What do you think about the Seraphims ?

[Nilitch]

I feel like most people liked the seraphims as super-cool stuff on many forums. I personally think that it's the worst addition to the story that Oda could have done to introduce more powerful characters. And I'm being nice when I say "character" because they don't even speak, which means their personality is none-existent. Now, we basically have augmented clones that can "rival" the strength of Teach...

I'm obviously looking forward to how Oda will manage the Seraphim plotline(s) though. Maybe Vegapunk will make them switch sides ??? but then the WG weirdos would be in a veryyyy bad situation I guess. I mean, Oda didn't have much trouble introducing Greenbull and Fujitora outta nowhere. But at least they are people with brains and distinctive traits. For me, the idea of seraphims look a lot like a huge wink to DBZ robots/clones/whatever. But in the end, did we really need this ?

[Captain M]

Are they compelling as characters in their own right? Of course not. They're weapons, not people. I'm not expecting the personality and interactions of a whole enemy crew from these things.

Are they compelling as culmination of literally decades of hints surrounding the sciences of cloning, cyborgs, devil fruit replication, bloodline elements, gigantification and ancient races? Hell yes. The worldbuilding has been laying the groundwork for these things for a long time and it's great to finally see them in action.

[danie]

I have mixed feelings about them but they seem very fitting as a replacement for the warlords, and I very much like that the warlord system was disbanded!

[King Cannon]

Yeah. Their whole existence is a big payoff to the buildup started by Vegapunk's introduction in Water 7.

Every arc since then went on to reveal a bit more about the science behind the Pacifista.

[Cockycent]

I like it

[Marcotty]

I like them and hopefully we get to see more potential fruit shenanigan combos to shake it up instead of their og fruits. However, right now there's the concern that Vegapunk(s) can just stop and direct them so easily. Meaning either the Vegapunks have to become the antagonists for the arc/future, or the Seraphims are gonna need to be broken out of the Vegapunk's control and into the main upper government players.

[FelRes]

I like them. They're not proper characters, they're tools, and the context for them is interesting as they're the natural progression of the ongoing government experiment conspiracy theory element of the story. And they even have a vague connection to some still-mysterious lore that was recently brought up with King's race. They're very connected to everything that's going on, plus it's a fun excuse to use the warlords' kid designs. And while they're very powerful, they aren't totally unbeatable. I'm curious to see where Oda goes with them.

[black-leg jex]

I think they're great. Depending on who has been cloned (like is there an Ace Seraphim?) there can be some real emotional drama raised in the story and that's really cool.

[Zanze]

They're pretty cool, mostly because they don't come out of nowhere but have been slowly building up since Sabaody at least. If Oda didn't introduce all the stuff that's used for them (cloning, gigantification, DF replication, child experimentation, Lunarians) as carefully as he did, they would have (rightfully) been seen as an omega-asspull. Instead their introduction felt very natural.
Plus I love how creepy they are. Them being children is a nice touch.
One thing is going to make them or break them for me, though: they need to stick to the original warlords (or, at most, be extended to later warlords like Law). If the likes of Ace, or even worse, Roger or Whitebeard start to show up as Seraphims this whole plotline is going to become very trashy.

Also, maybe King would have needed to be a main arc villain, that would have been more appropriate for all the relevance he's getting now. His powers weren't really all that developed during his fight with Zoro (I guess we're going to find out what exactly happened when Zoro sliced him and he just exploded through the Seraphims), and above all he was so cool once he became an actual character

[Deicide]

I'm on the fence.

As a threat, they are fine.
As characters, they are a blank.
As for themes to be explored, they have lots of potential.

They can be great. Or not.

[Nilitch]

I also believe there were hints at them being introduced. I'm not annoyed by the existence of "clones", but of "brainless hyper powerful clones that can potentially take down a yonko". At least if they could speak it would be better, but I'm uninterested to see them fight anyone.

Former pacifista are getting destroyed by one post-time timeskip Luffy punch though. Meanwhile, two seraphims left Amazon Lily unscathed when Teach and Boa clashed with them. I mean, these clones look way too powerful. Vegapunk better go and start his one yonkou crew at this point. And I fear the moment when a crew will face a whole group of seraphim, this would really turn into the most uninteresting kind of event for me.

Anyway, I notice to be in the very unpopular minority. As often.

@FelRes said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

And while they're very powerful, they aren't totally unbeatable. I'm curious to see where Oda goes with them.

