Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara

Seafarer33

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Yeah, what's this entire "the WG is going to come after us if they find out we know about this history?" nonesense?

If anything, I would say that it is very much in character for Usopp and Nami ? Their acts fortunately go beyond their cowardly words most of the time, but sad though it may be we've had ample proof in Wano that the dangers they faced so far didn't make them any braver on the surface.

Sanji is a different matter, I do join you in hoping that he is not the one going at length about the world gov's gonna murder us.

Ivotas

@Seafarer33 said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Yeah, what's this entire "the WG is going to come after us if they find out we know about this history?" nonesense?

If anything, I would say that it is very much in character for Usopp and Nami ? Their acts fortunately go beyond their cowardly words most of the time, but sad though it may be we've had ample proof in Wano that the dangers they faced so far didn't make them any braver on the surface.

While it is true that it unfortunally is in character for Nami and Usopp to express worries, it's the choice of words what makes this particularly bad. All Oda had to do is to have them freaking while saying something along the lines of "as if the WG didn't have enough reason already to come after us!" That way you still end up with the scaredy cats being scared their words are more in line the crews role in the story.

Dogmeat

@Kdom said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

i think it is more linked to the fact he is a giant than a D.

I'm in the team that is not bothered by the fact he is not dead. I have reread Robin's flashback last chapter after this one and knowing he is not dead has not diminished my appreciation of the scene. The message he sends to Robin is still strong and I'm rather happy they will see each other again soon.

It seems we have yet a lot of explanations to get and we are just at the beginning of the revelations.
I wonder what is the mysterious machine Shaka talk about. Will he explain what is the history of Egghead island. Did he come here after reading from the island from one of Ohara's book ?
Also, I hope we will learn of Kuma soon so that Franky and Bonney can understand what happened.

Oh I'm not bothered either.

I haven't read Robin's backstory for a while, I did remember that Saul but not for what actually happened in Robin's flashback.

The fact that he is a giant and a D always stayed in my mind. Isn't that weird? I mean, we don't know what Ds are, but it doesn't seem to be a race/species , nor from a single "country" or location, it seems inheritable through parents...

Guess I just hope that will lead to some information about the Ds...
Wondering about that for more than a decade might have generated a mild obsession ;)

electricmastro

Why did Saul let Robin think he was dead this whole time?

wolfwood

For me there is a line betwenn convenient and i just can't be bothered. Like Luffys dad knowing Vegapunk could be argued to be kind of lazy but not in a way that bothers me too much, short cuts can be fine if not abused. But the way Oda essentially just threw up his hands and went who cares when piecing together how the will of Ohara ended up in Vegapunks hands is something else entirely. It's just so far below what you expect of Oda, heck it's something you'd even think was beneath Naruto. Just i want to move X to Y but i refuse to put in any work.

Daz

I feel the idea that ”Saul wasn’t that a big deal so it’s OK for him to return/ Robin lost everyone and Sauls death is undone the easiest so it’s OK for him to return” to be a bit disingenuous.

Firstly, while peoples appreciation of Saul is of course subjective – he’s not close to being my favorite flashback character- he was unambiguously positioned as extremely vital to Robins backstory. Saul specifically gets a little tease before the flashback proper starts, and in short order Robin is spending more time bonding with Saul rather than clover. Saul is probably at least as prominent in the flashback as Olvia, whom he not coincidentally shares Vol 41 cover prominence with, he’s immediately established as the “D” person Robin was established knowing way back in Alabasta, he’s the one who on-panel gets to instill ideas and hopes in Robin, he’s the one that gets the last big emotional capper to the flashback complete with farewell speech, his speech is the one that is called back to in chapter 398 where Robin finally accepts the Straw Hats, and Robin and Aokiji explicitly discuss Saul during the denouement of the arc.

The idea that Saul was not that big of a deal to Robin is explicitly not what the flashback is selling, and not this chapter either – Robins happiness here is predicated on Saul being a very important person to her!

But beyond that, resurrecting Saul feels completely redundant because of, well, Sauls big farewell speech. He literally tells Robin that he’s done for, and that Robin will find NEW friends in the future who will love and support her. The whole catharsis of Robin in the CP9 arc is that she has now found those New friends in the straw hat pirates, which is why 398 is such an all-timer chapter. Arc concluded! Catharsis achieved!

