Drawings of Mohammad/Freedom of speech: Debate

[Daz]

I'm sure most (or at least some) of you have heard of this by now, but for those who haven't, a quick recap:

Due to a "freedom of speech" debate between the danish politicians about 3 months ago, a major Danish newspaper decided to put it to the test (as well as the laws against blasphemy and offending people in general), and printed 11 satirical drawings of the prophet Mohammad of Islam, intended as a provocation. Islam is very strict about not portraiting him, and when the drawings made links from Mohammad to terrosism, it made things a helluva lot worse.
The result: The danish flag gets burned in the streets of Palestina, the middle east boycots danish products, embassies get threatened, and several countries demanded an apology.
And of course: Rumours that DK was soaring on Al-Qaedas death list appears.

As you might have guessed I'm danish and not very happy with these things, and a little mad at that paper.
But when does one cross the line? As has been heavily emphasized by the paper and the government they are sorry for the unexpected amount of trouble, but also that we have freedom of speech, and therefore the right to do or say things that they might find offensive- like the drawings.
Or do we?

Is it not blasphemy to make those drawings? Is it not extremely offensive? Or, since Denmark is a christian-by-default nation, where satirical drawings of Jesus wouldn't have meant jack, we should expect the same behavior from the muslim minority? That they're to blame for not taking the subject up to debate, instead of sending Death-threats to the drawers?

Well, I thought it'd make for an interesting discussion<_<

[Ubiq]

@The:

But when does one cross the line? As has been heavily emphasized by the paper and the government they are sorry for the unexpected amount of trouble, but also that we have freedom of speech, and therefore the right to do or say things that they might find offensive- like the drawings.

When does one cross the line? Well, I'm not sure about how Denmark interprets such laws, but the United States Supreme Court has more or less said that there are limits on free speech to the extent that speech designed to incite violence against others or other lawless actions is not protected free speech. You can't scream "FIRE" in a crowded theater and expect to get away with it, especially if somebody gets injured during the following riots.

As far as the religious issue goes, this was inarguably blasphemous by the standards of Islam and it's not surprising that they reacted the way that they have. This was a major and insulting violation of a central pillar of their theology.

And as an American, I have to say that it doesn't take much to piss Muslims off (surprisingly, they don't like being bombed by the US Air Force), especially if it's a deliberate attempt to do as much. Now, alienating your historical friends and allies, now that raises being obnoxious to an artform.

[Ms. Suave Debonair]

I know all to well what you mean with the lines in our Political Correct countries, I live in London, capital of England, incase you didn't know, and it is a very multi-cultured city.

All too often we have reports in the news and papers about people not being treated fairly or people spouting "racist" beliefs. It is now at the point of being ridiculous.
recently there was a Muslim cleric called Abu Hamza, he preached in a mosque in London, supporting the work of Osama Bin Laden and resistance in Iraq. He told all Muslims that it was their destiny to kill non-believers of the Muslim faith, just how it was Hitler's and the nazi's to kill Jews. Did they deport him?…. Did they bollocks! He got sent to court and his trial is still going on, I'm not too sure on it's current standings.

But then, you have the BNP, or British National Party. They are a political party that is trying to keep Britain, British. Several months ago, an undercover reporter filmed footage of the leader of the BNP, "inciting racial hatred", just what qualifies as racial hatred in this country these days remains to be seen. The public out-cry was enourmous, claiming the BNP should be disbanded and he be sacked from his position but all he said were comments that many people in this country talk about with each other all the time. These people who called for his dismissle were people who are too afarid to speak their minds, incase they themselves are accused of racism, due to the way in which people run this country.

In Britain, we are run by people who are so over obsessed by Political Correctness that they would rather put to shame a man, who speaks for the vast majority of the nation, then a man who is trying to rage a war against the "western world".

[taboo]

It's blaspehmy, but you can't really stop it from happening. I think that Muslims that overreacted need to learn that there ARE annoying asses out there with opinions and 'witty' ways of expressing them. I mean, if I burned a flag everytime someone made fun of Jesus…. then there would be alot of burning going on.

[meethz]

My God, they actually did that? I agree that burning Danish flags and the appearance of Death Lists are going way over the board, but Muslim extremists are extremely high-profile nowadays. The media are placing them in the middle of the spotlight as always and linking every bit of their furious actions to terrorism. Hell, this has nothing to do with it.

But as a Muslim I can safely say that drawing the Prophet IN ANY WAY is disrespectful. Even if, for example, a Muslim artist decided to paint a religious picture of him praying in Mecca. It's still not encouraged to do so. Muslims portray Mohammad through songs and arabic calligraphies, but never pictures. Now, I understand why the Muslim extremists Freaked Out when non-Muslims not only drew the Prophet but actually mocked and made fun of him. But as I said before - burning flags and death lists?? Dudes, CHILL.

