I don't think so. Robin will connect the whole things at the end. We won't get total story until SHs reach Laugh Tale. But Imu's identity or Uranus reveal doesn't need Robin's presence.
Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon
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I dunno which is worse, Imu being horny for Lily or Imu being Lily. Or maybe Oda feels silly and wants to go the possesion route? Some evil old thing in their brand new Lily suit lol. Maybe looking to trade up into a new model
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@Alfiere said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
I think it would be highly disrespectful if any big reveal about the void century and related topics came to us without any involvement whatsoever of Robin.
That is already highly likely due to Vegapunk's search going further than what Ohara accomplished. Sad as it is, the next big lore bomb won't be dropped by Robin.
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@Goukan said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
That is already highly likely due to Vegapunk's search going further than what Ohara accomplished. Sad as it is, the next big lore bomb won't be dropped by Robin.
I already kinda made peace with that, meaning I don't expect any non-nika strawhat to have any active role anymore in pushing forward the story anymore.
But at least her being present when we first hear something new is the very bare minimum that anybody who dared to have any amount of involvement in these people's stories should be entitled to.Her later discovering about the Imu-Nika-Lily-big elephant love quadrilateral won't be very cathartic if that's several years old news for us.
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@auem Because he'll be redeemed and become an ally for the final arc. I can't wait for his flashback.
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I know you are kidding, but i wouldn't put it past him to redeem them in some way
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Pretty sure that Imu is just butthurt that Lily didn’t decide to join them probably. He can’t take no for an answer as the King of the world. Nothing to do with love or stuff like that. Also Imu being Lily doesn’t make sense or else why would Alabasta have a ponegliff or the why would the elders call the Nefertari traitors ? Elders calling them traitors should tell us how Imu views Lily
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@Joy-Boy said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Pretty sure that Imu is just butthurt that Lily didn’t decide to join them probably. He can’t take no for an answer as the King of the world. Nothing to do with love or stuff like that. Also Imu being Lily doesn’t make sense or else why would Alabasta have a ponegliff or the why would the elders call the Nefertari traitors ? Elders calling them traitors should tell us how Imu views Lily
Seeing that the Nefertari remained in Arabasta after everything, they could very well be traitors, or at least her younger brother was.
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@wolfwood said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
I know you are kidding, but i wouldn't put it past him to redeem them in some way
The character is utter filth, there's nothing worthy in him that can be saved. I want to hope that isn't gonna happen.
NOT EVEN CLOSE, SIR!
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@Xelloss said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@wolfwood said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
I know you are kidding, but i wouldn't put it past him to redeem them in some way
The character is utter filth, there's nothing worthy in him that can be saved. I want to hope that isn't gonna happen.
Yeah, but it sadly feels slightly more likely for Oda to find a way to go oh they aren't so bad than for him to kill them off.
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In light of the Lily comparisons, am curious to see if Im turns out to be a woman. If that's the case, it might turn out Luffy won't directly fight her though. Oda never really has Luffy beat up female supermodel-types.
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Charlos will continue to get beat up in Ed Edd n Eddy-esque ways, if anything he'll reach new heights of slapstick agony now that Luffy is cartoon character.
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@Captain-M said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
But there's also Yamato. Sigh. Look, I think at this stage Yamato in Oda's mind is just a man and a woman all at once, as the scene requires. I don't really want to talk pronouns again, but here we go. There aren't and will never be official pronouns for Yamato as English-speakers understand the term. Because casual Japanese language mostly uses neutral second and third-person pronouns (equivalents being 'you,' 'they,' 'that person,' just calling them by name, etc) and has most of the gendering happen via first-person pronouns (so masculine and feminine forms of 'I,' 'me,' 'myself,' etc), it isn't the same social faux pas to refer to someone with the wrong gender in part because it's much harder to do. And the first-person pronouns are taken as more of a masculine or feminine flair rather than the definitive statement of gender English third-person pronouns are, and will often shift based on the mood and formality of the conversation as well. So the Vivre Card didn't "confirm" anything except the biological bits we can all see because it wouldn't occur to a Japanese-speaking author to correct a form of reference that doesn't really exist in his language. Unfortunately, Yamato's mode of speech doesn't confirm one thing or another either, because of the flexibility outlined above. Deciding how to refer to a character like Yamato, or anyone fully androgynous or with a tendency to cross-dress becomes less about translation and more about adaptation because the cultural and social ways gender is expressed and how those expressions are taken just don't line up 1:1. Oda hasn't made Yamato a he/him or a she/her or even a they/them, so we have to look at how the character acts and what they say and how others respond to them and decide what the best fit for that is in our own framework. And to me, Yamato in the story (particularly the bath scene) screams someone who wants to be viewed as firmly masculine. Maybe a retranslation with the benefit of hindsight could go back over everything and play Yamato in more of a nonbinary/genderfluid/bigender way that gels better with these noncanon depictions of them as one of the girls, but in the version we have, the in-story Yamato reads male.