The flow of “Guardian of child dies leaving them alone, but assures them they will find companionship eventuallychild becomes embittered and isolatedeventually child obtains supportive True Friends/Found Family, hurray!” is nothing new, but it WORKS and tacking on “and then the child gets the Guardian back!! As a treat!!” is completely redundant at best, thematically incoherent at worst. Just imagine how hard people would roll their eyes if Sauls survival had been revealed during the actual CP9 arc, where the entire focus is about Robin finally having companionship in this little gang of people. “Good on you for finding friends Robin, I’m glad I left you alive as a final favor to your last true friend Saul, but also Saul totally lives you just haven’t met him yet. Also good on you for carrying the torch of Ohara, but also turns out people have been able to go to Elbaf and catch up on Oharan research all this time, because that research is still around”.

You don’t “earn” any backsies for your tragic backstory if your backstory is tragic enough (certainly no quarter was given to Noland and Calgara who both die completely miserable), but if you must undo a character death, someone like Saul, who’s parting words to Robin are literally “I’m done for, but you will find NEW friends” might literally be the worst choice. Trafalgar Law also ends his flashback completely and utterly devoid of ANY sort of companionship and it’s very sad, but that doesn’t mean he “deserves” a resurrection, and not just because “it would make less logical sense” for Rocinante to be alive.

(also something I discovered upon a reread; After having immobilized Saul with “Ice Time Capsule”, an attack traveling across the ground to freeze up Saul, Aokiji follows it up with regular-ass Ice Time later to completely encase Saul, the same Ice Time which kicked off the entire arc where it was established as highly lethal and made Robin freak out, which thus in turn makes it make sense to read Sauls fate in the later same arc-flashback as fatal and thus traumatizing to Robin as opposed to “even though this is the emotional capstone to the flashback it is a clever setup for Saul NOT being dead”).

Hades

That also rubbed me the wrong way. Like before that Ohara as land of knowledge had more mystisism to it as it seemed like something that existed for a long time. But nope, Clover seems to have created that entire place within a few decades only by just making him flock other people with the same idiology fly to him like moths attracted by a fly. How could this country ever get such a high standing within the WG if Clover was known to be a rowdy looking into problematic things? That just didn't sit well with me.

The tree of knowledge has been around for 5000 years so obviously the concept of "land of knowledge" has been around for a long time. Vegapunk was just talking about Clover's generation.

I felt the same. It's like they are listening to everything that's going on and then while witnessing the things Vegapunk reveals and Robin clearly crying out of joy, the Strawhat's are not only incapable human speech but also are so emotionally detatched that they can't even tell Robin is sharing tears of sheer happiness? Get out!

The tears of joy were the second cry when he found out that Saul was alive, the first one (the one where the Straw Hats got angry) was tears of sadness to be remembering the tragedy of Ohara.

GuetaMinute

@Kdom said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

You cannot ask a fictional serie to be representative of real world. Of course it is very convenient that Vegapunk and Dragon happened to know Clover. But if Oda wants that we learn more of Dragon and the revolutionnary plotline or Vegapunk, those are helpful facilities that do not hurt that much the serie.
On the countrary I find it good that we are not presented another random people A for such things and that he reuses characters that we know.

I was watching Better Call Saul and thought the exact same thing of how conveniently connected so many characters are. And that and Breaking Bad and as another example Game of Thrones did that but it worked, and all are very well written for the most part.

Johnny B. Decent

For what it's worth, Saul was dead in real life time for what? 15 years? For Oda, that's pretty good self-control. Like Pell and Conis' dad were brought back within a year each.

wolfwood

@Johnny-B-Decent fair. Must've been close to pulling a muscle in the undo finger

Riddler

@ARTEMlS said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Riddler said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

But that battle did have emotional stakes and inner conflict, those were just centered on her relationship to the crew in general and to Sanji specifically instead of her role as an archeologist.

The problem is this inner conflict just did not work at all because Black Maria didn't provide anything for Robin to be emotionally challenged in any way. When she asked "Did I hit a nail?" I just thought: No! You did hit nothing. You completely missed the mark. It just doesn't work.

She confronted her with her fear of only being a burden to her crew, which was literally one of Robin's biggest fears and the reason she left the crew in Enies Lobby. How does this not provide a good emotional hook for the fight but Black Maria being a history revisionist does? Black Maria didn't miss the mark at all. The fact that Robin wasn't fazed by those remarks as much as Black Maria intended was meant to show how much Robin had grown since then, both regarding her feelings of self-worth and her trust that the Strawhats would ever abandon her.

Of course, Luffy is the protagonist. But that does not mean there cannot be more compelling and better thought-out sideplots for the other Strawhats than what we actually have here.

