Sanji vs Zoro - Rivals

[Mr_Wonx]

Sanji and Zoro have always been rivals, and it's always been asumed that they're somewhat even. As of late, however, Sanji has gotten the raw end of the deal by going undercover, getting electrocuted, etc.

Think about this, though - Zoro trains - a lot. Sanji cooks - a lot. My question is this - do you think that Sanji was close to his peak when the crew picked him up, and Zoro's been playing "cetch up", or that Sanji secretly trains in the kitchen and has the food already prepared in microwavable packets in a hidden freezer?

[igalsfy]

i think this has already been discusse da lot.

i think that at the baratie arc, sanji was stronger than zoro and he did not progress that much (of course he did, he fought tough opponents, but not as much as zoro)

[Voodzik]

An interesting point….I think they've been playing catch up, really. I could possibly say that the mantle of who's stronger swaps with every arc. I will say that I think right now they're about equal-they looked pretty even during the DBF.

[Ivotas]

Just a little friendly reminder that fighting also can make somebody stronger.

The point is how training gets defined. If somebody says that Sanji doesn´t practice by kicking against lifeless objects, then I would agree that he doesn´t train. But if Sanji beats up dozens and dozens of small fry around then this is actually the same as if he would kick against a punching bag. In fact it is even more an efficient practice because unlike the punching bag living targets try to avoid being hit.

By my book this definitely counts as a practicing on his fighting skills.

And another thing is that Zoro actually doesn´t train his fighting skills all the time. He strenghtens his body a lot but he doesn´t work on his swordman skills as much as he lifts around heavy stuff.

[Phlemingo]

@Ivotas:

In fact it is even more an efficient practice because unlike the punching bag living targets try to avoid being hit.

Don't know why, but that made me laugh. Alot.

Uhh anyway. I think they have quite equal strength in their own field, as they both inwardly respect each other's power and fighting technique, though it is hostile on the outside.

[Mr_Wonx]

As I was typing I thought about the fighting aspect. But if you were to go through and count the number of battles each has had since they left the restaurant, they'd be pretty even, maybe even a little tipped toward Zoro.

Their's two things I see - one is that they seem to train simular to a basketball player and a football player - one strives for endurance while the other for brute strength. The other is just my sudden realization / thought that Sanji seems almost too sneaky as of late. We didn't find out he was from South blue until the Jaya arc. Coupled with Recon / undercover stuff he pulled in Alabasta and Water 7 just makes him apear more secretive.

I'm not saying he's going to betray the crew, I'm just saying that he trained under one of the most powerfull Grand Line Pirates, and doesn't seem to strain himself in battle. Zoro just seems to do more advancing then Sanji.

[4ghost]

Well something else to consider is that While Zorro trains in strength to use his swords Sanji can also be said to be constantly training in Flexibility plus he's always using his legs.

[Polygon]

**Now there really is no basis for anyone saying who trains more in what. We've only seen zoro train in his childhood and that time when they just arrived at Drum. And we havn't seen Sanji and Luffy train at all.

And even then after he felt his legs were fine, he decided to stop with all this light training. And instead of getting more weights he jumped into a freezing pool. And the very fact that he is a swordsman tells us he trains a lot in his skill. since that is what a swordsman ability revolves around.

Sanji has more flexibility seeing as how he only uses his legs. So naturally he needs to be more flexible than zoro. The only person in the SH crew more flexible than him is Luffy, for obovious reasons. His fighting style revolves a lot around skill as well. But he uses brute strong in his fights more than zoro does. Just because of the simple fact that zoro uses a weapon, while sanji uses parts of his body. The only exeption to this would be luffy because of is rubberinesss. Though in every SH their skill surpasses their brute strengh.

IMO Zoro has a slight lead. By an extremley small margin.**

[Kaizoku Hunter]

They are for the most part equals. They're superhuman.

[Buccaneer]

In their respective fields, I suppose they're pretty close. But in comparision, I don't believe Sanji would survive a fight with Zoro. Or would ever, if the last nearly 400 chapters have said anything.

