@All-Fiction You mean he should have gone back after dropping the anchors off on Egghead? Meh.
I'm more bothered by Oda using the anchors as an excuse for Jinbe not to have wrecked the shark to begin with.
Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...
Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Ivotas said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
I've seen this point being brought up a lot since even before the chapter but I'm not sure I really get it. What exactly is it Vegapunk supposedly did by creating the Seraphim that makes him have questionable morals? Not saying there is nothing, but there's various ways one could see a problem here. So I'm curious what exactly is considered the big deal here.
His technology helping preserve one of the biggest and bloodiest dictatorships in fiction, one that has easily killed more people than all of real life's dictatorships combined.
Creating weapons that it Devil Fruits and the Pacifista Prototypes aswell as artificial Devil Fruits was already in support of the WG. I was asking what exactly it is about the Seraphim that made people here think he went too far with?
Also working for a corrupt government doesn't necessarily make you an evil person. This could easily go the route of 'scientist being forced to work for the villains for reasons yet unknown' route. Not that it has to though. Working for someone does not equal sharing their ideals.
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I would prefer a version of version of Vegapunk that only really cares about science with not much interest on who uses or how. And that consider the government his best employers because they have the most ressources for him to experiment with.
But considering he was trying to warm his island and was arrested by the government I'm assuming he's just a (kooky) nice chick/guy.
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He was arrested? I don't remember that part. Was it mentioned back then when Franky was at his island?
Also just caring for science no matter who he's working for also is another way how he would not have to share the WG ideals.
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I just would love to see Vegapunk, whichever or however many or whatever, completely outmatch most of the strawhats in a quick encounter off brains and gear.
Have a little barrier or electric shock ready for Robin when she tries to restrain them (or a drug injection to see if it spreads from her clone arms to normal); Know a secret about Judge's research and their own old blueprints to KO Sanji and Franky; Some with Nami's Weatheria and slap Zeus away; Counter Ussop's plants with fun trivia on them and their weaknesses; Target a keystone bone of Brook's and restrain him before his soul fixes it; Zoro's the only one I'm drawing a blank.
Then have the Sunny crew brought into the labs to restrain them in for some research and experiments.
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I wonder how many Punks there even are. I'm leaning more to clones since they would actually be a huge help to VP's research. Assuming they're even working and not enjoying on some tropical paradise while Punks do all the work.
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@Ivotas It was mentioned by Yonji in Chapter 840.
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@cavendishsama said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Ivotas It was mentioned by Yonji in Chapter 840.
Thanks for the info. Will have to reread that part.
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@IAmTheMilkman said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
What does the original Japanese say? Something closer to an actual beehive? When it was first translated, I totally understood why he went with Fullalead and agreed with the choice. Would anyone care to provide the original Japanese in this instance?
The original Japanese script plays with the pun of ハチの巣 'hachi no su' which means literally 'bee's nest' so beehive in English and also figuratively what Japanese say when something is full of holes, so in this case 'getting shot full of holes', hence the English name of the pirate island "Fullalead" and "Hachinosu" as the Japanese name.
As @Captain-M said, the original Japanese version says that murderous pirates will swarm them like bees once they set foot on Fullalead, with Prince Grus saying that's why the island is called Hachinosu, so the multilayered wordplay is a slightly lost in translation.
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the longest character reveal in fiction
i started watching weekly 15 years ago
i waited so long just to be gravely disappointed
even if that shit stain ain't him, i can't imagine a worse way to introduce a major character like this!!
enough rant, the island name suggests that the real body is a bald old scientist as the silhouette from Ceasar's flashback
if Oda is going that route, wouldn't it be a contradiction if the world's smartest scientist is unable to fix his baldness ?
anyways just like how Law messed up with the crew using his ability, i wish bonney does the same.
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@hideoushorrendous said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
if Oda is going that route, wouldn't it be a contradiction if the world's smartest scientist is unable to fix his baldness ?
The world's smartest scientist wouldn't care about being bald. He's got more important things to worry about.
Plus Franky's already got a chia-pet haircut dispenser, so the problem is already solved.
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@Ivotas Well, basically, they're child soldiers.
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@hideoushorrendous said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
if Oda is going that route, wouldn't it be a contradiction if the world's smartest scientist is unable to fix his baldness ?
That's a very questionable interpretation of the term 'condradiction'. In what universe are smart scientists and baldness a contradiction to each other? Even if we keep this strictly One Piece then so far nothing has been said that would establish those two things in a contradictory context.
Add to this what Robby said about Vegapunk perhaps not even caring. Plus if he really is able to transfer his mind into artificial bodies he builds, then it becomes a pointless subject of research anyways. He could just build a version of his original body with hair and most likely survive centuries by constantly switching to new models.
@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Ivotas Well, basically, they're child soldiers.