They sure can't be unbeatable. But they seem to be as strong, or maybe even somehow stronger than their original ? And one of them could potentially be as strong as Mihawk. Which means, that the WG basically bought a yonkou with their Tenryubito money. And I'm not forgetting about the rest of them which consist of a lot of pirates with bounties higher than Marco

[Chrior]

Like other have said, I really liked the fact that they culminate all of these different bits of build up we've been getting for years and years:

• Vegapunk research in general;
• the first Pacifista generation as Kuma clones with a different devil fruit derived from Kizaru;
• devil fruit cloning, not only in the original Pacifistas but also with Momo's dragon fruit;
• child experimentation and gigantification being a line of research for a really long time.
• finally, the lunarians recently introduced through King, as well as ancient races in general;

It's been such a slow but methodic craft to get us to the point where the introduction of Seraphims as warlord replacements just seemed natural. I'm really curious to see where Oda is taking this plotline element.

Plus, the Jinbe Seraphim fighting with Señor Pink's devil fruit was such a fun and clever mode by Oda!

[onemoment]

This reminds me of the final arc of Naruto where a ton of old characters were revived as zombies and we got to see them fight again. It's a plot device that gives us stronger enemies with abilities that long-time viewers will understand, while also granting nostalgia. I only remember that example, but I have to wonder if other long running shonen series have done this?

That said, they have a lot of potential but they're handicapped because they don't talk. That can change later, but for now they're kind of just a quick plot device to create strong enemies where they're needed. I expect in a future battle they'll be used to showcase fighters with minimal panel time, which sadly has been needed for how bloated the story has gotten. Hopefully we can expect more from them later.

[RomanceDawn]

I like it. It always bugged me that wild animals and cyborgs seemed to get stomped by so many of the leading characters in this story. Then during the time skip I was glad to know that even just Elephants and Wild Boars could give a few worst gens a run for their money. These new Pacifistas being a real threat is also great as far as I'm concerned.

[Ivotas]

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Former pacifista are getting destroyed by one post-time timeskip Luffy punch though. Meanwhile, two seraphims left Amazon Lily unscathed when Teach and Boa clashed with them. I mean, these clones look way too powerful. Vegapunk better go and start his one yonkou crew at this point. And I fear the moment when a crew will face a whole group of seraphim, this would really turn into the most uninteresting kind of event for me.

The previous Pacifista have since their inception always been labeled as prototypes which by design means the finished products will be better.

As far as for the Seraphims supposed strenght level. I would assume that the most brilliant scientist in the world - who had been hyped up for more than half of the series run, is able to create cyborg/android prototypes that had a huge impact at Marineford and is supposedly working on weaponry to help turn the tide in the fight against piracy - would be capable to create much stronger Pacifista after years of trial and error.

Plus it's not even said that those Pacifista are as strong as an Emperor. Just having them clash in one panel doesn't prove that point at all. If anything Jinbei Seraphim didn't seem to be as strong as an Emperor when he confronted the Strawhats. I can get behind you not being on board with the concept. But I think you're jumping to conclusions with your argument here.

[wolfwood]

I generally dislike clones. But i'll see how it goes, so far they seem alright.

[desa]

I do wish the design were more inspired. Like truly making them a horror show of a child head on a grown up body. I like the government having doomsday weapons this late late in the story. I have always found them terrible lacking and I think having monster child soldier is a good way for them to have some threat factor.

If anything I wish that Kuma was the only PX-0 2 years ago with mechanization and lasers done to a warlord and after the timeskip and learning about the cloning efforts and lunarians we saw the PX-1 to PX-10 who are the step further of cloning warlords with special traits added to them. So skipping the kuma bots army. And hinting the idea the government kept the warlords around for a decade with the goal to crack the code of turning them into the perfect clone army.

[Zik]

I don’t dislike them being based off the warlords and having abilities from various DF users and rare races.

I actually disliked the mass produced cloned Kuma looking pacifistas a bit more. To me they degraded and watered down Kuma’s uniqueness and greatness.

I would say I would’ve preferred if the seraphim were all based off of one character (like the pacifists) that looked more like a bad guy though. Like Don Krieg lol. And if the concept was based off of a mimic devil fruit that allowed the user to mimic any ability DF or otherwise even haki and then the WG abducted that person and Vegapunk experimented on and cloned them.

