Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict

Daz

@Dahaka The point still stands that the WG, which has otherwise demonstrated willingness to go to extreme lengths to suppress any and all Void Century knowledge, have demonstrated zero willingness to apprehend at least two highly public ex-Roger crewmates. It’s literally possible to just go and ask them about their adventure, Usopp tried so himself.
So, with them very much not being “vanished”, Alfieres point about their WG impunity is not unfounded- To say that its irrelevant to pursue them for the WG-as-established because “they retired” is nonsense; it’s like saying that the same WG that will blow up civilians on the off chance they might know something, and which hounded Robin since she was an 8 year old, would’ve been content to leave Robin be if she had started a bakery and pinky swore she wouldn’t read any poneglyphs.

The WG is alternately as doggedly thorough and completely lax as it needs to be for the story to work, and this is just another facet of that, is the point being made
Also, please lay off the needlessly personal “My counterargument is also that your reading comprehension SUX and you’re lacking in intelligence” shtick, yeah?

sgamer82

My belief is that Roger starting the Great Pirate Era was his response to discovering the truth. I don't know about the rest of the Roger pirates, other than Oden who had his own crises to deal with, but I could see them thinking this was their captain's plan and they have faith in it. Or they just legit didn't care. That's always an option.

Then again, there's definitely something more to all this that Vegapunk doesn't know.

Just look at Crocus who, as lighthouse keeper at Reverse Mountain, was well positioned to guide incoming sailors. However he gives the Straw Hats incorrect/incomplete information about Laugh Tale that, if followed, would take them to Lodestar instead.

On the subject of not arresting other Roger pirates, a thought occurs: it probably wasn't that hard for most of them to go into obscurity. It largely depends on how well known the less infamous members were. The Government would definitely be interested in any single member of Roger's crew they could find, but how easily are they going to figure out who random Roger Pirate A was? They likely didn't know Crocus hooked up with them, since he returned to his lighthouse job after, didn't figure out Buggy was in Roger's crew until after they'd arrested him for unrelated reasons, and even assuming they knew Shanks's connection to Roger, he'd gained enough power to not be taken easily. Meanwhile, Oden was unreachable in Wano and Rayleigh dropped off the grid entirely by all indications. Don't know why they haven't persued him in the time they've known he's on Sabaody, but that's a whole different question.

Honestly, I'm starting to think the World Government went after Tom precisely because they couldn't get anybody else but still needed an example made.

Dahaka

@Daz

That's not the point he was making at all, you're just taking what he said and incorporating it into your own broader argument.

Pirates are not scholars, common folk would never believe them even if they said something about true history, especially with no solid proof (I don't think bunch of blocks with scribbles no one can read would work), so their knowledge doesn't amount to anything more than make-believe stories they came up with because of anger towards WG after they executed their captain.

Pursuing Rayleigh would probably take more effort that it is worth. We can kinda deduce he was keeping a low profile and his whereabouts were only made known to marines not so long ago. It's been quite some time since Roger's crew disbanded, so it's not hard to imagine the heat died down enough for them to not care about some old man who makes zero trouble.

Robin was a part of Ohara, there's much more weight to her words than any pirate. WG annihilied a whole nation, that's common knowledge, they couldn't allow Robin or anyone to turn the narrative or even plant a seed of doubt, so they made her into a demon. This is not only about void century. It's about genocide (which may I remind you they did not want to commit) Stakes were too high. How is this even comparable? This to words of a pirate with zero proof? Whole nation of world-renowned scholars finding the truth vs one crew of criminals? It is not by any margin.

And I'm not going to go into what "the truth" is, because that may recontextualize everything depending on what shade of gray it is.

Also Crocus lives inside Laboon, that's basicially definition of hiding and a pretty good reason for WG not knowing he's there.

electricmastro

Anyways, I think we might be learning more about Lunarians soon. It could be possible that Joy Boy intended future generations of Lunarians to get Uranus, but then the Government killed most of them to get it.

Could speak a bit towards how King was interested in Joy Boy too, in addition to King and Uranus both using flames.

Alfiere

@Dahaka said in Chapter 1116: Inner conflict:

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1116: Inner conflict:

"The Roger pirates vanished" except the second in command runs a quite public and demanded business just a few miles away from the WG capital, revealed his whereabouts to an admiral 2 years ago, didn't slightly bother to change hideout or anything else about his daily life and just goes on with his carefree routine, and the ship doctor is literally the first person anyone entering thr grand line through the main entrance meets, just chilling there at the one landmark existing in the area, just to be sure you can't possibly miss him.

Considering the trouble the WG went through to kill the hypothetical innocent son of the Pirate King, it surely makes you wonder if there's something more to this inexplicable impunity other than the usual plot-convenient comical incompetence.

The only comical thing about this is your desperate attemp at criticism.

Vegapunk meant the moment Roger Pirates had discovered the truth. Instead of tellin everyone about it act on it, they disbanded and removed themselves from the frontlines of pirate world.

I mean is this really that hard to unsderstand? No wonder people have issues with Oda's writing on weekly basis when they can't understand implications of basic sentences.