Oh good, I'm not the only one it's bothering. Gender is so . . . complicated in Japanese history it's so hard to pinpoint unless the author makes it obvious. At the moment I'm calling them non-binary, just because it makes it easier. Giant boobs or no.
And that's what it's really all about in the end. I.e. what damn pronoun are we supposed to use here?! This must be driving Stephen nuts. Yamato can be he/she/they or whatever, just make it easier to translate.
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@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@Captain-M said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
But there's also Yamato. Sigh. Look, I think at this stage Yamato in Oda's mind is just a man and a woman all at once, as the scene requires. I don't really want to talk pronouns again, but here we go. There aren't and will never be official pronouns for Yamato as English-speakers understand the term. Because casual Japanese language mostly uses neutral second and third-person pronouns (equivalents being 'you,' 'they,' 'that person,' just calling them by name, etc) and has most of the gendering happen via first-person pronouns (so masculine and feminine forms of 'I,' 'me,' 'myself,' etc), it isn't the same social faux pas to refer to someone with the wrong gender in part because it's much harder to do. And the first-person pronouns are taken as more of a masculine or feminine flair rather than the definitive statement of gender English third-person pronouns are, and will often shift based on the mood and formality of the conversation as well. So the Vivre Card didn't "confirm" anything except the biological bits we can all see because it wouldn't occur to a Japanese-speaking author to correct a form of reference that doesn't really exist in his language. Unfortunately, Yamato's mode of speech doesn't confirm one thing or another either, because of the flexibility outlined above. Deciding how to refer to a character like Yamato, or anyone fully androgynous or with a tendency to cross-dress becomes less about translation and more about adaptation because the cultural and social ways gender is expressed and how those expressions are taken just don't line up 1:1. Oda hasn't made Yamato a he/him or a she/her or even a they/them, so we have to look at how the character acts and what they say and how others respond to them and decide what the best fit for that is in our own framework. And to me, Yamato in the story (particularly the bath scene) screams someone who wants to be viewed as firmly masculine. Maybe a retranslation with the benefit of hindsight could go back over everything and play Yamato in more of a nonbinary/genderfluid/bigender way that gels better with these noncanon depictions of them as one of the girls, but in the version we have, the in-story Yamato reads male.
Oh good, I'm not the only one it's bothering. Gender is so . . . complicated in Japanese history it's so hard to pinpoint unless the author makes it obvious. At the moment I'm calling them non-binary, just because it makes it easier. Giant boobs or no.
And that's what it's really all about in the end. I.e. what damn pronoun are we supposed to use here?! This must be driving Stephen nuts. Yamato can be he/she/they or whatever, just make it easier to translate.
Yamato is a lady who wants the freedom Oden had, not what he had in his pants.
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Im being Lily.... as in the one kingdom that didn't join the other 20 kingdoms was the secret leader kingdom all along kinda fits.
But why would Im talk about himself when he could have just told cobra, I'm lily.
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@zorosempai said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Im being Lily.... as in the one kingdom that didn't join the other 20 kingdoms was the secret leader kingdom all along kinda fits.
But why would Im talk about himself when he could have just told cobra, I'm lily.
You have no sense of drama
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@Satsuki Yeah, it's a tough one, made worse by how much of a hot-button issue gender has ended up becoming in the English-speaking world right now. And so many people who just see the bits that match up with what they expect from the boobs and flat out ignore all of the other context and dialogue that adds complicating nuance. It's like if an author doesn't use the word 'transgender' directly and explicitly fans decide the character can't possibly have been written with a more faceted identity than just 'man' or 'woman.'
Internet fanbases are exhausting sometimes.
I don't think we'll ever have a full answer to the pronoun question because linguistically it doesn't make sense for Oda to have thought of one. And I really don't envy anyone who has to translate a series like this week by week and make calls about things like this with so little to go on. I wonder if Stephen's ever talked on the podcast or anywhere about lines he'd handle differently after seeing how the story actually played out.