I mean, I guess it's all subjective in the end, but I do find Robin's sideplot plenty compelling as it is and the suggestion that Robin hasn't actually had to work to gain information just isn't true imo. The only reason she found anything out on Fishman Island and Wano was because she was actively looking for Poneglyphs and then confronted people who might know something. Heck, she was even criticized on here for "carelessly" asking Oden's Dad questions about Pluton's location.

One thing I wanted to also respond to from your previous post was your statement that there were no (or not enough) hurdles in Robin's quest to uncover the secrets of the Void Century. To which I want to say: traveling the Grandline and surviving is in itself the hurdle for all of the Strawhats. Be it Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Franky or Brook,* they can all reach their goals and dreams by generally traveling through the Grandline, fighting the strong enemies along the way, and surviving. Why is Robin the only one who needs some extra hurdles in her way?

*I left out Chopper because I'm honestly not even sure what his dream even is. Now this is a character who would benefit from some story focus!

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Marcotty How is disclosing a secret by finding the right key "bad writing"?
Again, Luffy had to actually go out of his way and walk several extra miles to get and keep Robin in his crew. And all this while knowing nothing of how crucial she actually (once) was to obtain the One Piece. He gained the key and deserved it, for being a decent person.

If Kid and Law know of the burned man on Elbaf that knows ancient kingdom lore (and know what that entails), they would surely know of the Ohara scholar in Crocodile's entourage and work from there.
But they were likely too busy with their edgelord revenge plans and crucifying civilians habits, and they missed their chance, too bad for them.

Also, the OP being basically hard locked for anyone that isn't the reincarnation of the guy who buried it in the first place is instead good writing? Because now all hints are pointing to that, ask Roger for reference.

Robin will still be crucial for Luffy's group in particular to reach their goal. The fact that there a few more ways to read the Poneglyphs doesn't change the fact that Robin is still a super important help. If there were only 5 people in the world who could read the Poneglyphs, each of these five people would still be a really vital asset to your crew.

I am confused about your second point. Isn't it the other way around? If Robin, a member of Luffy's crew, was the absolute only way to become Pirate King, wouldn't that in fact make Luffy more special? Like, "of course, it's the Chosen One who has the one person in his crew that can help you get the One Piece, everybody else can just go screw themselves, they have no chance." The fact that there are other ways that may give other crews like Kidd, Blackbeard or Law a chance actually makes Luffy less special...

ARTEMlS

@Riddler said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

She confronted her with her fear of only being a burden to her crew, which was literally one of Robin's biggest fears and the reason she left the crew in Enies Lobby. How does this not provide a good emotional hook for the fight but Black Maria being a history revisionist does? Black Maria didn't miss the mark at all. The fact that Robin wasn't fazed by those remarks as much as Black Maria intended was meant to show how much Robin had grown since then, both regarding her feelings of self-worth and her trust that the Strawhats would ever abandon her.

As you say yourself, she has already outgrown these fears. That's why it does not work. It just came way too late. Therefore it's no good emotional hook anymore. Really, neither us readers nor any of the Strawhats question her or consider her a burden even in the slightest at this point.

Captain Krupp

Oh my god I cant even how much I would vomit if Corazon was alive lol.

wolfwood

@Captain-Krupp nobody is safe. Hide your emotional memories, they're reviving everybody out here

Daz

When we finally meet Namis real mom, the exiled former queen of Weatheria called the "Weather-Witch" (former Rocks Pirate), she will turn out to be...Bellemere!! Turns out the Bellemere that died was an actre- no wait, a highly advanced fata morgana, and that the real Bellemere has been in hiding all this time, particularly from her second cousin Kizaru.
(This also explains why Arlong shot fake!Bellemere, as revenge for that time Kizaru captured him)

Daz

@Hades said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

The tears of joy were the second cry when he found out that Saul was alive, the first one (the one where the Straw Hats got angry) was tears of sadness to be remembering the tragedy of Ohara.

The first instance of Robin crying is prompted by Vegapunks reveal that the research of Ohara was saved, that Ohara "won", a fact he says moved him to tears - cue a Robin crying too after a flashback showing Ohara fighting to preserve its findings for the future. It's very much a reaction to good news

Bugs

I would actually find Robin’s Poneglyph search more interesting if pretty much every Poneglyph we’ve seen wasn’t either connected to the Ancient weapons or a road Poneglyph. The only big exception is the Joyboy one from Fishman Island, and that’s prophecy related, so it doesn’t make it better. For a historian, Robin’s search is quite frankly lacking in history.
(Also, better to spread some info about the Ancient Kingdom and the past, rather than having these dull regurgitation that don’t tell us anything, through them bit by bit with each island.)

