 rumble balls which relies on his powers to work...

the effect of the water is to drain all the power of the devil fruit

chopper is dropped in the water

he returns to the form he was before he took the 3 rumble balls...

if u look at the chopzilla as another form then u're wrong.. its just an alteration of the hybrid form... it just screws up the way the zoan df powers are manifested... when dropped in water all the powers are drained, so he returns to the form he was before his powers were altered by the rumble ball..

sort of like cramps, they're triggered by something, but when they happen the person panics and subconsciously keeps flexing the muscle because it's in pain, in other words the person keeps cramping himself even when the cramp/seizure trigger is long gone. all u need is for the person to suddenly lack the ability to flex/contract his muscle, and let it go back to normal, and the person will not cramp anymore.

u get my analogy here? the rumble ball just initiated the transformation, but it was chopper's control of the df that kept it going, even at the expense of his own energy/health. it was when the water forcefully cut off this control that his body finally stopped trying to push this state.

the sea doesn't affect ur powers in any way, just interrupts ur control over it. over any other muscle in ur body too, just for the record, the people seem to go numb and unable to move when they touch seawater.

Mr. Half

@Aldrich:

But it isn't logical. It makes no sense that being surrounded by water would cancel one of his transformations (the giant monster) but not another (the tanuki). And the fact it was the form he used before eating the third rumble ball doesn't change anything.

The point that I think Kuzan was making was that it's not about the transformation itself, it's about the demon.

The sea doesn't only interfere with fruit powers, it makes their owners really weak. My theory is that the sea weakened the demon [and Chopper] so much that they couldn't sustain the ChopperKong form, so Chopper reverted to the form that took the least amount of energy.

@Aldrich:

A better comparison would be with Enel, we saw that kairouseki prevented him from using his powers, which meant that he couldn't turn his body into electricity anymore and thus reverted back to his original, "human" form. So water should prevent Chopper from using his shape-shifting abilities and make him revert to his original reindeer form.

At least that's how I see it.

You make two assumptions here - one, that the reindeer form is the base form. All the Zoans before now have been people, who would've had reason to constantly stay in human mode, even if it took more work. Maybe the base for all Zoans is the half-way mode.

The second assumption you make is that the transformation requires constant activation. Maybe the powers only activate during the transformation itself (except with the Rumble modes, since those are aberrations from the natural modes). Since Demon mode took constant activation, he would have either reverted to the form he used previously or the base form.