Help with Kaku´s language (for Rush´s scanslations)

[Ivotas]

Hello everyone, the scanslation group Rush would appreciate your input on this matter. I don´t know if how many of you guys are familiar with it, but in the original version Kaku´s language is the one of an old man. A little example of it is as follows.

In normal japanese you would say: "Watashi wa 23 sai desu. (I'm 23 years old)"

However Kaku speaks like old people which would be like: Washi wa 23 ja! (I'm 23 years old)

I guess you can see why this is difficult to understand in the english language. You actually can´t convert it for 100%. However there´s at least the chance to use some terms and vocabulary that are typical or shall I say stereotype for old people in english. We´re mainly looking for a set of such vocabulary that could be used if fitting statements come. Or list or terms/statements is really really very short at the moment so we appreciate any input. What typical terms we have so far are:

"Little Rascal"
"Little Punk"
"Youngling"
"I´ve never…in my entire life"

Well that´s it actually. It really isn´t much. But hopefully it is enough to get the idea across. We gladly appreciate any input on this matter. And always keep in mind that stuff like "Let´s go feeding the ducks" may be something that old people do say, but it isn´t something that could be used for Kaku.

[Myoti]

Just wondering, but does Kaku always speak like this, or does he speak normally after he's revealed to be CP9? I never figured that out for sure…

If you could put up some of his specific (more important) lines, we could probably come up with ideas more easily. -_O

[igetownd]

"In my day…" or "In the old days..." are phrases old people say a lot.

"Young'ns today... preposterous!" I think old people use big words to show their wisdom, sometimes.
"Care to give an old fella a hand?" Kaku probably won't say this
"Sheesh! Kids these days!"

In general, old people slur their speech.

I'm not sure how much that helps, but I'm glad to give a hand to RUSH :happy:

[sgamer82]

The impression I tink I got was he usually speaks like an old man, spoke normally while he wore the skull mask, then reverted back upon his revelation as CP9.

Perhaps a good way to get across his old man speech would be for him to speak unusually properly.

[COWMAKAZE]

Well, for your example, I would use "I'm 23 years of age". However, stereotypical old people words include "Dagnabbit", "Whipper Snapper", and sometimes "punk". There are many more, of course, but I just can't think of many right now. I'll come up with a list during school tomorrow to see if I can help.

[sgamer82]

I dunno. I know Kaku's meant to sound old, but is he meant to sound crotchety old?

[daRk26]

"You are in way over your head."
"You don't know diddly squat." - I like this one! XD
"Zip your mouth shut!"
"Holy cow!"
"I ain't never…"
"Keep your shirt/pants on."
"Mark my words!"
"Okey dokey!"
"Son of a gun"
"Ya don't say!"
"Pipe down!"
"It's in the bag."
"Oh, for cryin' out loud!"

Jumpin' the gun
bite the bullet
Walk the plank
add insult to injury
fate worse than death
gone haywire
kick the bucket
beat around the bush
For the umpteenth time
one foot in the grave

[Captain Kuro]

I dunno. I know Kaku's meant to sound old, but is he meant to sound crotchety old?

I don't know anything about the Japanese language…but I was always under the impression that he was supposed to sound more..."proper" old (?), not "grumpy old man" old. Or am I wrong about this? I'd also like to know.

[Fierce]

However, I think his voice just sounds old, but that doesn't mean that he is speaking from the perspective of an old man. So, I don't think he uses phrases like "In my days…", etc. I personally believe that Kaku acts a way too childish (especially in the last chapters) to use phrases like that. Maybe that's the contradiction Oda wanted to achieve. His voice sounds old, but his behaviour is somehow childish. So, terms from an old wise man wouldn't figure, you know.

[Mr. All Sunday]

I'm pretty sure it's just a different style of speech; like Orochimaru in Naruto speaks like a woman. I can think of a couple…
-"get off my lawn ya gawsh darn teenager"
And words like whippersnapper and such. I think it would be better for him to speak in a super proper old fashioned way.

[Ms. Suave Debonair]

Reference to the strange time periods, one being 'the day', which older people seemed to live in and 'the day_s_' in which kids live in today

e.g.
'Kids these days'

'Not in my day'

'is that what you kids call it these days?'

'In my day'

And the fact they always seem to have problems with new things..

'the problem with…'

'not like it used to be'

'What was wrong with the old..'

'Oh my god... dey took mah jerb!'

