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    Final Fantasy XIV Online

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    • tatermoog
      tatermoog
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      if anyone's been thinking about testing the FFXIV waters, now is a pretty good time to do so. Ton of new folks in the game lately, either from disaffection with WoW or excitement for the upcoming expansion, and still one of the more welcoming veteran player-bases around. Free trial has over a hundred hours of content pretty easy. Game definitely has a rough start, but have yet to find someone who didn't love the story through the last expansion.

      Just throwing it out there as someone who kept far away from MMOs and have grown to love the story and characters of XIV more than any other game I've played.

      Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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      • Robby
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        I played it for 40 or 50 hours a few months ago and I just had to give up on it. It was doing nothing for me outside of the visuals. Everyone swears it gets good later and I believe it but… I'd just had enough.

        I wanted to fall in love with it but it wasn't doing it for me.

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        • tatermoog
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          think i've said it before, but it took me three tries for it to stick

          i'm not someone who will make broad defenses of A Realm Reborn. It's understandable why it's not as good as the rest, but…it's still not as good as the rest. I New Game+ed it a while back after finishing everything and took it slow and actually found it charming, but it feels very much like a ps3 game, and not many of those have stood the test of time.

          Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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          • tatermoog
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            Took some time off work and played nothing but FFXIV Endwalker. Finished the main story. It's not in the crazy upper echelon of ShB, but sticks the hell out of the landing. Also, Masayoshi Soken is the best thing in video game music right now, maybe just in games period.

            Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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            • DarthAsthma
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              I've barely played error 2002 is too stronk. Hope this weekend is better for Endwalker.

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              • DarthAsthma
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                Got some time into Endwalker. I'm so happy I gave this a chance over a year ago. I thought I was done with MMOs after Wrath of the Lichking but FF14 really taught me that my preconceptions of how MMOs had to be were very narrow and mostly informed by WoW alone(like being unending timesink grinds you will always fall behind on if you can't no life them). Getting over my prejudice in this case let me experience one of the best stories FF has to offer.
                Also for people that are looking to get into it you're basically signing up for 5 JRPG length games now. Big commitment for that but I do want to emphasize that there is no fomo or falling behind in ff14. It's different in that way from other MMOs I've touched and it can be played very much at your own pace and up to HW for free. Wouldn't surprise me if they'll hand out stormblood in 1-2 years for free as well that's basically 3 JRPGs for free.

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                • tatermoog
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                  A few months removed from finishing Endwalker, and I'd say I appear to be in a subsection of folks who enjoyed it but didn't think it measured up to Shadowbringers. Still, I still have zero qualms with declaring FFXIV (and Shadowbringers specifically) my favorite Final Fantasy, and even if EW didn't click as much for me, I loved every minute existing in that world again.

                  Even better, every indication is they're going to tamp down on the massive world-shaking events for the next expansion and get back to a little exploration/adventure, and I am fully on board for that.

                  Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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                  • DarthAsthma
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                    I'm very curious what the first 3 patches will look like for EW. Also curious how they'll readjust to feedback regarding their new quest making toys. Cause on a gameplay level you really had that feel that they had a bit too much fun using the walk with scion stuff bordering being obnoxious.
                    Personally am part of the camp that puts EW and ShB on the same level and both kind of really hit home for me in the way that really drives home for me often it's enough for a game to truly stand out by building that one moment. For ShB it was the very end(not that there aren't other fun moments in it but having seen many people go through it, it really shows how everything builds up to it you forget the more dragging parts of raktika or the tempest). EW to me hit 3 very beautiful moments but it really was kind of also harvesting from 4 games before it.
                    The "walk" after elpis I think was my moment of the year in games last year and it still blows my mind how beautiful they incorporated answers(the song/lyrics) in it, second moment was after trial 2 that one hit somewhat personal to me but I think it was a very satisfying direction they chose given all the countless theories around that boss's intentions. The last moment is in trial 3 right when footfalls/song of hope plays with the small cutscene calling back to how long this journey has been. Soken is just a gift to 14.

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                    • tatermoog
                      tatermoog @DarthAsthma
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                      Soken is the best thing in video games today, period.

                      I still go back to fight Shinryu just to listen to the music.

                      Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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                      • Johnny B. Decent
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                        So, let's say I want to get into XIV....

                        First, is it better on PC, or on a console?

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                        • Robby
                          Robby @Johnny B. Decent
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                          @Johnny-B-Decent Like most MMOs It's 100% designed for keyboard and mouse and having access to a million keys for abilities.

                          But your console is guaranteed to run it smoothly and you can used to holding a shoulder button to toggle..

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                          • Johnny B. Decent
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                            Ah, good. And how dependent are you on other players for things, Robby?

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                            • Hakase
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                              @Johnny-B-Decent said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                              Ah, good. And how dependent are you on other players for things, Robby?

                              @Robby said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                              @Johnny-B-Decent Like most MMOs It's 100% designed for keyboard and mouse and having access to a million keys for abilities.