How do we know that? For all we know those might just be androids which got human tissue tied to them. And even the human tissue is just an assumption. Another option is them being clones. Just because they look like kids they are not necessarily actual kids.
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@Ivotas I will admit they do have the standard Pacifista laser palms, so there is some level of cyber augmentation, but them having the Lunarian flame plume above their wings would indicate to me, they are more organic then metallic.
And clones are people, too!
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Ivotas I will admit they do have the standard Pacifista laser palms, so there is some level of cyber augmentation, but them having the Lunarian flame plume above their wings would indicate to me, they are more organic then metallic.
And clones are people, too!
Cyber augmentation can create two kinds of cyborgs. A real living being with mechanical augmentation or a robot/android with biologic augmentation. If they have human brains.
Clones being people or not is always dependand on how a specific fictional universe depicts them. If they are written in a way where they develop individual thoughts and feelings than usually they would be considered humans too. In stories where they are just organically functioning meatbags without any thoughts or feelings then they aren't classified as humans. Would be interesting to know what kind of clones Vegapunk created if that's what they are.
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Can't wait to see MADS returning
Judge and Caesar are already a thing, add Queen (high chances) who wasn't jailed by Ryokugyu and only Vegapunk is missing -
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
Can't wait to see MADS returning
Judge and Caesar are already a thing, add Queen (high chances) who wasn't jailed by Ryokugyu and only Vegapunk is missingThis is the best arc to have them reunited. Maybe the cover story ends with judge and co going to egghead, if cover stories are in the past. And queen somehow ended up here.
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Ivotas
oh so you're suggesting Vegapunk is quite similar to Orochimaru about switching bodies to reach immortality ? that's funny and i don't think Oda is poor enough to snatch that idea
It's VEGAPUNK so i wanna see something CREATIVE!!
welp i can't demand too much since he already failed to program a cyborg shark, for a man who's 500 years ahead he's not so much ahead i guess.
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@hideoushorrendous
Kishimoto did not invent that concept. It's been an idea that's been done very often in (science) fiction be it in fantasy stories where a someone spirit/mind/whatever occupies different hosts to feed of them like a parasite until they move on to a new host, or it actually being part of sci-fi with concepts like transplanting brains into machines and whatnot to keep the person "alive". It's not like Oda is recreating the wheel in One Piece anyways. He's pretty much using established ideas and give them his own spin. Sometimes we end up with something amazing. Sometimes we don't. -
It's called transhumanism. It's been a staple of cyberpunk genre for ages now.
Naruto just uses the ninja magic version of it.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Ivotas said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
I've seen this point being brought up a lot since even before the chapter but I'm not sure I really get it. What exactly is it Vegapunk supposedly did by creating the Seraphim that makes him have questionable morals? Not saying there is nothing, but there's various ways one could see a problem here. So I'm curious what exactly is considered the big deal here.
Their technology is helping preserve one of the biggest and bloodiest dictatorships in fiction, one may have killed more people than all of real life's dictatorships combined, given its longevity and its pechant for large scale genocides.
I mean by that logic Coby and Garp are morally guilty as hell just by working for the WG. Why do people keep forgetting that the WG while not perfect is the only semblance of stability and peace in the seas and most pirates (in fact 90% of the ones the straw hats encounter) are evil?
Sure robot soldiers that looks like children are pretty downright bad but hey, the Shichibukais were usurping countries and enslaving its citizens for years left and right so maaaybe there's something to consider there.
We don't even know the full picture. This might be a WG's deal where they say the seraphim can choose to work for them or their race get eliminated and Vegapunk had to choose the former to keep their lives.
Remember that Kuma volunteerly put himself through being a Pacifista.
Everything about Vegapunk points to him being a neutral good or neutral character at worst.
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No where said anyth8mg about a break or shounen jump break. Interesting
人事を尽くして天命を待つ
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Scotch alerted a break early on last week.
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@blue-san said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
No where said anyth8mg about a break or shounen jump break. Interesting
The unofficial translation literally said "break next week" on the final page. Also the official version didn't have a countdown timer for this week which usually means there's no chapter.
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@zorosempai said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
Can't wait to see MADS returning
Judge and Caesar are already a thing, add Queen (high chances) who wasn't jailed by Ryokugyu and only Vegapunk is missingThis is the best arc to have them reunited. Maybe the cover story ends with judge and co going to egghead, if cover stories are in the past. And queen somehow ended up here.
This one or the following one
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I think I like the idea of Vegapunk in a new consciousness/different bodies. If this character at the end IS Vegapunk nothing to it it seems too....simple? Or is it all just playing on the subversion of "lol Vegapunk is a young woman not an old man"?
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Could have been de-aged by Bonney too.
Idk, wouldn't wonder that much if there weren't for that "Punk 02" designation.
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Punk 02 is the jacket.
