The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS)

[Captain Krupp]

Sorry if this is not kosher but I really wanted to adress this. Orochi just stinks up the joint and the worst part is that there is no need for him to exist (Which is ironic given one of my reasons)

-Steals all the actual villainy from Kaido and the desire to see Kaido defeated.
-Steals all the actual motivation and character from Kaido.
-His constant deaths are time wasting.
-Wrecks the famous "JUST EXISTING CANNOT BE CRIME" theme and lesson.
-Wastes needless time dividing all the screentime from Kaido.
-Wrecks the likeability of the Wano people and their plight.

Can you think of any yourserlves? I want to see this man BURN LOL.

[Johnny B. Decent]

I think what would have been best if Kaido just came to Wano and conquered it straightaway, and made himself Shogun, and Oden is either lost for 5 years, or something. But he manages to come back, incite a revolt, but is defeated and dies. Or alternatively, hostages for all the Daimyo are held by Kaido and when he goes out, they save them and then begins the revolt.

So, Kaido would have both the Beast Pirates and the Shogunal Army under his direct command, without Orochi as a middleman.

[andre]

The only thing I slightly agree with is the point about Wano citizen likeability. Kaido and Orochi are two very separate entities and I don't think Kaido would be as interesting if he was the cackling villain that Orochi is. Like Big Mom and Doflamingo and many others, he's a broken dream mirror of Luffy. He wouldn't be compelling if he was just straight up evil. The intrigue is in his backstory and the cracks of honor and civility he displays contrasted with his inhumanity, desire to break wills and enslave. Now, I don't think Oda even approached delivering on his backstory and I'm no longer holding out on him ever revisiting it, but yeah, I don't think Orochi really ruins the story at all.

I do think Kaido should have killed a couple allies himself, but my feelings are that Oda is trying to retain Big Mom and Kaido as reluctant allies in the future, ala Crocodile, so he restrained their evil a bit; thus Orochi (and maybe Streusen).

[desa]

I would say you makinng an argument why it ruins Wano not the manga. And you can just do that in the wano thread.

But yes I agree that it would have been better to have Kaido be the only villain.

Like maybe you can have Orochi exist in the flashback and Kaido betray and kills him to become the shogun/ruler of the place. And after all that suffering we see both Kurzumi and Kozuki working together to take down that destroy their country and let go of blood feud that led to that in the first place. Tama and Momo being that new peaceful time. With Tama being clearly identified as one (textbox and all not something for deep fans).

[electricmastro]

Maybe his existence will be more justified then, depending on what Wano citizens do regarding “Kurozumi was meant to burn.”

[Zik]

Wano is like if you combined Alabasta and Drum in to one saga. Make Croc the big name behind the evil leader of the country, Wapol.

Oda did this cuz he wanted his own separate Japanese story focusing on the scabbards, Oden, and a direct villain for them. You change Kaido a lot if you give him Orochi's motivations and any of those slimy personality traits.

Wano was pretty fucked up on its own with this blood feud with the Kurozumis and everybody else led by the Kozukis. That story had to play out. If not this would just be another repeat of Alabasta and Dressrosa just with an emperor this time. I feel it worked out.

[desa]

@Zik said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

Wano is like if you combined Alabasta and Drum in to one saga. Make Croc the big name behind the evil leader of the country, Wapol.

Oda did this cuz he wanted his own separate Japanese story focusing on the scabbards, Oden, and a direct villain for them. You change Kaido a lot if you give him Orochi's motivations and any of those slimy personality traits.

Wano was pretty fucked up on its own with this blood feud with the Kurozumis and everybody else led by the Kozukis. That story had to play out. If not this woyld just be another repeat of Alabasta and Dressrosa just with a emperor this time. I feel it worked out.

Crocodile being a financier of Wapol is a good analogy. And I think it weakens both characters by not giving Wapol the focus for being the direct cause of Chopper suffering while making Crocodile feel too detach from the root of the conflict by not being the instigating force.

As far as the story playing out. If both Kurozumi and Kozuki died from Kaido and we see the new generation of both family working together to restore the country I think it does a better job of showing blood feuds and being divided is bad but working together and not holding people responsible for familial mistake is good.

[danie]

I mostly agree that it would have been better for Kaido to not have had to share the main villain role with Orochi... But Orochi did make a compelling main villain! What a dilemma.