                              But your console is guaranteed to run it smoothly and you can used to holding a shoulder button to toggle..

                              No this is kind of wrong to say.
                              FF14 is specifically designed to have 100% well functioning controller support and it's not just lip service but a main pillar of its design. Like the developers are very aware about the maximum number of available buttons on controller and have over the years reworked jobs by culling skills/folding them into each other to make space for new additions to jobs as new expansion release.
                              The only thing that would get tedious is typing to other players.

                              But people that generally start out and get into 14 generally tend to focus on the main story anyway and are quite far away from content(like 5 entire games ~50h away before you'd really need it) that would make them communicate all that much with other players.

                              Take it from someone that plays this game with a controller on PC(I started my free trial on console and moved over to pc so I played the first ~100 hours fully on console too) since it's more comfortable everything can be played with controller perfectly fine. It's to the point that even world first racers for the hardest fight don't mind playing with controller. I say this also as someone that played WoW for a couple years and was very used to keyboard/mouse for MMOs.

                              If you decide to get into the social aspect of ff14 just connect a keyboard to your console for typing only which should work fine.

                              Now that said PC has one single advantage which is mod/plugin support something that is a greyzone for FF14 and something most players don't really care to get into. But you get access to like tools to make your game look nicer and quality of life things are usually available with plugins.

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                              • Johnny B. Decent
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                                I kind of want to be one of those little munchkin people just to become a Dark Knight or Samurai.

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                                • Hakase
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                                  @Johnny-B-Decent said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                  Ah, good. And how dependent are you on other players for things, Robby?

                                  I forgot to answer but as of this patch you can do almost all the main story content within the free trial solo if you want as the developers patched in CPU controlled party support for all the main story related dungeons(there are side story related dungeons that aren't supported).
                                  The one exception to this might be a handful of 8 player fights if I remember it correctly but you usually use the auto matching feature and the fights aren't so challenging within the main story so that communication is needed so people usually just silently beat them.

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                                  • Johnny B. Decent
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                                    Sweet! The only other MMORPG I play is The Elder Scrolls Online and being dependent on others to be there when you're hunting a World Boss or whatever event the yearly chapter has is so damn annoying.

                                    I beat Molag Bal one on one, god damn it. An overgrown crab is gonna hand me my ass without help?

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                                    • Hakase
                                      Hakase @Johnny B. Decent
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                                      @Johnny-B-Decent said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                      Sweet! The only other MMORPG I play is The Elder Scrolls Online and being dependent on others to be there when you're hunting a World Boss or whatever event the yearly chapter has is so damn annoying.

                                      I beat Molag Bal one on one, god damn it. An overgrown crab is gonna hand me my ass without help?

                                      I never played ESO but go into FF14 without too many MMO expectations.
                                      I was quite surprised when I started coming from WoW because it wasn't super social until endgame.
                                      For like the first 200 hours it was kind of like a singleplayer jrpg with MMO combat until I caught up with the mainstory. Like my entire experience for all the multiplayer parts back then was zone into the dungeon/trial, people say "hello/hi" at the start, we beat the dungeon/boss and people say "gg thanks for party" and then it was a singleplayer game again.

                                      I started during covid too so I'm part of a newer wave of players.

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                                      • Robby
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                                        @Hakase said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                        FF14 is specifically designed to have 100% well functioning controller support and it's not just lip service but a main pillar of its design. Like the developers are very aware about the maximum number of available buttons on controller and have over the years reworked jobs by culling skills/folding them into each other to make space for new additions to jobs as new expansion release.
                                        The only thing that would get tedious is typing to other players.

                                        My experience when I played was I had way more abilities and items than slots and had to keep juggling and reassigning things to make them fit into a sensible toggle layout... while on a keyboard those would just all be instantly accessible number keys.

                                        In particular the crafting skills got extremely ridiculous, like 30 different abilities for blacksmithing or leatherworking or plant gathering or mining and there is just no way that was designed for a 4-8 ability setup and was extremely clunky and you had to keep restructuring it constantly... especially since on PC you could set up a macro for those endless repetition levelling crafting's.

                                        Maybe they've improved it since but I didn't play it that long ago.

                                        Same thing with the Dragon Age Games. 2 and 3 were designed with a controller in mind, but part 1 was entirely built around a keyboard and having a dozen different abilities on command that had a bunch of synergies and a lot of that got lost when they simplified the combat for consoles in the later games.

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                                        • Hakase
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                                          @Robby said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                          @Hakase said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                          FF14 is specifically designed to have 100% well functioning controller support and it's not just lip service but a main pillar of its design. Like the developers are very aware about the maximum number of available buttons on controller and have over the years reworked jobs by culling skills/folding them into each other to make space for new additions to jobs as new expansion release.
                                          The only thing that would get tedious is typing to other players.

                                          My experience when I played was I had way more abilities and items than slots and had to keep juggling and reassigning things to make them fit into a sensible toggle layout... while on a keyboard those would just all be instantly accessible number keys.