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I think Swayer7mage made a good comparison between Mr.2's scene at the end of Alabasta and Yamato, don't have the panel on hand, but I think its part of Chapter 215 and Volume 21.
In case you guys want to know what he said, here's the video link.SW-3170-8630-8341
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@Captain-M said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@Satsuki Yeah, it's a tough one, made worse by how much of a hot-button issue gender has ended up becoming in the English-speaking world right now. And so many people who just see the bits that match up with what they expect from the boobs and flat out ignore all of the other context and dialogue that adds complicating nuance. It's like if an author doesn't use the word 'transgender' directly and explicitly fans decide the character can't possibly have been written with a more faceted identity than just 'man' or 'woman.'
Internet fanbases are exhausting sometimes.
I don't think we'll ever have a full answer to the pronoun question because linguistically it doesn't make sense for Oda to have thought of one. And I really don't envy anyone who has to translate a series like this week by week and make calls about things like this with so little to go on. I wonder if Stephen's ever talked on the podcast or anywhere about lines he'd handle differently after seeing how the story actually played out.
The fact that many people are debating this far more than with Kiku is telling to me that Yamato really is different from Kiku's case in spite of what people say about the bath and whatever else. Remembering how this is the same manga where a dad hesitated to give his dojo to his daughter since he saw men as stronger than women and than women couldn't be the strongest swordsmen, it seems evident enough to me that Yamato treats "man" like a form of strength in addition as a means to achieve freedom. Kaido seems to reinforce this too with calling her "son", since that echoes patriarchies and treating men as the strongest.
@The-Light-of-Shandora said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
I think Swayer7mage made a good comparison between Mr.2's scene at the end of Alabasta and Yamato, don't have the panel on hand, but I think its part of Chapter 215 and Volume 21.
In case you guys want to know what he said, here's the video link.I understand that Oda is basically treating Yamato with the use of "man" as an adjective, as a descriptor to be "manly" or "macho" which leads Yamato to do manly things she feels Oden would have done like bathe with the dudes or dress up like Oden. If Yamato really was the same as Kiku, he would have written things like "man at heart", yet he more so seems to be writing Yamato as a woman trying to be a macho tomboy so as to achieve the freedom Oden had. It just makes the most sense to me.
That does make me wonder if Yamato will keep doing that now that she has achieved freedom though.
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@electricmastro That's simple. Give her some sort of horrible looking Demoness Mythical Zoan.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@electricmastro That's simple. Give her some sort of horrible looking Demoness Mythical Zoan.
Even then, Oda might hesitate. He didn't even have Luffy beat Monet down to the ground even after transforming into a snow demon form.
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@wolfwood I am joking indeed, not because I don't think it's likely but because it's ridiculous.
When Joyboy will succeed and fulfill his destiny. I don't think he will massacre the Celestial Dragons. They're gonna be kept alive and will somehow be redeemed. Imagine One Piece ending like THAT manga with full extermination of THESE people for a second. Would be a great way to ruin his manga...
But anyway, we're very far from that moment. We have to meet more Celestial Dragons first.
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@Nilitch said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@wolfwood I am joking indeed, not because I don't think it's likely but because it's ridiculous.
When Joyboy will succeed and fulfill his destiny. I don't think he will massacre the Celestial Dragons. They're gonna be kept alive and will somehow be redeemed. Imagine One Piece ending like THAT manga with full extermination of THESE people for a second. Would be a great way to ruin his manga...
But anyway, we're very far from that moment. We have to meet more Celestial Dragons first.
I suppose Oda keeps it both ways where he redeems some like Mjosgard, while Charlos isn't. I get the feeling there's a whole bunch that won't be redeemed because they're too far gone already.
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Oda is a wonderful feminist. One reason I like OP.
This is again a complications of culture comparisons. Oda made Kiku nice and simple, starting with her as female straight from the beginning (and very feminine to boot), only revealing that she was a "boy" in her childhood. But after that she's female and nobody batted an eye about it, other than maybe a double-take. Even her cis(?) brother apparently likes makeup.
Yamato's whole character arc makes it so much harder to track. Starts with "Kaido has a DAUGHTER?!", then "I AM Oden!", then all the back and forth about "daughter vs. son", Yamato's backstory, then that bathtub. And he just made it harder by putting them in the girls-only color spread. You're spinning us in circles, Oda. Somebody send him an SBS letter.
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@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Oda is a wonderful feminist. One reason I like OP.