I kinda feel the same way about Big Mom in Wano... It worked but maybe it would have been better for her to just show up in Elbaf.

[electricmastro]

@danie said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

I mostly agree that it would have been better for Kaido to not have had to share the main villain role with Orochi... But Orochi did make a compelling main villain! What a dilemma.

I kinda feel the same way about Big Mom in Wano... It worked but maybe it would have been better for her to just show up in Elbaf.

I’ve suspected that Oda usually creates a dual villain dynamic so that fans don’t feel as bad favoring a villain in general, like how he had Spandam so far more hatable acts than Lucci, even though Lucci could have been just as hatable as Spandam.

[wolfwood]

Either cut the scabbard-Orochi stuff or cut the Kaido stuff. Insisting on doing both at the same time just makes both things worse

[Marcotty]

Personally would've enjoyed seeing Yamato in Orochi's place and twist it into more of a "Forced Tyrant" role. Forced to take over the role of Shogun for some 10 or so years and enact the cruel regime under threat of Kaido coming over himself and doing worse if things don't meet his demands. A single death if Yamato acts, or an entire village if Kaido's forced to do it himself. Threats like that would've fit much better with Wano's story than "exploding handcuffs."

Then give Yamato credit later for sometimes taking beatings for production failures, letting the witching hour burglaries happen, and other things that ultimately made things slightly less than as bad as they could've been.

[Zik]

@desa said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

@Zik said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

Wano is like if you combined Alabasta and Drum in to one saga. Make Croc the big name behind the evil leader of the country, Wapol.

Oda did this cuz he wanted his own separate Japanese story focusing on the scabbards, Oden, and a direct villain for them. You change Kaido a lot if you give him Orochi's motivations and any of those slimy personality traits.

Wano was pretty fucked up on its own with this blood feud with the Kurozumis and everybody else led by the Kozukis. That story had to play out. If not this woyld just be another repeat of Alabasta and Dressrosa just with a emperor this time. I feel it worked out.

Crocodile being a financier of Wapol is a good analogy. And I think it weakens both characters by not giving Wapol the focus for being the direct cause of Chopper suffering while making Crocodile feel too detach from the root of the conflict by not being the instigating force.

As far as the story playing out. If both Kurozumi and Kozuki died from Kaido and we see the new generation of both family working together to restore the country I think it does a better job of showing blood feuds and being divided is bad but working together and not holding people responsible for familial mistake is good.

I feel like Oda had two stories in mind that he ran side by side. One was Luffy’s continuing rise and finally taking down an emperor with a good enough investment in Wano and the other was basically the scabbards and Momo liberating the Wano ppl from Orochi. I think he did a good enough job.

That’s one way it could’ve went between the two families but then it leaves out twists like Kanjuro’s betrayal (unless you make that whole thing Kaido’s idea which again isn’t much like him).

As for that angle, I would’ve much preferred it if Orochi just had a son that hated him (same as Yamato with Kaido or simply add more reasons I mean Sanji ended up being the black sheep the same way). Have him be against him and Kaido, have a little town where the ppl were actually fed and he tried to treat well before Beast pirates fuck it up, gives Yamato a “brother” to get through over a decade of struggle, eventually have him try to kill Orochi and get banished or try to beat Kaido with Yamato and lose.

Then by the time of the raid he can team up with the strawhats and scabbards and really settle this vendetta the Kurozumis had. I mean Orochi died a bunch of times during the raid why not one more time against his son. Also it’ll better unify things for any Wanonese that were still on Orochi’s side (not many but I assume any of the higher class rich ppl who helped oppress others would not want to change).

[Razh]

For me Wano itself is when OP really started to burst at the seams. Orochi and his incomplete arc are just a small part of that.

If anything I had hoped that his devil fruit would awaken and go berserk...

[Seafarer33]

As for me I do not mind Orochi as a vilain so strongly. He fits the part and his existence sheds light on the notion that Wano isn't this perfect society whose sole problem would have been invading pirates, so I would keep him around if only for this. I completely agree, however, that he steals too much focus from Kaido - whom we barely see in the first two acts - especially later on with his and Kanjuro's multiple returns. I'm convinced the raid would have been much more streamlined if both of them had stayed down after their first "death" and the Scabbards with them.