                                          In particular the crafting skills got extremely ridiculous, like 30 different abilities for blacksmithing or leatherworking or plant gathering or mining and there is just no way that was designed for a 4-8 ability setup and was extremely clunky and you had to keep restructuring it constantly... especially since on PC you could set up a macro for those endless repetition levelling crafting's.

                                          Maybe they've improved it since but I didn't play it that long ago.

                                          Same thing with the Dragon Age Games. 2 and 3 were designed with a controller in mind, but part 1 was entirely built around a keyboard and having a dozen different abilities on command that had a bunch of synergies and a lot of that got lost when they simplified the combat for consoles in the later games.

                                          Honestly it just sounds to me that you might not have set up your controller properly or maybe you struggled with getting used to the crossbar setup? Cause keep juggling and reassigning things just doesn't really sound like the actual controller experience. In actual button presses it shouldn't be super different to PC as well cause even on a keyboard you wouldn't just bind every single action to a different key and instead opt for key modifier shortcuts (shit + "key" or crtl + "key") to keep it all within reach.

                                          Crossbar is basically that idea with really only 1 modifier being a double tap instead of another hold + "key", since on PC you wouldn't have double tap modifiers. The rest kind of mirrors onto controller in idea neatly imo.That said it's perfectly understandable to not like intuitively get the crossbar setup you don't really learn that through the game itself, I myself had to look at a controller setup tutorial.

                                          If you setup your controller properly you have easy access to 48 buttons. Job design keeps buttons generally around ~36 with like a good chunk that are like cooldown(1 min, 2 min etc) that you don't have to press constantly. Your most regular buttons are generally limited to like 20 something. Crafters/gatherers don't come near hitting the crossbar cap.

                                          spoiler

                                          This is how my bars looks on bard which I believe uses slightly above the average amount of buttons among jobs.

                                          Main bar is usually just your core rotation or other very important buttons like core rotational buffs.
                                          Double tap bars I usually put on defensive cooldowns/enemy debuffs that are basically use in a situation you know will come up and then forget for 1-3 minutes(very rarely 1 min) until the next situation comes up.
                                          The L2+R2/R2+L2 modifier I usually use for my AOE rotation. I also mirror Set 8 on almost all jobs just so I don't have to actively think about what shoulder button I hold first. It's worth pointing out that in addition to that I'm also doubling up on some buttons just for ease of use and I don't even use all the buttons in my double tap bars. Basically there is more than enough buttons available that have to be easy accessible.
                                          And again this comes from me starting out in WoW and being massively used to keyboard/mouse.

                                          If there is interest I can also share my crafter setup which uses a decent chunk less of available bars too.

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                                          • Robby
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                                            @Hakase said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                            Cause keep juggling and reassigning things just doesn't really sound like the actual controller experience.

                                            Every time I switched to a new job class, and that class shared some of the exact same basic skills I had to reassign them into a format that was comfortable and made sense, especially if the most basic skills appeared in a different order or I just wanted something off the rotation entirely.

                                            I understood the swapping and trigger memchanic just fine.

                                            What you're showing is literally mapping 44 different abilities into a 4 button setup.

                                            SHifting once to get double is fine, I do that in plenty of other games all the time, but double shifting, or double shifting hold combo, and then holding alternating buttons to access four dozen skills is ridiculous. Once it got to the point where there were three layers of skills I started really disliking it, especially since the combat was very repetitive and basically demanded you repeat a pattern sequence regularly, especially if you were doing any kind of buffs or setup.

                                            On keyboard you could just slot it to the number keys and and have 10 of them ready to go without a toggle. 20 with a toggle. And 10-12 should be all you ever reasonably need to begin with since things like using items or running away should be keyed to something else entirely anyway.

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                                            • Hakase
                                              Hakase @Robby
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                                              @Robby said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                              @Hakase said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                              Cause keep juggling and reassigning things just doesn't really sound like the actual controller experience.

                                              Every time I switched to a new job class, and that class shared some of the exact same basic skills I had to reassign them into a format that was comfortable and made sense, especially if the most basic skills appeared in a different order or I just wanted something off the rotation entirely.

                                              I understood the swapping and trigger memchanic just fine.
                                              And what you're showing is literally mapping 44 different abilities into a 4 button setup.

                                              SHifting once to get double is fine, I do that in games like Warframe all the time, but double shifting, or double shifting hold combo, and then holding alternating buttons to access four dozen skills is ridiculous. Once it got to the point where there were three layers of skills I started really disliking it, especially since the combat was very repetitive and basically demanded you repeat a pattern sequence regularly, especially if you were doing any kind of buffs or setup.

                                              On keyboard you could just slot it to the number keys and and have 10 of them ready to go without a toggle. 20 with a toggle. And 10-12 should be all you ever reasonably need to begin with.

                                              I mean 10 is not that different to 8 on a controller. The main takeaway should be it maps rather similar to a keyboard setup once you learn it. Of course I'm not going to argue if you have a controller preference but to say ff14 is 100% designed for keyboard and mouse just simply isn't true.