This is again a complications of culture comparisons. Oda made Kiku nice and simple, starting with her as female straight from the beginning (and very feminine to boot), only revealing that she was a "boy" in her childhood. But after that she's female and nobody batted an eye about it, other than maybe a double-take. Even her cis(?) brother apparently likes makeup.
Yamato's whole character arc makes it so much harder to track. Starts with "Kaido has a DAUGHTER?!", then "I AM Oden!", then all the back and forth about "daughter vs. son", Yamato's backstory, then that bathtub. And he just made it harder by putting them in the girls-only color spread. You're spinning us in circles, Oda. Somebody send him an SBS letter.
Actually, couldn’t that bath be taken as a comedic gag? We might as well claim Nami has Conqueror’s Haki because Jinbe said she had it. lol
But really though, Kiku seems simple because she’s not letting anyone dictate what she can or can’t be, whereas Yamato is letting Oden dictate what she can or can’t be, saying things line “I will be this!” Or “I must become this!” And could be indicative of how indecisive, uncertain, and maybe even impulsive Yamato is regarding her situation.
The fact that Kiku seems perfectly satisfied that she has long since reached a point she’s comfortable with while Yamato still seems like she has to perform some achievement in order to “become” Oden is rather telling. Wouldn’t surprise me if a cover story went more in-depth with her trying to copy all the things Oden did and realizes she can never be him, because there’s only one of him and that she can be free while staying true to herself.
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I'm not at all an expert in this kind of thing, but Kiku would be genuinely a transsexual person, whereas Yamato seems to think of themselves as just being Oden, firstly, instead of being a man,
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
I'm not at all an expert in this kind of thing, but Kiku would be genuinely a transsexual person, whereas Yamato seems to think of themselves as just being Oden, firstly, instead of being a man,
I can definitely see that. There's also the matter of Yamato using terms like "boku", which I understand have been historically associated with tomboys, unless people want to go with the take that tomboys are exactly the same as transsexual people. It reminds me of when Kuina said she wanted to be a born a man after telling Zoro about her dad saying women can't be the strongest swordsman actually.
If the latter is true, then it puts into question how much Oda would want his fans to see Yamato as a transsexual person vs. a tomboy who treats Oden the man as a form of strength and freedom. If Oda wanted his fans to see Yamato as a transsexual person, then I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have drawn Yamato on a cover with many ladies, regardless of canonicity.
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This post is deleted!
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Oda is a wonderful feminist. One reason I like OP.
This is again a complications of culture comparisons. Oda made Kiku nice and simple, starting with her as female straight from the beginning (and very feminine to boot), only revealing that she was a "boy" in her childhood. But after that she's female and nobody batted an eye about it, other than maybe a double-take. Even her cis(?) brother apparently likes makeup.
Yamato's whole character arc makes it so much harder to track. Starts with "Kaido has a DAUGHTER?!", then "I AM Oden!", then all the back and forth about "daughter vs. son", Yamato's backstory, then that bathtub. And he just made it harder by putting them in the girls-only color spread. You're spinning us in circles, Oda. Somebody send him an SBS letter.
Actually, couldn’t that bath be taken as a comedic gag? We might as well claim Nami has Conqueror’s Haki because Jinbe said she had it. lol
That's the question. Was it a comedic gag or was it intended to be more serious?
Kinda reminding me of good ole Revolutionary Girl Utena, about the girl who wanted to be a prince to show her strength and help people. Her relationship with the "princess" is a big part of the show, and she uses "boku", but her actual gender was never a plot point. It was more about a girl's station and image. In the end she was pretty much a female prince, not a princess.
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@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Oda is a wonderful feminist. One reason I like OP.
This is again a complications of culture comparisons. Oda made Kiku nice and simple, starting with her as female straight from the beginning (and very feminine to boot), only revealing that she was a "boy" in her childhood. But after that she's female and nobody batted an eye about it, other than maybe a double-take. Even her cis(?) brother apparently likes makeup.
Yamato's whole character arc makes it so much harder to track. Starts with "Kaido has a DAUGHTER?!", then "I AM Oden!", then all the back and forth about "daughter vs. son", Yamato's backstory, then that bathtub. And he just made it harder by putting them in the girls-only color spread. You're spinning us in circles, Oda. Somebody send him an SBS letter.
Actually, couldn’t that bath be taken as a comedic gag? We might as well claim Nami has Conqueror’s Haki because Jinbe said she had it. lol
That's the question. Was it a comedic gag or was it intended to be more serious?