While I don't think it's necessary to be this confrontational while discussing trivial minutiae of a japanese comic book, I realize I'm at fault here for not clarifying I wasn't quoting Vegapunk but rather referring to some discussion that was going on in the spoiler thread that before it was closed. I realized that after I posted but left the message as it was because I thought the point still stood. The point being: why Ohara had to be erased, Robin relentlessly hunted down for 20 years and Vegapunk assassinated for investigating the forbidden history, while 2 of the 20 or so people who actually got it all figured out are left to live and extremely carefree life despite being extremely easy to find without even having to look for them? It's not even criticism, i'm giving the story the benefit of the doubt here. Shanks being the rat that he is may actually have something to do with it.

That said, the World Government being comically incompetent when it helps the story it's hardly debatable.

Riddler

I'm not so sure, at least in Rayleigh's case, that he was that extremely easy to find. We have no idea when exactly he started to live on Sabaody, only that he was living there under an assumed name (remember, he was using the pseudonym "Ray") when the Strawhats encountered him, around twenty years after the Roger pirates disbanded. He decided to reveal his true identity to the Strawhats but it's not like that was an open secret everybody on the island knew about.

The One Piece world is extremely well-suited for people to disappear - hundreds and hundreds of islands, hundreds of thousands of ships sailing all across the wide open ocean. You act like the WG never tried to find the Roger pirates after they found the One Piece, but that's just an assumption on your part. I don't find it unreasonable at all that it would be really difficult to find some 20-30 odd people after they all went their separate ways, most of them probably laying low.

Of course, things should have been different after Kizaru met Rayleigh on Sabaody - we should assume he told the higher ups about his whereabouts. It would indeed be weird if they couldn't find him on Sabaody in the last few years - but remember that he spend at least a year (I think) together with Luffy near Amazon Lily during this time period. Even if the WG sent troops to capture him after Kizaru's report, he was clearly long gone from Sabaody by then. Sure, he has returned now, but are the Marines supposed to wait there for him two years later still, with no real reason to suspect he might come back at some point? Plus, even though he is an old-timer, he is still an.absolute force to be reckoned with - you would probably have to send an admiral to capture him.

As for Crocus, we have no idea how notorious or well-known he really was as a member of Roger's crew. As was pointed out, he actually lives inside the giant whale half of the time. And I also want to add: government forces cross into the Grand Line via the Calm Belt, so they actually have much less opportunity to accidentally encounter him at River's Mountain.

ARTEMlS

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1116: Inner conflict:

That said, the World Government being comically incompetent when it helps the story it's hardly debatable.

Definitely. Since they failed to secure or at least destroy the Oharan books, the WG lost every credibility it ever had as antagonist.

Riddler

As for the comparison of Robin's and Rayleigh's cases: very different situations involving very different people. At the time of their disbandment, Rayleigh would have been in his absolute prime. So, an extremely powerful, but sociable pirate who traveled across the whole world twice. He knows exactly how the world works, probably has made countless friends in dozens of islands during his travels. Friends that would help him out while he was hiding from the WG. Rayleigh would know exactly where he could go to disappear from the WG's eyes and he would know exactly how to get there; he'd probably have some money in his pockets as well. And even he were to encounter some foes, they would most likely be criminals themselves and thus not exactly likely to report to the nearest Naval base.

In contrast, Robin: she is eight years old, has absolutely no friends, no possessions, no money, has never left Ohara before, and is sailing all by herself ona ruddy little rowboat. Even though she managed to escape from Ohara thanks to Aokiji's help, it would naturally be incredibly difficult for her to continue to escape the government's grasps from there on out, and much easier for the WG to track her movements. Since she is an innocent little girl, at this point, she would of course not to be inclined to seek help from criminals - which is exactly what her flashback depicted. She first tried to hide at random civilians's houses, who would have no qualms of calling the Marines for help - especially with the WG's propaganda machine against the "demons of Ohara" in full swing. The real surprise here is not that the WG didn't manage to find Rayleigh or Crocus in all those years, it's that little Robin was crafty enough to escape on her own for so long.

desa

I can believe that Ray disappeared, Crocus was unknown (he was with them 1 year out of 20) and shanks is protected by his strength. But when they made him a warlord they knew Buggy was on the ship that went there. So it has to be them just not wanting to take him out.

I think my issue comes down to the killing of baby Ace (and attempt to kill Tom). That portays them as such extreme paranoid when it comes to anything that can threaten or relate to Roger them that it makes me it hard for me to believe that they would just trust Buggy is too much of a buffoon (or too loyal) for him to be threat or need punishing and give him immunity instead of it being a trap to kill him just to eliminate any risk.

desa

Could be interesting if Roger made the government a deal that his crew would all stay quiet if the government left them all alone and on the other hand if any of them gets killed they would expose the full story. A mutually agreed destruction deal. With the members scattered and unable to be contained all at once the government thought it was worth it .
And surrendering himself to be killed was a sign of good faith.

Dahaka

@desa said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

I can believe that Ray disappeared, Crocus was unknown (he was with them 1 year out of 20) and shanks is protected by his strength. But when they made him a warlord they knew Buggy was on the ship that went there. So it has to be them just not wanting to take him out.