@Daz

Oda won't do that. He's likely to screw the pooch by having Nami be a lost royal, but he's going to make it worse simply by leaving a message that Nami's birth mother is more important to her than the one that actually raised her with lines like "I always wanted to have a mom."
(I know you're joking but I consider it plausible Oda could mess here).

wolfwood

Just wait til we find out Choppers birth parents are reindeer royalty/revolutionaries

Bugs

Everyone shall be of royal blood except Caribou, the true hero of the proletariat.

ARTEMlS

Nah, Nami is the daughter or reincarnation (or both at the same time) of a random moon goddess whom the people in ancient times worshipped. That goddess was quite prolific hence the Nami face is so prevalent. That goddess basically was a female Zeus.

Therefore, Nami getting Zeus is some nifty foreshadowing, eh?

desa

@wolfwood said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Captain-Krupp nobody is safe. Hide your emotional memories, they're reviving everybody out here

You jest. But I legit never fathom Oda would even consider touching the pre time skip flashbacks. But with Saul I got a brutal realization that nothing is sacred enough to not be messed with.

Bellemere got shot on camera so I think that will stick but I can't just dismiss the idea that Tashigi is Kuina in some form anymore.

Lemony

@Bugs Man, y'all go to far. Yeah, it sure looks plausible that Oda would do that. One Piece, the series extremely famous for saying blood is the only thing that matters in parent-child relatioships.

Lemony

@Daz said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Hades said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

The tears of joy were the second cry when he found out that Saul was alive, the first one (the one where the Straw Hats got angry) was tears of sadness to be remembering the tragedy of Ohara.

The first instance of Robin crying is prompted by Vegapunks reveal that the research of Ohara was saved, that Ohara "won", a fact he says moved him to tears - cue a Robin crying too after a flashback showing Ohara fighting to preserve its findings for the future. It's very much a reaction to good news

I can see that, but I think you can also interpret it by Robin being made to remember tragic memories, I'm not sure she was already on the mindset to be happy about it instead of reliving trauma.

wolfwood

@desa said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Bellemere got shot on camera so I think that will stick

You never know. What if it turns out that Arlong was secretly team good guy all along

ARTEMlS

@wolfwood said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@desa said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Bellemere got shot on camera so I think that will stick

You never know. What if it turns out that Arlong was secretly team good guy all along

I mean he did put her in the dungeon, maybe to protect her from the true evil guys?

Dragon D. Luffy

Saul being alive isn't too bad in isolation because mechanically it is possible and making Robin happy near the end of the series is cool.

However when in not isolation, it's another entry in a long series of fake outs, and now touching previously uncharted territory for the fake outs, the flashbacks.

Now all bets are off. Literally anyone could return. I don't think a lot more will return, but again, I don't know what is sacred anymore. If you ask me to name one character I'm 100% sure will not return, I don't have one. Not even Ace.

danie

@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1066: >The Will of Ohara:

However when in not isolation, it's another entry in a long series of fake outs, and now touching previously uncharted territory for the fake outs, the flashbacks.

Not uncharted. Sabo was played off as dead in Luffy's flashback too and he also turned out alive. I know their was a clear hint of Sabo being alive with Dragon but he was still played off as dead.

Just to be clear: the issue is that the readers are led to believe a character is dead, right? What the characters believe doesn't matter, correct?

Dragon D. Luffy

You are technically right about Sabo but I didn't even remember it because it worked with how the story was framed.

Sabo was a character who was introduced very suddenly and whose existance didn't add much to Luffy's character that wasn't already being done by others like Ace and Shanks. So it makes sense his role in the flashback was to inform his character in the present, not Luffy's (Oda created Sabo likely with the intention of having be the protagonist of the revs down the line). Also yeah, it was hinted.

desa

Sabo was easy to consider an exception because it was really second flashback with romance dawn being his true one and the inclusion was so clunky and obvious it was easy to consider it a clunky retcon move rather than something he would continue doing. But Saul really makes it clear that the flashbacks just aren't the safe heaven from Oda's usual pattern than they seemed to be.

Ivotas

@Hades said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

That also rubbed me the wrong way. Like before that Ohara as land of knowledge had more mystisism to it as it seemed like something that existed for a long time. But nope, Clover seems to have created that entire place within a few decades only by just making him flock other people with the same idiology fly to him like moths attracted by a fly. How could this country ever get such a high standing within the WG if Clover was known to be a rowdy looking into problematic things? That just didn't sit well with me.