Kinda reminding me of good ole Revolutionary Girl Utena, about the girl who wanted to be a prince to show her strength and help people. Her relationship with the "princess" is a big part of the show, and she uses "boku", but her actual gender was never a plot point. It was more about a girl's station and image. In the end she was pretty much a female prince, not a princess.
Considering the nosebleed, seems like more of a joke than anything else.
And I was reminded of Revolutionary Girl Utena, as well as Rose of Versailles, in that there are female characters/tomboys who wish or put themselves in the role of a man as a means to be strong rather than just a statement on being trans. Again, going back to Kuina, who wished she was the boy Zoro was in order to validate her own strength. I don't think this is meant to be a statement of Kuina wanting to be trans or anything like that.
Yamato and Kaido didn't really talk about this, yeah, but given how this comes from the same manga, I think it's still worth considering.
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About Yamato and gender, the whole issue is that… we missed their character development. Everyone expected Yamato’s emotional journey to go from “I wanna be exactly Oden” to “I am my own person, and will seek my path and freedom”, and that didn’t happen in the story (yet). I would argue most of us don’t understand exactly how far Yamato means when she says she wants to be Oden. Or we don’ t like a character trying so hard to be another. So there is still this expectation of finding out who Yamato is.
Im can’t be Lily, otherwise they would’t have left a letter to the Nefertaris telling about D.
(Expecting the next chapter’s title to be either “Cobra, King of Alabasta “ or “The Truth of D.”) -
@Chams-0 I'm an easy guy to please, but all I'm saying is that we better get something juicy next chapter. Imu's face reveal and/or why they are the King of the World is a good start.
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@electricmastro There is no denial here that Yamato's situation is different from Kiku's. But just because they aren't Kiku's kind of explicit and completely passing trans doesn't mean there's no nuance or complicating factors to their identity.
It is fair to say that Yamato is not a trans man in the same way that Kiku is a trans woman, but it is not fair to say because of that, 'Yamato is a woman, end of story.' Because the story has told us a whole lot more about Yamato.
Even if your interpretation that Yamato sees being a man as just a way of appearing strong, I don't actually see how than changes anything. They still say outright that they decided to be a man, and still chose to go with the men in a gender-segregated setting. They've still been certain enough about it for long enough that their father calls them 'son' and his underlings call them 'young master.' And yes, it's complicated that they're doing this without a rejection of femininity, with the author showing us that they're doing this without necessarily stopping being a woman as well, in at least some aspects of their life. Which is why some interpretations are leaning toward a level of fluidity.
There is so much gendered language and context you have to outright ignore to claim they just 'use it as an adjective like manly or macho.' Even if the result isn't as simple as 'they are full time a man.' Yamato isn't being written as either/or, they occupy a space in the middle with overlap into both zones.
Even the undeniable either/or case of Kiku demonstrates some of this when she accepts her masculine birth name being used when she's fully armoured up and in warrior mode. Even there, we have nuance in the character's relationship with gender and personal identity.
Not all of being trans (or gender-nonconforming or however you want to describe Yamato) is saying 'I'm a man because my body feels incomplete without a penis.' Sometimes it can be 'I'm a man because the roles men are expected to take in society and the ways they are perceived by others feel more natural and desirable to me than the ones pushed onto women.' Yamato deniers go on about the character's motives, 'they just want to be Oden,' 'it's all about strength,' but the motives are less important than the fact that even in their own inner monologue they are a son rather than a daughter.
Kaido's use of 'son' doesn't seem to be about patriarchies or his own sexism at all. We see in Yamato's flashback about the cave that Kaido's attitude toward Yamato's identity is 'I'll treat you like whatever you want to be so decide carefully and hope you can survive the consequences.' He's doing it directly in response to Yamato. And while he has lived in Wano for decades, Kaido hasn't exactly culturally assimilated and probably shouldn't be presumed to hold the same values and expectations as the Wano-native Koshiro did at his dojo.
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@Chams-0 said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
About Yamato and gender, the whole issue is that… we missed their character development. Everyone expected Yamato’s emotional journey to go from “I wanna be exactly Oden” to “I am my own person, and will seek my path and freedom”, and that didn’t happen in the story (yet). I would argue most of us don’t understand exactly how far Yamato means when she says she wants to be Oden. Or we don’ t like a character trying so hard to be another. So there is still this expectation of finding out who Yamato is.
Im can’t be Lily, otherwise they would’t have left a letter to the Nefertaris telling about D.