[Bounty1Berry]

@The:

Is it not blasphemy to make those drawings? Is it not extremely offensive? Or, since Denmark is a christian-by-default nation, where satirical drawings of Jesus wouldn't have meant jack, we should expect the same behavior from the muslim minority? That they're to blame for not taking the subject up to debate, instead of sending Death-threats to the drawers?

Well, I thought it'd make for an interesting discussion<_<

Like all religious concerns, blasphemy is a personal thing, to be managed between the individual and his or her religious standards of choice. The same act can be blasphemous to one man, and hilarious to another.

It's a basic fact of any secular and multi-cultural society, you have to be able to have a thick skin. People will have different viewpoints and rules. If you don't like what they're saying, you have the right to ignore them as much as they have the right to say it. (of course, this is within reason– but I don't see the artist going out of his way to CRAM those drawings into the face of Muslims and interfere with their choice to ignore them).

What a lot of sensitive groups forget: making others bow to your standards of what's acceptable and what's not is no different than if someone insists you follow theirs. You don't want us drawing Muhammad, how about we insist, for example, that you give up the Muslim dietary laws? Think about it.

[[sTuPiFiEd]]

@Bounty1Berry:

You don't want us drawing Muhammad, how about we insist, for example, that you give up the Muslim dietary laws? Think about it.

the difference is, when u draw Muhammad, it will disturb Muslims, but Muslims dont disturb anybody with their dietary laws do they ?

[Bounty1Berry]

@'[sTuPiFiEd:

']the difference is, when u draw Muhammad, it will disturb Muslims, but Muslims dont disturb anybody with their dietary laws do they ?

Okay, it was the first thing that came to mind. You could argue that such selectiveness probably irritates the food companies which have to spend extra to ensure compliance with halal standards, but it's probably a poor example.

How about "you give up praying 5 times a day, so we have to pick up the slack while you go get spiritually comforted?" or "You start wearing regular outfits for women so you don't stand out and we can ogle you like other women :D". I apologize for a lack of a better example, but I admittedly don't know that much about the nuts and bolts of Islam.

[[sTuPiFiEd]]

well we dont need the food companies who usually dont use halal standards to use them, we have enough food companies who willingly supply halal foods

and about praying 5 times a day, 3 of them are not in office hours usually, from the other 2, 1 can be done during lunch break, and maybe the other 1 might use some work time, but becoz i know u "dont know much about the nuts and bolts of Islam" i might just tell u that one time praying might only take 10 minutes, and we can very much compensate for that time after our office hour

and the reason "so we can ogle u like other women" is just low

[oceanizer]

I have (or had?) Muslim coworker who washes his feet before praying. That made the bathroom wet everywhere, but hey, that's what they have to do, we respected it.

Every religion has weird activities, Buddhist - burning incense (I have allergy and will be sneezing), Christian - try to convert other people (well, some of them), Catholic - think of Maria same as God (disturbing from Christian's point of view? I don't know), list some other religions and I bet I can find at least one disturbing fact in each religion. Even though you may not think something disturbing according to your standard, keep in mind that for somebody else, that's very normal thing to do.

People have their own beliefs and people do what they believe. It's not like you'll change your believe with this short discussion. Even though "when does one cross the line" is an interesting topic, when religion is involved, I bet everyone will keep going back to square one. It is therefore not beneficial for anyone to have a discussion or debate on or around religion. At least not on Anime board.

You are welcomed to create the topic "when does one cross the line" but please don't involve any religion.

Topic closed; go talk about Manga o.o

[captain usopp]

hey, better than taking 10 min to go take a smoke break :)

anyways, my opinion of the whole picture thing. There are extreme views on both sides. People, who think that others shouldn't get so offended over stuff. (ex: the pic of mohamid) While others get offended over stuff, that really is trivial. (ex: parents thinking pokemon is evil)

Everyone has a right to their opinion, and each has a valid point. I think what should be considdered is the others feelings on the matter. If your doing something that will offend someone, stop, think about it, and don't do it. If your oversensitive, well get a life. :P

I have a friend who loves to push my buttons. He thinks I shouldn't be so sensitive. I tend to get offended a little easier than most. (though I try to keep an open mind) My tactic, is to just egnore my friend when he's being a jerk. Granted, what that newspaper did was not very nice, but if everyone jsut egnored the paper, they wouldn't be making any money, and that would soon put a stop to their shinanigans.

Bad people get power when we give it to them. Hitler, couldn't have killed all those people, just him on his own…but then, that's another topic.