[Nilitch]

@Ivotas To be fair, those things are not the final version of said prototypes, but more like hundreds of years of science ahead compared to the pacifistas. I have nothing against Vegapunk being a genius, but I'm not a fan of the concept of these clones though. And I'm not arguing that they're all as powerful as yonkous. They obviously all are different clones of different pirates. But the Mihawk one could indeed compete with the yonkous. The others could fill the gap between Marco and Mihawk. If they rival the strength of their "original", which wouldn't be a stretch to assume, then there is no illogical connection when I say that Seraphim-Mihawk is basically a yonkou. Because Mihawk himself is "basically" a yonko too, with his pal Shanks not so far from him. At this point, one panel with Teach and a mountain being slashed is accessory in my argument (even though, these points aren't pointless to point out either).

Anyway, I don't like that, but I feel like I will lazily get used to them.

And let's not even talk about having many Seraphims here... I mean, what's stoping Oda from dropping 5 or 10 Seraphim-Mihawk ? Not much, except "oh my god, the tenryubito are out of money, shit !".

@Zik @desa well, the other thing and difference with the Pacifistas and Seraphims is that there was so much room to evolve for the characters power-level wise when Kuma's PXs were introduced. I mean, we knew how much stronger the crew could get right ? But now that I know that Zoro will get around Mihawk's level that has a clone with better DNA. I must wonder. Is Seraphim-Mihawk gonna be the last swordsman villain for Zoro ?

Also, I know that I'm kinda doing this fast and jumping a bit on conclusions here and there. But in 1 or 2 years, this argument will probably become irrelevant, kinda like talking about the existence of Imu today.

[desa]

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Zik @desa well, the other thing and difference with the Pacifistas and Seraphims is that there was so much room to evolve for the characters power-level wise when Kuma's PXs were introduced. I mean, we knew how much stronger the crew could get right ? But now that I know that Zoro will get around Mihawk's level that has a clone with better DNA. I must wonder. Is Seraphim-Mihawk gonna be the last swordsman villain for Zoro ?

Also, I know that I'm kinda doing this fast and jumping a bit on conclusions here and there. But in 1 or 2 years, this argument will probably become irrelevant, kinda like talking about the existence of Imu today.

I want the government to be a danger not just the think we laugh while running from at the end of the arc so making corrupted Warlord strength clones is perfectly ok with me. It is the kind of danger I want to feel from a world spanding threat. And they are limited in number so limited deploymwnt makes sense to me.

The kuma bot massive army I find a lot more problematic because if you can massproduce this amount of fake Kuma You should be able to massively reduce piracy. The manga treats it like because the hero can beat them they dont matter anymore. But with the pacifista robots you could basically make sure no pirate get to grow that strong again. Why arent there 10 at loguetown. 20 on the archipelago. And another 20 in fishman island.

That bother me a lot more than the government finally having some heavy hitters.

[Ivotas]

@Nilitch
The Mihawk clone did not compete with an Emperor. He merely attacked him and Teach blocked it with his bare hands. That hardly counts as competing. The Seraphim obviously is strong since he's based on Mihawk but implying that he would be able to stand up to an Emperor is not more but your assumption. Nothing we've so far says he could.

[FelRes]

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

They sure can't be unbeatable. But they seem to be as strong, or maybe even somehow stronger than their original ? And one of them could potentially be as strong as Mihawk. Which means, that the WG basically bought a yonkou with their Tenryubito money. And I'm not forgetting about the rest of them which consist of a lot of pirates with bounties higher than Marco

The seraphim to me come off as brute force type enemies. They just instinctively fight by hitting fast and hard, and are basic with their abilities. The real people they're based off of obviously have more skill to them, and have to put some thought and strategy into their fighting (or defending). It's like if you've ever played an RPG and run into those special bosses that are dark archtypes of party members. They just kinda come at you like feral animals, but if you're prepared for that you should be okay even if they're intimidating.

[Ivotas]

The more I think about it the more I like the Seraphim. Not just by them having a proper build up over years, but also because it's actually the most clever way to replace the Warlords without introducing a boatload of new characters.

But what I like even more are the implications of the WG having worked on Warlord clones for years. The protypes I kinda brushed with no deeper thoughs since they were all the same and based on one Warlord that willingly cooperated. However if we go by Amazon Lily it looks like the Warlords didn't know about them. Meaning the WG was planning all along to have their own obedient copies (until Vegapunk goes 'Order 66') of the Warlords. With all the incompetence the Five Senile Stars have displayed so far, it's nice to see that the WG was at least setting up something that would make the Warlords obsolete. I like that.