[WarcoW]

My take on things, and i may be either completely biased or unbiased (depends on how you look at it).
Sanji and Zoro are without adoubt my favorite characters in OP (followed very closely by Luffy and the rest ofthe crew).
And I have always thought that the mangaka always depicts them as nothing less than equals.

Back in the Arlong arc, Zoro was already weakened a lot before he fought Hachi, took a lot of damage and managed to own right there. The fight would have lasted a couple of seconds had it not been for Zoro's injury.
Sanji on the other hand kept saving Luffy as his priority and took some massive internal damage against Kuroobi underwater, but once out, it took him a couple of seconds again to destroy the merman.
Alabasta - Bon Clay and Mr 1 duked it out, but the result was unclear as to who would win. Not surprising that Zoro and Sanji got to fight them and win both growing in the fight themselves.
Zoro takes out hundreds at whiskey peak, Sanji takes out hundreds outside Rain dinners.
Sky Piea - cant really say much here, Zoro got more character development than Sanji in this one.
DBF - Zoro isnt allowed to use swords. But they way the cook and the swordsman work together again makes me think that the author doesnt want us to see them as anything less than equal.
Sanji also does the most damage in this fight.
W7 - this is where i believe sanji's lack of development in Sky Piea has been compensated for. We have around 10 chapters dedicated to him kicking ass on board the sea train some new moves, his loyalty to his nakama (especially the women) and we also find out that he can in fact fight with knives.
Charge into Enies Lobby - When they break into the courtyard with sodom running blind, and the pose they take there, with just the two of them standing side by side with the rest of FF and the SH crew behind.
And going by logic as to who fights whom -
I think it is very likely that Sanji and Zoro will get to fight Kaku and Jyabura.
With Kaku and Jyabura being almost close to each other in douriki.

Also one thing i need to mention about the way they fight - Sanji is more inclined towards attack power and agility while Zoro depends on Stamina and attack power (pardon my WoW reference here).
While Zoro will go ahead and try to block a strong attack, Sanji will most likely try to avoid it and counter.
Theyr individual fight styles are different, but theyr still more or less equal in the damage they deal.

[Buccaneer]

Well, about those:

Arlong Park - different mermen.
Alabasta - There were not hundreds outside of Rain Dinners. Daz would have most likey beaten Bon anyway, since he could not be hurt by those kind of attacks, as he showed Zoro.
DBF - They were somewhat equal, but remember that Zoro is not neeeaaarly as dangerous without his swords.

[WarcoW]

@Buccaneer:

Well, about those:

Arlong Park - different mermen.

Aaah but the three strongest in Arlong's crew. They really didnt have any heirarchy among them

Alabasta - There were not hundreds outside of Rain Dinners. Daz would have most likey beaten Bon anyway, since he could not be hurt by those kind of attacks, as he showed Zoro.

Maybe not hundreds, but a lot of them.
And Bon could hurt Daz if he really got into it. Daz was immune to being cut until zoro came along, but not immune to being hit real hard. Blunt force trauma ftw.

DBF - They were somewhat equal, but remember that Zoro is not neeeaaarly as dangerous without his swords.

Sanji still did most of the work in the DBF

[Kaizoku Hunter]

It's a rule of manga.

The main character is stronger than everyone else and #2 and #3 are reasonably close to each other, so they are for the most part equals.

For instane

DBZ Early Days

Goku

Gohan-Vegita

---

DBZ Final Days

Gohan

Goku-Vegita

---

Rurouni Kenshin

Hiko

Kenshin-Saito

---

One Piece

Luffy

Zoro-Sanji

The main cast is almost always split up like that in terms of abilities. One guy is the strongest and he's the main guy, while the others are equal and are constantly training, but can never seem to catch up. YuYu Hakusho is also a good example of this.

[Buccaneer]

It's not a written rule. By written rules, since Zoro is the closest in power to Luffy among the crew, he should be a bipolar bastard. There also wasn't such a thing in Jojo, and some other manga I could think of with a bit more time.

