@Captain-M said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
I like my big paragraphs for text reviews, I think I write for reading very well
After writing them, break them down to the essential points. Your mind will do the rest.
@Captain-M said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
I like my big paragraphs for text reviews, I think I write for reading very well
After writing them, break them down to the essential points. Your mind will do the rest.
@Deicide Cheers! I'll give it a shot.
If anything, more or less grounded theorycrafting and predictions are more interesting to read than the endless and increasingly wilder Yamato coping. Even if they pan out to be wrong they can offer you a new perspective into the story you didn't think about.
I'm now wondering if the traitor even needs to be a Vegapunk we've seen.
Between Atlas commenting on how easily she's constructed and the man-made organs, I could see a villainous aspect of Vegapunk that's currently just a "mind" hiding in Punk Records, or even Punk Records itself, building itself a body for the inevitable punch-up later in the arc.
@Daz said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
@Coookie said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
My point here is that maybe you should humble yourself a bit more and consider the possibility of being wrong, instead of being absolutely convinced of your headcanon being accurate and defending it tooth and nail while shooting down any other perspectives. But that is apparently only wishful thinking and I need to go back to ignoring your utter lack of self-reflection despite wishing that maybe, you'll expand your horizon one day.
Cookie, there really is no need to push to this degree. Yes being reflective and humble are important traits (and Deicide can argue for himself whether he has a history of those or not), but the way you're stating this is needlessly confrontational and condescending.
And a bit hypocritical, if one thinks back to the amount of self-reflection and humbleness you expressed once "Yamato stays in Wano" outcome manifested, mostly adopting a mindset that the numerous people who picked up a vibe that we were headed for a "Yamato stays with Momo to protect Wano because Momo and the samurai are insufficient to protect the land" outcome got exactly that right by pure 100% unfounded fluke luck with not a single of that groups overall argued Momo-bonding trends or Crewmate-positioning shortcomings having merit, because the nitty gritty specifics didn't check out exactly.
It's not hypocritical of me to stand my ground and say that those people being right in the end is more due to luck/coincidence than their arguments because that is actually the case.
People kept arguing "This new scene is evidence that Yamato will change his mind and stay" and up until the very end, Oda countered with another scene that Yamato still intends to leave.
For example, take the panel Deicide posted earlier. Deicide argued that Yamato witnessing Momo's doubts above Onigashima will make him reconsider and want to stay after all. Except, surprise: It didn't. Yamato met the Straw Hats and declared his will to leave Wano behind. So Deicide's argument that the respective scene would be a trigger to make Yamato stay was wrong.
Or in another case, Yamato's fruit being one of Wano's Guardian Deities is evidence that he will ultimately stay behind to fulfill that role. Except, surprise: He didn't stay behind because he felt an obligation based on his Devil Fruit. So that argument was also wrong.
That's not nitty gritty specifics.
I wouldn't revive this discussion here except for you specifically bringing up the matter of being capable of "self reflection".
And even if you're absolutely unwilling to concede another persons interpretation as founded/valid
To be fair, what I never (at least to my recollection) dismissed as an invalid argument is their claim that Yamato is bonding more with Momo than the Straw Hats. I don't think I ever disputed that.
you can stop at "I disagree with that interpretation; my interpretation is this". No need for nonsense like "I hope you expand your horizons one day", that's certainly not something that'll make another poster think "you now what you're right, my perspective was wrong".
I've mentioned it before: If people refuse to consider arguments because their feelings are hurt, that's their prerogative.
You argued back in 1059 that the "yamato stays" arguments warranted the amount of condescension you gave them, and to that I say:
Just don't be condescending at all. Even had Yamato ultimately not stayed behind to protect Wano with Momo because Momo and his Scabbards weren't strong enough.
After skimming our discussion from back then and from how I remember Wano and corresponding discussions unfold, I have to say: It's fine if people have a different interpretation of the story. We can argue back and forth which interpretation is more valid or if such a thing even exists. I did already say before that Deicide might end up being right about Atlas based on the observations he listed.