                                              If you learn it, it's remarkably similar to keyboard.

                                              As for setting up bars for each new job that's for sure work but that's kind of the same in any MMO. When I played wow and started an alt it also always took the extra work to customize UI/Hotbars to that class.
                                              FF14 in many ways saves you some work with certain macro commands due job design being similar among some roles. Like my tank and healer bars basically follow the same logic/layout.

                                              I will say the single role I would probably still switch to play KBM for is healer mostly because with plugins it's hard to beat mouse over healing. That said I've healed savage on controller just fine before that would be basically just a preference if I ever committed hard to playing healer.

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                                              • Robby
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                                                I don't even like using keyboards for gaming. I kind of hate them in fact.

                                                But MMOs are mostly designed around them. A 12+ skill hotbar might have eventually been molded to console, but it was not intended for it.

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                                                • Hakase
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                                                  I mean sure but ff14 is in fact not, it's literally designed for both(and with good reason given the Japanese market just isn't very PC friendly). Like pretty sure if I cared to I could find interviews about them specifically referencing developing for controller and that being a constraint they're always aware of for jobs.
                                                  Additionally it also ignores MMO history cause ff14 lineage tracks back to ff11 which was specifically designed for console first and then was ported to PC. It's a very different MMO trajectory than pretty much the rest of the genre.

                                                  Again have your preference that's totally cool. But I think as someone that has learned to play with both and also is familiar with some other MMOs, giving me like the insight to judge this from multiple angles I do have to insist that it's just factually incorrect to say 14 is 100% designed best for KBM. It's designed to work immensely well for both minus the communication aspect. Again I played WoW for like 7 years KBM exclusive so it's not like I went into 14 with a heavy preference for controller at all.

                                                  Also it's not like I wanna be insistent on this just to win the argument but I think painting FF14 as like KBM best/centric is just a false representation of the game that might skew people on a choice that is mostly up to preference and not really a question of functionality.

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                                                    Fine, they designed it for controllers.

                                                    Given that they still expect you to juggle 30+ abilities at a time, and the crafting systems demand a repetitive sequence of a dozen inputs (that you can't macro on consoles ) hundreds or thousands of times taking countless hours of pure brain-dead tedium across multiple near identical crafting job classes, they did a lousy job.

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                                                      @Robby said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                                      Fine, they designed it for controllers.

                                                      Given that they still expect you to juggle 30+ abilities at a time, and the crafting systems demand a repetitive sequence of a dozen inputs (that you can't macro on consoles ) hundreds or thousands of times taking countless hours of pure brain-dead tedium across multiple near identical crafting job classes, they did a lousy job.

                                                      You can macro on consoles anything that you can macro on pc and it's the same tedium for both.
                                                      If you're talking about writing your own out of game button press macros to automate the entire process on pc sure you can do that but let's say that actually takes quite a bit more finessing on your part with press timings than probably anyone that isn't a programmer would care to fiddle around with. But also it's strictly speaking against the game TOS if one cares about that(it would fall under botting).
                                                      The crafting system is just generally love or hate it. I personally can't be arsed with that content beyond getting the ability to repair myself. So yeah I find it boring too.

                                                      As for your 30 abilities at a time complaint still weird cause it's the same on pc you're juggling the same number of buttons regardless. Again the only big difference is that one modifier is a double tap otherwise it translates the same and number of inputs to memorize. And if I can mention my own subjective optimizing experience if you're like hotkeying on PC to minimize weird hand acrobatics you'll at least work with at least 2-3 modifiers as well(in my case it used to be shift/crtl/alt).

                                                      Also if your premise is that the number of inputs to juggle is too high to be suited to controller it seems a very misguided one cause that generally doesn't factor into the question if you actually think about it.
                                                      Like think fighting games like Tekken which explode the number of things you actually have to juggle with over an MMO relating to how inputs translate to actions and I've yet to see anyone make the argument that games like that are best on keyboard. And you have way more in depth input acrobatics to deal with than double tap to activate hotbar 5 as well.

                                                      Just seems like weird prejudice if I'm honest. It does work well if one can look beyond their own preference.
                                                      Like heck there is a reason why even at the highest level of play people are good on controller, it just doesn't matter.
                                                      And also it's not like I don't think there are actual genres that right now seem to only work well on PC and no developers actually have found good adaptions to controller for them like MOBAs, RTS.

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                                                        MMO’s never seemed appealing to me, one of the most important thing for me in a video game is the combat system, MMO’s just seem like standing in one place and clicking an attack button multiple times and then going to the next enemy to do it again, I like dodging, rolling, multiple ways of attacking etc,

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                                                          @Shiebs said in General Square Enix Thread II:

                                                          MMO’s never seemed appealing to me, one of the most important thing for me in a video game is the combat system, MMO’s just seem like standing in one place and clicking an attack button multiple times and then going to the next enemy to do it again, I like dodging, rolling, multiple ways of attacking etc,

                                                          I feel like notions like these seem to stem from a place of ignorance given you're assuming a whole lot of things on here. Like this is the equivalent statement to just assuming every action game is just a mindless button masher, I prefer to actually think about stuff when I'm playing. 🙄

                                                          Generally it's probably safer to assume if a thing has a lot of players it probably has some sort of legitimate draw to it. Also to be clear not an attempt to make you change your mind on mmos it's more like maybe you'll think about why you have these assumptions.