@WarcoW:

Aaah but the three strongest in Arlong's crew. They really didnt have any heirarchy among them

That doesn't mean they were equal, either. Just because one would be in Arlong's top 7 doesn't mean they would stand a chance against Nami, etc.

And Bon could hurt Daz if he really got into it. Daz was immune to being cut until zoro came along, but not immune to being hit real hard. Blunt force trauma ftw.

That wasn't stated, though. And by the time Bon could generate enough force, if it was possible, Daz would carve him up. Unless you think Bon's hits are far faster and harder than Zoro's sword strikes.

Sanji still did most of the work in the DBF

My point was that Zoro was limited. In a fight, he'd handle those three easier than Sanji would. Unless you think Sanji has something equal to the 108 Pound Cannon, and decided never to show it.

EDIT: I kind of agree, Octogon. I had them even at the beginning, then gave Zoro the edge, but Luffy's a lot stronger now…

[Polygon]

**^^ this is OP not another manga.

IMO Luffy and Zoro are even.**

[Green Hair]

@Octogon:

^^ this is OP not another manga.

IMO Luffy and Zoro are even.

And Whiskey Peak shows this pretty well.

[WarcoW]

@Buccaneer:

That doesn't mean they were equal, either. Just because one would be in Arlong's top 7 doesn't mean they would stand a chance against Nami, etc.

Umm what?
Hachi, Kurrobi and Chuu against Nami of all people? (The Nami of the Arlong arc even)

That wasn't stated, though. And by the time Bon could generate enough force, if it was possible, Daz would carve him up. Unless you think Bon's hits are far faster and harder than Zoro's sword strikes.

Yea i think he can. Sanji was out destroying Gigantic crocodiles in single hits and he had a decent fight with Bon Clay. So i infer that Bon Clay has a somewhat less if not equal attack power to Sanji. And he was fast enough to hit Mr 1 head on the first time they met, i dont really think he lacks in speed.

My point was that Zoro was limited. In a fight, he'd handle those three easier than Sanji would. Unless you think Sanji has something equal to the 108 Pound Cannon, and decided never to show it.

Aah but Zoro didnt have the pound cannon then did he?
Nothing to say he could have handled them easier either.
You see what you want to see i guess.

Anyway, i tend to stay away from who > who debates as much as possible. Everybody holds a bias to someone and they argue over that bias…pointless =/
Merely stated my opinion is all

[Polygon]

@Buccaneer:

EDIT: I kind of agree, Octogon. I had them even at the beginning, then gave Zoro the edge, but Luffy's a lot stronger now…

**True luffy has gear. but we all act as if it is just an insane power boost. It probaley has some major weakness along with it.

Frankly I think it always will be Zoro = Luffy.

@WarcoW:

Umm what?
Hachi, Kurrobi and Chuu against Nami of all people? (The Nami of the Arlong arc even) **As nami is now, she would decimate them.

And yes Zoro did have cannon then.****

[FireFistAce 0]

Sanji and Zoro are both devolping. It's hard to say who's better atm.

Moves they've learned since joining:

Zoro - Tatsumaki, Iitoryu Lion Song (AKA Breath of all things), Flaming Onigiri (Well, that wasn't really learned, but for the sake of argument, we'll count it)

Sanji - Anti-manner Kick Course.

Okay, so Zoro has learned more moves than Sanji. But here's a question: Can Zoro only do the Breath of all things with Waldo, or will any of his swords work? When he cuts Das Bones in Alubarna and the sea train in Water 7, I'm pretty sure he's only using Waldo. And he hasn't done 3000 Realms since Mihawk (That I can think of). Since learning (Or maybe he already knew it) Anti-manner kick course, there's only been two other instances of him using it (Davy Back fight and on the Sea train).