The tree of knowledge has been around for 5000 years so obviously the concept of "land of knowledge" has been around for a long time. Vegapunk was just talking about Clover's generation.

The tree's age doesn't really tell us how long this has actually been the land of knowledge. And in just this very chapter Shaka literally says that Ohara became a heaven for archeologists because of other archeologists being drawn in by Clover.

I felt the same. It's like they are listening to everything that's going on and then while witnessing the things Vegapunk reveals and Robin clearly crying out of joy, the Strawhat's are not only incapable human speech but also are so emotionally detatched that they can't even tell Robin is sharing tears of sheer happiness? Get out!

The tears of joy were the second cry when he found out that Saul was alive, the first one (the one where the Straw Hats got angry) was tears of sadness to be remembering the tragedy of Ohara.

Right, thanks for correcting me on that front. I took my gripe with them not being able to read the mood and connected it with the wrong scene. No excuses there, I was wrong on them not getting the tears of joy front.

But the original gripe of them being unable to read the mood is still there. Shaka says that what transpired couldn't stop the tears from flowing and the very next panels have Robin crying. The flashback panels don't count here because those are exclusively in Robin's memory but nothing the Strawhat's can see. They literally have a guy tell a sad story about Ohara's past only for the same person to tell that he couldn't stop crying. And the very next thing they see is Robin, the last Oharan scholar cry too. But rather than wondering whether there is a connection between the two, what the deeper implications of all this might be or how Vegapunk not only knows more about Robin's past than any of the Strawhat's and thus is able to show sympathy on a level they cannot yet, all we get is "hey don't make our Robin cry".

Daz

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Right, thanks for correcting me on that front. I took my gripe with them not being able to read the mood and connected it with the wrong scene. No excuses there, I was wrong on them not getting the tears of joy front.

But the original gripe of them being unable to read the mood is still there. Shaka says that what transpired couldn't stop the tears from flowing and the very next panels have Robin crying. The flashback panels don't count here because those are exclusively in Robin's memory but nothing the Strawhat's can see. They literally have a guy tell a sad story about Ohara's past only for the same person to tell that he couldn't stop crying. And the very next thing they see is Robin, the last Oharan scholar cry too. But rather than wondering whether there is a connection between the two, what the deeper implications of all this might be or how Vegapunk not only knows more about Robin's past than any of the Strawhat's and thus is able to show sympathy on a level they cannot yet, all we get is "hey don't make our Robin cry".

I mentioned this in response to hades before, but this isn't quite right - The first instance of Robin crying is prompted by Vegapunks reveal that the research of Ohara was saved, that Ohara "won" - this is the fact he says moved him to tears. Cue a Robin crying too after a flashback showing Ohara fighting to preserve its findings for the future. It's very much a reaction to good news, otherwise she could've started crying when the subject of Ohara was raised by Vegapunk, before he drops the cathartic reveal that Ohara "Beat" the WG.

Ivotas

@Daz said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Ivotas said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Right, thanks for correcting me on that front. I took my gripe with them not being able to read the mood and connected it with the wrong scene. No excuses there, I was wrong on them not getting the tears of joy front.

But the original gripe of them being unable to read the mood is still there. Shaka says that what transpired couldn't stop the tears from flowing and the very next panels have Robin crying. The flashback panels don't count here because those are exclusively in Robin's memory but nothing the Strawhat's can see. They literally have a guy tell a sad story about Ohara's past only for the same person to tell that he couldn't stop crying. And the very next thing they see is Robin, the last Oharan scholar cry too. But rather than wondering whether there is a connection between the two, what the deeper implications of all this might be or how Vegapunk not only knows more about Robin's past than any of the Strawhat's and thus is able to show sympathy on a level they cannot yet, all we get is "hey don't make our Robin cry".

I mentioned this in response to hades before, but this isn't quite right - The first instance of Robin crying is prompted by Vegapunks reveal that the research of Ohara was saved, that Ohara "won" - this is the fact he says moved him to tears. Cue a Robin crying too after a flashback showing Ohara fighting to preserve its findings for the future. It's very much a reaction to good news, otherwise she could've started crying when the subject of Ohara was raised by Vegapunk, before he drops the cathartic reveal that Ohara "Beat" the WG.