Plus, because Orochi was around until the very end, I can't help but feel the story missed an enormous opportunity to have the different Wano factions reconcile against a common enemy. What Desa suggested could have worked just fine, but such as it is, the 20-year long rule of Orochi has been supported by a sizeable part of the population who benefited from it while the rest were suffering, starving or enslaved or all three. These people should at least be seen making amends afterwards, if not be dealt some form of retribution. But, it all gets shoved under the rug because all Wanoese were rebels at heart all along and Kurozumi was meant to burn. Meh.

[wolfwood]

Him ending up as a running gag of people just killing him and not caring about it was so weird

[desa]

I like Orochi a lot. I just do not think it was a good idea to have him there if Kaido was going to be the main villain. Sometimes you have to choose between 2 good things rather then try to force them together.

[electricmastro]

I gotta wonder if people said the same thing when Spandam was paired up with Lucci or Decken was paired up with Hody.

[MetaMario]

Still-in-the-middle-of-Wano-here. I know the broad strokes but since I didn't keep up weekly I have to get into the meat of the details.

Orochi is such a hateable little worm that I have like, 1% less hatred for Spandam. And I know the answer is "no lol" but I really really really wish the Scabbards ended up drowning him.

[Zik]

@desa said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

I like Orochi a lot. I just do not think it was a good idea to have him there if Kaido was going to be the main villain. Sometimes you have to choose between 2 good things rather then try to force them together.

Oda probably should’ve handled things in stages instead of side by side with Orochi and Kaido.

Have the scabbards face off with Kanjuro and Orochi first, have some sort of struggle, think they killed him then move on to Kaido. Other strawhat fights begin. Kanjuro dies and makes Kurozumi fire monster. Then have the supernovas against the emperors, have Luffy take his first L, Kaido goes to kill Momo, kills Orochi and proclaims his win and that Yamato is the new shogun. Big Mom vs. Law and Kidd. Then have the scabbards take their L to Kaido, Yamato vs Kaido, Luffy returns and everything is pretty much the same.

I think Oda thought he could pull this off the same way he handled Rob Lucci and Spandam but underestimated how big he made Orochi and Kaido story wise.

[Robby]

@Captain-Krupp said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

I want to see this man BURN LOL.

Sounds to me like he filled his role perfectly since you hate him so much.

His role was to be a specific threat for Wano and the Scabbards, while Kaidou could be there for Luffy to deal with. They served different purposes.

Like in Water 7, Lucchi was the brick wall that almost killed Luffy, but Spandam was the real threat, despite being a total weakling.

[wolfwood]

Oda should probably have taken a break, written a one of samurai story with original characters that had had been aching to write and gotten over whatever OP relater fatigue he had going on

[andre]

@Zik said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

I think Oda thought he could pull this off the same way he handled Rob Lucci and Spandam but underestimated how big he made Orochi and Kaido story wise.

There's a boldness to the whole vision of Wano's ending that makes me disagree. Parts of it do feel rushed, but my reading of it is that Oda did about exactly what he wanted with Orochi and Kaido and accomplished it all precisely how he wanted to. I wasn't a huge fan of how either went down and the overall messaging at the end with Hiyori is weird, but it's all super confident and basically all of the Hiyori stuff feels very intentional to me.

[desa]

@wolfwood said in The ways Orochi's existence wrecks the manga. (SPOILERS):

Oda should probably have taken a break, written a one of samurai story with original characters that had had been aching to write and gotten over whatever OP relater fatigue he had going on

that works too. A Orochi / scabbards story outside of the constraints of one piece would have been nice. Especially with him willing to be bloodthirsty with that story.

[Cockycent]

Orochi was 1 of the GOATs of the arc.

Not his fault Kaido took so much time to become a decent character.

Spandem is a better character than Lucci, but i'm not gonna blame him for Oda's inability to make Lucci more likeable.

[ea77]

@Cockycent Ah...never heard that before.

[Captain Krupp]

I want to adress the whole "Orochi was there for the Scabbards to defeat". That's swell and all but ignores the fact that They didnt get to do squat to Orochi. Hiyori of all people got the task and again this wrecks the just existing cannot be a crime aesop.

[Cockycent]

@Captain-Krupp I wouldn't say "squat".

They cut his heads down to 1, then Denjiro went missing for 1000 chapters and cut off his final head.

It was the 2 that waited under Orochi's nose all those years that finished him.