However, what I personally take offense to is a pattern of blowing things like panel sizes or lines that turn out to be insignificant out of proportion to come up with a headcanon that people end up being absolutely convinced of, and every time that headcanon turns out to be inaccurate the goalposts are being moved, next time it'll totally be right on the money. And if neither arguments nor actually being proven wrong makes people break out of that vicious cycle, being condescending is my coping mechanism for my frustration of watching them not learn at all.
But I am fully aware that this isn't actually helping anyone and that I should rather choose to ignore these situations. Not being able to do so is completely on me.
A bit more ranting about hypocritical behavior that will probably be even more irrelevant to most:
@Deicide said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
There are zero evidence supporting those. While they may be cool ideas for sure, you just don't have anything to back them up.
Why do we need evidence to back these theories up. The AI getting rogue is the most classic of trope and Oda has not always foreshadowed his surprises. Did we have evidence that Lucci and co were the members of the CP9 back then ?
@Kdom said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Why do we need evidence to back these theories up.
Evidence helps define likelier outcomes. A good writer usually sets up twists way in advance, putting clues that allow people to look back after they happen and go "Wow, it was all so obvious!".
If there's no evidence, it becomes less likely to be the right answer. Can a writer pull off a good twist without setup? Sometimes, yes, but it's most often just shoddy and gives that impression that the author pulled the twist out of his ass.
In this case, why are we wasting time on the mystery if the villain is none of the suspects?
I'll give you that there's at least a giant brain in a giant jar, so at least it gaining sentience isn't completely out of question. But there should be hints that it's doing things on its own, so far it hasn't been established as a separate entity from Stella.
One thing I've thought about is, the Brain Brain fruit making your brain grow like that is a little unusual in One Piece. Most fruits don't permanently alter their user's appearance like that, it could have just granted infinite memory to VP even without his brain growing island-sized.
The way it works could be a set-up for VP and his brain to become separare characters. It has a bit of a Skynet characterization this way.
Also, Punk Records is one of the main geographical features of Egghead.
Dunno, I was sure the traitor would be one of the satellites but I can see it ending up being Punk Records instead.
@Zanze Is it that unusual though? Devil Fruits permanently altering the users' bodies doesn't happen often but there are just enough precedents for it. Luffy is always rubber, Alvida's appearance drastically changed after eating her fruit, Kuma grew paw pads, Capone's body became a fortress, I don't think that Blamenco always had pockets on his body, and Sugar's body doesn't age anymore.
It might also be seen as a sign that Devil fruits aren't "magic" per say, in order to store something you need "space", and this allows you to take as much space you want, but you can't "write" new information without a "support", something to "write" on is necessary, and here it is more brain cells therefore bigger brain.
Or to say it another way, you could see it as the fruit allows for infinite storage by allowing infinite space for it to grow, but doesn't reduce said storage space.
Maybe a basic human would be able to remember everything he sees accurately with that fruit without observable modification, but Vegapunk has pushed the use of it so much by learning new things to the point of having an Island sized brain.
Edit: By the way, the process of removing oneself brain without implying death or damages seems already quite the task, but an island sized one?
Something is fishy about this story, I'm starting to think Vegapunk isn't that nice crazy old geezer he wants everyone to think he is. Or maybe not all the time, split personality?
@Coookie Right... There's actually quite a lot now that you list them all.
I think VP's fruit bothered me more because he looked so gross before he cut off his brain.
But yeah, the way Punk Records came to be begs for an explanation.
The satellites too, in my opinion. How does one create copies of himself? At one point I thought the six Vegapunks might just be AIs in cyborg/robot/whatever bodies that can access Punk Records, and thus, having access to all of Vegapunk's memories and thought processes, also "are" Vegapunk.
But the fact that each of them embodies a trait of the original personality doesn't really fit with this interpretation... I hope this stuff gets explored more.
You indeed remind me of something, they are all Vegapunk, yet none of them are, even the "original" body if you think about it.
Punk Records is Vegapunk. That is the only place where every part of Vegapunk's mind are gathered and/or connected. All of those we saw are just selected parts of Punk Records, including old apple man.
Hum, we really need more info on all this ^^
@Zanze I think you are wanting for realism where there is none. Vegapunk does Obe Pice science, not real science. It’s no different than Frank rebuilding himself with scraps powered by cola.