I see your point but to what I'm having issues with I don't really think it makes much of a difference. It should be clear to the Strawhats if they not only read the mood but actually listen to the words spoken, that Vegapunk does not want to make Robin cry intentionally. Rather than wondering what this is all about which would be a normal human reaction they are triggered like a 2022 Twitter activist.

Daz

@Ivotas Yeah, the only way them acting as if Vegapunk is "hurtful" or malicious" would make sense is if Robin was a known Ohara hater- in which case Vegapunks statements could come off as "Gloating". Otherwise the only way you can read him as malicious is by having virtually zero social awareness.

Kdom

As someone who has never been fan of death in general and who likes happy endings, I'm rather amused to see all these messages of Oda ruining characters by deciding they were still alive.

Razh

I was actually glad the old bastard was alive. Guess those frozen people in Chocolate town are safe as well, more or less.

The main thing that bothered me this chapter was Dragon not telling all of this to Robin earlier. When they met? I suppose Oda drew himself into a corner. There's really no satisfying explanation as to why he chose to omit something like that. An event that shaped both of their future lives to such an extent!

"The time wasn't right."

"Not his story to tell."

"Whatever lol."

Daz

@Kdom To me it comes down to uncoupling Robin - a character I like - being rewarded/made happy, from what serves the storytelling and its themes.

Reviving a character from Robins backstory, where the entire point was "all may be lost now, but you will find new friends" - specifically reviving the character that says "all may be lost now, but you will find new friends"- just undercuts the entire arc of that storyline.

It's like if you had a story about a deformed/misfit outsider character who's told that eventually they'll be accepted for who they are, and then they do end up getting friends...and then they also magically get a normal appearance. It's a ""happier"" ending, but is needless because a resolution has already been achieved, and it undercuts the story being told.

Ivotas

@Daz said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Ivotas Yeah, the only way them acting as if Vegapunk is "hurtful" or malicious" would make sense is if Robin was a known Ohara hater- in which case Vegapunks statements could come off as "Gloating". Otherwise the only way you can read him as malicious is by having virtually zero social awareness.

Which is a problem that characters often seem to have when Oda decides the story requires it. The problem is that he fully capable of writing the same characters having proper social awareness, which in the story itself sets the frame. And then to do a 180 on it just feels off. If OP would be a series where lacking social awareness if one of his key characteristics Oda would stick with dogmatically then it would be easier to accept is because that would pretty much be how things are in this universe. But yoyoing between one and the other just doesn't work well.

Seafarer33

@Razh said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

The main thing that bothered me this chapter was Dragon not telling all of this to Robin earlier. When they met? I suppose Oda drew himself into a corner. There's really no satisfying explanation as to why he chose to omit something like that. An event that shaped both of their future lives to such an extent!

On the other hand, if she talked with the revos as much as the StrawHats do between themselves, it will be a wonder that they even know she ever met Saul. Dragon probably never got beyond whether she favors tea or coffee :p

Alfiere

@Riddler said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

I am confused about your second point. Isn't it the other way around? If Robin, a member of Luffy's crew, was the absolute only way to become Pirate King, wouldn't that in fact make Luffy more special? Like, "of course, it's the Chosen One who has the one person in his crew that can help you get the One Piece, everybody else can just go screw themselves, they have no chance." The fact that there are other ways that may give other crews like Kidd, Blackbeard or Law a chance actually makes Luffy less special...

... No, it wouldn't.
There's a big difference between earning something and being born with/being handed a privilege.

I'll say it once again, Robin was an advantage Luffy earned over his competitors. And it was the only advantage he ever earned. Every single other thing that put him before his supposed peers came either from his family ties (friends of Garp, friends of Dragon, friends of Ace) or Shanks, including the super special fruit and the super special hat.
Luffy didn't have to save Robin's life in the catacomb, or chase her to Enies Lobby. But he did nevertheless. Law Kid or Teach, in the same situation, wouldn't have, and that was what set him apart from the rest.
But now that is made inconsequential. Luffy could have let Robin die in either of those occasios and it wouldn't have mattered in the long run.
But he's still the frontrunner for Pirate King title. Because nepotism. Now that's an inspiring story.

Riddler

Nah, that's just not true. Luffy trained his ass off and went through several hardships. He earned all of his crew by being a good friend to them. If he hadn't helped Nami, for example, he wouldn't even have made it to the Grandline in the first place. His oh so awesome fruit powers couldn't even save him from a bunch of Mountain Bandits. He had to train and sweat and bleed and then train some more to get where he is now, and it was mostly thanks to his own strength of will and his overall personality that he achieved anything.

