@Alfiere Finally they might be more than just needless information dump devices.
Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy
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Remember, remember, the 5th of November
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@Kdom It could imply that, but I personally interpreted it more along the lines of "It's most regrettable that Vegapunk betrayed us" and not "it's most regrettable that we have been ordered to kill him"
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It's just my two cents but the Five Elders were also "regretful" about the order they were about to give when they decided to blow Ohata to smithereens. Then 20 something years later you see them casually talk about great cleansings and erasing lights from history. They even destroy an entire island very casually.
They're just hypocrites, just like most of the Navy's upper echelons. Maybe something will come out of Saturn and Vegapunk having met each other but in general I wouldn't read too much into the stuff they tell themselves.
Love to hate them, though. -
@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
They even destroy an entire island very casually.
Is it casual? That's not at all how I read 1060. They seem regretful at what fate has made inevitable. This not because of what they can do, but because of what Imu can do. This is also why I think that the power that wiped out Lulusia isn't something that can be put to use on any island, but as specific targets and/or limits.
And I don't think their discussion about extinguishing lights was casual. Their faces are darkened and in supplication. They always discuss things like this in terms of keeping the balance, never flippantly.
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Also seeing as how that island getting blasted looked more to be Imu's doing (it was the orbital laser from Yakuza 7 instead of a Buster Call), the Elder Stars probably had no say in the matter.
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A very generous reading could make an argument that elder star guy was hoping to maybe give clover an out so he doesn't go and sentances himself to death.
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@andre said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
And I don't think their discussion about extinguishing lights was casual. Their faces are darkened and in supplication. They always discuss things like this in terms of keeping the balance, never flippantly.
That's the thing, though. I'm sure that, unlike the average Celestial Dragon, they fully understand the weight of certain decisions and that's why they always express regret for what they're about to do.
But ultimately they don't take those decisions for any greater good. Keeping the balance just means keeping in place the power structure that has them on top and protects them (and that originates lots and lots of pain, via slavery and the heavenly tributes among other things). Vegapunk and the Ohara archeologists didn't even enter their kill list because of something they did, just because of something they maybe could know... And they keep doing this kind of stuff. If they regretted it that much, you'd think they would stop.As for Imu, yeah. It could be that he takes some decisions in spite of what the Elders think. But in the great cleansing scene, for example, it's the Elders that go to him to basically get told who they need to kill, not the other way around - and that happens right after they said between the lines that they kinda want to kill Cobra. And after all, unless Imu has some kind of enormous bargaining chip, they are the ones who keep him in power.
I don't know... I don't really see them as conflicted characters. -
@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
That's the thing, though. I'm sure that, unlike the average Celestial Dragon, they fully understand the weight of certain decisions and that's why they always express regret for what they're about to do.
But ultimately they don't take those decisions for any greater good. Keeping the balance just means keeping in place the power structure that has them on top and protects them (and that originates lots and lots of pain, via slavery and the heavenly tributes among other things). Vegapunk and the Ohara archeologists didn't even enter their kill list because of something they did, just because of something they maybe could know... And they keep doing this kind of stuff. If they regretted it that much, you'd think they would stop.That's still not casual. They regret that they have to kill these people. One can regret what needs to be done and still understand the necessity to do it. They seem to see the greater good that they're protecting as more important than whatever any of us think should replace it, probably because of the knowledge they have of what replaced it before they were in place. Their use of slavery is abhorrent and unjustifiable, but they aren't without a desire for progress. Indeed, they lament Jinbe's betrayal so much because they saw him as a force of good towards their relationship with fishmen.
As for Imu, yeah. It could be that he takes some decisions in spite of what the Elders think. But in the great cleansing scene, for example, it's the Elders that go to him to basically get told who they need to kill, not the other way around - and that happens right after they said between the lines that they kinda want to kill Cobra. And after all, unless Imu has some kind of enormous bargaining chip, they are the ones who keep him in power.
I read this as a tradition that they do when they feel the balance of the world is threatened from various different angles. And Cobra is brought up because they believe he has some things to bring up during the reverie, in the context of, again, them discussing the overall balance, and hoping he doesn't attempt to threaten it, while bringing up his heritage as a traitor. I don't buy that they keep him in power. They kneel to Imu and Imuseems to possess a weapon strong enough to destroy entire islands. Nothing suggests to me that Imu needs to stand on their shoulders.
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@flandrian15 said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Alfiere Finally they might be more than just needless information dump devices.
I don't know, information dumping is kind of this arc whole theme so far. He may be on his way to show the kids how it's done proper.
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One interesting thing to note that elder planets in front of Imu-very genocidal, elder planets not in front of Imu-Kinda somber and regretful.
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It's one of those things where i think why even give them the apperance of regret, if you are not planning to do something with it
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We are getting the chapter this week right?
人事を尽くして天命を待つ
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For some reason I thought we do and next week is break.
人事を尽くして天命を待つ
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Looks like Marco is coming back into the Story, awesome
I wonder when we’ll get to see Jozu again?
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Whether they regret their actions or not is irrelevant to the fact that they do them anyway. The final order for destroying Ohara was their own call. Whether or not you feel bad doesn’t mean much to your victims. At best, it just means they aren’t complete one-dimensional monsters, which is good but… Imu has completely negated that by being the true head honcho of the WG. Personally, I would hate if it turned out the Elders only did these horrible things because they were trying to protect the world from a far more vicious Imu. Because that would be a really awful attempt at generating sympathy; kind of like how things are with Weevil at the moment.
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I'm not a huge fan of it either. But you kind of read their obsession with the upholding the balance differently when you now know that ultimately they are trying to keep an island nuking creature from below happy. Does the balance matter to Imu? Or is toppling the balance leaving Imu at risk of being found out causing him to lash out? Either way the way the elder scouts act suggest they carry out acts they do not enjoy but see as neccesary, so a scenario where they aren't into evil for evil doesn't feel like too much of a reach
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@Bugs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Whether they regret their actions or not is irrelevant to the fact that they do them anyway. The final order for destroying Ohara was their own call. Whether or not you feel bad doesn’t mean much to your victims. At best, it just means they aren’t complete one-dimensional monsters, which is good but… Imu has completely negated that by being the true head honcho of the WG. Personally, I would hate if it turned out the Elders only did these horrible things because they were trying to protect the world from a far more vicious Imu. Because that would be a really awful attempt at generating sympathy; kind of like how things are with Weevil at the moment.
Speaking of Imu, the anime intro has been showing Rocks D. Xebec. I really hope, Really HOPE that Imu is not Xebec. It would really devalue the story for me. I want Imu to be long lived or immortal that was there during the Void Century, he needs this type of gravitas.
The fact that they are showing Xebec on the anime, makes me think that he will make an appearance and I’m ok with that just as long as he’s not Imu. Xebec has indeed great grandeur and gravitas but not enough to be the main honcho specially now that Luffy is the Joyboy.
To combat the Joyboy from the void century, you need another void Century combatant. -
So Lilith, Bonney, and Stussy are going to be sailing on the Sunny? This just keeps getting better and better!
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Are we gonna get more Rocks Pirates clones?
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@andre said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
That's still not casual. They regret that they have to kill these people. One can regret what needs to be done and still understand the necessity to do it. They seem to see the greater good that they're protecting as more important than whatever any of us think should replace it, probably because of the knowledge they have of what replaced it before they were in place. Their use of slavery is abhorrent and unjustifiable, but they aren't without a desire for progress. Indeed, they lament Jinbe's betrayal so much because they saw him as a force of good towards their relationship with fishmen.
I see your point, but I just think there's too big of a disproportion between the regret they express and the mass killings / genocides / witch hunts that they regularly commission.
Like sure, the idea of blowing up Lulusia did probably come from Imu, but the only comment the Elders made was that they were happy Sabo also happened to be there. Plus there was Ohara, and the whole mass killing of children in the womb just in case one of those was Roger's son... I mean they're not exactly "casual" but these are all extreme, exaggerated reactions compared to the threats they were supposedly preventing.
They might do all of that stuff for the greater good, but the fact that the greater good is also supposed to be their own power system where they have all those absurd priviliges is a bit suspicious.
Even the balance of the world is just something they keep in place mostly to prevent another Joy Boy / Roger from showing up to destroy their government.As for Imu, yeah we don't know much and mostly have to assume so it's up to personal interpretation.
I assume that he's immortal, actually comes from the Void Century and, in spite of his existence being hidden, he's actually the rightful king. I also assume that, unless he completely breaks any and all power levels in One Piece, sending Akainu and the three admirals to dispose of him should be more than enough unless he uses his weapon to blow up Marijoa with himself in it... So, in my reading, the Elders want to keep him in there. He might even be an asset, like he seems to have some divinatory powers or something like that. He knows Luffy, Blackbeard and Vivi somehow are the biggest threats to the WG.
This is 100% a personal reading, though. Things could actually be very different. It's just, I really haven't gotten the vibe that Imu and the Elders don't play in the exact same team. -
I really wonder how the arc is gonna play out with gorosei there it means that the seraphim now are naturally going to become enemy again , and also there is a traitor amongst the punks ? given the defense was shot down , i suspect it is shaka not any logical reason it is just that he makes me feel uneasy.
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@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
but the only comment the Elders made was that they were happy Sabo also happened to be there.
I legitimately don't understand how you can read that into it. They don't say they're happy or act happy. As they're listening in and realize he's in Lulusia, they seem taken aback that he's there in the first place. One of them says he's unlucky and another says it's just fate. What are you reading that makes you think they're happy? It's chapter 1060 for reference.
@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
I also assume that, unless he completely breaks any and all power levels in One Piece, sending Akainu and the three admirals to dispose of him should be more than enough unless he uses his weapon to blow up Marijoa with himself in it... So, in my reading, the Elders want to keep him in there.
And that's where you lose me. I don't think we know anywhere near enough to make this judgment.
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@firelord111 said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
I really wonder how the arc is gonna play out with gorosei there it means that the seraphim now are naturally going to become enemy again , and also there is a traitor amongst the punks ? given the defense was shot down , i suspect it is shaka not any logical reason it is just that he makes me feel uneasy.
Said this in the previous thread too, Shaka is sus. We don't see his face meaning even he just has a helmet for head, a real person could still impersonate him. Not to mention that since he's 'the Good', nobody would doublecheck what he's doing on the consoles. He could pretty much shut down everything when nobody is looking and then draw attention to him trying to fix this immediately. I don't trust the guy one bit.
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@Ivotas the defenses going down is still suspect to a degree. But now we know Stussy was the double agent all along, I could see it being a maneuver from the Punks to trap the top CP0 agents away from their troops and make them vulnerable. Hell, she suggested this herself, the irony... Whichever of them took down the laser grid would have made their move in secrecy so as to preserve her cover for as long as possible (including from the reader).
That the Seraphims followed into the labostratum would then be an unfortunate coincidence, nothing more. -
@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
unless he completely breaks any and all power levels in One Piece,
I mean that is generally what end villains in shounen do
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@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Ivotas the defenses going down is still suspect to a degree. But now we know Stussy was the double agent all along, I could see it being a maneuver from the Punks to trap the top CP0 agents away from their troops and make them vulnerable. Hell, she suggested this herself, the irony... Whichever of them took down the laser grid would have made their move in secrecy so as to preserve her cover for as long as possible (including from the reader).
That the Seraphims followed into the labostratum would then be an unfortunate coincidence, nothing more.Nah, it's Shaka I tell you. Get out with your explenation that actually makes sense!
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I know it's so cliche, but I hope Sailor Saturn actually came to fight. The Seraphim and Kizaru are just there to watch and ehhh~~~ at the carnage.
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@andre said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Zanze said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
but the only comment the Elders made was that they were happy Sabo also happened to be there.
I legitimately don't understand how you can read that into it. They don't say they're happy or act happy. As they're listening in and realize he's in Lulusia, they seem taken aback that he's there in the first place. One of them says he's unlucky and another says it's just fate. What are you reading that makes you think they're happy? It's chapter 1060 for reference.
Again, "happy" is a bit of a strong word, but... Sorry if this is going to get long.
I think destroying Lulusia was a very disproportionate reaction. It was just an island where a coup happened. They didn't even potentially hold earth-shattering secrets like the Ohara archeologists.
The WG could just have sent the military to put the members of the new government into jail and restaurate the old one, instead of literally erasing the island from history and killing everyone who was in it (even people who might still have been pro-WG). Can't even use it as en example against rebellious nations because I think they'd like to keep Uranus or whatever that weapon is a secret.To keep it short, the Elders' only comment about such senseless bloodshed pretty much amounting to "Hey Sabo was also there, we're getting two birds with one stone!" didn't paint them as characters who particularly care about this kind of stuff, at least to me.
Maybe they really were unhappy about what happened and Oda wants to keep eventual conflicts between the Elders and Imu as a surprise, but as of now their wills look pretty much 1:1 in my opinion. -
@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Are we gonna get more Rocks Pirates clones?
Maybe if Bonney and Yamato turn out to be failed clones of Big Mom and Kaido, but maybe that's too ridiculous for Oda to do.
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@Zanze
My reading of 1006 is that Lulusia was an island that, either because of something in the far past or their rebellion, had the means of their destruction in place. Maybe they would have been destroyed if they continued their rebellion against the World Government after some sort of warning? Hard to say. Anyway, what isn't hard to understand IMO is that Sabo's knowledge of Imu is seemingly as severe a threat in the WG's eyes as Clover's knowledge of the Void Century and the name of the Ancient Kingdom. The entire pretense of what the WG is could crumble with that information, especially in the hands of the Revolutionaries. So they destroyed the entire country because the preparations were in place and Sabo was that much of a threat in their eyes.The idea of their ultimate will being 1:1 with Imu doesn't change that they struggle with such an assignment. If you're writing a Hitler character, even they should have some complexity, and I think the Elders have been presented as having such.
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Personally i don't think the outer senshi even possess the means to stop Imu from un-island:ing whatever he wants whenever he wants. My guess is that they prefer to do the deeds using the WG because their way is less destructive than the Imu way.
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We can't judge all the elders as one single mind, AFAIK they show different reactions between themselves in each situation. I need to check out every instance, but I think there's some degree of consistency there. My memory may be faulty, but Saturn is the one that often inspired sympathy on me, because their decisions seem to pain him. On the other side of the coin, the Gandhi-looking sword-guy seems to be the most merciless.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Deicide said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
On the other side of the coin, the Gandhi-looking sword-guy seems to be the most merciless.
Well, that's ironic.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Are we gonna get more Rocks Pirates clones?
Maybe if Bonney and Yamato turn out to be failed clones of Big Mom and Kaido, but maybe that's too ridiculous for Oda to do.
I like the idea of Jewelry Bonney being a Big Mom clone, she has the appetite and the pink hair
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@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Are we gonna get more Rocks Pirates clones?
Maybe if Bonney and Yamato turn out to be failed clones of Big Mom and Kaido, but maybe that's too ridiculous for Oda to do.
I like the idea of Jewelry Bonney being a Big Mom clone, she has the appetite and the pink hair
Bonney’s ship is also apparently a modified ship stolen from Big Mom, which is also suspect.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
@Shiebs said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Are we gonna get more Rocks Pirates clones?
Maybe if Bonney and Yamato turn out to be failed clones of Big Mom and Kaido, but maybe that's too ridiculous for Oda to do.
I like the idea of Jewelry Bonney being a Big Mom clone, she has the appetite and the pink hair
Bonney’s ship is also apparently a modified ship stolen from Big Mom, which is also suspect.
Oh damn didn’t even think of that
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Bonney doesn't resemble the young Big Mum at all and she doesn't have her inhuman strength. It is funny how people criticizes that we will have clones everywhere but still likes to invent them anyway
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Bonney’s ship is also apparently a modified ship stolen from Big Mom, which is also suspect.
What, says who?
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@SirCaesar Yeah I know, still doesn’t mean that it’s stolen from Big Mom… Her epithet is Big Eater, her favourite food is Pizza… that’s what the ship represents.
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Still no Moria? How long can Oda get away with this? Pretty disgusting how we only got 2 Moria panels during the average Kaido Arc.
Moria the Great…
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@BekaDidAct said in Chapter 1073: Miss Buckingham Stussy:
Still no Moria? How long can Oda get away with this? Pretty disgusting how we only got 2 Moria panels during the average Kaido Arc.
Even worse if you consider there is a second chibi Moria now. Double the Moria, none the screen time.
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The existence of the remaining Warlords' Seraphim versions is still unconfirmed though
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@Coookie I don't think there are more.
From a storytelling perspective, I feel the Seraphim are meant to represent the Warlords that the crew wouldn't fight anyway (thought Mihawk is debatable), so it's a way of showing how they'd fare against the crew.
From a in-story perspective, there are probably reasons why there aren't more of them. Maybe:
- There was just no time and money for more
- Doflamingo's may have been veto'ed because he has celestial blood.
- Moria may have been considered too weak and not worth the effort
- Crocodile may have been discarded because they couldn't replicate his logia power, and giving a clone anything else would potentially be subpar, as a fast-grown clone wouldn't have "genetic memory" to use it properly.