[Nilitch]

@Ivotas We'll eventually see more feats I guess. But again, my point was not that he's as strong as a yonko because he attacked Teach. The point is he's as strong as a yonko because Mihawk the original is basically a yonko. And the Seraphim is supposed to be roughly a replica but with enhanced DNA.

[Nilitch]

@desa said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Zik @desa well, the other thing and difference with the Pacifistas and Seraphims is that there was so much room to evolve for the characters power-level wise when Kuma's PXs were introduced. I mean, we knew how much stronger the crew could get right ? But now that I know that Zoro will get around Mihawk's level that has a clone with better DNA. I must wonder. Is Seraphim-Mihawk gonna be the last swordsman villain for Zoro ?

Also, I know that I'm kinda doing this fast and jumping a bit on conclusions here and there. But in 1 or 2 years, this argument will probably become irrelevant, kinda like talking about the existence of Imu today.

The kuma bot massive army I find a lot more problematic because if you can massproduce this amount of fake Kuma You should be able to massively reduce piracy. The manga treats it like because the hero can beat them they dont matter anymore. But with the pacifista robots you could basically make sure no pirate get to grow that strong again. Why arent there 10 at loguetown. 20 on the archipelago. And another 20 in fishman island.

That bother me a lot more than the government finally having some heavy hitters.

Well, this too. Actually, why aren't there armies of pacifistas and/or seraphims seems to be nerfed by Oda because the tenryubito could be out of money, lol. I mean, I see no other explanation.

[wolfwood]

I really liked the visual of the kumabots

[rayleigh92]

Wasn't Kumabot's main problem they're expensive? I remember Sentomaru saying they cost as much as a battle ship. And their strength was something for the Paradise, but at Marineford their menace was the number. They needed three or four average NW captains to take them down and there were twenty of them.

[ea77]

@desa If you play One Piece World Seeker -- canon in my head as far as Navy interactions and behaviour goes -- there are pacifists and Ciper Pol agents and a hyper competent WG present

[Ivotas]

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

@rayleigh92 said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Wasn't Kumabot's main problem they're expensive? I remember Sentomaru saying they cost as much as a battle ship. And their strength was something for the Paradise, but at Marineford their menace was the number. They needed three or four average NW captains to take them down and there were twenty of them.

Considering the Pacifistas performance at Marineford and the overall pathetic peformance of Battleships (unless they are shooting innocent scholars) I'd say that Pacifistas, even the Prototypes would be a better investment.

We can even run actual numbers. There was 50 battleships surrounding Marineford. Did a single one of them do anything of significance? The Kumabots on the other hand rained down lasers like crazy on the allied pirates. Might not be enough to take on Whitebeard or his topdogs. But I agree with having a dozen of them stay at Loguetown or better yet the Twin Cape as well as at Sabaody. Would surely decimate the numbers of fodder who seemingly are too hard to keep in check.

[rayleigh92]

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

@rayleigh92 said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Wasn't Kumabot's main problem they're expensive? I remember Sentomaru saying they cost as much as a battle ship. And their strength was something for the Paradise, but at Marineford their menace was the number. They needed three or four average NW captains to take them down and there were twenty of them.

Considering the Pacifistas performance at Marineford and the overall pathetic peformance of Battleships (unless they are shooting innocent scholars) I'd say that Pacifistas, even the Prototypes would be a better investment.

We can even run actual numbers. There was 50 battleships surrounding Marineford. Did a single one of them do anything of significance? The Kumabots on the other hand rained down lasers like crazy on the allied pirates. Might not be enough to take on Whitebeard or his topdogs. But I agree with having a dozen of them stay at Loguetown or better yet the Twin Cape as well as at Sabaody. Would surely decimate the numbers of fodder who seemingly are too hard to keep in check.

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

@rayleigh92 said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Wasn't Kumabot's main problem they're expensive? I remember Sentomaru saying they cost as much as a battle ship. And their strength was something for the Paradise, but at Marineford their menace was the number. They needed three or four average NW captains to take them down and there were twenty of them.

Considering the Pacifistas performance at Marineford and the overall pathetic peformance of Battleships (unless they are shooting innocent scholars) I'd say that Pacifistas, even the Prototypes would be a better investment.