I think my issue comes down to the killing of baby Ace (and attempt to kill Tom). That portays them as such extreme paranoid when it comes to anything that can threaten or relate to Roger them that it makes me it hard for me to believe that they would just trust Buggy is too much of a buffoon (or too loyal) for him to be threat or need punishing and give him immunity instead of it being a trap to kill him just to eliminate any risk.

Or maybe they invited Buggy to be a warlord exactly because of that. To use his influence for their own benefit while keeping him close and on their leash. Why kill when you can use?

Besides as I have mentioned. Pirates and world-renowned scholars/scientist are worlds apart in terms of credibility, so it's logical for WG to take heavier action against the latter.

I think their paranoia when it comes to Ace comes from him being a D and a son of a piarte king. It just smells like trouble and potential joyboy (remember Kaido hoping to become joyboy? The second coming of him must have been something expected if he knew about it). Buggy being a non-D and and a mere shipboy is, once again, not comparable.

Tom wasn't just Roger's shipwright. He had Pluton's bluprints and WG knew about that.
And as we know, ancient weapons are a pretty big, if the the biggest deal in the void century plotline.
So again, not comparable to Buggy or even Rayleigh who has nothing but words.

I'm not arguing that WG is competent at all times, but the argument about them not going after Roger Pirates simply falls flat on all accounts for me.

Alfiere

Crocus had a bounty on his head, and if that remote marine station in east blue had enough intelligence capabilities to know of Koby's past as a cabin boy for the smallest fry pirate crew around, I trust the top dogs of the world police to know about him being in Roger's for however long. Also I may misremember but he doesn't consistently live inside Laboon, he was just in there that one time to give her painkillers, and it isn't necessary to do so anymore since she stopped headbutting the red line.
Warships sailing through the calm belt isn't an excuse at all, those are just the top class military ships, everyone else has to do the classics and once you are there there's only the lighthouse and the lighthouse keeper is someone anyone over the age of 30 has a fair chance to recognize as a Roger pirate.

Abou Ray, even assuming he managed to hide in plain sight, 2 years ago he hindered an admiral,making himself an accomplice to assaulting a celestial dragon, and shortly after raided Marine ford with other two most wanted criminals.
So either the WG definition of "inactive" is very lax, or there something more to it.

Or it wasn't thought out very well.

cavendishsama

Both Kizaru and Garp say that they've heard reports of seeing Rayleigh around and the moment the marines hear Rayleigh got "captured" they are trying to make a move. Rayleigh says he'd like them to revoke his bounty, so clearly they care about capturing him and he cares about them looking for him. But even if they know he's always on Sabaody (except for the 1 1/2 years where he was with Luffy) it's not like the archipelago is small, there are entire towns on just a single grove and there's 79 of them. Not to mention you probably need 2 Admirals to capture him and even then if hears in time he can just run.

With Crocus there's just no evidence anyone knows he's there. Not every marine ship has a seastone coated ship, sure, but are those ships ever entering the Grand Line? Is anyone from the Blues ever supposed to enter the Grand Line? Morgan could've been transported to HQ by some randos from his branch, but they sent Garp. Smoker entered, but he went against orders.

And I mean the Koby quote, technically they didn't know he was a cabin boy on Alvida's ship, Zoro just assumed they would find out cause of their intelligence, but I'm glad Oda didn't follow through on that. Would have been extremely limiting if he did, and it's early OP, people don't know what DFs are which doesn't make any sense, Nami tells us there are two Oceans when there are 5 etc.. a lot of stuff wasn't thought out back then.

Riddler

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

Crocus had a bounty on his head, and if that remote marine station in east blue had enough intelligence capabilities to know of Koby's past as a cabin boy for the smallest fry pirate crew around, I trust the top dogs of the world police to know about him being in Roger's for however long. Also I may misremember but he doesn't consistently live inside Laboon, he was just in there that one time to give her painkillers, and it isn't necessary to do so anymore since she stopped headbutting the red line.
Warships sailing through the calm belt isn't an excuse at all, those are just the top class military ships, everyone else has to do the classics and once you are there there's only the lighthouse and the lighthouse keeper is someone anyone over the age of 30 has a fair chance to recognize as a Roger pirate.

Abou Ray, even assuming he managed to hide in plain sight, 2 years ago he hindered an admiral,making himself an accomplice to assaulting a celestial dragon, and shortly after raided Marine ford with other two most wanted criminals.
So either the WG definition of "inactive" is very lax, or there something more to it.

Or it wasn't thought out very well.

Lots of little points I want to respond to!

Crocus having a bounty is complete news to me. Where is this information from? I couldn't find anything on the wiki.

The East Blue marines didn't know about Koby's past on Alvida, as far as I remember. One of the marine grunts mentions the possibility that Koby could be a pirate spy, but that is due to Koby clearly being friends with Luffy, who already declared himself to be a pirate in front of them. It would be insane if the marines actually could identify the freaking cabin boys of any random pirate crew. And even if some member of the marines later mentioned Koby's past, remember that Luffy actually told them about it! Back in chapter 7, I think, Luffy mentioned Koby being on Alvida's crew in order to piss him off. The leader of the Navy base chose to ignore it though because he was a cool dude. So any knowledge about Koby's past on their part would not be due to unbelievably amazing Navy intelligence but simply because they were randomly told.