[Shinwei]

@Myoti:

Just wondering, but does Kaku always speak like this, or does he speak normally after he's revealed to be CP9? I never figured that out for sure…

He ALWAYS speaks like an old man. It's like a whole different set of vocabulary and grammar for old people, and every line that comes out of his mouth just reeks of it.

E.G.:

English: I/Me
Japanese: Watashi
Old Guy Japanese: Washi

English: is (verb)
Japanese: Desu/Da
Old Guy Japanese: Ja

English: right?
Japanese: darou?
Old Guy Japanese: jarou?

English: doing
Japanese: yatteiru
Old Guy Japanese: yattoru

And so on.

[Paulie]

One word;

"Sport."

Learn it, use it. Old people will call kids by it, but it's not in any sort of bad connotation like "Whippersnapper" or "Young rascal" might be.

Seriously… "Sport."

[Shinwei]

@Paulie:

One word;

"Sport."

Learn it, use it. Old people will call kids by it, but it's not in any sort of bad connotation like "Whippersnapper" or "Young rascal" might be.

Seriously… "Sport."

OOOH… I like :laugh:

[Strange_One]

"Sonny", "Sport", "Whipper-snapper", "Young-un", "Kid", maybe stuff like that. Honestly, though, I don't really think "Youngling" would be one of them, sounds kinda weird.

A very steryotypical thing for an angry old person to say would be something like "Well, back in MY day we had ter walk eight miles to school… uphill, both ways! In the snow! No shoes, nothin'!" And sometihng new or fancy would be called "newfangled".

Sorry, that's all I got.

[KrnxAJa]

what about the line from MiB? When K keeps on calling J "slick"?

edit ::: For some really old speech, you should play Donkey Kong 1, 2, and 3 and listen to one of Cranky Kong's lectures.

[Ivotas]

Thanks for the responses guys. Your input is much appreciated. It´s also very interesting to hear the different takes all of you have to determine an old mans speech. This is a delicate matter so we have to be mindful of what would fit and what not. Keep em coming.

@Myoti:

Just wondering, but does Kaku always speak like this, or does he speak normally after he's revealed to be CP9? I never figured that out for sure…

That´s exactly the point why we are trying to adapt that somehow in the trans. It may not be a biggie but still it is something character specific that went under so far. Btw, Kaku does speak like that from the very beginning. Check chapter 325, Page 16. Luffy asks him about his age because he speaks like an old man.

@sgamer82:

I dunno. I know Kaku's meant to sound old, but is he meant to sound crotchety old?

@Captain:

I don't know anything about the Japanese language…but I was always under the impression that he was supposed to sound more..."proper" old (?), not "grumpy old man" old. Or am I wrong about this? I'd also like to know.

If I understand it correctly, that is the idea.

@Fierce:

However, I think his voice just sounds old, but that doesn't mean that he is speaking from the perspective of an old man. So, I don't think he uses phrases like "In my days…", etc. I personally believe that Kaku acts a way too childish (especially in the last chapters) to use phrases like that. Maybe that's the contradiction Oda wanted to achieve. His voice sounds old, but his behaviour is somehow childish. So, terms from an old wise man wouldn't figure, you know.

This is a very important thing you mention there Fierce, the perspective. Things like "In my young days" just wouldn´t work because he is still very young. Stuff like "kids" etc. however would work because it is no indication about his actual age but about a somewhat above youngling attitude.

Stuff like "I´ve never…in my entire life" would work too because it is typical for an old man but still doesn´t seem wrong to be said by a 23 year old guy.

Well as I said, thanks so far. Definitely helpful what has been said so far and I hope you guys can keep em coming. We´re on the right track here IMO. :happy:

[hyoutan96]

Hello. As a big fan of Kaku, who also got annoyed to find no distinction of his lines from other character's, I would like to contribute some thoughts.

First, it seems that the venerable-old-codger language that Kaku used, is also still used commonly by all ages as a kind of regional dialect in some areas in Japan. Hiroshima? Or other shipbuilding port. So its not like he tried to act old and wise, its just his background style. So maybe it would be more appropriate if you use any English/American sailor /shipwright or carpenter slang that might get some feeling of time-slip from contemporary world.

Second, in my reading comprehension, Kaku's quotes has the aura of politeness. So you can also try to make the translation as polite as ever. Or rather use some literature vocabulary like Shakespeare (???).