(Expecting the next chapter’s title to be either “Cobra, King of Alabasta “ or “The Truth of D.”)Considering Usopp's situation using another persona to cover his own insecurities and the idea of being true to yourself, I think it would have been reasonable enough for me to presume that we'd get a little more insight about Yamato's feelings and how she'd want to go on with her life moving forward, but I guess that was too much to ask during the Wano arc as it was.
I admit it would have helped to see more, but from what I did see, my gut reaction is to say that Yamato tries to take on the identity of Oden not just with the attempt to be free, but also out of fear that Oden's will wouldn't live on and felt obligated to try to live up to his name after he got killed. We even saw Yamato as a kid express sadness and anxiety over Oden getting killed and felt to take up his name in some desperate attempt to give Wano hope. Yamato might not look like she's too insecure, but considering her experiences, my gut reaction is to say she feels insecurity deep down.
Again, that's just a gut reaction, but it's what I think. I'd suppose Yamato would think about more about what person she would want to be post-battle like in a cover story, since she'd presumably be talking to other citizens and getting more perspectives from them to ponder over.
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@Captain-M said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
There is so much gendered language and context you have to outright ignore to claim they just 'use it as an adjective like manly or macho.' Even if the result isn't as simple as 'they are full time a man.' Yamato isn't being written as either/or, they occupy a space in the middle with overlap into both zones.
I think what it all really comes down to is whether or not Yamato has completely abandoned any desire to be a woman at this point.
The fact that Yamato uses both "Oden" and "Yamato" in introductions could be telling enough that Yamato is trying to juggle the identities of both Yamato the woman and Oden the man, but is just more vocal about Oden in order to give more hope.
I think that would still make the gendered language and context you mention like "Kaido's son", the men's bath scene, "Kaido's daughter", "boku", "Yamato-chan", and the Yamato women color spread all make sense, or at least from what I take away from it, in that Yamato is trying to appease both identities.
It sounds inconsistent and indecisive, but considering how little of social world Yamato knows and can be prone to eccentrically making decisions even at last minute, I think, basically, it makes sense that she's not making sense, get it?
So yeah, I'm not really saying "Yamato is a woman, end of story." At this point, in keeping what I think is happening with Yamato, it seems legitimately fine enough to refer to Yamato as either a man or woman. If Oda really wanted to push the idea of Yamato "exclusively" being a man, then would he really do things like 1084's cover?
If treating Yamato as both a man and woman at the same time sounds weird and non-conforming to how we view gender in real life, then for all I know, maybe that's the point.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
The fact that Yamato uses both "Oden" and "Yamato" in introductions could be telling enough that Yamato is trying to juggle the identities of both Yamato the woman and Oden the man, but is just more vocal about Oden in order to give more hope.
I felt that Yamato presents himself as "Yamato" when he's confident, and uses "Oden" when he's less sure of himself and decides to use a more "impressive" moniker.
He meets Luffy. This is the day he waited for four years. He just saved Luffy and is full of himself, so he's Yamato.
Luffy orders him to help Momo and Shinobu, Yamato feels far less confident, even hesitant, so he calls himself Oden.
He finally meets the Straw Hats, barging in as a stranger while they are all together and with Luffy uncounscious. He's unsure and wants to give them a good impression, so he's Oden again.
He faces an Admiral with the Scabbards. He feels more like Yamato, as being the Son of Kaido would be more intimidating at that point.
It's just my impression, but it kinda fits.
But I don't think he ties his gender to such presentations. Even as "Yamato", he's still "Kaido's son". And the bath scene speaks volumes.
But Oda did give Yamato a very clear feminine design, and doesn't shy away to exploit that for fanservice. So, it's... ambiguous. And confusing.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
The fact that Yamato uses both "Oden" and "Yamato" in introductions could be telling enough that Yamato is trying to juggle the identities of both Yamato the woman and Oden the man, but is just more vocal about Oden in order to give more hope.
I felt that Yamato presents himself as "Yamato" when he's confident, and uses "Oden" when he's less sure of himself and decides to use a more "impressive" moniker.
He meets Luffy. This is the day he waited for four years. He just saved Luffy and is full of himself, so he's Yamato.
Luffy orders him to help Momo and Shinobu, Yamato feels far less confident, even hesitant, so he calls himself Oden.
He finally meets the Straw Hats, barging in as a stranger while they are all together and with Luffy uncounscious. He's unsure and wants to give them a good impression, so he's Oden again.