Crocus may not live full-time inside of Laboon, but he did spend enough time in there to build himself a house and paint the inside of Laboon's stomach. And even if you want to argue that he doesn't have a reason to go in there anymore since Laboon stopped hitting his head against the wall, fine. He still has a very convenient and effective hiding place right next to him. The marines can't magically teleport right next to him. He would see their ships from a wide distance, so he could jump into Laboon and have him submerge underwater for a few days. Boom, he's gone. Even if the marines came to apprehend him, they would have to reach the conclusion that the reports were either wrong or that Crocus had left and went somewhere else at that point.

I think you also overestimate how many people actually cross into the Grand Line using River's Mountain on a regular basis. The Grand Line is known as a pirate graveyard - the average person - and probably the average pirate as well - fears it as a very scary place you wouldn't want to visit. Plus, it's dangerous as well to sail up River's mountain - so we can assume that it's mostly used by pirates and perhaps adventurers. How likely is it that a random pirate of one the blues would a) actually recognize someone that was infamous 20 years ago (assuming that Crocus really did have a bounty) b) report it to the government?

As for the people already living on the Grand Line, they don't have any reason to sail to its entrance, since you can't actually leave that way.

Again, where is the information that only the absolute top class marine vessels enter through the calm belt from? That's news to me. Seems kind of shitty to expect average marines to senselessly risk their lives going through River's mountain if there is a much safer way for them to enter.

As for the point about Rayleigh, as I said, he left the island for at least a year after the events of Sabaody arc. Are the WG supposed to just station an admiral on the island indefinitely? Not to mention that Rayleigh, unknown to the marines, has a contact on the island in Shakky who could call him as soon as the coast was clear to come back.

Kdom

@Gizmo said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

@realtenchu their consciousness could be in Punk Records. It’s a working theory that’s been brought up ever since it’s been shown in the recording that only the dead Vegapunks coincidentally are on camera at the moment.

Not sure the timeline would allow the prerecording to occur with the Vegapunks shown on camera given when Stella properly met Robin, hence why the theory’s shaky if the recording is truly just a recording. But would need to reread the arc to make sure.

If that theory was true, it would mean that Vegapunk lied when he said that he forecasted the water rise. To me, that does not really fit with the character

Alfiere

@Riddler I won't insist on Crocus' bounty since I have no way to check on that, but I distinctly remember that one marine when Koby enlisted (right after being provoked by Luffy to chase him out of town or whatever) saying something along the lines of "don't underestimate us, we know you were a pirate but we're turning a blind eye on that since you proved your worth with the Morgan situation and all". I remember it because being so early in the story it gave me some indication on how to perceive the marine as a reality in this world. Maybe it was a fan translation, it was quite a while ago.

Anyway, there's a lot of good counterpoint that can be made to prove that "it's not so easy as you make it sound", but that doesn't really shift from the main point: there's clearly a big rift between:

This 8 year old girl may possibly be able to read an ancient language, based on the fact she lived on the same island as some other people who could, which means that in the case she manages to go around the world visiting all the islands where these ancient stones are located (something that's been done only once in almost a thousand years) may actually discover something about this old story ---> relentlessly hunt her down l, no matter how carefully she hides, and attempt to kill her at the first chance

And

These guys actually went there, learned ALL the story and came back ---> jeez there are a lot of small inconveniences in tracking them down, let's hope they keep the secret...

So, maybe there's a "the moment something even slightly suspicious happens to one of us the beans are immediately spilled" kind of deal
Or maybe it's Shanks using whatever leverage he has on the Government
But I feel like what happened not only to Ace himself recently but to every possible child of Roger right after his death shouls have counted as an infringement on the WG part...

So right now I'd say I'd be glad if it's actually explained somehow, but I'm not really holding my breath for it.

Riddler

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

This 8 year old girl may possibly be able to read an ancient language, based on the fact she lived on the same island as some other people who could, which means that in the case she manages to go around the world visiting all the islands where these ancient stones are located (something that's been done only once in almost a thousand years) may actually discover something about this old story ---> relentlessly hunt her down l, no matter how carefully she hides, and attempt to kill her at the first chance
And
These guys actually went there, learned ALL the story and came back ---> jeez there are a lot of small inconveniences in tracking them down, let's hope they keep the secret...

I already remarked on the differences between Robin's situation (little girl without any money or friends in the world) vs. the situation for Rayleigh and the rest of their crew (powerful, well-connected pirates, probably have some money saved from all their treasures as well).

Is it really that hard to believe that it would be much easier for the WG to track Robin's steps at the time than those of Rayleigh and co.? Not to mention that it would actually be much easier to apprehend Robin than somebody like Rayleigh.

"Little Robin was seen somewhere? Send a group of 20 marines to capture her!"

"Dark King Rayleigh was seen somewhere?! Holy shit, sent an armada of twenty ships and at least one admiral!"

The sheer manpower required to capture someone as powerful as Rayleigh is much more than a "minor inconvenience". Especially if you want to track and follow him over a prolonged period of time.