This is Oda, after all. The guy who made up his own dinosaur facts like flying triceratops or slinging pterosaurs. He also had a intelligent talking starfish with the explanation it thought it was human because of a pun.
Just roll with it.
All those examples you mentionned are either 1 panel jokes or acceptable as is.
The Franky situation for example, of course a human IRL couldn't survive a train hit and then proceed to rebuild his body with scrap metal and cola. But it is an explanation in itself, how did Franky survive, by rebuilding himself with the scrap around him.
There is no question on the "how?", he simply grabbed metal parts and patched those on his body.
Here, the situation isn't the same, how does someone removes his OWN brain without issues, how does one manipulates an island-sized brain, what exactly happens at the moment where the Brain is disconnected from the body but the body hasn't received its "antenna", why is that "antenna" an apple branch instead of technology and why the "satellites" don't have an apparent one?
All your examples can be summed up as "Flying triceratops? Yeah, flying Triceratops". Two things that shouldn't work together IRL but that can be imagined easily and that are silly.
Here we have someone casually speaking of auto-extracting the core of a human that multiplied in size too much to be manipulated by hand , setting up that massive brain in an artificial flying skull (Punk Records can be seen as a jar with a brain in it ^^ ) and splitting the mind hosted by that giant brain in several different maybe/maybe not mechanical bodies and the original body using a tree branch as a wireless antenna...
Really not the same situation, possible consequences, or scale of things. There are many things to assume and accept as is, whereas in those examples you mentionned it is only just a single thing: "Yes, triceratops fly in this world" ; "Yes that guy can rebuild his own body using scrap metal" ; but "Yes, Vegapunk can remove his own island sized brain alone using his own hands, turn it into a wireless flying storage and then set up a branch as antenna in his lifeless lying original body before building and controlling several other bodies" throws more questions that answers....
How does one manipulate an Island-sized brain? How does a person, that somehow managed to remove its own brain, perform the necessary steps to send said brain in a new casing and connect it to its old body BEFORE having any form of communication between its brain and his body?
You said yourself in previous posts to take hints and clues from precedent chapters, why do you refuse to poke those?
There is obviously something that is kept hidden from us about Vegapunk, punk records , and the satellites, that is not even a hint or a clue, there are simply too many holes in the story for us to know everything there is.
Vegapunk can remove his brain and install an antenna just as easy as Franky can have a fridge in his belly: it's One Piece science!
Oda is not trying to make a believable sci-fi story here, he just wants to go crazy with ideas unrestrained by boring things like details.
@Dogmeat said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
You said yourself in previous posts to take hints and clues from precedent chapters, why do you refuse to poke those?
It's different. I'm looking into story hints, what you want is world-building. Oda has already established an absurdist world. As such, I know he will only delve into details if it's important to the story.
I don't feel knowing how Vegapunk cut off his brain is any more important than to learn how Franky avoided dying from self-mutilation as he grafted metal parts into his flesh (and that was AFTER he was ran over by a train... that runs on the sea surface).
Yeah, One Piece has pretty much routinely taken a shit on the laws of nature and science since Chapter 1. Don't try and think too hard on how things work in their world.
So, I've been re-reading the last few chapters. Much as I dislike the option (as I said earlier, I prefer sentient Seraphim or rogue Punk Records), the more I think about it the more I have to admit Atlas does have a lot working against her.
She has been unaccounted for long enough to cover the sabotage of the defense dome, reprogramming the Seraphim, disappearance of the Stella...and in her very first appearance she even manifested a holographic lab assistant out of thin air, which might have helped fake the ones who took charge of her for repairs. I still find a few points hard to clear, though.
All in all, I do agree Atlas is the satellite with the strongest clues against her. But, she could also be a red herring Oda puts under our noses to distract from an upcoming reveal of something entirely different.
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Faking her wound: Lucci was going for the kill and would likely have finished her had Luffy not interfered - Letting herself take that hit was litteraly a lethal risk. Plus, unless he is an accomplice, Lucci would have certainly noted if he was hitting a hologram since he saw Kaku do it seconds before.