                                                          Like there is a lot of stuff that doesn't appeal to me either but I also don't tend to try to make assumptions about things I never played before or have an actual understanding off.
                                                          It's the type of attitude that seemingly would close one off on things that might be in your ballpark.
                                                          But dunno maybe that's just me, having an open mind about things has generally led me to enjoying a lot of new type of games over the years and just the experience of giving a thing a real try can be quite interesting in itself too.

                                                          Like with that attitude I'd probably would have wrote off monster hunter as a grind fest, roguelikes as a frustrating exercise in just going through the motions, or souls as masochistic self torture etc etc.

                                                          Also kind of purposely left out any attempt of dispelling the notion you've put forth since the answer is a lot more layered and complex than seems suited for the starting point that seems to assume that primary engagement factor of an MMO is combat against world mobs.

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                                                          • tatermoog
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                                                            the World First on last XIV Ultimate (hardest content) had two controller players in their 8-man.

                                                            Pretty universal the team did a damned good job on controller utility. shrug

                                                            Hang in there, Kierkegaard.

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                                                              I don't really have the time to commit to a static in FF14 that raids regularly and usually just play savage through party finder in irregular binge sessions and it has worked surprisingly well for the last 2 years now, but the new entry fight to the tier has been really brain melting for me.
                                                              I consider myself very average too at the game so it's been interesting to feel like you're not even good enough to make it past the entry fight.
                                                              That said from what I heard it seems like they difficulty curve is just really wonky for this tier, so it's a mental thing to get over. I'm also guessing that this will be a thing that will just click through practice like learning to balance yourself while riding a bike but whew. Since I started I never really had a mechanic like that where I feel like I understood it but just struggled to execute it so much.

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                                                              • Cinder
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                                                                Hey guys, I wanted to revive the FF14 discussions.

                                                                I've been subbed since 1.0 but I've since become a bit of a casual, haven't been in the raiding scene for a few years now. I adored Endwalker, and since I no longer have a group I occasionally just pop in for seasonal events or new patches.

                                                                I'm on Excalibur if you ever want to hit me up for some stuff. I'm also interested in attending Fanfest next year if people were interested in that.

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                                                                • Johnny B. Decent
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                                                                  Johnny B. Decent
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                                                                  So, is the game's story "over" now with Endwalker?

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                                                                  • Cinder
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                                                                    The original story of the game with the conflict between Hydaelyn and Zodiark has concluded with Endwalker. Although the current expansion is still called Endwalker, a new story is starting up and will probably get ramped up in time for the next expansion and the start of big new journey. Warrior of Light returning to their roots as an adventurer!

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                                                                    • Hakase
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                                                                      Beat the current raid tier through party finder 8 weeks in of bashing my had on weekends against party finder and outside trying to raid one ulti I think I'm ready to get back to a much more casual way of enjoying the game although I feel like i've been as casual as I could be just trying some more content this expansion.
                                                                      While participating in two raid tiers now was pretty interesting it's definitely not the time commitment I want to have on my weekends every time a new raid releases.
                                                                      I think after seeing one of the ultimates(I might not even beat it depending on how big my sense about the actual time commitment turns out to be) I'm ready to have it be a single player game again for me where I just check in on the story whenever a new expansion drops.

                                                                      There is a lot of exciting stuff coming with the next expansion most of all a graphics rework and Yoshi P has been dropping cryptic hints about a big event at the end of this expansions patch cycle. It will be interesting to at least follow along into the start of this next arc although there is definitely also a lingering feeling for me that I got 3ish years of great on and off playing out of the game and maybe it's also time to move on and give something else a try to take the place of my comfort game in between other releases.

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                                                                      • Cinder
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                                                                        The game was designed to encourage you to take a break and play other games which is a really healthy way to go about it. With where life is I don't think I'd have the patience to do any ultimates with party finder, so props to you for going through it. I just finished the Halloween seasonal myself... this is like ultra casual. 🙃

                                                                        In other news, that spinoff manga Academia Eorzea is entering its final chapter. Hope that gets localized and brought to the west.

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                                                                        • Hakase
                                                                          Hakase @Cinder
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                                                                          @Cinder
                                                                          To be honest my expectations right now are I will fail and kinda give up somewhere in the fight.
                                                                          Just wanted to give it a try once, but I also need to make sure that I can like dedicate 1 day each week for like 6 weeks cause I heard ultimate is very much a marathon so I don't wanna like play it like this savage tier where I took some weeks break off raiding after the 6th and 7th fight.

                                                                          I will say my first tier raiding experience in ew was a lot smoother than this current tier which made me evaluate raiding again and the actual time investment. Apparently the difficulty does scale up slightly with every tier release. Assuming first tiers are about the same I'd say that's where my comfort difficulty is for the time investment it asks.

