Why Saul?

[sgamer82]

The spelling of "Saul" for Sauro's name has gotten pretty popular lately. Truthfully, I can't see why. "Saul" as a translation for "Sauro", in and of itself, is a bit of a stretch. If the name were "Sauru" sure, but "Sauro" by itself isn't likely to mean anything but "Sauro."

There've been mentions of a similarity to a bilibical character named Saul. What exactly is the significance (I'm religion-impared, so I know nothing of BibleSaul)?

I'm just curious because I sincerely cannot see how Sauro turns into Saul.

Thanks in advance.

[KatanaJon1.1]

Well, if this means anything, ocean said that in the Japanese Bible, Saul is spelled Sauro.

[oceanizer]

This or this.

[sgamer82]

Ok. Thanks I see now. Makes more sense now knowing the Bible spelling.

[Voodzik]

@sgamer82:

There've been mentions of a similarity to a bilibical character named Saul. What exactly is the significance (I'm religion-impared, so I know nothing of BibleSaul)?

To make it very short, Saul was walking along the damascus road being sinful and wrong, and then boof! God made him good and changed his name to Paul, which is how you've probably heard of him.

The similarity is the sudden shift from his previous alliance to a more rightious one.

EDIT: It made that sound, too boof!

[awijelek]

or, Saul could also be the King in Old Testament, the 1st king of the Israelites :D

[Voodzik]

@awijelek:

or, Saul could also be the King in Old Testament, the 1st king of the Israelites :D

True, but the correlation is more direct with the Damascus Road story.

[sgamer82]

True. But P-Saul does sound more likely if it's an intentional reference.

Actually, I think I have heard of Saul. But it was a LOONG time ago. When I was in 5th grade I entered a thing my school did called (though I don't know if it was the official name) Religious Release, where kids could, if they chose to, once a week go out to a trailer otuside the school and get a lesson in religion. THough in my case I sincerely think part of my motivation was getting out of math.

[stephen]

In Japanese "Sauro" is used for Saul/Paul of Tarsus, the apostle. King Saul in the Old Testament is called "Sauru." After a lot of time spent poring through Wikipedia that would probably have been better spent elsewhere, I think it is reasonably safe to assume that the transliteration "Sauro" is probably an artifact from the Portuguese missionaries responsible for first bringing Christianity to Japan. In Portuguese Paul/Saul are spelled Paulo and Saulo. So (hopefully) that answers the mystery of why the Japanese call Saul "Sauro," however I remain unconvinced that the character is based on the historical figure.

Then again, if he comes back named "Pauro," well… :o

[Ivotas]

With Sodom and Gomorrah we already have two biblic names in the same arc. It would really surprise me if it´s not meant to be Saul. It would be too much of a coincidence then. As far as the anime is concerned however I have no doubts that they will pronounce it as Sauro.

I still go with Jaguar D. Saul.

[Myoti]

Then again, if he comes back named "Pauro," well… :o

That'd be… interesting. XD
Or even if he happened to have a son named that or something... hmm...

With Sodom and Gomorrah we already have two biblic names in the same arc. It would really surprise me if it´s not meant to be Saul. It would be too much of a coincidence then.

And the Devil's Fruit appears to be a Garden of Eden refrence.
I mean, you eat the fruit, you gain something, but you lose something that eventually leads to death.

[sgamer82]

@Ivotas:

I still go with Jaguar D. Saul.

Why "Jaguar"? Isn't the name spelled out as "Haguwaaru" ("Haguar" in Stephen's translations)? Is Haguar "Jaguar" in anothe rlanguage (I think I saw that mentioned, too)?

[Voodzik]

@sgamer82:

Why "Jaguar"? Isn't the name spelled out as "Haguwaaru" ("Haguar" in Stephen's translations)? Is Haguar "Jaguar" in anothe rlanguage (I think I saw that mentioned, too)?

I think people want to make it fit into the refference…Monkey D. Luffy, Jaguar D. Saul, and some people say Panther D. Ace.

[*Meh*]

If I remember correctly 'haguar' is the Spanish pronunciation for 'jaguar'. Or Maybe it was Portuguese? Eh, I forget. I still think its a reference to Saul Hernandez, lead singer for the band, 'Jaguares'. If we assume some tie between Saul and Luffy, then Luffy's obsession with having a musician in the crew becomes an inside joke.

[sgamer82]

If it's not a big joke, it sure is one heck of a coincidence.

I forgot the Spanish J was pronounced with a "ha/he" type sound. Though, ironically, I can't help but thinking using "Jaguar" for hta reason would actually screw up the pronunciation, since any native English speaker who sees that is going to think Jaguar with a "Jag."

[Ivotas]

As Meh pointed it out already, it would be the spanish pronounciation of the "j" which would then make it sound haguar.

And whats even more interesting is that the first term in Robin´s attacks like Tres Fleur, Seis Fleur, Ocho Fleur etc. always is a spanish number.