If Sanji would attach impact dials to the heels of his shoes, he would be able to kick through solid steel. Still, that's not something Sanji typically does…

[Polygon]

@Fire Fist:

If Sanji would attach impact dials to the heels of his shoes, he would be able to kick through solid steel. Still, that's not something Sanji typically does…

Sanji can break steel…...

[Kaizoku Hunter]

Since Luffy has Gear now he has surpassed Zoro. As a matter of fact, I think he surpassed Zoro in Arabasta…

[Polygon]

@Kaizoku:

Since Luffy has Gear now he has surpassed Zoro.

Show me where you have seen zoro in action in W7. He hasn't been in ANY serius fights since skypeia.

As a matter of fact, I think he surpassed Zoro in Arabasta…

Now this for a fact is wrong.

[wolfwood]

In my eyes their strenght level is roughly equal with Zoro in a slight lead,

thus i still consider them rivals and i also think that Luffy is way ahead of them both.

[Buccaneer]

Sanji cannot leave a print in steel, that was Zeff and now Chopper, currently.

@WarcoW:

Umm what?
Hachi, Kurrobi and Chuu against Nami of all people? (The Nami of the Arlong arc even)

The example referred to a nameless fighter. Just because they rank with Arlong does not mean they have a certain amount of strength or are directly above or below each other.

Yea i think he can. Sanji was out destroying Gigantic crocodiles in single hits and he had a decent fight with Bon Clay. So i infer that Bon Clay has a somewhat less if not equal attack power to Sanji. And he was fast enough to hit Mr 1 head on the first time they met, i dont really think he lacks in speed.

Last I checked, crocodiles were not made out of steel. Zoro could have sliced those even back then, and even so, you cannot compare a big animal directly to a super strong OP character.

Aah but Zoro didnt have the pound cannon then did he?
Nothing to say he could have handled them easier either.
You see what you want to see i guess.

Check my quote, it referred to "DBF." And back in the Arlong arc, he still had the Tatsumaki. Sanji never had the ability to use force as a weapon, else he would have something to rival Rankyaku now.

[NagaKarat]

To see who is stronger, well, we just have to wait until after the Ennis Lobby arc then, because by the way its going everybody is getting serious upgrades. Oda has just shown us inkling of what this powers are. Luffy's gear, Sogeking Kabuto, Nami's Perfect Climatact( wonder how she fare against eneru now the climatact is perfected, before she manage to hold him off but just barely but knows the climatact then would not be enough to deflect eneru's full power.) Zoro's distorted sword image onigiri thing. Chopper, Sanji and even Robin hasn't been shown any improvement of yet, but we now know sanji can uses knives. But their time (finger's cross) will come.

[Paulie]

The general concensus of the three OP fans in my apartment (me, Kaku, and our token female) is that Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are all around the same level.

[blacky]

Look at the enemies that are soon to come. There's Lucci who's by far the strongest and then Kaku and that other guy who are both weaker but both on a more or less equal level - With Kaku being a tiny bit stronger, for comedic purposes.

With the strawhats it's most likely the same.

[Kibagami]

In my mind there has never been any question to this: Luffy>Zoro>Sanji

Zoro and Luffy has always been the muscle of the Strawhats. Zoro isn't stupid either; I actually think he can be quite smart in a hitch and he always keeps a calm collected mind with great leadership skills. Sanji is without a doubt the James Bond of the Strawhats. He is easily the sneakiest and most elusive member with the exception of Robin, but she hasn't really played a covert role after joining the crew. Sanji will grow stronger in this arc NO DOUBT, but whatever strength difference he has between Zorro, he more than makes up for it with his smarts. They play completely different roles in this manga. The swordsman's job is to be cool, nuff said. The Cook's job is to hit on the girls, duh!

[Mr_Wonx]

Rejoices over his successfull thread

As they are portrayed now, it's deffinetly Luffy>Zoro>Sanji

What I'm concerned about is that we have only seen Sanji fight once were he didn't get zapped, sucker punched, distracted, etc, and that was against Bon Clay. And even then, the distraction ticket was being played.