                                                                          I do really appreciate the casual nature of 14 where you can drop in and out easily.

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                                                                          • Greg
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                                                                            Robby is correct about the controller.

                                                                            I've played several thousand hours and have perfected the layout for each job and still it's cumbersome compared to the buttons 'just being there' on a keyboard. It's not designed for controller. It's designed to work on a controller.

                                                                            When an action-oriented game demands that a thumb be removed from a movement input control in order to input a separate command, it becomes less than effective.

                                                                            This can and will be alleviated in part by the PS5 pro controller with its back buttons that can stand in for d-pad input. At that time it will be better, but still not ideal.

                                                                            The crossbar wings are not suitable because they require constant input. Meanwhile, the toggles are restrictive because they often require the removal of a thumb from the movement stick since the shape buttons are usually (but not always) best-served as action inputs leaving little to no space for toggle placement anywhere but d-pad.

                                                                            If each standard combo had perhaps one fewer branch (both single mob and group mob combinations) then controller becomes somewhat more viable, but doesn't look like that will ever happen....although....SMN is pretty damn close atm.

                                                                            That said, I'm really lucky with my beloved NIN as I have an absolute stellar hotbar-switching macro that makes mudra a dream and absolute pleasure to not only input, but also manage.

                                                                            This....of course....is all said within the framework of someone pursuing at least Extreme content. Anything below that and agreeably, no, it does not matter and, yes, a controller can be easily set-up for easy (not optimal) play.

                                                                            To frame my thoughts, I do Sav content and don't have a problem, but I do recognize that sometimes it would be so, so, so much easier with full access to the buttons if I was smart enough to play on a keyboard, which I am not.

                                                                            This is entirely unrelated but....it's baffling how much I do not care about the game's story or characters.

                                                                            I'm not here to say they're uninteresting or boring characters, I want to like them.

                                                                            But how the game restricts story progress behind the double punch of time-wasting fetch quests [that equate to button pushes because the game doesn't have an open world 'action' system outside jump puzzles] and HORRIFICALLY DIRECTED cut-scenes.

                                                                            I don't want to unfairly deride anything in the game but the cut-scenes are unwatchable. They are a massacre of human time. It's as if anytime anyone says any line, the camera must cut to a character and each one of them must perform an emote IN ITS ENTIRETY before moving to the next person for yet another generic emote. This is why the only cutscenes I ever watch in the game (not kidding either) are the Manderville things purely bc they have original animations.

                                                                            I think other than that, when you found Thancred in the wilds one time he actually had something resembling a mo-capped cutscene and that was good too, but everything else is the epitome of time-wasting. Not to mention how every scene, no matter how small or big, has some superfluous scene-establishing camera pan or pans. This is unnecessary because the player has traveled there themself. They know where they are so there's no need to establish a scene for upwards of 10-15 seconds.

                                                                            Every expansion I tell myself this will be the one I watch the cut-scenes and 12 seconds into an establishing shot I instantly just go back to skipping because it's so absurd and an egregious waste of time.

                                                                            That said, I do follow the story.

                                                                            I follow multiple lore accounts and while the lore of the world is interesting, I really do not care about the Scions at all. Except kinda-sorta Estinien. But....that's pretty much because he shuts up most of the time anyway.

                                                                            Oh, and Emet. That dude f***ing rules. Anytime he opens his mouth I actually feel like listening.

                                                                            No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                            • Daz
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                                                                              A question from someone who's never played FF14, but is it some sort of multiversal FF crossover-thing? There seems to be a lot of stuff from older games in the series in it, which I know is like FF tradition, but here it's like, the entire Crystal Tower from FF3, or suddenly Ruby Weapon from FF7, or Ivalice, or literally a boss battle with Exdeath

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                                                                                @Daz Yes but no. Emphasis on the no...for now.

                                                                                Answering in-depth would be somewhat spoilery for the story of FF14 itself but it's safe to say that while many themes/characters/villains/items/songs/locations are present, they are unfortunately not one in the same or at least the majority of them are not.

                                                                                They exist largely for the nostalgia factor and to ge people who loved the originals, interested in investing in FF14. Some feel more justified in their use than others and fighting up an actual rendition of Kefka's tower was indeed euphoric, but most of the time the stuff exists as a stand-in for what just might as well be something unique to begin with.

                                                                                No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                                • sgamer82
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                                                                                  @Daz said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

                                                                                  A question from someone who's never played FF14, but is it some sort of multiversal FF crossover-thing? There seems to be a lot of stuff from older games in the series in it, which I know is like FF tradition, but here it's like, the entire Crystal Tower from FF3, or suddenly Ruby Weapon from FF7, or Ivalice, or literally a boss battle with Exdeath

                                                                                  The game's main story stands largely on its own without much from prior FFs doing more than maybe offering some influence, such as the Ascians being named for things in FF12, Bahamut being a Thing, or dungeons named for prior FF dungeons like the Towers of Zot and Babil from 4. The main thing I can think from prior FFs that hits the plot is the Crystal Tower, a set of Alliance Raids (24-man dungeons) from base game/A Realm Reborn, which gets folded into the main plot starting with the next-to-most recent expansion, Shadowbringers.