How did anything you just mentioned help him defeat Crocodile or Doflamingo, for example?

Alfiere

@Riddler said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Nah, that's just not true. Luffy trained his ass off and went through several hardships. He earned all of his crew by being a good friend to them. If he hadn't helped Nami, for example, he wouldn't even have made it to the Grandline in the first place. His oh so awesome fruit powers couldn't even save him from a bunch of Mountain Bandits. He had to train and sweat and bleed and then train some more to get where he is now, and it was mostly thanks to his own strength of will and his overall personality that he achieved anything.

How did anything you just mentioned help him defeat Crocodile or Doflamingo, for example?

Yeah, none of that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
It's not achievements we're discussing, it's advantages in the pirate king race and wether those were gained or not, and in general deserving to still be in the game this late.
The fact that sometimes he achieved something of his own doesn't in the least disprove the fact that he's still going only because he had connections and an OP fruit:

If he wasn't Dragon's son, his journey would have ended in Logue Town, or at Thriller Bark, or at Sabaody, or at Impel Down, or here in Egghead.

If he wasn't Garp's grandson he wouldn't have gone past Long Ring Long Land, or Water 7.

If it wasn't for his litterally divine fruit, there'd be one less new emperor and one more blood stain on top of Onigashima.

"he trained hard" Yeah wow, so did everybody else in the Worst generation I assume, but they couldn't count on a family friend or member to step in every time their recklessness jeopardized the journey, or being revived with a 10x powerup by their fruit if killed.

desa

I would prefer if Luffy wast the only one way with a way to get to the one piece. Which is why I would have preferred if phsically geting to the last island and reading the glyph that is there were separate issues. Meaning everyone has a shot at getting to the one piece and being king. But the only robin i can use it the one piiece in that one specific way.

But as it stands the race isnt really a race. Its Luffy having the only map and a bunch of people running around in complete denial about how screwed they are.

So other threads to get to the raftel is an idea I would have like and wish was part of the story earlier.

sgamer82

@desa said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

I would prefer if Luffy wast the only one way with a way to get to the one piece. Which is why I would have preferred if phsically geting to the last island and reading the glyph that is there were separate issues. Meaning everyone has a shot at getting to the one piece and being king. But the only robin i can use it the one piiece in that one specific way.

But as it stands the race isnt really a race. Its Luffy having the only map and a bunch of people running around in complete denial about how screwed they are.

So other threads to get to the raftel is an idea I would have like and wish was part of the story earlier.

This is perhaps exactly where Saul comes in as 'the man with the burn scar'. He can provide insight to a group other than Luffy's. Law might also be able to extrapoloate something with what he's learned so far. There were a bunch of theories around Zou about figuring things out with only 2 of 3 red Poneglyphs.

Johnny B. Decent

Also, who stole the Road Poneglyph from Fishman Island? I don't believe Neptune knew who did it, so it must have been clandestine.

Riddler

@Alfiere said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@Riddler said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Nah, that's just not true. Luffy trained his ass off and went through several hardships. He earned all of his crew by being a good friend to them. If he hadn't helped Nami, for example, he wouldn't even have made it to the Grandline in the first place. His oh so awesome fruit powers couldn't even save him from a bunch of Mountain Bandits. He had to train and sweat and bleed and then train some more to get where he is now, and it was mostly thanks to his own strength of will and his overall personality that he achieved anything.

How did anything you just mentioned help him defeat Crocodile or Doflamingo, for example?

Yeah, none of that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
It's not achievements we're discussing, it's advantages in the pirate king race and wether those were gained or not, and in general deserving to still be in the game this late.
The fact that sometimes he achieved something of his own doesn't in the least disprove the fact that he's still going only because he had connections and an OP fruit:

If he wasn't Dragon's son, his journey would have ended in Logue Town, or at Thriller Bark, or at Sabaody, or at Impel Down, or here in Egghead.

If he wasn't Garp's grandson he wouldn't have gone past Long Ring Long Land, or Water 7.

If it wasn't for his litterally divine fruit, there'd be one less new emperor and one more blood stain on top of Onigashima.

"he trained hard" Yeah wow, so did everybody else in the Worst generation I assume, but they couldn't count on a family friend or member to step in every time their recklessness jeopardized the journey, or being revived with a 10x powerup by their fruit if killed.