We can even run actual numbers. There was 50 battleships surrounding Marineford. Did a single one of them do anything of significance? The Kumabots on the other hand rained down lasers like crazy on the allied pirates. Might not be enough to take on Whitebeard or his topdogs. But I agree with having a dozen of them stay at Loguetown or better yet the Twin Cape as well as at Sabaody. Would surely decimate the numbers of fodder who seemingly are too hard to keep in check.

Judging by how Sentomaru rapidly reached Sabaody with a couple of PX after timeskip, it's possible they actually stationed a lot of Pacifistas at G-1 basically to keep the archipelago under surveillance.

[The Light of Shandora]

I love them, since they appeared I do hope for King to repopulate his race and for them to be their own person, not clones or mere mindless weapons.
I think the term cyborg doesn't suit them, but I'm not set on that.

Design-wise, up to now, we've seen Kuma, Boa, Jinbe and Mihawk, so lets hope to see the other warlords. Crocodile, Doffy and Moria.
For the four we have seen I do like the design, that they don't speak and only fight on command is kinda menacing and they are children, imagine them fully grown, possible near giant height and strong like their original.
Character-wise they are going to be a blank slate, so the big evil children to be feared and hopefully rescued. I don't think Oda plans to put them in prison or destroy/kill them. He has a plan for them, I'm sure of it.

The big question is, what happens when Vegapunk, the original or all the others die, who can order them around, or will they go onto a killing spree?
Luffy's Nika symbolism would fit to free them from their slumber, as I imagine them to be dormant like Kuma in his current form.

[Nilitch]

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

You seem to think that Mihawk is weaker than Shanks then. This, or you think that Buggy is actually a yonkou ? I mean, in those panels with Crocodile and Buggy, Mihawk says that he doesn't care about the title of yonkou. This scene heavily implies that he basically is the best fighter of Cross Guild. Cross Guild that is considered to be a yonkou crew in-universe.

You're being way too skeptical imo concerning Mihawk's strength. First off, Mihawk is the strongest fighter and has the highest bounty of "Cross Guild". Secondly, he was said to have better swordsman skills than Shanks himself by Marine officers. Thirdly, he's indeed not as strong as Whitebeard, but WB himself is a league above the other yonkou. You should compare him with Shanks, Luffy and Teach---- not with the man who rivaled Gol D Roger. Mihawk iirc said during his introduction on the Baratie that pirate king is a league above WSS. I mean, the comparison with Whitebeard is unfair imo.

To be honest, the skepticism that doubts Mihawk is stronger than Shanks is the same that doubted that Kaido was some kind of strongest animal/creature and not really the strongest man/human/creature. I mean, it's okay, not to be 100% positive, but your level of skepticism is way too high dude.

Also, now that Bigmom and Kaido are gone. Mihawk might as well be the strongest man in the world by a slight margin. Who knows ? I sure doubt that, but there is a huge room for confusion.

[desa]

@rayleigh92 said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Wasn't Kumabot's main problem they're expensive? I remember Sentomaru saying they cost as much as a battle ship. And their strength was something for the Paradise, but at Marineford their menace was the number. They needed three or four average NW captains to take them down and there were twenty of them.

I mean the government doesnt have a battleship shortage. Its their main way of transportation. So Kuma bots being as expensive as battle ships doesnt really help explain why they spread them for me.

Mainking them a massive group instead a single one was a mistake. Although visually I think the army of kumas look cooler than the seraphims.

[desa]

@Ivotas

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

The marine mention that Mihawk was a better swordsman then Shanks to hype him. If Shanks isnt a swordsman thats a very irrelevant statement to make. And if Shanks is a swordsman he is weaker than the strongest in the world (same way he was weaker than the strongest man since he's a man).

[Ivotas]

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

You seem to think that Mihawk is weaker than Shanks then. This, or you think that Buggy is actually a yonkou ?

I don't just think this, Mihawk himself pretty much implied that he's not Emperor level when he attacked Whitebeard when he said "he seems so close" which was both a statement of proximity as well of close in level. I repeat nothing Mihawk has shown at Marineford suggest he's even close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard almost by himself tore that place appart. He caused the most destruction, pretty much was the one thing that kept the fight of Marine HQ + Warlords (of which Mihawk is one) vs WB Pirates balanced while actually confronting all three Admirals and pushing on so far that he easily took care of Teach who needed to be saved by his crew. Meanwhile Mihawk was mostly kept at bay by one of Newgates officers. Mihawk is NOT Emperor level.