And while the WG did try to hunt down Robin relentlessly, the bounty they gave her was 79 million. Impressive and scary for such a little kid, but how big do you think Rayleigh's bounty is? 2 billion? Doesn't that also reflect that the WG did see the Roger pirates as the bigger threat overall?

hideoushorrendous

Do people realize the Roger pirates consists of 29 members and not just Rayleigh & Crocus?

They're presented by Oda with their names and appearances in Volume 96 SBS

Only their captain + Oden are confirmed dead. meanwhile there is zero proof of WG chasing them down after their disbandment

The way they hunted infant Ace and young Robin makes you wonder how the bigger threat was never treated as such. it's a miss by Oda no matter how much you excuse him

give me one reason to justify the neglection of the Roger pirates? 25 members turned into ghosts for God knows why. while each is supposed to be a threat. how is that even slightly convenient for some folks is strange to me.

King Cannon

@hideoushorrendous said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

Do people realize the Roger pirates consists of 29 members and not just Rayleigh & Crocus?

They're presented by Oda with their names and appearances in Volume 96 SBS

Only their captain + Oden are confirmed dead. meanwhile there is zero proof of WG chasing them down after their disbandment

The way they hunted infant Ace and young Robin makes you wonder how the bigger threat was never treated as such. it's a miss by Oda no matter how much you excuse him

give me one reason to justify the neglection of the Roger pirates? 25 members turned into ghosts for God knows why. while each is supposed to be a threat. how is that even slightly convenient for some folks is strange to me.

You can dodge the law by simply moving to a remote location with little to no people to tattletale. There are thousands of islands in the world and the WG can't look at them all. And if it becomes inconvenient, you can just move. Rayleigh can literally swim away to the Calm Belt if he so wished.

People only knew of Ace because Roger was witnessed in the town Rouge lived in. It wasn't a remote place. Robin was always sold out by the people that employed her.

Another issue is manpower. You can afford killing babies and little girls with a small group of agents. Legendary pirates however require whole armies. Garp himself recused going after Rayleigh because the Marines would lose if they had to split themselves between WB and Rayleigh.

King Cannon

@realtenchu said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

@Gizmo I agree on Robin, it could have been her that told Vegapunk about the Roger’s otherwise is indeed nonsense for him to theorize the Roger’s knew. Remember nobody outside of the Roger’s knows what’s in Laugh Tell. Only the strawhats were told that all of the void Century secrets are there.

Not necessarily. Whitebeard also knows because Roger told him about the Will of D.

realtenchu

The idea of Rayleigh hiding and running around to avoid the WG seems laughable to me because it doesn’t Match at all what we’ve seen. They guy seems to have been living in sabaody for a long time. Shanks visited him there years before Luffy got there. The guy has a business there, isn’t he like the coating man?. He has a girlfriend, who was a renowned pirate too, who also lives there and has a business in which he hangs around all the time. Kuma went to look for him at his girl’s place, so his location must be widely known information.

The WG knows he’s there and probably knows it for a long time. The WG seems to have been widely inconsistent on who they pursue and the level of that pursue.

But there seems to be a pattern here on why they pursue who. From what we’ve seen, it’s pretty easy to explain their pursue on some and not others and the extremeness of that pursue.

They seem to want to Pursue and eliminate anybody linked to the void Century. That seems to be the highest level threat and top qualification for pursue and elimination. But BUT like everything there are convenient and Cheeky Rules to this thing.

Scenario 1

WG: so I hear you know some Void Century secrets or are of a certain race

Person A: yeah I kind of do or i am.

WG: Are you Strong?.

Person A: Yeah

WG: understandable, have a nice day.

Scenario 2

WG: so I hear you know some Void Century secrets or are of a certain race.

Person B: yeah I do or I I am.

WG: are you strong?

Person B: not really.

WG gets on the radio: Buster Call his ass.

WG: an 8 year old knows how to read void Century language?. CP0 her quickly.

Marine: isn’t it too extreme?.
WG official goes into the kitchen: here
Marine: a kitchen sink?.
WG: throw it at her

WG: the pirate king stayed at what place in his last days. Find every pregnant woman in that area and get rid of her.
Marine: But sir, this is just a presumption.
WG: take all the men available and take this.
Marine: what’s that, a humongous battle Ship?
It looks like a giant Kitchen sink.
WG: did I stutter?.

You are weak, you’re Doom, you are strong, hey how you doing. WG policy for pursuing and level of pursuing

cavendishsama

When the SHs get to Sabaody Shakky hadn't seen Rayleigh in 6 six months, so he's not all that settled down. She also tells us that he's not gonna be where the marines are and sticks to the lawless area (and Sabaody park lol). Whether it's well executed is another matter, but Oda clearly tell us that he is on the run.

He even tells the Straw Hats that he's gonna move the Sunny because he's wanted.

Seafarer33

@realtenchu Yeah. Basically, the world gov are a bunch of practical people who favor low risk-high reward targets because they don't want to spend their time rebuilding fleets and training new recruits. Coincidentally it affords them fat bonuses from the Celestial Dumbasses and lets the upper echelon enjoy their days at the marineford cafeteria. Everyone's happier this way.

...

Or, Oda didn't think this through as much as we would like to believe when he came up with the whole "let's hunt down children" business, but apparently not everyone is prepared to consider the notion.