To link to another thread, does Zoro have Luck and Sanji have no luck? Or is Sanji being Gimped by Oda?

[sabret00the]

Sanji's always been shown to be just as strong as Zoro but theirs more development gone into Zoro's strength for the reason that he wants to be the strongest Swordsman in the world. it's about as simple as they're equal even though i think that Sanji could surpass Zoro, he doesn't have the desire too, he's happy to be equal, it suits the story that way.

[Green Hair]

Actually, I never saw them as rivals, but rather that they just simply can't stand each other, since their personalities are pretty different.

[Ivotas]

All the Strawhats have different personalities. That alone can´t be it. Plus, I wouldn´t even say they can´t stand each other. They just argue a lot, which is yet another classic pirate story concept. Especially involving cooks.

[Ganner_Rhysode]

Hm. I would say. that they, though they argue alot, respect themselves and are able to work together, when it gets tough and they are needed. E.g. in # 200 when the BW-underlings want to stop the SHs from finding Crocodiles bomb.

[Mr_Wonx]

It was implied in little garden that Sanji and Zoro were rivals, same as the two giants (names escape me at the moment), that's why I've always considered them as such. The whole "Who can kill the biggest Dino" thing. I also kind of agree with Ivotas on the cooks arguing point.

[Green Hair]

@Mr_Wonx:

It was implied in little garden that Sanji and Zoro were rivals, same as the two giants (names escape me at the moment), that's why I've always considered them as such. The whole "Who can kill the biggest Dino" thing. I also kind of agree with Ivotas on the cooks arguing point.

Yeah, but since that was the only time they acted as rivals I never saw them as such.

[Mr_Wonx]

What about the "get a bigger bounty" remarks from Sanji? I can't point out an exact chapter right now, but that's what just popped in my mind as somthing that was said.

[KrnxAJa]

It really doesn't matter, because Sogeking will beat them both easily, hands down.

[Green Hair]

@Mr_Wonx:

What about the "get a bigger bounty" remarks from Sanji? I can't point out an exact chapter right now, but that's what just popped in my mind as somthing that was said.

But that was Sanji's remark even when Luffy got his first bounty.

[sabret00the]

@Green:

Actually, I never saw them as rivals, but rather that they just simply can't stand each other, since their personalities are pretty different.

i think you underestimate just how much zoro and sanji care for eachother, it's a hell of a lot.

[Mr_Wonx]

@sabret00the:

i think you underestimate just how much zoro and sanji care for eachother, it's a hell of a lot.

I agree with sabret00the on this one - they're still Nakama.

And I think the bigger bounty remark was directly said to Zoro.

[Yoska]

It's like in any other given romantic story: they're trying to hide their obvious attraction to each others in overacted hate. Sanji and Zoro, you fool nobody.

[dango]

has it been considered if sanji will ever resort to using his hands? and being that he is a chef that strives to perfect the skills of using his hands, his power would be considerably greater if he did (ie the ramen fight)? possibly when the situation becomes critical for him to.

[sabret00the]

@dango:

has it been considered if sanji will ever resort to using his hands? and being that he is a chef that strives to perfect the skills of using his hands, his power would be considerably greater if he did (ie the ramen fight)? possibly when the situation becomes critical for him to.

he will only ever use knives to cook, any other time, he'll rely on his agility.

what is interesting is that we know how averse sanji is to using his hands, yet he seems to be ok with using pistols.

[Kokolores]

In my opinion Zoro is the stronger of the two. Of course this question won't be answered for certain unless they face off someday but there are several factors which seem to imply that Zoro is the stronger one.

• Zoro's goal requires ultimate strength after all he sets out to become the greatest swordsman in the world while Sanji wants to find the All Blue
• Zoro has the stronger or atleast more famous opponents and unlike Sanji he hungers to prove and improve his strength continuously
• Zoro isn't just Sanji's rival he is Luffy's rival too: their fight on whiskey peak, the way people react to his strength like with the running gag of the frankies "Why isn't he the captain?" or Vivi's first reaction
• Zoro gets the second most fighting development right behind Luffy, just the way his fights are shown and how he overcomes his foes is

I'm not saying there is a big difference but I think there is one. Most likely it won't be apparent unless they fight to the death. In those last moments which decide over life and death I think Zoro is superior.