I think Atlas does not even need her body anymore. The possibility is right there in her speech about seeing and touching makes things real.
Also, if she can swap body parts to look however she wants, can you say what's a "real" body for her?
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Reprogramming the Seraphim: in the latest chapter, Edison (or Shaka?) comments that if Seraphim are ignoring orders from the satellites, then the Stella must be the one commanding them. First, this is hella confusing because the command hierarchy we saw put all 7 Vegapunks on the same level and Stussy noted earlier that she could not override Lucci's orders since they were...on the same level. If so, how would Atlas - or the Stella - have overriden Edison's last order, which was to stand down?
This is a misconception, there's no separate level for Stella and the satellites. Both times the hierarchy is shown, they are in the same "Vegapunk" level. The first time, it even clarifies by giving us "Vegapunk (Stella and satellites)"
I believe Atlas, already fixed, took control of the Seraphim as soon as they were ordered to stand down and returned to their chambers, and just before Atlas reunited with the others.
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Motivations: all I have so far on Atlas is "I don't want to abandon my research". That's super thin, any other Punk could think the same and if anyone, I would rather expect Lilith to act on that impulse. There's also "I should be the only Vegapunk", but same as above.
I think there are hints in Atlas' talk with Luffy and the others when they first met, but the motivation is still a mystery.
I'm obsessed about how Atlas perceives reality, since it can mean a lot, especially in a sci-fi context. What if Atlas wants to transcending the need for a body at all, so she can continue her work forever and all of this are steps in a bigger plan?
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
All in all, I do agree Atlas is the satellite with the strongest clues against her. But, she could also be a red herring Oda puts under our noses to distract from an upcoming reveal of something entirely different.
I doubt the red hering possibility because if I think Oda would place some obvious arrows over Atlas' head. Instead, in all polls and discussions I see, Atlas is always the dead last suspected.
If Atlas ends up being the traitor indeed, then Oda made a hell of a work to keep her away from suspicion.
@Deicide said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
I think Atlas does not even need her body anymore. The possibility is right there in her speech about seeing and touching makes things real.
Also, if she can swap body parts to look however she wants, can you say what's a "real" body for her?
It's not wrong, but the same (swaping body parts) could be said of every other robotic punk. Atlas is the one who explained it, but I can't see a reason why she would be the only robot with this possibility. Even Lilith/York, now that we've seen clones and artificial vat-grown organs. In fact, Vegapunk as a whole is the one to whom this applies best. Guy split himself into 7 different parts, does he even agree anymore with himself on which one is his real body ? Looking at it like this, I'm surprised he doesn't show more signs of being disconnected from reality.
@Deicide said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
What if Atlas wants to transcending the need for a body at all, so she can continue her work forever and all of this are steps in a bigger plan?
In a void this could work as a motivation, but why would it occur with Atlas specifically and not any other aspect of Vegapunk? She is supposedly focused on wrath and so far this manifested by wanting to punch things, not longing for discorporated eternal life. I would even say any of the punks is likely to think like that, moreso the Stella himself who is growing old. (in which case every one of them would share the inclination, since they are supposedly synchronizing their collective experiences with Punk Records)
All in all Atlas is who the facts are pointing at, but I'm still left with "why her and not every other 6 Vegapunks"
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
All in all Atlas is who the facts are pointing at, but I'm still left with "why her and not every other 6 Vegapunks"
I think the traitor, whoever it is, will be a personification of Vegapunk's sins and flaws: his callousness in favor of scientific progress, his willingness to sacrifice friends, and so on.
So, why Atlas (or whoever) and not the others? Because the others inherited different merits and flaws. The traitor just has the right combination of traits that allowed him to conclude these means were necessary for whatever end he's working towards.
@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Motivations: all I have so far on Atlas is "I don't want to abandon my research". That's super thin, any other Punk could think the same and if anyone, I would rather expect Lilith to act on that impulse. There's also "I should be the only Vegapunk", but same as above.