He faces an Admiral with the Scabbards. He feels more like Yamato, as being the Son of Kaido would be more intimidating at that point.
It's just my impression, but it kinda fits.
But I don't think he ties his gender to such presentations. Even as "Yamato", he's still "Kaido's son". And the bath scene speaks volumes.
But Oda did give Yamato a very clear feminine design, and doesn't shy away to exploit that for fanservice. So, it's... ambiguous. And confusing.
I think you're onto something here. It could totally turn out that Yamato just says "Yamato" and "Oden" interchangeably for whatever situations feels most convenient, like accounting for how an admiral may be more likely to know about Kaido than Oden, and so uses Kaido's name as intimidation to ward him off even though he has been defeated.
Again, I don't have overwhelming evidence, but Yamato having internal conflict/insecurity/fears/etc. regarding using Oden's name vs. Yamato's name simply makes sense to me.
If it really comes across as confusing, then that just may be more indicative of how confused Yamato herself is, despite appearing confident on the outside.
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I think what it all really comes down to is whether or not Yamato has completely abandoned any desire to be a woman at this point.
Sure, but unfortunately we don't have anything in-canon to suggest how they feel about that yet. Plenty of words about being a man, but we don't hear them engage with the idea of femininity. No big interaction with Sanji, no dealing with a woman who wants to treat them like one of the girls or anything. Closest I can think of is the moment in the Ace flashback where they show a flash of annoyance at being identified as "Kaido's daughter," but there's a few ways to read that.
All we have to go on for Yamato and womanhood is stuff outside the actual story. Oda knows things about his characters that we don't, which is why his choice to include them in a girls' group colour spread is significant and shifted my interpretation from firmly male after the bath scene to the more fluid one we've been talking out here.
The fact that Yamato uses both "Oden" and "Yamato" in introductions could be telling enough that Yamato is trying to juggle the identities of both Yamato the woman and Oden the man, but is just more vocal about Oden in order to give more hope.
The issue I take with this is that Yamato doesn't distinguish the two roles they try to play in the way you're describing. They introduce themselves with "I'm Yamato, Kaido's son!" and think in their cave flashback "I'm Oden, but also the son of Kaido." Even when using the Yamato name and drawing a distinction between that and Oden, they use masculine terms. I can't see evidence for a cleanly distinguished 'Yamato the woman' identity in their head. And while obviously the idea of being a woman isn't out of the question, the things they say and do tell us it's not boxed in around that one name and persona.
So yeah, I'm not really saying "Yamato is a woman, end of story." At this point, in keeping what I think is happened with Yamato, it seems legitimately fine enough to refer to Yamato as either a man or woman. If Oda really wanted to push the idea of Yamato "exclusively" being a man, then would he really do things like 1084's cover?
That's basically what I've been saying this whole thread. Whether it is back and forth or both at once, the only thing clear is that it isn't firmly one or the other. The rhetorical question at the end there, when this discussion was sparked by a change in interpretation based on the spread, makes it feel a little like you're arguing against a position I'm not actually taking.
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@Captain-M said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
The issue I take with this is that Yamato doesn't distinguish the two roles they try to play in the way you're describing. They introduce themselves with "I'm Yamato, Kaido's son!" and think in their cave flashback "I'm Oden, but also the son of Kaido." Even when using the Yamato name and drawing a distinction between that and Oden, they use masculine terms. I can't see evidence for a cleanly distinguished 'Yamato the woman' identity in their head. And while obviously the idea of being a woman isn't out of the question, the things they say and do tell us it's not boxed in around that one name and persona.
I'm agreeing with what Deicide was getting at in that Yamato is using Oden's name not just to achieve freedom, but to overcome any lack of confidence she feels.
And I know I don't have an overwhelming amount of evidence to support that, but just thinking about what Yamato has been through and looking at her actions, my gut reaction is to say that insecurity is that main thing at play with her, even if the manga hasn't shown it up-close and at length. It just makes sense to me.
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What we need is an SBS or a cover story.
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@Satsuki said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
What we need is an SBS or a cover story.
SBS would most likely get rejected by people who reject Vivre Cards or are even rejecting 1084's cover, just because they felt like it. It might very well take cover stories, if not, chapters within the manga itself detailing Yamato's feelings in such a way that would incline more people to think deeper beyond seeing Yamato as just one thing, to put it simply.
And in not wanting to completely derail the thread...