                                                                                  Side content gets more referential. Some being minor, such as an FF9 boss in the Heavensward raid content (which uses FF9 music throughout) some blatant, such as the Warring Triad of FF6 being a series of bosses you can fight in Heavensward, or just flat out fighting Chaos in one battle in a series of bosses set to simulate beings from other worlds and/or in-universe fiction.

                                                                                  You don't need to know past Final Fantasies, but it helps.

                                                                                  Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.

                                                                                  Statler: No you haven't.

                                                                                  Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!

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                                                                                  • Johnny B. Decent
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                                                                                    You can also fight Nybeth from Tactics Ogre, too.

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                                                                                    • Greg
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                                                                                      And yet, the majority of that content still isn't the original universes' versions of those elements.

                                                                                      I was trying to keep it spoiler free but since the Pandoa's Box was opened, there are certain elements that say they came from 'another world' and sometimes, it's possible that those are the originals or in some cases approximations of those characters/themes/locations etc.

                                                                                      I think, to date, the most direct and unquestionable tie-in to established other-game lore with characters you definitively encountered and/or played as in a FF title, is the FF15 crossover event.

                                                                                      The others, while strikingly similar, are usually relegated to 'this universe's version of XYZ'.

                                                                                      So if you're looking for a continuation of old characters/content, the vast majority has no relation.

                                                                                      ...but can be cool to see fully 3-D with new music.

                                                                                      No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                                      • Hakase
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                                                                                        @Greg said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

                                                                                        Robby is correct about the controller.

                                                                                        I've played several thousand hours and have perfected the layout for each job and still it's cumbersome compared to the buttons 'just being there' on a keyboard. It's not designed for controller. It's designed to work on a controller.

                                                                                        I'm surprised that people can not get around their own experience on this one cause literally this same thing is a literal statement that I've heard flipped from people that just never play on PC.

                                                                                        Game is designed for both, saying it's designed to work on a controller is just also complete nonsense just from a dev history point of view.
                                                                                        They didn't make the game for KBM and then tried to figure out how to translate all of it to a controller.
                                                                                        These games were literally made with console market as a priority.

                                                                                        And mostly again the only reason why I feel strongly about really not letting it go on how people try to spread this is cause putting this idea of why you personally feel this is the best way to play regarding input methods into people heads is just kinda communicating a wrong expectation that might affect how people wanna get into the game when it simply doesn't matter. If you're interested in 14 play it with whatever you think appeals to you the most.

                                                                                        I've done savage(cleared both ew tiers) and have now touched ultimate. I know people that raid for world first playing on controller. I know people that cleared DSR clicking their buttons. Comfort trumps it all and the way people argue about the how kbm is optimal is like the same kind of optimal that if applied generally would have no one playing MMOs on anything but kb + mmo mouse and that's just nonsense.

                                                                                        At this point for new people my advice and the advice from even up the top raiders is play what feels comfortable for you it really doesn't matter. It's not fucking worse in any tangible way that could ever matter to you cause when world first raiders healing on astro don't care to relearn to play on keyboard with their insane competitive mindset on gaining every little thing they can to get a speed edge, it certainly won't matter in a tangible way to anyone else.

                                                                                        @Daz said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

                                                                                        A question from someone who's never played FF14, but is it some sort of multiversal FF crossover-thing? There seems to be a lot of stuff from older games in the series in it, which I know is like FF tradition, but here it's like, the entire Crystal Tower from FF3, or suddenly Ruby Weapon from FF7, or Ivalice, or literally a boss battle with Exdeath

                                                                                        not really multiversal imo. It's more like a theme part kinda deal. When you see marvel attraction at a theme park it's not really about how does this fit into the MCU. It's just oh that's cool I know this from x place. And that's kinda how 14 treats most of its throwbacks as far as I can remember.

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                                                                                        • Greg
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                                                                                          It's not nonsense when it's a fact. It works on a controller. It has more buttons than can easily be accessed on controller as compared to a keyboard.

                                                                                          Playing on a keyboard is slower than playing on a keyboard because it requires more button presses. That's not subjective or experience-derived.

                                                                                          There's no discussion there.

                                                                                          No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                                          • Hakase
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                                                                                            @Greg said in Final Fantasy XIV Online:

                                                                                            It's not nonsense when it's a fact. It works on a controller. It has more buttons than can easily be accessed on controller as compared to a keyboard.

                                                                                            Playing on a keyboard is slower than playing on a keyboard because it requires more button presses. That's not subjective or experience-derived.

                                                                                            There's no discussion there.

                                                                                            No the nonsense is you saying it was designed to work on controller when factually that just makes no sense when you look at the history of 11 and 14.
                                                                                            They made those games with console/controller first in mind, you can't get more designed for controller when their intention from the get go was for it to be a console game. In my opinion there is no discussion here on that.