In all seriousness I can buy the down-to-earth argument that the Marines simply don't have the resources to hunt down every last Roger pirate. But we barely even see them trying! That bit of information Cavendishsama just quoted is possibly the only clue we've ever had that Marines do care about the world's most wanted. It wouldn't hurt if they had at least managed to catch a couple of them over the years.

Lemony

I feel like this is kind of a argument that ends up boiling down to how much do you want to put Oda on the hook for that. Yeah, it isn't perfectly thought out. It's a 1100-chapter series being published for over 25 years, big deal. It happens. But at the same time, you can handwave it, as people have been doing, and it's not that much effort to do so. If you are already pissed off at the series for other reasons, it's just another thing piling up for you to complain. If you're not it's just something you can make up a good enough reason and it's fine. I doubt "why weren't the roger pirates hunted down" and the quality of the answer to this question is what's making or breaking the plot, honestly.

Kdom

The fact that Roger's pirates didn't reveal anything is the reason they were not hunted by the World government

sgamer82

Two thoughts occur I don't think I've seen mentioned:

What if the Government was worried that whoever they sent after the Roger Pirates would, themselves, learn the truth and become a security risk. The Elders don't seem to particularly care about loss of manpower but they also want to keep the truth of the world as under wraps as possible. Perhaps this, and the fact the Roger Pirates kept their traps shut, made them not passive in pursuing them. It would be no small thing to silence someone strongb enough to go after the Roger crew in the first place.
Roger made a deal when he turned himself to ensure the Government wouldn't go after his crew. This seems unlikely, given the Ace situation, but I could see Roger keeping hush hush on that given the World Government's whole "sins of the father" business while trying to secure his crew's safety. That or the deal was worded in such a way that the Government had no issue going after anyone not covered by it (Ace and Tom).

There's also the simplest answer that the endangered members of the crew went to places the Marines would not/could not go. Oden and his retainers would never have been in danger from the government in Wano, for example. The New World is a place the government has no real power in.

Zanze

@Lemony said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

I feel like this is kind of a argument that ends up boiling down to how much do you want to put Oda on the hook for that. Yeah, it isn't perfectly thought out. It's a 1100-chapter series being published for over 25 years, big deal. It happens. But at the same time, you can handwave it, as people have been doing, and it's not that much effort to do so. If you are already pissed off at the series for other reasons, it's just another thing piling up for you to complain. If you're not it's just something you can make up a good enough reason and it's fine. I doubt "why weren't the roger pirates hunted down" and the quality of the answer to this question is what's making or breaking the plot, honestly.

It's honestly this.
Even then, there might be a story reason involving the rat... I mean, Shanks.
Though it's weird that if Shanks is somehow protecting the Roger pirates, he let all the stuff that happened to Ace happen. But it's also true that the WG didn't really chase after Ace either (except for the whole newborn hunt thing...), they basically got him handed to them by Blackbeard.

But all in all, it is a story.
The newborn hunt thing served to justify Rouge's 20 months (!) pregnancy, making Ace's age compatible with Roger's lifespan. We know he wasn't originally planned to be Roger's son.
The infamous line a Marine uttered to Koby all the way back in chapter 6 was also mostly there to service Koby's character development too, forcing him to make a stand against Luffy.
And Robin's entire character is about having been on the run all her life and finally finding a family with the Straw Hats.

It's hard to make every little detail like these collime in the span of 30 years of story.
As for me personally, the one time I really rolled my eyes was the Elders going "in over 800 years we never associated the rubber fruit with the rubber god lol!"

hideoushorrendous

They wanted his son to die they sent a fucking admiral after him

but what about his crewmates? his partners in crime? his friends? nothing.

what happened to them ? no clue it's up to you to guess.

yeah and that is convenient for some sigh.

Riddler

We have no absolutely no idea how the WG reacted once Roger became Pirate King and his crew disbanded shortly later. For all we know, they did try their hardest to find and apprehend all of them and simply didn't manage to do so. This isn't a world where every country and island is globally connected and every person has a phone to quickly call the cops in their house once they see a known perp walk by on the street. We have seen plenty of islands that were either a) mostly disconnected from the rest of the world, b) run by criminals and outlaws or c) so huge that it would be really difficult to find somebody on it.

It's simply a baseless assumption that the WG didn't even try to find some of the most notorious criminals of that time period. Like, we could have a line in the very next chapter of one the Five Elders commenting that the damn Roger pirates just managed to evade them again and again, You guys act like we have a complete picture of everything the WG has done in the last two decades, when in reality, it's all been filtered through the perspective of our main characters. Of course we are more aware of what the WG did to capture Robin - we were shown her complete backstory!

That's why it just feels like complaining for complaining's sake to me - it's all just based on headcanon, not anything shown in the actual story.

zorosempai

This post is deleted!

RomanceDawn

Once Roger declared that he left his treasure at that place the entire world had a fire lit underneath it. You’ve got to imagine any force of authority in the world had their hands full once the Great Age of Piracy began. We don’t know who they went after, if they did, when they did, and if the government was successful at catching any of them. It’s a complete non-issue as far as I’m concerned.

desa

They know Buggy past affiliation and where he lives. So its not just a matter of "we cant find them".

To me it reflects them being less motivated to execute him than some others with less obvious links. Which I think is weird.