Third, Harry Potter in Japanese specifically translated Dumbledore's lines to Kaku's language. Dumbledore is actually old and wise, but I didn't recognize any difference in his original english lines than any other younger character. If there is any, so you can use his speech language for Kaku…

[stephen]

The problem with translating Kaku's dialect, and the reason why I don't really bother too much with it, is that in English the vast majority of all speech patterns that are recognizably "old" are, as sgamer pointed out, crotchety or grumpy. They carry too much extraneous cultural information that is at odds with Kaku's personality. If you were going to try to remain faithful to his character, I think you would have to take a very long-term view of this aspect. In other words, only use what is "safe" and in accordance with Kaku's character (which is likely to be a very small amount) at long intervals. It won't be apparent to many, but if it's kept up, some attentive readers may pick up on it. I just don't think it would be possible to recreate his speech in every line without turning him into a joke.

One of the big problems with translating Japanese dialects is that English is mostly divided into accents that are easy to differentiate by ear but not so much by (written) speech. If you were dubbing the One Piece anime, the best way to appromixate the effect would be to have Kaku speak normal English but with an old man's voice. Although I think it's most likely that he will be dubbed with a "prim and proper" British accent.

[Ivotas]

You´re absolutely right with all the problems you mention Stephen, that´s why we´re asking for help here. If it wouldn´t be a delicate matter I guess all the translations would have adapted Kaku´s language already.

That´s why it is important for us to have the fan feedback. We won´t change Kaku´s language at all costs if it makes it appear totally out of character and it is to everyone´s disliking. It´s clear that it can´t be adapted 100%, hell I think that even an adaption of 50% is utopic. But if we could find a solution in which at least a little piece of Kaku´s specific language characteristic gets over then it would already be a success I guess.

We don´t want to ruin the character, but we want to save at least a little piece of this characteristic. That´s why we need fan input. :happy:

[Elastic_Swindler]

@Ivotas:

I don´t know if how many of you guys are familiar with it, but in the original version Kaku´s language is the one of an old man.

Japanese manga is very weird and doesn't always connect with the tangible reality. Especially in dialects you can see so, so weird stuff, as I'm sure you've noticed… Anyways the point is, that I've always taken Kaku's dialect as a total pun, something that doesn't translate anyhow into English. Maybe after the manga is complete, some roughly similar type gimmick could be created for his translated lines.

@Mr.:

I'm pretty sure it's just a different style of speech; like Orochimaru in Naruto speaks like a woman.

There are some (archaic) forms where males can use -wa aswell. They are long since obsolete from normal Japanese though…

[tony-kun]

I say keep it the way it is, we dont have two different dialects in english and if you made him say stuff like "whippersnapper" or "sport" itd just get annoying to read, kakus only gonna be in a few more chapters(talking at least) you can make a note of it, but dont try too hard to make it sound like old people talk. youll ruin it that way.

[hyoutan96]

I still stand for literary distinction. I mean, there should be quite different vocabulary used between Shakespeare vs Palahniuk, or even Jane Austen vs Helen Fielding.

The translation problem seems to emerge when on the first meeting with Kaku, the strawhats actually pointed out and question the fact that he speaks like an old man… The thing normal common Japanese outside its own region would do if they hear that dialect.
It is the one episode really need to be explained. But other than that, it haven't been any big circumstances that involves his dialect.
In Japanese originals, its advantage is that we can still distinguish each one who is talking in the most chaotic riot (Which also shows that Kaku keeps silent in the Galleyla assassination to avoid recognition).

Actually, as far as I watched, the Japanese anime voice of Kaku doesn't heard like an old man's voice whatsoever.

On the contrary, how did you handle the other character's minor dialect?
Square Sister's "dawaina" ?
Bon Kure's "swan swan nassuing oh-come-my way" ?
Ener's "jaa nai ka" ?
etc ?

[ybmc]

http://www.fiftiesweb.com/fashion/slang.htm

Have Kaku make use of old or obsolete slang. If he uses it a few times a chapter, he'll sound old.

[lpzie]

Hey, that's a good idea! Kaku speaks like an old man, and a good way to transfer that over is to use archaic dialects.. haha… use a few "ye's" and "thou's" and i'll be laughing all over the place, haha..

[ybmc]

@lpzie:

Hey, that's a good idea! Kaku speaks like an old man, and a good way to transfer that over is to use archaic dialects.. haha… use a few "ye's" and "thou's" and i'll be laughing all over the place, haha..