Also I don't even know why you would bring up Buggy here. He'd a gag character and him becoming an Emperor is just yet another gag. How you consider this to prove any point in actual Emperor combat abilities is beyond me.

@desa said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Ivotas

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

The marine mention that Mihawk was a better swordsman then Shanks to hype him. If Shanks isnt a swordsman thats a very irrelevant statement to make. And if Shanks is a swordsman he is weaker than the strongest in the world (same way he was weaker than the strongest man since he's a man).

Stronger swordsman doesn't equal in stronger overall fighter. I feel like we've returned to the APF of 15 years ago when people argued that Mihawk and Whitebeard are equals because one is labeled strongest swordsman and the other strongest man. That's not how this works.

But honestly, if you guys think that Mihawk is that strong then feel free to think so. I definitely am not interested to delve into another power wankery argument. My main point was that Seraphim's are critisized for something that is based on one own's assumption rather than on something that is a clear fact. In other words the dislike for the Seraphim is selfmade and less something based on bad writing.

[danie]

@desa said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Ivotas

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

The marine mention that Mihawk was a better swordsman then Shanks to hype him. If Shanks isnt a swordsman thats a very irrelevant statement to make. And if Shanks is a swordsman he is weaker than the strongest in the world (same way he was weaker than the strongest man since he's a man).

Shanks is obviously a swordsman but that doesn't mean that's all he is. I think using haki at a certain level is no longer swordsmanship, kinda like using a devil fruit power in conjunction with a sword. Mihawk is a better swordsman than Shanks but Shanks has stronger haki than him. That's why he is stronger.

[desa]

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

Stronger swordsman doesn't equal in stronger overall fighter. I feel like we've returned to the APF of 15 years ago when people argued that Mihawk and Whitebeard are equals because one is labeled strongest swordsman and the other strongest man. That's not how this works.

I mean I can 100% see Oda go well Shanks heavily relies on his swordskills and is the overall better fighter. But he doesnt count as the strongest swordsman because the way he applies ahaki disqualify him. Which I think makes the title Zoro is pursuing trash if its with Mihawk on such bs technicalities. His goal is to beat anyone that can claim to be a swordsman not a bs technicality of well you use haki weirdly so it doesnt count.

Either Shanks should have moved from relying on swords skills a decade ago and he can be 10 times stonger than Mihawk if he wants or it is still the a massive component of his stlyle and Mihawk should be stronger.

I was always hoping Oda would go with the first option. But the marine statement would be dumb because there's no point to mention Shanks sword skills if its not an important component to his style.

I dread Oda doing the fanservice thing of "ohohoh they are both awesome swordsman where you dont know which is stronger... isnt that cool?" and people will of course be delighted by it while I will get annoyed there can be a swordsman stronger than you without when you are the strongest swordsman. I think it goes against what Zoro is after.

But honestly, if you guys think that Mihawk is that strong then feel free to think so. I definitely am not interested to delve into another power wankery argument. My main point was that Seraphim's are critisized for something that is based on one own's assumption rather than on something that is a clear fact. In other words the dislike for the Seraphim is selfmade and less something based on bad writing.

I mean thats like someone being annoyed at Blackbeard portrayal because thats not great for a final villain and going we dont know if he will be. And someone going its irrelevant because IM or Akainu will be the final villain. The problem isnt that either is talking about irrelvant info. The problem is just that you dont agree about what the story has told so far. In this case wether or not Shanks and Mihawk are close in power.

[danie]

I really hope we learn how Mihawk got the tittle of strongest swordsman... i guess it has to do with getting a top tier "black blade" considering Roger had a top tier sword but it wasn't a "black blade", and he was never called the strongest swordsman...

I would be best if Shanks ends up having a devil fruit power... I understand thinking haki should be considered part of swordsmanship but a devil fruit power? Never. It would end the Shanks vs. Mihawk nonsense and it would distinguish him more from Roger and Rayleigh. They got the swordsman/haki master thing covered. Not to mention it would make it more digestible how a one armed swordsman became an emperor... A devil fruit power would make up for the lost arm and align with more with the other emperors.

[Nilitch]

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

You seem to think that Mihawk is weaker than Shanks then. This, or you think that Buggy is actually a yonkou ?