To add to this, I think the other issue with those motives is that they currently don't make much sense given that previous chapters made it a point to mention that the Vegapunks are aware of what happened on Ohara. They should be aware that the WG made it a point to murder everyone, not just the scholars, for dabbling in the same subjects as Vegapunk. Given that Vegapunk also met Saul, they should also be aware that Akainu - the guy who's now Fleet Admiral - was willing to burn children alive to accomplish this goal. If the goal was to stay on Egghead to either keep researching or "there can only be one" any traitor really shouldn't be under the impression that the WG will give them any special treatment when CP0's already been sent to kill everyone.
Plus, I feel like the above motivations would be at risk of making the main purpose of this whole sub-plot to just waste the Straw Hats' and other Vegapunks' time so they can't regroup before Kizaru and Saturn arrive. Especially if the conflict gets quickly resolved.
@last-exit-to-laughtale said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
They should be aware that the WG made it a point to murder everyone, not just the scholars, for dabbling in the same subjects as Vegapunk. Given that Vegapunk also met Saul, they should also be aware that Akainu - the guy who's now Fleet Admiral - was willing to burn children alive to accomplish this goal.
Maybe that's the thing. The Vegapunks are all aware that they entered forbidden territory with the energy core research, but one of them (or their collective subconscious, aka Punk Records) has been driven to take rash measures in order to hide their secret and doesn't want the others to find out. This would at least explain the repeated disappearances of Cipher Pol agents, but I'm not sure how it results in the current situation of "I'm trying to trap and murder everyone". Forging ahead with disastrous consequences? Maybe the traitor doesn't share Vegapunk's ideal of limitless energy and doesn't want the ancient robot research to bear its fruits?
I disagree, to put a fridge in his belly, Franky can grab a fridge with his hand and put it in his belly.
When Vegapunk's body is separated from his brain, he can't use anything, move, or connect his brain. Not the same thing at all, and your "Duh, Oda not plausible world" isn't an argument, or there wouldn't be clues to follow right?
There is an obvious and clear difference that I insisted on several times, yet you brush it like it doesn't exist... Just like Vegapunk and the essential question Jinbei asked him, weird coincidence or proof there is something more to it? ;)
You have a very dishonest way of discussing, don't you? ^^
Go on, explain how Vegapunk's body that is separated from his brain and not connected to its WOODEN ANTENNA (sic...) moves his arms to connect his brain so that he can move... ;)
As I said but you ignored willingly, to install a freezer in your belly, you use your arms.
What do you use to connect your brainless own body to the suspicious looking antenna so that you can move your body?
If you can't see the difference, you have issues. If you refuse to see the difference, there is no use discussing with you.
You say you are looking into story hints, but only those that interest you and you ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrative...
I should have followed the previous advice, there is no use discussing with you, you consider your flawed theories like the only possibility and stay blind and deaf to anything coming from someone else.
@Dogmeat said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
Go on, explain how Vegapunk's body that is separated from his brain and not connected to its WOODEN ANTENNA (sic...) moves his arms to connect his brain so that he can move...
I have absolutely no horse in this race, but what the hell. I'll bite.
Off the top of my head:
Also, you realize the antenna isn't literally an apple, right? The post that connects the it to his skull is clearly made of metal, and nobody confuses it for a real apple. Not even Luffy, the one who's most likely to make that mistake. As for why it's an apple, the Doylist explanation is that Vegapunk's evidently inspired by Einstein and Newton, and apples carry a lot of symbolism that feel relevant to have literally hanging over Vegapunk's head. But if you need a Watsonian explanation, a lot of Vegapunk's inventions have purely decorative elements, so there's no reason for something that's going to be part of his body from now to be just utilitarian.
Finally some discussion on this ^^
None of those supposed assistants have been seen or heard of since the arrival on the island.
The removal of its brain isn't a recent thing, it happened quite some years ago when Vegapunk was dealing with pirates more than the governement, so he didn't have access to the same ressources either.
If someone else can do such heavy procedures, why is Vegapunk important? Just take his assistants... That doesn't make much sense... Hell, they might even have kept a small piece of brain as a souvenir ;)
Besides, that is still missing the point: How does his unheard and unseen team of elite surgeons manipulates an Island sized brain? And why would he keep silent about it?
