The Nguyen Tuong Van Case

Phlemingo

http://www.smh.com.au/news/editorial/how-australia-failed-nguyen-tuong-van/2005/11/30/1133311102197.html

What are your views on hanging? I say he deserved it. He took the risk, he got caught, he should suffer the consequences. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. Apparently, these people don't think so.

http://domch.typepad.com/stophanging/2005/12/our_press_state.html

The reason why Singapore's drug trafficking is near a zero is this. Death is, of course, the ultimate punishment. Traffickers can escape jail through bribes or whatever but definitely not death. The determent margin between a life sentence and a death sentence is very huge, so I'm all for hanging to punish those daring enough to go against a death penalty.

StrawHatLuffy

Hm, I am basically neutral on this issue though I feel annoyed when I read those reports slamming Singapore. It is, after all, my country so forgive me for having these feelings.

Comments like the following really pisses me off >_>

The Singapore Government is commiting the same thing that they are accusing Van Nguyen of - MURDER. I hate you Singapore. You are no better than the criminals languishing in your bloody gaols.

This is an outrageous act by the Singaporean government. I call on all people to boycott Singaporean goods, services and anything else. These barbarians need to be taught a lesson.

(At least we don't need to live our lives in fear of getting assasinated the next moment here)

And since he has already been hung, we should just move on and make this a lesson to all who intends to traffic drugs.

Hmmm in a wrong section too… Moved..

Phlemingo

Um… it's in the news, it is media...

StrawHatLuffy

Hmmm I would rather have it here since it's more of a general discussion. Well, if any other mods disagree please move it back then and remove the redirects.

wolfwood

honestly i think its fucked up to utilise death peneltys in general(and im happy that my country has long since stopped using it) so you can guess where i stand on this.

Phlemingo

@StrawHatLuffy:

Comments like the following really pisses me off >_>

Oh ya, the funny thing about that comment is that he isn't being accused of murder, but instead drug trafficking.

StrawHatLuffy

Hmm the murder thing is that the people are saying that by traficking drugs, he is indirectly murdering those drug addicts and hence the murder claim.

And I forgot you're from Singapore too ^^;;

What're your views?

Phlemingo

No prob

Um my views also cover the reasons I want to give Wolfwood.

I believe that this punishment is the reason why Singapore can be where it is today. We are a mere 39 years old yet our standard of living is still so much higher than 3rd world countries much older than us. This is because of our deterrence. Of course, we do not punish in cold blood.

http://www.aseannewsnetwork.com/2005/10/unmasked-hangman-who-will-send-aussie.html

The hangman is one who believes he will send the criminal to a better place. The successors he tried to train both could not bring themselves to pull the lever from guilt. I don't think these are sick people.

Singapore was a prime target for drug trafficking because of our location. If not for our harsh punishments, with our repeated warnings too, criminals would be much bolder in trafficking drugs. It would pollute our society, which is much more susceptible than places like, say, a non-peninsula, since we are on an important trade route and all that stuff.

As a result, I support this, although I do not find it attractive. I know we aren't a fucked up people. At least, most of us aren't.

loulou

As an Australian, I was really disgusted by the way people have responded to this case. I'm not saying that the death penalty is right, but I can understand why they didn't let Van Nguyen go, because think about how other death row prisoners and the families of past executed prisoners would respond. It would get really messy. That's part of the problem of having such a harsh penalty established in the first place.
Anyway, many other foreigners (probably Australians too) and locals alike have been imprisoned and executed over the years, yet there was no uproar about it or threats to boycott Singaporean based businesses before. And in a few months time, everyone is going to move on, and not care about the issue anymore. It's just the usual media-circus bullshit, like the Schapelle Corby case earler this year (she's still in prison, why have people lost interest now? Because it's no longer on the nightly news).
It also seemed like people were forgetting that he broke the law. It doesn't change anything if the mother comes on TV and makes him out like a victim, because he's not.
Also, the Bali 9 have committed the same crime, and there are rumours of entrapment by the Australian police. The general public opinion is that these guys deserved it. Granted what these guys have done was stupid, but they are seen in such a negative light.

BTW, Australia didn't "fail" anywhere, in fact John Howard and the Federal Govt. has given this a lot of attention, and they did all they could without inteferring in Singapore's politics.

EDIT: P.S. I love Singapore. I got to spend 12 hours there, and it was so easy to get to downtown from the airport and back. Plus great architecture, like that art centre that looks like that spiky fruit. I wanna go back there for a proper shopping trip some time.

StrawHatLuffy

Anyway I renamed the thread to something perhaps more appropriate.

Forte EXE

Oh yeah,the Esplanade.
Well,my views on this case are pretty much neutral.I agree with Singapore for wanting to pass the death sentence on him,but I don't see how in the world they can indirectly murder drug addicts.By starving them of their source?
And Howard is git for telling Dashan Singh(executioner) to shut up about the affair.

StrawHatLuffy

Erm… the murder drug addict part could be some form of death resulting from the intake of drugs?

Well I guess that's what that person meant anyway.

Phlemingo

@StrawHatLuffy:

Anyway I renamed the thread to something perhaps more appropriate.

Sorry bout that, I named the thread the exact title of the article.

thelousy

Actually Forte, PM Howard was rather correct in asking the ex-executioner to shut up. It will only fuel the flames in Aussie IMO.