[notme]

@Kokolores:

• Zoro's goal requires ultimate strength after all he sets out to become the greatest swordsman in the world while Sanji wants to find the All Blue

Luffy's goal is to find One Piece though. Does that mean that Zoro will be stronger than him?

• Zoro has the stronger or atleast more famous opponents and unlike Sanji he hungers to prove and improve his strength continuously

Again, Luffy doesn't have any single person he wants to be stronger than either. In a way I think this might be to Luffy's benefit as well; he has not limited himself by setting such a goal.

• Zoro isn't just Sanji's rival he is Luffy's rival too: their fight on whiskey peak, the way people react to his strength like with the running gag of the frankies "Why isn't he the captain?" or Vivi's first reaction

I don't think Luffy and Zoro are rivals. Their fight doesn't make them rivals any more than Usopp and Luffy's does. Also, the reason most people who see Zoro think that he should be captain is because they haven't seen Luffy fight, and can't imagine how stong Luffy is because he acts so stupid most of the time.

• Zoro gets the second most fighting development right behind Luffy, just the way his fights are shown and how he overcomes his foes is

Well, I don't know the exact page count for the fights throughout the manga or anything, but Sanji has had a heck of a lot more focus lately than Zoro has.

[Deblas]

@notme:

Luffy's goal is to find One Piece though. Does that mean that Zoro will be stronger than him?

Doubt it. As far as I'm concerned, Pirate King>world's best swordsman.

Again, Luffy doesn't have any single person he wants to be stronger than either. In a way I think this might be to Luffy's benefit as well; he has not limited himself by setting such a goal.

True, he doesn't have a particular rival. But Luffy has set out to be the Pirate King. Meaning he has set out to be the best and he knows he needs to be stronger and better than everybody else to achieve it.

[Deicide]

Remember what Mihawk said to Luffy when he asked Luffy's goals? Luffy answered "to become the pirate king" and Mihawk said: "That's a hard goal, even harder than to beat me"

I think this settles it. Luffy has the need to be the strongest.

[Polygon]

@Deicide:

Remember what Mihawk said to Luffy when he asked Luffy's goals? Luffy answered "to become the pirate king" and Mihawk said: "That's a hard goal, even harder than to beat me"

I think this settles it. Luffy has the need to be the strongest.

**No it doesn't. First of all he must surpass whitebeard. Second to be pirate king he must have to get a A class crew. Then he has to use that crew to somehow get on the last island. Then he actually has to find one piece. Then come back alive.

I see no reason why zoro can't surpass Mihawk to the level that he is even with luffy. Since I doubt whitebeard and mihawk are that far apart.**

[theinvisibleworm]

I always assumed that Mihawk was talking about the difficulty of achieving his goal being harder than the difficulty of defeating him in a fight, not that he was implying Luffy would have to be stronger than Zoro.

Fact is, Luffy's goal is more than just being the strongest fighter in the world. Whitebeard already is the strongest fighter in the world, yet he's not the pirate king. I just assumed that this was Mihawk's point, there's a lot more to being pirate king than being able to beat everyone in a fight, and it seems that you can even be pirate king without being able to kill everyone.

Roger was unable to defeat whitebeard in a fight, yet his status as pirate king was undisputed so far as we know.

I really hope Luffy and Zoro remain on equal grounds throughout the series, while one might temporarily be stronger than the other (like with luffy's gear 2, he may have temporarily surpassed zoro), I hope that they keep balancing out, like rivals. Luffy certainly doesn't need to be stronger than Zoro to be pirate king, as Zoro would never stand in the way of Luffy's dream, in fact he'd probably die just so that Luffy could achieve it (and Luffy would die for Zoro's dream as well, obviously).