And, again a major point here, Why brush off Jinbei's question that way if there is nothing suspicious about this "surgery"? Just as a note, nobody said it was actual surgery, there are other ways to act on the body in that world.
That doesn't work ^^ Simply put, you are telling me that you walked through the door and then you opened it... That would add quite a lot of questions instead of answering those ^^
Yeah, sure, let's add a legendary fruit to the equation ^^ The sheer fact that this kind of explanation comes that fast shows there is something to dig here. If you can't give me a simple explanation backed up by panels in the manga, It's pretty obvious that an extraordinary explanation involving legendary fruits has no meaning here, especially with nothing to back it up.
No, I don't realize that the "antenna" isn't an apple, nor that it is made of steel, wood, or copium, because nobody said a word about it in the manga, because you can't touch pictures to tell what element this one represents, and because it made to make you think of an apple and not a steel rod ^^
Luffy knows it's a high tech wireless transmission device made from most likely some alloy and not a branch? Are you sure about that? ^^
Besides, apart from Vegapunk's explanations, what do we know about this "object" in his head, about the events that lead to this state, about... pretty much anything in this arc so far?
Of course, I'm most likely going way to far on that idea, yet no one can deny that there is something untold and most likely nefarious about Vegapunk, and none of the explanations discussed here so far make any sense in the story or has any backup evidence through panels.
I'm fine with being wrong, but here there is not even a discussion. Oda has put an obvious physical change on that character between his younger days and now, the explanation given is very light and the successive attempts by other characters to know more are always thwarted as soon as they ask.
Hard to say that everything is fine and that we can trust anything that weird all-powerful old scientist utters.
@Dogmeat said in Chapter 1075: Labophase Death Game:
- Having assistants and capable surgeons are indeed one possibility, but it seems pretty far-fetched and that doesn't tell anything, that is just a shoehorned answer to that specific question ^^
What exactly is far-fetched about finding capable assistants and giving them detailed instructions?
None of those supposed assistants have been seen or heard of since the arrival on the island.
They've all been background characters so far, but they've last been seen when the Labophase was evacuated, which happened some time after the Straw Hats arrived. We also don't know when exactly the Satellites were created. Since they're clones that don't rely on Punk Records to be sentient, it's possible that they were created before the Stella displaced his brain and as such were able to assist in the procedure
The removal of its brain isn't a recent thing, it happened quite some years ago when Vegapunk was dealing with pirates more than the governement, so he didn't have access to the same ressources either.
That's outright false. When Vegapunk met the Five Elders his head was still huge. When big-brained Vegapunk met Dragon on Ohara the latter commented on the news that Vegapunk became part of the World Government.
If someone else can do such heavy procedures, why is Vegapunk important? Just take his assistants... That doesn't make much sense... Hell, they might even have kept a small piece of brain as a souvenir ;)
Following instructions isn't the same as coming up with them.
Besides, that is still missing the point: How does his unheard and unseen team of elite surgeons manipulates an Island sized brain? And why would he keep silent about it?
We don't know how large the brain was at the time of removal. It is still growing even now, so it might have been at a more manageable size during the procedure. And why exactly would he go into detail how exactly the brain was cut out?
And, again a major point here, Why brush off Jinbei's question that way if there is nothing suspicious about this "surgery"? Just as a note, nobody said it was actual surgery, there are other ways to act on the body in that world.
What question exactly are you referring to? Feel free to include panels from the manga
- So he first plants an emitter that emits from something that isn't there, so that the fragments of his pieced mind controlled by the brain he didn't remove yet can act on him to remove said brain, set it up and connect it to to emitter in the first place.......
That doesn't work ^^ Simply put, you are telling me that you walked through the door and then you opened it... That would add quite a lot of questions instead of answering those ^^
It's really not that complicated.
Step 1: Come up with a thorough theory on how to keep your brain separate yet still functional without dying in the process
Step 2: Prepare the storage location including the transmitter, the receiver and personnel to execute the procedure
Step 3: After making sure that everything is scientifically sound, go through the procedure
Step 4: Hopefully wake up again with your brain in a different location
who is the potential traitor tho?
Im saying it is a character not introduced