Then I guess I just don't know what exactly the differences between achievements and advantages in the Pirate King race are for you, because then you go on and list examples like, for example, that he only survived against Aokiji because of his grandfather, that he only survived against Kaido because of his overpowered fruit etc. Why do those things count as unearned advantages, but recruiting, for example, an amazing navigator to his crew because he was an awesome friend to her or defeating big obstacles in his way to become Pirate King like Crocodile or Doflamingo do not count as earned advantages? It just seems like an arbitrary distinction to me. All of that stuff is part of becoming the Pirate King in the end.

And I was never denying that Luffy oftentimes needed help - heck, he himself makes the point that he wouldn't be able to achieve shit without his friends help, for one, back in Arlong Park - or only survived due to sheer luck in numerous instances. As you pointed out yourself, that's been happening since Loguetown at the very least, all the way back in Chapter 100. I wasn't denying any of that, I was just taking umbrage with your claim that Robin was the only advantage he ever earned.

Yeah, the other Supernova also had to train and work hard to get where they are, but did any of them defeat several Shichibukai? Did any of them invade both Enies Lobby and Impel Down and survived? Sure, Luffy had a lot of help along the way, some of which was due to his family connections - but also only to a degree; while Ivankov and Jinbei started out helping him because of their connections to Dragon/Ace, they were very quickly drawn in and impressed by his own personality and strength of will - but he also had to fight much harder battles than the other contenders for the throne.

And while we are at it, couldn't you just as well say that Law only is where he is due to his overpowered Devil Fruit? Or that Teach is where he is because he knew Whitebeard and had the luck to stumble upon the Devil Fruit he wanted? Or that Big Mom only was able to become a Yonkou because she was born with amazing strength and durability and then also ate an incredibly powerful Devil Fruit? Why single out Luffy's "unfair" advantages and at the same time fully dismiss anything he did by himself to get where he is now?

Johnny B. Decent

Say about Kidd what you will, but he's a genuine underdog. He's not a D., like Luffy, Law and Teach. He lost his arm and got his face all fucked up, he got his ass kicked, his first mate got cursed with a SMILE, but he still managed to be a big part of Kaido and Big Mom's defeat and has a clue that the other two didn't. Guy's got real guts.

desa

@sgamer82 said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

@desa said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

I would prefer if Luffy wast the only one way with a way to get to the one piece. Which is why I would have preferred if phsically geting to the last island and reading the glyph that is there were separate issues. Meaning everyone has a shot at getting to the one piece and being king. But the only robin i can use it the one piiece in that one specific way.

But as it stands the race isnt really a race. Its Luffy having the only map and a bunch of people running around in complete denial about how screwed they are.

So other threads to get to the raftel is an idea I would have like and wish was part of the story earlier.

This is perhaps exactly where Saul comes in as 'the man with the burn scar'. He can provide insight to a group other than Luffy's. Law might also be able to extrapoloate something with what he's learned so far. There were a bunch of theories around Zou about figuring things out with only 2 of 3 red Poneglyphs.

The book probably have cool lore for fans or people that like general knowledge but I very much doubt it helps you get to the one piece. I'm pretty sure the truth will still be you need a translator to get there and Luffy is the only one with one.

I guess maybe Law with his fruit that can do anything will find a function to translate them.

Riddler

@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1066: The Will of Ohara:

Say about Kidd what you will, but he's a genuine underdog. He's not a D., like Luffy, Law and Teach. He lost his arm and got his face all fucked up, he got his ass kicked, his first mate got cursed with a SMILE, but he still managed to be a big part of Kaido and Big Mom's defeat and has a clue that the other two didn't. Guy's got real guts.

Haha yeah, while I was writing my response, I also thought to myself that Kidd apparently is the only real underdog in the race.

.access timeco.

Once we find out about Kid's past, I am sure we'll learn of his advantages too. This is not One Piece: Tales of Meritocracy, everyone gets where they are due to a mix of effort, luck and simply being helped by others. Law didn't earned the sympathy of Doffy and Rosinante, they simply handled it to him because he reminded them of young Doffy and if not for that Law wouldn't have even survived his childhood to become a pirate, much less be part of this race (and while we are at it, the simple fact Luffy was the only member of the Worst Generation who took the New World seriously enough to halt his adventure for 2 years only to prepare while the others just waltzed there should be enough to give him street credit to compensate for any unfair advantage thrown his way - ... except maybe the divine fruit of Joy Boy, that really pushed it).

If we didn't knew about Law's background, like we don't know Kid's, we would also be ignorant to all the things that pushed him to where he is beyond his own "merit".

desa

I mean I mostly consider Kidd a failure in deep denial so I can't really say I care much of his lack of advantage or not. I do like Capone an URouge tho.