@Joy-Boy said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Pretty sure that Imu is just butthurt that Lily didn’t decide to join them probably. He can’t take no for an answer as the King of the world. Nothing to do with love or stuff like that. Also Imu being Lily doesn’t make sense or else why would Alabasta have a ponegliff or the why would the elders call the Nefertari traitors ? Elders calling them traitors should tell us how Imu views Lily
Where does that put Shirahoshi? Just a weapon or something more?
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In regards to Yamato's gender, does it really matter in the end?
seems like a moot point of argument to me personally. -
@trollatron786 It matters for a bunch of people who are craving to ban all the persons who misgender. For some reason, lots of other characters do not get this much drama (Bentham, Ivankov, Morley...). It's all about Yamato's huge tits.
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What I dont understand about the drama is why are people trying to place him in a box so much.*
Its not like you re either cisgender or trans, with no inbetween.
There are queer and non binary people, who still end up looking, or like to look, either more feminine or masculine, they dont have to be androgenous.
And they still get to choose the pronouns they prefer, Yamato likes the male ones.So Yamato as been presented in both just one of the boys scenes and a just the girls colourspreads, because, despite his use of male pronouns, he doesnt show that much preference to either side.
Hes in between, not on the fence or undecided, but confortabily in the middle.*I do understand why so many care so much about this issue, its because they re wankers. Like literally, they need to justify the feelings in their pants about a fictional character are valid and not disgusting.
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I always thought Yamato being a guy is her playing a role, just like how in Japanese cultural history, females do play male roles in Kabuki, which is followed by voice acting even. The earliest kabuki actors were in fact actresses playing male roles. This is something ingrained in their cultural history that the west simply do not get. Just like how the Acts and Kanjuro's role flew over their heads and they simply do not care but instead jump immediately onto the whole trans/gender debate as if Oda cares as much as they do.
Both extreme sides of the debate choose to be ignorant instead of understanding that no, the whole world does not actually revolve around great oh-fucking-america.
Just like how Sanji is a cook down to his very soul and Zoro lives and breathe swordsmanship, Yamato lives and breathes the role of Oden. If Oden won't be feminine, she won't. If Oden bathes with the guys, she would. Oda explicitly did two things: created Kiku as the trans-character and made her sexuality very evident and whether you want to accept it or not, approved Yamato's gender in the book plus drew her in the recent cover. He's not exactly going out of the way to portray her as a trans either. The character doesn't seem to particularly gives a shit about making it a big deal.
It might be hard for the west to accept that not everything needs a fucking label and there's an in-between. Hell, the whole country of Japan is an in-between.
I'll even go on a limb that says that like Luffy, Yamato's sexuality matters less than who or what their dream is and who they represent. I thought the audience have read the series enough to know that who you are doesn't matter as much as who you want to be but here we are.So if the question is then what is Yamato's gender and I'll say maybe, just maybe, consider that she is biologically a female but wants to be Oden, to the very minute/extreme and that includes masculine behavior and you know, acting like how he, a biological male, acts. If you think about how the straw hats live and breathe what they do (cook, navigator, shipwright) and the themes of dreams and living the life you want, you'll understand that Yamato is doing the exact same but rather than "surviving a grand line tornado makes me a better navigator", it's "doing this and perfecting this Oden detail makes me closer to who i want to be". Burn me at a stake, whatever. That's my take and falls thematically in line with the series over whatever the fuck I've been reading on twitter.
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The chapter was so interesting that 2 days into the break the discussion is already a couple dozens posts into Yamato pronouns, truly a classic for all seasons.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1084: The Attempted Murder of a Celestial Dragon:
Yamato and Kaido didn't really talk about this, yeah, but given how this comes from the same manga, I think it's still worth considering.
Man, seeing this page reminds me of something my friend proposed - Kuina and Zoro switching roles, so her trying to be the greatest AND defy her own idea that a girl "would be weaker than the boys", which adds more narrative weight. It'd be awesome.
Hell years ago I had found a fanfic where she was taking Zoro's spot on Luffy's crew (among other switches like Gin instead of Sanji and Kaya instead of Usopp), but can't remember the name.but oh well. sorry for the tangent lol
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@trollatron786 In a sane world, it wouldn't matter that much.
But with gender being a hot topic nowadays, that causes hot debate in science, politics and religion, people place themselves firmly in belief-based camps, and they don't get when their beliefs are challenged.
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hey, if Yamato doesn't fit in gender roles and break them, that makes him trans. Non-binary/gender conforming falls under the trans umbrella. Seems to be the point where Oda left him in the story rn.