Again it would be too much of a coincidence to not be intended by Oda. Just like with Saul. So yep, IMO Jaguar D. Saul is still the best choice. :happy:

[Tizoc]

Jaguard D. Saul sounds right to me, though wouldn't hearing the name be pronounced in the anime affect exactly how the name should be pronounced?

[Voodzik]

@Freeman-12:

Jaguard D. Saul sounds right to me, though wouldn't hearing the name be pronounced in the anime affect exactly how the name should be pronounced?

Not necessarily, when you take into account how much a Japanese accent distorts english words (GITS 2ndGIG theme anyone?)

[Ivotas]

@Freeman-12:

Jaguard D. Saul sounds right to me, though wouldn't hearing the name be pronounced in the anime affect exactly how the name should be pronounced?

Not really. I would bet money on it that they will pronounce it Sauro. But that wouldn´t mean that it can´t be Saul.

Just think of situations like when Luffy get´s pronounced Roofy by most of the male voice actors. Or in the most recent episodes Nami actually always said "Lobin" while we all know she is Robin.

Other honorable mentions Usoppu for Usopp or Smoker´s White Out attack that get´s always pronounced with an "o" at the end of both words = Whito Outo.

So by my book the anime wouldn´t clear anything up. If they say Sauro it doesn´t mean it couldn´t be Saul and if the say Haguar then there´s no evidence whether it is a spanish proncounced Jaguar or a non-spanish pronoucned Haguar.

Gosh was that confusing. :wacko:

[Ubiq]

@Freeman-12:

Jaguard D. Saul sounds right to me, though wouldn't hearing the name be pronounced in the anime affect exactly how the name should be pronounced?

The Japanese pronunciation of a name doesn't always give clues as to the proper way to render a name in English; on some occasions, it can lead listeners down a completely wrong path. Look at Mihawk for a great example of that.

The best way to be certain is for it to actually appear in English in the manga itself or a guide like Red or Blue and questions can sometimes remain even after that. Django vs Jango for instance.

[Voodzik]

@Ubiq:

The Japanese pronunciation of a name doesn't always give clues as to the proper way to render a name in English; on some occasions, it can lead listeners down a completely wrong path. Look at Mihawk for a great example of that.

The best way to be certain is for it to actually appear in English in the manga itself or a guide like Red or Blue and questions can sometimes remain even after that. Django vs Jango for instance.

Frankly, I don't think the Jang-Django thing matters too much :P

[Ubiq]

@Voodzik:

Frankly, I don't think the Jang-Django thing matters too much :P

It does and it doesn't.

It does if you're making the argument that Viz mistranslated his name by using Django instead of Jango (which is a dubious charge really), but it doesn't for the majority of people. I use Django, but somebody else using Jango doesn't bother me, same for Sauro and Saul.

It's really something that can go either way depending on personal preference, like using Marines instead of Navy.

[Monkey Spirit]

Hi, everyone, first time I post. ^_^

Anyway, brace yourselves for a post from someone who has given it too much thought altogether:

On the subject of "Jaguar D. Saul", I'm afraid that, as a native Spanish speaker who also knows some Japanese, I have to contradict. The katakana reads "haguwa-ru", which would translate into something like Hagwar, or even Hagwal. But if you're trying to say it's the Spanish "jaguar", even though the "j" sounds like an "h", the lexical stress doesn't fit. I'm assuming most of you stress the first "a" of the word, that is, you pronounce "jaguar" in English with an "h" instead of a "j". But in Spanish it's the last "a" that's stressed. If I were to render the word "jaguar" in katakana I'd just write "hagua-ru", which stresses the last "a" enough, but Oda has inserted that extra "w" after the "gu", shifting stress to the first syllable and ruining the Spanish pronounciation. My first reaction to his name was "He can't possibly be called Hogwarts…" then I blinked and looked again xD

As to Nico Robin's attacks, I haven't seen the katakana yet (I only started reading One Piece scans last year), so I can't say. Nico certainly has that Latin feel to her, but, why would Oda use Spanish numbers next to the French "fleur"? That is, unless it's not supposed to be "fleur" but "flor"...

Anyway, thanks for listening to my ramblings. xD

[Ubiq]

@Monkey:

Hi, everyone, first time I post. ^_^

Welcome.

My first reaction to his name was "He can't possibly be called Hogwarts…" then I blinked and looked again xD

My first inclination when I saw how people were rendering it was that was that Oda had named him Hagrid just as a joke, but then I too thought that it might have been Hogwart. I've preferred Hagwall or a variant of it since then, simply because Jaguar didn't seem right to me.

People like to attribute an animal naming scheme to the D., but there's no evidence of such seeing as how the other D. are named Teach, Gol, and Portgas.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my ramblings. xD

Bah, it's hardly rambling when somebody does such a nice job clarifying an issue.

[Ivotas]

@Monkey:

Hi, everyone, first time I post. ^_^

Welcome.