I was thinking more like 40's-60's slang, but that works even better! Old or Middle English dialect would fit Kaku very well, although some people may think he may be imitating Shakespeare rather than speaking very old English

[Dubanka]

Err… well, 50's slang (used sparingly) is actually not so bad if you are very selective about its use. Please tell me medieval speech was a joke ;-)

But I would say the two aspects Americans relate to age are formality and intelligence.

For instance, avoid contractions: cannot sounds much older than can't. Greetings sounds older than hello which sounds older than hi which sounds older than yo. They'll use longer words: assistance sounds older than help. Older people tend to be less concise, more patient in their speech: 'It appears to me' sounds older than 'I think'. They will use more obscure words/phrases: expire instead of die, maybe. Use proper grammar whenever it does not sound too forced.

It may help if you think of his speech as 'mature' instead of 'old' (though I know he's been a bit bratty lately. I really liked him, too.)

[Ivotas]

Again lost of good comments you make. And hyoutan96, don´t worry I got you the first time. Sorry if you think I was ignoring you because I didn´t reply to your post directly. :wink

Still a delicate matter and we have consider the suggestions very well. However I think that you can´t go wrong with Dubanka´s suggestion for the beginning. Changing the terms like that would most definitely not ruin the characters spelling as it is now. But if it get´s the point across that he´s been talking like an older guy remains to be seen. But at least it won´t be too much of a risk to take I think. Have to see what the others say on this.

Again thanks a bunch guys. It´s really cool to have your input on that matter.

[Kakaliaha]

If it is a matter of region dialect you might wanna try making him sound like a farmer maybe. Throwing in a few "Y'all"s and ""Ain't"s

[rs8389]

@Mr.:

I'm pretty sure it's just a different style of speech; like Orochimaru in Naruto speaks like a woman.

I've never watched/read Naruto, so it's hard for me to say, but my guess is that by "speaks like a woman" you mean he ends his sentences with "-wa", yeah? It's hard to tell in written language, but that's most likely a different dialect… It's written the same way, but it's actually accented differently. So yeah, they're completely different, and he probably isn't talking like a girl. Although most people don't seem to know this, like in Chinese, there are many dialects in Japanese. Mostly they are fairly similar to "hyoujungo" (the standard), but some are so different that you can't even understand it. Anyhow, I'm sorta going off-topic here, so I'll just stop at that...

[MasterDee]

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[redfairy]

The fifties slang idea is interesting, but I think too many swells would get a bit annoying.

[MasterDee]

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[MasterDee]

If he's meant to sound old and wise, why not make him sound like a Yoda, or a Mr. Miyagi? These are two rather familiar characters of the old and wise type (familiar to most Americans anyway) that have very distinct ways of speaking. Making Kaku sound like one of these characters might help to get the point across.

Like take for instance Kaku's line from chapter 401 page 4 (Null's translation).

"I've been regretting that I didn't get to see your real skill in Galley-La Mansion. I wouldn't have imagined that Pirates would come all the way here…"

Could be rewritten as

"Regret I feel, at Galley-La Mansion your skills I saw not. Imagined I did not pirates coming to Eneas Lobby."

To make him sound like Yoda.

Or, as another example, this line:

"I can feel your spirit... like an ominous beast like spirit..."

to make him sound like Yoda could be rewritten as:

"Your spirit I feel... like an ominous beast like spirit it is..."

Well, anyways, you get the picture. I hope I didn't mangle Yoda's speech pattern too much :)

[Ivotas]

Hahaha, I must say I really love your suggestion MasterDee! I´m affraid we can´t use it though, but I really really love it.

The reason why we can´t use it is simple. If I got it right, then Kaku´s language is grammatically correct. He only speaks in the style of an old person but it´s not grammatically incorrect. Yoda and Mr. Miyagi however speak grammatically incorrect, both because basic respectively english isn´t their native language. If we would use a language like that for Kaku´s then we would give the character our own characterization which was never intended by the author himself. That wouldn´t be a good thing to do.

I mean if this language would really help to get the point across that he talks like an old person then I see no reason why we couldn´t use it, but I guess Kaku would only come across as a foreigner who doesn´t speak the language very well. I don´t think this is a good way to go. Which is a damn pitty because I find the quote "Regret I feel, at Galley-La Mansion your skills I saw not. Imagine I did not, pirates coming to Eneas Lobby would." to be a kickass statement. :happy: