Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain

Daz

It’s been a while since I posted one of these, and it’s been a few months since Wanos conclusion, but the holiday season chapter drought is upon us so what the heck, why not bring it back I thought.

That is to say: After more than four years and almost 150 chapters the Wano arc has finally concluded, as well as the larger “Big Mom/Kaidou” saga, spanning plotlines as far back as Fishman Island and Punk Hazard. And while we have “general Wano“ discussion for Macro arc takes, I thought it’d be interesting to have threads dedicated wholly to particular plotthreads.

In this case, with Orochi and the effectiveness of him as a character getting his own recent thread, I thought it fitting to have a dedicated discussion of who ultimately was the biggest baddest endgame obstacle of this entire saga – or at the very least from Punk Hazard through Wano – namely Kaidou himself. Introduced falling from the sky in an attempt to kill himself and last seen getting punched into a volcano as he reminisced about wanting to overthrow aristocratic power structures theres’ a lot to talk about with the guy, from his ties to Orochi to his history with Yamato.

And so, whether or not you believe him to be for really real gone for good or not, what did you make of his tenure as a Saga Villain? How did you feel he stacked up? Did you find his motives/goals/personality compelling? What about the fight itself? As said, theres a lot to discuss!

Gizmo

There’s more I want to say but it’s been a bit and I should really reread Wano to get a proper feel for it., I will say I always felt he got muddled with Orochi as the main villain of Wano. Orochi got to much focus for what he ultimately ended up being, though it could also be due to how his character was handled by the end.

electricmastro

Somewhat compelling, but I felt he ultimately got pushed aside, along with his wild macho daughter, so as to focus more on Momo and him rising up so he's shogun instead of Orochi. His fight with Luffy was also kinda repetitive until Luffy pulled out his whipped cream hair of course, but even that felt short-lived.

I find his effort and determination somewhat compelling, but not more so since I'm left kinda confused by what exactly he was trying to accomplish and why he was doing it in the first place. I suppose some may say it doesn't matter, but after Big Mom was shown mourning over Carmel whom died in her life and cared for Carmel enough to be inspired by her supposed desire to create a society of equals, it leaves Kaido's emotionless flashback all the more hollow.

wolfwood

Big guy, big club, small personality. Got beaten up with a punch to the face without hardly revealing anything about himself or what made him tick. I found him pretty entertaining in his simplicity

electricmastro

@wolfwood said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

Big guy, big club, small personality. Got beaten up with a punch to the face without hardly revealing anything about himself or what made him tick. I found him pretty entertaining in his simplicity

Yeah, like the flashback didn’t really make it clear who the “Carmel” was in his life, or if he never had one, and that not even Rocks filled that surrogate role.

.access timeco.

I really like Kaido, but still he was a disappointment.

Even though I am not a big fan of post-ts OP as much as the early portions, one thing I think Oda kept excelling at was the "final boss" category. Big Mom, Caesar and Doflamingo are all among my favorite characters and Hody is also one that I thought was greatly executed (unfortunately, in his case, good execution meant he had to be devoid of any charisma or substance, so it's impossible to like him as a character).
I kept expecting the chapter when Kaido would get the moment that would make him go from "cool villain" to "amazing character", or a flashback that would tie every little detail and personality trait into a cohesive round character like Big Mom's did to her, but that simply never came.
To be honest, his flashback did successfully explained his character, if you are willing to look between the lines, and made him round and neat. And considering how short it was, it actually did a great job. But at the end, he still came out as rather shallow and too similar to so many characters we had in other manga.

I still like and fully enjoyed him, but just not on the level I hoped to. In the end he ended up closer to a Lucci than to a Linlin in my list.

.

As for his future, I have no doubt he and Big Mom will be paired 100% of the time going on and will exist as a duo the entire time; so portrayal, role and fate will be share by both (that being: surprise allies that will appear to support Luffy's side on the final war against the Marine/WG).
I doubt we'll see them until the final arc, though. My guess is the volcano eruption shot them miles away from Wano, they magically landed on the Queen Chanter as it was leaving, and will spend the next weeks recovering in secrecy at WCI (where Kaido will convince Big Mom to leave the past behind, remember what they once fought for and aid Joy Boy at the end).

onemoment

I love Kaido as a rival. A giant brute that ignores damage and can one-hit KO even Luffy is a neat change of pace after 25 years of One Piece villians. He really did match the level of what an Emperor should be, that is, a man that defines normal conventions of strength.

But, I really feel like his character was incomplete after Wano ended, and I'm assuming it might be more complete after the Rocks Pirates flashback--which is actually a huge flaw in a years long arc. Like, why did he want Wano? Why exactly was he so depressed? We have plenty of reasons to assume, but I don't think it's ever directly mentioned. Sure, at the last second we learned that his home nation sold him out---but that's like nothing. It was one of the worst last-second villian flashback I've seen--it really didn't expand anything.

electricmastro

@onemoment said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

I love Kaido as a rival. A giant brute that ignores damage and can one-hit KO even Luffy is a neat change of pace after 25 years of One Piece villians. He really did match the level of what an Emperor should be, that is, a man that defines normal conventions of strength.

But, I really feel like his character was incomplete after Wano ended, and I'm assuming it might be more complete after the Rocks Pirates flashback--which is actually a huge flaw in a years long arc. Like, why did he want Wano? Why exactly was he so depressed? We have plenty of reasons to assume, but I don't think it's ever directly mentioned. Sure, at the last second we learned that his home nation sold him out---but that's like nothing. It was one of the worst last-second villian flashback I've seen--it really didn't expand anything.

He mentioned he wanted the ancient weapons to start eh biggest war possible, but how much exactly that correlated with him wanting Wano is unknown to me. It does paint a picture that he did some things to Yamato because if things done to him I figure, like the chains and use people as a means to an end.

Shiebs

Is there any chance of Kaido and Big Mom returning?

Especially if Rocks D Xebec comes back into the story?

electricmastro

@Shiebs said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

Is there any chance of Kaido and Big Mom returning?

Especially if Rocks D Xebec comes back into the story?

How is there not a chance of them returning? If Buggy, Mr. 3, Bon Clay, Alvida, etc. can come back, then why not them?

Alfiere

Kaido isn't a villain. Villains are characters. Kaido is a plot device.

aku-chan

I think he had potential, but ultimately ended up a fairly shallow character thanks to the muddle that was the Wano Arc and the rush to get it done.
However, he did do a decent job acting as a big roadblock on Luffy's journey, so if that's all he ultimately amounts to, that's not too bad.

I would like to see him return and get fleshed out though, or have a zombified version serve as Moriahs mount in the final battle, either is good.

MetaMario

I need to properly finish Wano (I just know broad strokes). But one thing I am puzzled is if there's some connection between his introduction, a guy trying to off himself, to....angry dragon fight man. Like is it a change in attitude or just slight inconsistency.

cavendishsama

@MetaMario Kaido wants a spectacular death, that is a consistent element of his character.

spoiler

Seafarer33

Kaido ? Good opportunity, I re-read Wano last month.
Short version : Wolfwood said it best. Big guy, big club, small personalily. His brightest moment was definitely his introduction, afterwards it only went downhill.

The revelation chapter with the attempted suicide hobby was the stuff of legends. Back then Oda really managed to make him an awe-inspiring foe and that was before we even knew he could turn into a dragon. I was eager to see him in action.
Then, his first appearance as a drunken dragon (when he destroys the ruins of Kuri castle) is great as well. He is ruthless yet comical, puts Luffy in a rage, puts Luffy in his place with a single swing of his club. That should have paved the way for some great developments, but...

...But beyond this the story did not give him much room other than the big final fight. As most have said, his past and motivations - not to mention his relation with Yamato - are only brushed over by the last-minute afterthought we got as an excuse for a flashback. Sure there's enough information sprinkled throughout the arc to let readers fill the blanks, but that's not how I want to enjoy storytelling. With how crammed everything is I found difficult to appreciate the delivery. Linlin or Doffy had a much, much, much better serve.

Strength is something you won't see me complain about. He was clearly the most brutal, most enduring villain in the entire manga and I hope he remains so until the end.

I have no idea if we will see him again. Once upon a time I would have said yes, but nowadays Oda keeps reminding us he is entering the final sprint, so I don't have much hope beyond a handful of flashback panels.

electricmastro

@Seafarer33 said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

Kaido ? Good opportunity, I re-read Wano last month.
Short version : Wolfwood said it best. Big guy, big club, small personalily. His brightest moment was definitely his introduction, afterwards it only went downhill.

The revelation chapter with the attempted suicide hobby was the stuff of legends. Back then Oda really managed to make him an awe-inspiring foe and that was before we even knew he could turn into a dragon. I was eager to see him in action.
Then, his first appearance as a drunken dragon (when he destroys the ruins of Kuri castle) is great as well. He is ruthless yet comical, puts Luffy in a rage, puts Luffy in his place with a single swing of his club. That should have paved the way for some great developments, but...

...But beyond this the story did not give him much room other than the big final fight. As most have said, his past and motivations - not to mention his relation with Yamato - are only brushed over by the last-minute afterthought we got as an excuse for a flashback. Sure there's enough information sprinkled throughout the arc to let readers fill the blanks, but that's not how I want to enjoy storytelling. With how crammed everything is I found difficult to appreciate the delivery. Linlin or Doffy had a much, much, much better serve.

Strength is something you won't see me complain about. He was clearly the most brutal, most enduring villain in the entire manga and I hope he remains so until the end.

I have no idea if we will see him again. Once upon a time I would have said yes, but nowadays Oda keeps reminding us he is entering the final sprint, so I don't have much hope beyond a handful of flashback panels.

Considering as how revelations such as a horned robot came to light and people like Oars, it wouldn’t surprise me if Kaido and Yamato played a role in the bigger picture in terms of explaining things like an Oni race and maybe even and Oni Kingdom that existed back then that cooperated with the Great Kingdom during the Void, and that he left some things unfinished for that reason.

Zanze

Maybe I'll post more thoughts at a later time, but I think Kaido's biggest problem is: he was just not very hateable as a villain, and not much of a personal foe to the main character at all (in fact, they respected each other and both were having fun during the final showdown).
Since he's the main threat of a good 30% of the manga, maybe those two aspects should have been more pronounced in order to make the moment he finally went down truly satisfying.

Aside from this, I like that Oda tried to make him a bit more of a 3d character compared to past villains, but unlike Doffy or Big Mom it feels like there's something missing. Can't believe we got pretty much nothing out of his relationship with Yamato, and didn't even found out what exactly made him so depressed.
In the end he came off as just a violent drunkard, but not even a particularly malicious one. So I don't know...

As the strongest creature in the world, he worked pretty well though. He's been a very imposing presence and taking him down really took a lot.
But even there, sometimes he felt more like an HP sponge than anything. This is the first arc where some good guys actually die, and they die by the hands of Orochi (the weakling villain!), Kanjuro, and CP0 (who were not even actually part of the conflict). Wouldn't it have been better to have Kaido be the one who killed some of them?
The fight scenes themselves however were 10/10. Kaido has been the most spectacular villain in all of One Piece hands down. So that part worked well.

Last but not least, aside from King & Queen and Ulti, his crew kinda sucked?

I don't know, I enjoyed him overall but it feels like there were a couple of things missing.

Rean

My biggest issue with Kaido is that he's been short on depth from moment one. His introduction was hype yes, but it also told us next to nothing about who he is as a person (which is something that every single Yonko introduction accomplished really well).

Orochi being the source of all evil on Wano isn't something that helped Kaido's portrayal either.

Him being so intricately tied to Rocks and his downfall only made Oda's options more limited when presenting his flashback, how do you do that flashback without giving away the goods on Rocks and God Valley?

Part of me feels like this isn't the last we've seen of Kaido, and he will be present in future flashbacks and lore drops ala Whitebeard, but the other part doesn't want to start headcanoning things and getting disappointed later on.

electricmastro

@Rean said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

My biggest issue with Kaido is that he's been short on depth from moment one. His introduction was hype yes, but it also told us next to nothing about who he is as a person (which is something that every single Yonko introduction accomplished really well).

Orochi being the source of all evil on Wano isn't something that helped Kaido's portrayal either.

Him being so intricately tied to Rocks and his downfall only made Oda's options more limited when presenting his flashback, how do you do that flashback without giving away the goods on Rocks and God Valley?

Part of me feels like this isn't the last we've seen of Kaido, and he will be present in future flashbacks and lore drops ala Whitebeard, but the other part doesn't want to start headcanoning things and getting disappointed later on.

He’ll prob be quaked out of the volcano by Blackbeard at some point for all we know, but by then, things will get so huge, it will be overwhelming for even him.

Rean

@electricmastro I don't think we will see him in the manga's canon at all. Maybe as a post-OP movie villain (we ARE getting post-series stuff, it's par for the course).

electricmastro

@Rean said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

@electricmastro I don't think we will see him in the manga's canon at all. Maybe as a post-OP movie villain (we ARE getting post-series stuff, it's par for the course).

In a manga where villains like Buggy, Mr. 3, Alvida, Bon Clay, etc. came back, then I’m sure it can be understood why someone feels Kaido could come back. lol

RomanceDawn

There were so many things about Kaidou that really intrigued me. When he mentioned Wano is special, there seemed to be some greater mystery to his motivations. When Luffy got distracted and knocked out I thought Kaidou’s expression was top tier! I mean I know what it means for him to have a big beautiful challenge but I thought that disappointment would get explored a little more. The sad drunk is still mysterious to me as well.

Upon a 2nd read some of these things might be a little more straightforward but I really really am unclear on Kaidou’s motivations. He has been the most disappointing villain for me in the entire series. I like em well enough but man was I disappointed.

electricmastro

@RomanceDawn said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

There were so many things about Kaidou that really intrigued me. When he mentioned Wano is special, there seemed to be some greater mystery to his motivations. When Luffy got distracted and knocked out I thought Kaidou’s expression was top tier! I mean I know what it means for him to have a big beautiful challenge but I thought that disappointment would get explored a little more. The sad drunk is still mysterious to me as well.

Upon a 2nd read some of these things might be a little more straightforward but I really really am unclear on Kaidou’s motivations. He has been the most disappointing villain for me in the entire series. I like em well enough but man was I disappointed.

I’d have to think he called Wano special because of Pluton, but the fact that he didn’t directly mention it aside from his live floor mention of the weapons does leave it open to it turning out to be something else.

Rean

@electricmastro All those villains aren't nigh-invincible and don't create nearly the same amount of problems when plotting an arc involving them.

electricmastro

@Rean said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

@electricmastro All those villains aren't nigh-invincible and don't create nearly the same amount of problems when plotting an arc involving them.

The main point is that Kaido always has the potential to come back, and that he wouldn’t be the first to be brought back regardless of arc’s finality.

Kdom

The introduction was great, the dragon design was great but then there was a lack of characterization. Oda focused the villainess on Orochi given to little place to Kaidou. He made the flashback too late and was forced to rush it. The fight end was disappointing and didn't give closure to Kaidou's wish to have a memorable death.
but probably, Kaidou greatest issue is that Big Mum came first
(And the fact that Oda invited her in Wano didn't help either with the comparison)

Rean

@electricmastro All villains have the theoretical capacity to return, that was never in question, the real question here is: Is Oda likely to want to bring back Kaido in the manga?

The answer is No.

All future plot threads that may potentially include Kaido don't require his presence in the here and now (like the Rocks plotline can just be dealt with via flashbacks).

Furthermore, he's one of the only villains that have been given an ending that simply isn't just him being KO'd, the dude was dunked into a volcano for a reason.

electricmastro

@Rean said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

@electricmastro All villains have the theoretical capacity to return, that was never in question, the real question here is: Is Oda likely to want to bring back Kaido in the manga?

The answer is No.

All future plot threads that may potentially include Kaido don't require his presence in the here and now (like the Rocks plotline can just be dealt with via flashbacks).

Furthermore, he's one of the only villains that have been given an ending that simply isn't just him being KO'd, the dude was dunked into a volcano for a reason.

Dude, Kaido wanted a big war as stated in his intro, so it’s possible Oda can always shake him out of his suspended volcano Animation regardless of what we think.

If I’m wrong , then we’ll see how the manga proves me wrong then.

Johnny B. Decent

The fact that where his crew is imprisoned and where Pluton is hidden is one and the same is a pretty clear indicator to me that Kaido is been put on stasis for the big, final war.

andre

For me, everything about Kaido worked outside of the flashback and the flashback was so disappointing that it derails a lot of what made him so enjoyable in the first place. Every little tidbit he gives biulds into this anticipation for us to see what formed such a beast and the actual reveal is possibly the least interesting major flashback in the series. It's kind of astounding how meager it is compared to every other villain, especially coming when it did, right at the climax of the arc. Parts of it work, too, but the whole feels like Oda is holding waaay too much back for the biggest villain we've encountered thus far.

In my opinion, Oda either needed to have Kaido hint less at a thousand things or needed to find a way to expand his flashback and he'd easily be the best villain in the series. As is, I give it to Arlong or Big Mom.

I have never thought Kaido was finished, though. I think he'll come back at some point in some capacity, but I really believe Oda dropped the ball on him as a character.

electricmastro

@Johnny-B-Decent said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

The fact that where his crew is imprisoned and where Pluton is hidden is one and the same is a pretty clear indicator to me that Kaido is been put on stasis for the big, final war.

Oda could have easily had someone take Kaido's fruit and give the biggest confirmation there, so the fact that he didn't do that even though he did it with Whitebeard and Ace can say quite a bit.

Joy Boy

Kaido is one of my favorite characters but to me Oda did him dirty. I mean the flashback does explain stuff but it still feels like Oda in the end just wanted to finish things. Every time we thought that we could get a bit more Oda was completely shafting it to get to another point. When he spoke about how a death completes a person I was awed. Never an antagonist character in the series spoke so openly about defeat. When we got the Joy Boy stuff and him wanting to change the world I was even more intrigued. Oda does explain those things but in the end they come out to us readers as poor exposition. Kaido wants a grant death to be remembered but we don’t see what made him like that. We can only assume that he was jealous of 3 guys. That bright smile all of emotion when he says that he wants to change the world is just explained as him wanting to cause war and make everybody equal through battle which doesn’t make sense to me. No in depth relation with Yamato. He’s supposed to be an Oni and Oda neglects that also. Why did he speak of humans like that ?

As for his strength I think we’ll never see anything like him again in the story so props to Oda for that. Still in the end I feel that he had to nerf him because it doesn’t make sense for someone like him to not showcase awakening.

Such massive potential yet Oda simply failed to deliver. That’s Kaido

electricmastro

@Joy-Boy said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

He’s supposed to be an Oni and Oda neglects that also. Why did he speak of humans like that ?

One has to wonder if he mourns for any Oni he had a sentimental relationship with, and that he partially blames humans for why he’s not able to be with them anymore.

Daz

Kaidou is like if you took an overarching saga-antagonist like Crocodile with the level of status of Big Mom, and ultimately delivered a Lucci.

Like, I've comapred the Orochi/Kaidou dynamic to Spandam/Lucci previously, but there it worked because Spandam was the one in charge of the organization and the one with the grand plans, but also even though Lucci was more of a fight-happy sadist enforcer he was still very much ideologically on board with said plan. Kaidou is like if Lucci was the boss, but was also very half-hearted about the whole Pluton plan/absolute justice ideals.

I said multiple times across the Wano arc that Kaidou never seemed that personally invested, that he didn't really seem to CARE about anything that much, and the flashback that everyone had put their hopes on to deliver last-minute context on in this regard fell utterly short. Where he worked the most was as a guy hungering for battle, and as said before that beat of him being so distraught that CP0 guy interferes with his battle is maybe his most interesting single moment, but such a guy is a poor fit as a head of a massive world power with grand designs both for the nation he occupies and the world at large, who serves as the villain for a multi-arc saga. Maybe someone like Kaidou would've been served better as a Movie villain or something.

wolfwood

Wano was just something he did betwenn suicide attempts.

I forget what the name of that warrior monk in kingom is. But Kaido is like that guy, he's interesting as an obstacle but beyond that he's pretty one-note.

zeltrax225

If we are being honest, Lucci's backstory and characterization meshes well with who he is as a person. He has psychopathic traits and enjoys violence, having little to zero moral compass.
He is also willing to get his hands dirty.

Kaido, on the other hand, is a mess. If you take him as someone that is competent at battle and then incompetent at everything else, it becomes simple to understand the guy.
The weapons manufacturing wasn't his idea, being a manipulative prick and ruling over Wano had little to nothing to do with him, he also fucked up his 2-1 alliance lead with another Yonkou on his side, his soldiers are only loyal because of fear so he suck at leadership too, SMILE is hilariously stupid with bad odds so he's obviously terrible at maths and Joker was the one running the black market side of things.

Oh and Oda keeps writing the guy as "someone who won't stoop that low" because the weapons idea didn't come from him (random old lady side character), manipulating Oden and humiliating him also didn't come from him (Orochi). Yeaaah, except he also tried to murder a literal child but I guess when it comes to fights, he wants it to be fair.
Except not really. He doesn't even pretend to give a shit about the weapons and has constantly shown that he wants a good fight more than whatever 10-year plan whoever conjured for him. There were so many moments he could have settled it on a fight with Oden and it is so much more in line with his character to not give a shit about everything else and seek a good fight. It doesn't fucking make sense for him to give in to Orochi's whims when he doesn't care about Orochi at all.

I hated the whole Vegeta/Kenpachi/Samurai honorable-when-fighting bullshit that's being pulled with him. Him nodding his head to give power to the ideas of OTHERS also further reinforce the idea that he is a terrible ruler/leader. The thematic ending to Onigashima was also one of the worst.
Food, really? Sure,you can argue that Luffy wants a world where even the weak can thrive whereas Kaido only wants a world for the strong so there's a clash of ideals but you got to be shitting me if that few panels are supposed to support whatever the hell Kaido is thinking.

electricmastro

@wolfwood said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

Wano was just something he did betwenn suicide attempts.

I forget what the name of that warrior monk in kingom is. But Kaido is like that guy, he's interesting as an obstacle but beyond that he's pretty one-note.

He prob feels one-note to many most likely because we don’t really have a good grasp of what kind of role Kaido will have in the bigger picture. For now, many seem to be awkwardly teeter-tottering between when he’ll even show up again or him never showing up ever again. If Oda did the volcano toilet flush as his way of getting more people to guess and look forward to when Kaido will show up again, then I’d say it has mixed results.

desa

I'd probably enjoy Kaido as a movie villain. Shallow enough that he doesnt need an expanding narrative and strong enough to get my adrelanine pumping.

@Daz said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Kaidou the villain:

Kaidou is like if you took an overarching saga-antagonist like Crocodile with the level of status of Big Mom, and ultimately delivered a Lucci.

You always find such an elequent way to voice I could never properly articulate.