I don't just think this, Mihawk himself pretty much implied that he's not Emperor level when he attacked Whitebeard when he said "he seems so close" which was both a statement of proximity as well of close in level. I repeat nothing Mihawk has shown at Marineford suggest he's even close to Whitebeard. Whitebeard almost by himself tore that place appart. He caused the most destruction, pretty much was the one thing that kept the fight of Marine HQ + Warlords (of which Mihawk is one) vs WB Pirates balanced while actually confronting all three Admirals and pushing on so far that he easily took care of Teach who needed to be saved by his crew. Meanwhile Mihawk was mostly kept at bay by one of Newgates officers. Mihawk is NOT Emperor level.

Also I don't even know why you would bring up Buggy here. He'd a gag character and him becoming an Emperor is just yet another gag. How you consider this to prove any point in actual Emperor combat abilities is beyond me.

@desa said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Ivotas

@Ivotas said in What do you think about the Seraphims ?:

@Nilitch
And again, that's jumping to conclusions. It was never said that Mihawk is as strong as an Emperor. Just because he was dueling with Shanks back in the day it doesn't mean that they are equal. Shanks has only become an Emperor 6 years ago, was it? The dude surely has gotten a lot stronger from someone who was an apprentice to guys like Rayleigh to now being an Emperor, who might aswell be superior to Rayleigh now. Not to mention that Marineford is proof that not a single Warlord was in Whitebeards league. Mihawk might be the strongest Warlord. But there's nothing indicating that he's as strong as an Emperor.

The marine mention that Mihawk was a better swordsman then Shanks to hype him. If Shanks isnt a swordsman thats a very irrelevant statement to make. And if Shanks is a swordsman he is weaker than the strongest in the world (same way he was weaker than the strongest man since he's a man).

Stronger swordsman doesn't equal in stronger overall fighter. I feel like we've returned to the APF of 15 years ago when people argued that Mihawk and Whitebeard are equals because one is labeled strongest swordsman and the other strongest man. That's not how this works.

But honestly, if you guys think that Mihawk is that strong then feel free to think so. I definitely am not interested to delve into another power wankery argument. My main point was that Seraphim's are critisized for something that is based on one own's assumption rather than on something that is a clear fact. In other words the dislike for the Seraphim is selfmade and less something based on bad writing.

Fine, no one disagreed with you that Whitebeard is stronger than Mihawk. But as I said, Whitebeard was the rival of Roger. Not a mere yonkou. It's like comparing Rayleigh to Roger. At least comparing Rayleigh/Mihawk/Shanks isn't silly.

The point with Buggy is that "Cross Guild" is considered a yonkou crew by the Marines and Mihawk is the strongest person in "Cross Guild". Which means that he's KIND OF a yonkou wether you like it or not. Yonkou-level doesn't mean "being Whitebeard", it means "being a yonkou". Except for the Buggy joke obviously.

Unless Oda starts introducing stands or nen beasts-like stuff associated with haki. Then there is no reason to think that Shanks level of haki disqualifies him for any title.

And please, let's not get into the "this is power level wanking" when we're just discussing what the story is telling us. If you wanna call someone that, I'll send you a few threads of different forums reminding you what "power level wanking" looks like.

My dislike of the Seraphims is indeed not based on "it wasn't properly introduced" but on my contempt of hyper powerful clones. I think it's a lazy way to introduce powerful "characters". Mihawk's strength is connected to that because his Seraphim-clone is supposed to be "Mihawk but with enhanced DNA". And we won't agree on how strong Mihawk is, so let's just end it here. The manga will eventually show you and us more anyway.

[Daz]

I'm mixed on them. On the one hand the Marines/WG definetely needed to up their threat game for the final conflict, and assuming they stay in the WGs hands the seraphim fit that bill. And with the preceding escalation of OPverse superscience, it's not like this comes out of nowhere.
Still, it can't help remind me of other mangas, where the antagonists whip out superpowered, loyal, possibly mindless mooks who've been hiding in the basement at the last second - the Naruto Ninja Zombies are one example, but It also evokes Full Metal Alchemist and Samurai Deeper Kyo, off the top of my head.

Also the jump from "Seraphim are introduced" 9 chapters ago to "Seraphim are a super prominent fixture of the very next island feels kinda rapid, but then again I could say the same for the progression from "Kuma is a cyborg, here to collect the head of Luffy for the WG!!!" to "Mass-produced Kumabots, also the real now Kuma helps the Straw Hats escape!!" 25 chapters later.