On the subject of "Jaguar D. Saul", I'm afraid that, as a native Spanish speaker who also knows some Japanese, I have to contradict. The katakana reads "haguwa-ru", which would translate into something like Hagwar, or even Hagwal. But if you're trying to say it's the Spanish "jaguar", even though the "j" sounds like an "h", the lexical stress doesn't fit. I'm assuming most of you stress the first "a" of the word, that is, you pronounce "jaguar" in English with an "h" instead of a "j". But in Spanish it's the last "a" that's stressed. If I were to render the word "jaguar" in katakana I'd just write "hagua-ru", which stresses the last "a" enough, but Oda has inserted that extra "w" after the "gu", shifting stress to the first syllable and ruining the Spanish pronounciation. My first reaction to his name was "He can't possibly be called Hogwarts…" then I blinked and looked again xD

I get what you´re trying to say as a native speaker. But I think that´s not the point. The name has to be written in order to make japanese people pronounce it. Alvida´s "Gelände…" move popps into my mind. It is obviously a german word but it gets pronounced differently and probably written completely different. But that´s not the case. Japanese voice actors won´t pronounce it exactly like germans and they don´t have to. It´s clear enough to get the thing over in Japan.

And the same thing is probably the case for a spanish pronounced jaguar. It´s a phonetics thing. They probably won´t pronounce it 100% coherently but it has to be written like that to get the phonetic transfer in japanese.

As to Nico Robin's attacks, I haven't seen the katakana yet (I only started reading One Piece scans last year), so I can't say. Nico certainly has that Latin feel to her, but, why would Oda use Spanish numbers next to the French "fleur"? That is, unless it's not supposed to be "fleur" but "flor"…

Well, in the anime it definitely sounds more like fleur then flor.

[Cap'n Carter]

Oda explained Robin's move names in the SBS.

D: Odacchi! Hello! I enjoy One Piece very much! But!! I always wonder about that trick of
Robin's! "Cien Fleur" and "Seis Fleur" and all that! What language is that? Please
tell ussssssss (Please?!) P.N. Pe
O: Cien = 100, Seis = 6. The numbers are Spanish. Fleur is French for "flower." And stuff like
Clutch is all English. It's a big jumble, but as long as it sounds good I'm happy.

[Monkey Spirit]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up ^_^ (Do I get to use the 20 characters rule for the first time? xD)

[Tizoc]

@Ubiq:

The Japanese pronunciation of a name doesn't always give clues as to the proper way to render a name in English; on some occasions, it can lead listeners down a completely wrong path. Look at Mihawk for a great example of that.

The best way to be certain is for it to actually appear in English in the manga itself or a guide like Red or Blue and questions can sometimes remain even after that. Django vs Jango for instance.

Red & Blue guides?
Ya know reading ur post makes re-consider the writing of the characters in the Rumble Fish & SvG….(Fighting games)

[Ubiq]

@Freeman-12:

Red & Blue guides?

Those are two information guides to the series with material about background characters, locations, and other things.

They only cover to a certain point though as there hasn't been one released in quite a while now. Considering that a new Color Walk was finally released, it hopefully won't be that long until another guide comes along.

Ya know reading ur post makes re-consider the writing of the characters in the Rumble Fish & SvG….(Fighting games)

Didn't one of those games have Bon Kurei listed as Bon Clay in it?

So, yeah, you can't assume that the video games are correct.

[Daz]

I personally prefer Sauro, because regardless of all biblical references, "Saul" is just too close to the danish word for "drool" for my tastes >_>

[sgamer82]

When it comes to name usage and spelling, I tend to have a kind of priority system:
Oda's intent; i.e. how he writes the name in English (Luffy over Rufi, Arlong over Aaron, Bon Kurei over Bon Clay, etc.)
Official Translations (Bell-Mere over Berumeiru, Koby over Coby/Kobi, Lucky Rioux [sp?] over Lucky Lou)
Personal Preference (Generally go with Stephen's translations, with some exceptions [Again, Bon Kurei over Bon Clay])

[Kazu-kun]

@sgamer82:

When it comes to name usage and spelling, I tend to have a kind of priority system:
Oda's intent; i.e. how he writes the name in English (Luffy over Rufi, Arlong over Aaron, Bon Kurei over Bon Clay, etc.)
Official Translations (Bell-Mere over Berumeiru, Koby over Coby/Kobi, Lucky Rioux [sp?] over Lucky Lou)
Personal Preference (Generally go with Stephen's translations, with some exceptions [Again, Bon Kurei over Bon Clay])

I know that is the situation in most of the stuff Oda writes. That is why you see Tony Tony Chopper rather than Toni Toni Choopa or Ussop instead of usoopu. My question is, will Oda use Sauro or Saul. I'm pretty sure it's Saul though.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13486d.htm

Oda usually uses historical names. Like Edward Teach or Donquixote