                                                                                            As for your second comment it's a meaningless statement because for it to mean something it has to exist in the context of it mattering. And when it doesn't matter at the top end of raiding from people that are going for world first kills, I'm sorry to say but anyone that then sells to potential new players that the optimal experience is so and so and somehow can't look beyond their own preference comes off as someone with a massive blindspot for how people actually experience games.

                                                                                            No amount of you press this button 100 milliseconds faster hence this MUST BE THE BEST way to play trumps the actual reality of a person just playing much more smoothly and competently on whatever device they are comfortable on and couple that with it literally not mattering for the highest difficulty of content as told by the people that have actually engaged with that.

                                                                                            Like sorry but selling this is a kbm experience when anyone with any substantial experience with both inputs and has done all the content where it could matter just seems immensely misguided. Someone that is a lifelong console player will likely be happier playing on controller and someone that grew up on PC games will likely be happy to play kbm and there is cases like me that have been primarily PC players but have found to enjoy the game more on controller cause it's subconsciously just a more relaxed experience more divorced from my working experience being on kbm all day. Reality shows that comforts trumps whatever theoretical advantage there is for this game again if it mattered, all world first raiders would enforce KBM only raid groups and that doesn't happen because it fucking doesn't matter.

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                                                                                            • Johnny B. Decent
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                                                                                              So.....what is everyone's class and race?

                                                                                              I am going for a Lalafell Marauder to start off. 3 feet of fury!

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                                                                                              • Hakase
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                                                                                                Kinda relevant to how silly this debate is on optimal experience. Hate these type of arguments but I'm hard stancing play on what feels comfortable. Take it from the mass of people that have done whatever content you might ever want to do.

                                                                                                Or don't start playing it cause some person in here put this silly idea in your mind that this game is a suboptimal experience if not on input method xyz, disregarding any notion of what your personal history as a person with games is because pressing a button in theory 100 ms faster is like such a big deal in a game with 2.5 sec gcd cadence.... and the notion that your personal comfort level with xyz input method might make you lose whatever theoretical gains there could be might make you lose out on those gain is somehow too foreign.

                                                                                                Also this clicker is likely a better player than anyone in here, at least def better than me.
                                                                                                Which matters in the sense of demonstrating how little this whole discussion actually matters fuck all when it comes to doing the content. Clickers can play at the highest level in ff14 (yes even world first prog) and I wouldn't say that would work for wow cause that game is actually not designed to work for anything but kbm.

                                                                                                Just to show I wasn't joking about some world first proggers being clickers.

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                                                                                                • Cinder
                                                                                                  Cinder @Johnny B. Decent
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                                                                                                  @Johnny-B-Decent Currently a Hyur Sage. Grab me on discord if you want some company someday.

                                                                                                  For the record I've played on controller since FF11! I still have a weird habit from FF11 where I'm somewhat hybrid so there's the occasional keyboard press I'll do for certain actions (ie. limit break) ... Controller people were the minority in my FC.

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                                                                                                  • Greg
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                                                                                                    Sorry, strawman doesn't work. Nobody said what is/isn't possible in terms of clearance. Gamepad requires more actions than a keyboard and therefore takes more quantifiable time/energy to perform given tasks.

                                                                                                    As I said, there is no discussion.

                                                                                                    No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                                                    • Hakase
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                                                                                                      It's all cool, go be dismissive and declaring it a strawman. All I cared about is being clear to new players as was initially the point that it doesn't matter.
                                                                                                      For FF14 there is no optimal or suboptimal to the input method as it contextually matters to the game.
                                                                                                      I've made my case to anyone potentially interested in this game about not fussing too much on what is "optimal" and I demonstrated why it doesn't matter. Game is designed for both and the experience will be enjoyable on the input method you personally prefer. Nothing in this game will put a meaningful hurdle behind that choice.

                                                                                                      But if people wanna take your and Robby's word over that it's their choice. I ain't interested it continuing this anymore.

                                                                                                      And also your whole there is no discussion shtick is frankly silly especially as you proclaim it on a statement that appears so divorced from actual reality. Cause you're speaking about theoretical gains of milliseconds and presenting it as "quantifiable" when this won't even be remotely reflected in most people's experience.

                                                                                                      People simply aren't machines that will perform optimally just by making the optimal choice.
                                                                                                      That's why your preference and own subjective comfort level with whatever input method you choose matters more than the theoretical gain. You're not going to overcome years of brain wiring playing on a controller and then just have those gains you try to argue for choosing kbm.

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                                                                                                      • Greg
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                                                                                                        "For FF14 there is no optimal or suboptimal to the input method as it contextually matters to the game."

                                                                                                        A false statement based on subjectivity rather than the actual fact that more actions must be performed on controller to achieve the same result. In terms of clearance, if a player is skilled/fast enough, the same result of victory, if victory is what is sought, may be achieved.

                                                                                                        No matter where you go, there you are.

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