I say this case has receive far too much attention. I know the death penalty is something that should not be done as it is inhumane and stuff. But law is law, everyone knows how our Singapore Government deals with people who break the law especially when it comes to drugs. If they risk it, that's their own fault. PM Howard message to his people after the hanging should be heeded. Do not even touch drugs.

The way the Australian media is slamming us is kind of revolting, they should look at their people. Half of their people agree with the hanging and the other half disagree. It should pick a more neutral approach instead of using threats. Thank god PM Howard did that neutral approach, god knows what will happen if more threats are used.

If I hit any wrong nerves, I apologize but I just cannot stand people trying to use threats such as boycotts and stuff to prevent a person. Instead of helping the person, they are harming a nation and millions of people.

Forte EXE

Yeah,but Darshan was only saying that the inexperienced executioners couldn't do the job properly.
Only he could do it quick and painless.

thelousy

Fast and quick or slow and painful makes no difference, the person still dies at the end.

Rashie

My views from this case is quite neutral, I never supported hanging for reason… T_T its sad, we can't do anything since its in the hands of our laws (higher authorities). Our peititions, pleads would fall on deaf ears. Its kinda cruel but I wished that I can do something about it but since the goverment wanted it that way.... o_o I can do nothing. Please don't hate us ;____;....

Phlemingo

@thelousy:

Fast and quick or slow and painful makes no difference, the person still dies at the end.

You're telling me you won't mind if someone chops you up and leaves you to bleed to death or someone gives you a lethal injection, as long as you're dead in the end.

Then again, everyone dies in the end. Thus by your reasoning it doesn't matter whether we endure torture all our lives or we lead sheltered, comfortable lives?

thelousy

If you die due to people chopping you to death, it might be retribution for the evil you have done in your life. Although cruel, fate must be accepted when it is given.

Whether we endure torture or live comfortably, I'm very sure each and everyone one of us will have problems to face. How we deal with it is up to us, well for our case here, he chose to do the stuff that he know was wrong. And he got caught.

Buccaneer

Killing is killing to me. Slow and painful may make you seem like a bastard, but you're not exactly a saint if you give someone a lethal injection.

Now, I am honestly AGAINST the death penalty. I don't think anyone is entitled another person's life.

HOWEVER, with the rules already in place, I don't think there was a choice. Like lou said, if he was some kind of exception, whether he was the only one excused or the only one executed, it would have shown a sort of weakness. So yeah, I hate the death penalty, but I don't blame Singapore. It's not their fault that people break their laws. Stiff laws give even MORE reason not to break them, which I'm sure they figured. And I've always felt that it was foolish not to accept consequences, especially when you play a "life or death" game.

Phlemingo

@Buccaneer:

Killing is killing to me. Slow and painful may make you seem like a bastard, but you're not exactly a saint if you give someone a lethal injection.

Nobody is a saint. Isn't it true that to cause less pain and suffering is more humane, though?

Overtaker

I have stayed in Singapore, USA, Australia, Indonesia

My opinion is a bit unique, I agreed on Death Penalty, for me sometimes somehow there are people that better off killed, people like osama bin laden, azahari, etc those people that live with the purpose to kill others

But there are people that I think should be given 2nd chance in their lives, people like Nguyen, the rioters in France..
I remembered reading newspaper about a mother who stole a small can of milk because she did not have any money to feed her baby and no one wants to employ her and the government isn't helping either. They brought her to jail, now I wonder what will happen with her baby as she doesnt have husband or other child to take care of the baby.

Human creates law so that humanity can live in harmony, but I wonder since when human's own creation begin to rule over its creator

igalsfy

no matter the reason, the death penalty is the most fucked up thing on earth. do people who use it think they're god?

Phlemingo

@igalsfy:

no matter the reason, the death penalty is the most fucked up thing on earth. do people who use it think they're god?

You must see it from the prosecutors' viewpoints. It is in low spirits that they carry out their duty.

Do you think those who implemented the rule want to set it in action? They put it as the greatest deterrence, because for a country like Singapore, it is extremely dangerous since anything would spread phenomenally quickly. Those who choose to break the law have to face the consequences; if the rule is not followed, how will it be enforced later on? The faith in it will dwindle, and more might take the risk, and not all might be caught.

Did you know that a study has shown that confiscation of assets and death are the biggest put-offs for illegal dealers? If they go to jail, it's fine because they can buy their way out or whatever, and more importantly their families will have money to live on. I see this as unfortunate but these people are far more a threat to human lives than that particular law, and if the sentiment is not stamped out, it undoubtedly will propogate itself. When I say stamped out, I do not mean by death, rather, by education, and if stubbornness persists… it's the last choice, no one likes it.

Overtaker

besides, why the hell he try to smuggle from airport, smuggle from sea, it's easier
it takes around 2-3 hours using boat from Singapore to Batam
and around 12 hours from East Timor to Australia

thelousy

As all reports said, He was doing it for the first time. They don't know nuts.

Phlemingo

Ignorance of the law is not a defence.

wolfwood

maybe not but i think that law is far too harsh and i sincerly hope that the goverment of singapore comes to their senses and in the future stop utilising death penelty all togheter,
or at the very least try to show some leniency and use some more resonable methods like imprisonment and rehabilitation for people who as nguyen who was a first time offender and in all honesty should deserve a second chance and not just indiscriminently kill anybody who breaks the law.

and if they can so easily buy themselves outta jail why not crack down on the corruption and try to stop that or atleast make it much so harder for them to do that.