I'm hoping there's some explanation like either Roger or Shanks made a deal that guarantee silence for security but no it isnt really a make or break part of the story.

But since the chapter was referencing the roger pirates and how much knowledge they had and there wasnt some major reveal outside of that. I think it makes sense that the roger pirates became the center of discussion. Be it speculation on why they didnt share their knowledge or how much effort was put in catching them. It's not like there's much usually much reason to talk about them outside Rayleigh & Roger.

Captain M

On this break with for the manga, with so little else to talk about, I thought I'd introduce an idea that's been hanging over my mind for a long time: a rewritten script for the One Piece manga, compiled from the information in as many previous versions, both official and fanmade, as I can find, and filtered through my own authorial attempts to make character voice, tone and terminology consistent.

I want to make it clear up front that I'm not a translator and I'm not doing a translation. All I'm doing is compiling and revising what's been done by others.

The foreword in the volume 1 doc goes into more detail.

Find the text for the full first volume of the manga in PDF form here:

https://captainmentertainment.com/one-piece-rewrite-project-volume-1/

I would have liked to have copied the text in directly (I know PDF embedding is not going to be friendly to every device) but Wordpress strips all the spacing-related formatting from Word doc text unless I upgrade my plan and start playing around with plugins. I would consider that if it turns out there's demand for this project and people are connecting with my style of writing.

I hope you all enjoy, and I hope you don't think I'm totally full of myself to even attempt something like this.

hideoushorrendous

@desa

you want it to make sense and throwing an assumption that he made a deal with them for things to turn out the way it is

I appreciate your understanding of the issue.

the matter of fact is, it's an issue caused by making everything centered to the mc's which i find... the most annoying part of the series

the world of one piece is very interesting. it deserves better mc's and more variety. and I guarantee you such issues won't exist.

realtenchu

@hideoushorrendous said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

@desa

you want it to make sense and throwing an assumption that he made a deal with them for things to turn out the way it is

I appreciate your understanding of the issue.

the matter of fact is, it's an issue caused by making everything centered to the mc's which i find... the most annoying part of the series

the world of one piece is very interesting. it deserves better mc's and more variety. and I guarantee you such issues won't exist.

But what is the issue?. That they didn’t pursue the Roger’s?. We don’t know that.
But if they didn’t, they had a good reason and it was explained very well by a post on this page. (with fat bonuses on the line)

The WG are practical people and opportunists.
Can we?.
How much will it cost?
Is it worth the effort?.
Etc.

And all of that has been shown in the story. They were in business with Kaido. Then wanting to take over Wano if and when Kaido fell. Treedude not wanting to deal with Shanks.
Kizaru not keep fighting Rayleigh.
Everybody gotta be practical.

cavendishsama

@Captain-M That is certainly a behemoth of a project that you've taken upon yourself there.

As someone who rereads a lot a re-translation is definitely something I always hoped Viz/Stephen would do when OP was done, but maybe someone can do it using your script. Only read the first chapter, but it seems good so far, though there is one line that stuck out to me as pretty different than other versions I've seen. On page 36 when Higuma says "that little shit started it", in your script Shanks answer is: "Come on you who'd believe that from a man with your kind of bounty". In other translations I've seen Shanks say he doesn't care who started it, and mentions the bounty as if he was willing to turn Higuma in. Obviously no idea what's more accurate, but curious as I hadn't seen that.

Absolutely gonna read the rest, and hope you keep it up.

King Cannon

@realtenchu said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

@hideoushorrendous said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

@desa

you want it to make sense and throwing an assumption that he made a deal with them for things to turn out the way it is

I appreciate your understanding of the issue.

the matter of fact is, it's an issue caused by making everything centered to the mc's which i find... the most annoying part of the series

the world of one piece is very interesting. it deserves better mc's and more variety. and I guarantee you such issues won't exist.

But what is the issue?. That they didn’t pursue the Roger’s?. We don’t know that.
But if they didn’t, they had a good reason and it was explained very well by a post on this page. (with fat bonuses on the line)

The WG are practical people and opportunists.
Can we?.
How much will it cost?
Is it worth the effort?.
Etc.

And all of that has been shown in the story. They were in business with Kaido. Then wanting to take over Wano if and when Kaido fell. Treedude not wanting to deal with Shanks.
Kizaru not keep fighting Rayleigh.
Everybody gotta be practical.

Yeah, in the end, a lot boils down to simply manpower and resources, which is something we know is an in-universe problem going by how understaffed the Marines were post-Levely. 4 Warlords (Buggy, Hancock, Mihawk, Weevil) were enough to put the Marines in a bad position, which was not helped by the 8 countries rebelling soon after.

You can't just send 100 or so men to hunt freakin' Rayleigh. Even an Admiral is not guaranteed to be successful and there are only three of them.

Kitsune Inferno

@Captain-M said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

On this break with for the manga, with so little else to talk about, I thought I'd introduce an idea that's been hanging over my mind for a long time: a rewritten script for the One Piece manga, compiled from the information in as many previous versions, both official and fanmade, as I can find, and filtered through my own authorial attempts to make character voice, tone and terminology consistent.

I want to make it clear up front that I'm not a translator and I'm not doing a translation. All I'm doing is compiling and revising what's been done by others.

The foreword in the volume 1 doc goes into more detail.

Find the text for the full first volume of the manga in PDF form here:

https://captainmentertainment.com/one-piece-rewrite-project-volume-1/

I would have liked to have copied the text in directly (I know PDF embedding is not going to be friendly to every device) but Wordpress strips all the spacing-related formatting from Word doc text unless I upgrade my plan and start playing around with plugins. I would consider that if it turns out there's demand for this project and people are connecting with my style of writing.

I hope you all enjoy, and I hope you don't think I'm totally full of myself to even attempt something like this.

Oooh, this is an interesting idea. One thing that kinda bugs me about re-reading One Piece lately is especially early One Piece in the states has a questionable translation, and many fan-scanlations are just as rough. I've wanted to go back at some point and take a stab at re-translating myself to help learn Japanese more but also because there are little needling things that bug me, like I've never seen a translation do anything with Chapter 81's title, which is so blatantly a pun that only works in Japanese.

But I wouldn't want to start a project like that until I have more information, because I'm pretty certain Roger's last words are riddled with double meanings that no translation has captured yet, simply because of lack of context -- context we won't have until the true nature of Roger's dream and the One Piece are revealed.

desa

Changing subject

Do we know if the ponyglyphs is a forgotten language or a secret language?

Meaning it was known to general public of the time but after the war the language was lost or it was always known to very few.

cavendishsama

@desa I do not believe we know.

Personally I think it might not be a language at all, but rather code for the common tongue. It's not based on much of anything, but we've just never seen a different language spoken anywhere, no matter how remote, I guess the ancient kingdom is of course unique in many ways so why not one more, but if it is a language, shouldn't someone like Zunesha who knew Joyboy speak it? I mean maybe he does and we just haven't learned it about him, but either way, my feeling is, it's code - not actually a language.

Captain M

@cavendishsama Thank you! I'll definitely continue posting new volumes as I work through them. Definitely going to be a long haul effort though.

You make a fair point on the Shanks line. I was trying to organically tie together the two sentiments of 'no one's going to care who started it' and 'there's a big price on your head' into a single thought, making it question with a little bit of a sarcastic edge. He's still saying 'people aren't going to think too hard about whether you were the instigator because of your reputation.' I didn't want Shanks to allude to the idea of turning Higuma in for the bounty himself, since we know pirates can't typically do that in the series' larger worldbuilding.

But there is something of a gap between 'people won't believe' and 'people won't care.' You definitely gain a new appreciation for the challenges real translators face, weighing how far your comfortable massaging the meaning for even lines like this.

Captain M

@Kitsune-Inferno thank you, yeah, it's so overdue.

You've very right about the more information thing. We're pretty close to the endgame and have a much stronger idea about a lot of important things than we would have ten, five or even two years ago, but there's a lot still to answer. But hosting via a blog where I can just update the embedded file and make a post with patch notes, so to speak, gives me a bit more leeway than fully distributed releases to update if I have to.

There are definitely challenges ahead. Talking around Luffy's dream is something I'm not looking forward to, alongside a whole lot of puns and attack names with multi-lingual meanings, cultural things and catch phrases you want to be true to without being awkward about (Buggy's "flashy" does not work fluidly in English everywhere he uses it in Japanese). And lore things like deciding how hard (if at all) to obscure Laugh Tale's name at its first mention.

But if I do manage to go all the way with this thing, it'll still take months if not years to hit some of the most difficult parts, so I've got plenty of time to decide.

electricmastro

@sgamer82 said in Chapter 1116: Inner Conflict:

My belief is that Roger starting the Great Pirate Era was his response to discovering the truth. I don't know about the rest of the Roger pirates, other than Oden who had his own crises to deal with, but I could see them thinking this was their captain's plan and they have faith in it. Or they just legit didn't care. That's always an option.

Then again, there's definitely something more to all this that Vegapunk doesn't know.

Just look at Crocus who, as lighthouse keeper at Reverse Mountain, was well positioned to guide incoming sailors. However he gives the Straw Hats incorrect/incomplete information about Laugh Tale that, if followed, would take them to Lodestar instead.

On the subject of not arresting other Roger pirates, a thought occurs: it probably wasn't that hard for most of them to go into obscurity. It largely depends on how well known the less infamous members were. The Government would definitely be interested in any single member of Roger's crew they could find, but how easily are they going to figure out who random Roger Pirate A was? They likely didn't know Crocus hooked up with them, since he returned to his lighthouse job after, didn't figure out Buggy was in Roger's crew until after they'd arrested him for unrelated reasons, and even assuming they knew Shanks's connection to Roger, he'd gained enough power to not be taken easily. Meanwhile, Oden was unreachable in Wano and Rayleigh dropped off the grid entirely by all indications. Don't know why they haven't persued him in the time they've known he's on Sabaody, but that's a whole different question.

Honestly, I'm starting to think the World Government went after Tom precisely because they couldn't get anybody else but still needed an example made.

Speaking of Buggy, I wonder if Croc has put 2 and 2 together in such a way that he'll ask Buggy if he knows anything about getting to Laugh Tale to better access info about the weapons.