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@Bugs
And Jordan 23 is the jersey. Yet the player and the name on the jersey are directly connected. That's right, Oda has just revealed a big secret. That's the 23rd iteration of Michael Jordan we actually got to witness. 22 other failed attempts are somewhere in a test tube in some laboratory. I have no idea what I even want to say with all that nonesense. Weekless chapters are not good on my brain, this very sentence being the prove for it. -
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@Razh said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
@Bugs how do you know her boob isn't marked with Punk 02 as well, but Egghead isn't a summer island.
Yes. You can't see under her jacket, but the other one is marked Punk 01. Just labeling the girl's girls.
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I'll give it to you that you can't give a fair judgement to Vegapunk without knowing why they joined the WG. But I disagree with the idea people who work for the WG are free of guilty, unless they are completely unaware of the bad things it does (which most probably are, tbh).
But someone like vegapunk, who specializes at creating weapons of mass destruction and devices used specifically for genocide, can't be excused of blame for creating those weapons. I doubt he is fooolish not to know what they are being used for.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy
the guy who invented dynamite didn't expect it to create weapons of mass destruction that will take millions of life throughout mankind history either. You don't get full control of what you create if what you created is so powerful that the masses will never let you have the say.
Oppenheimer is coming out, consider giving it a watch. That poor dude was guilt-stricken all the way until his death bed. -
Wasn't it also said that Vegapunk wanted to fix the climate of his home island Bulgemore? I just bring this up because it slightly connects to what Zeltrax said. Vegapunk might have researched many things with that goal in mind but along the way he created many things that could be weaponized. Not saying that he has to be a saint but there are definitely people in the world especially in military and goverment ranks who try to find a way to weaponize every single new invention that comes out. Looking at how the WG has been portrayed so far there's definitely some guys there who would do the same with Vegapunks research.
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This post is deleted!
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@pRopaaNS wrong thread
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It's funny that you use the dynamite inventor (Alfred Nobel) as an example of all people.
Because the guilt he felt for the lives his invention took was so great, he decided to use his fortune to create the Nobel Prize, which to this day gives awards to people who make the world better, including in promoting peace.
He made that decision after a newspaper wrongly announced he was dead, and the headline was something like "the Merchant of Death is dead". He decided that was not how he wanted to be remembered when he actually died.
So the inventor of dynamite would greatly disagree with you.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
It's funny that you use the dynamite inventor (Alfred Nobel) as an example of all people.
Because the guilt he felt for the lives his invention took was so great, he decided to use his fortune to create the Nobel Prize, which to this day gives awards to people who make the world better, including in promoting peace.
He made that decision after a newspaper wrongly announced he was dead, and the headline was something like "the Merchant of Death is dead". He decided that was not how he wanted to be remembered when he actually died.
So the inventor of dynamite would greatly disagree with you.
Disagree with what exactly? Wasn't the point zeltrax225 was trying to make that weaponization was not the intention when he created dynamite? Unless I'm missing something that works perfectly with everything you just said.
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His point was that people are not responsible for the consequences of their ccreations.
Nobel thought he was responsible so he dedicated the end of his life to atone for it.
I personally think the answer is something in-between tbh. You aren't guilty for things you can't predict, but you aren't devoid of responsibility either. But in One Piece's case, I find it hard to believe Vegapunk doesn't know what his inventions are doing.
(though this week's chapter seems to suggest there's more to that)
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
His point was that people are not responsible for the consequences of their ccreations.
Nobel thought he was responsible so he dedicated the end of his life to atone for it.
Huh, I see no mention of responisibilty on the dynamite argument. Only that Nobel couldn't predict it would be used as a weapon which is a fair argument for a person living back then.
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The discussion was about being held responsible or not. Dragon mention weapon manifacturer holds some responsability. Zel mention that the inventor of dynamite wasnt the cause of the death caused by it. Dragon countered by he actually felt great guilt for all the death and probably felt some responsability for it.
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I'm not sure the invention of the dynamite is necessarily a good analogy here. Much of what Vegapunk creates are weapons, not ordinary inventions that became weaponized. Did Vegapunk make the Pacifistas to help with people's housework? No. He trusts the WG as the world police (for good or bad), and makes weapons for them.
He may have some inventions for good too, so it's not necessarily all in service of destruction.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy you also conveniently ignore my mention of Oppenheimer, which I brought up was stricken with guilt until his passing which meant that he felt very, very responsible for what he did.
Also, that's not my point. It's such a simple concept, is the internet "wrong" for being invented if now we get fake news and information wars? No, because there are thousands of pros to it. Dynamite has its use outside of being used to make cannons and bombs. It originally pushed the speed of construction and mining into unprecedented paces. The one who utilize inventions for other reasons for "evil" reasons are always the people. Cyborgs and robotics aren't wrong for being invented, and still, if we are in the grey area, can't exactly be wrong if they are used as weapons if we take the ends justify the means approach that if weaponized, they lead to a greater good than bad. Of course, that's not what the WG is doing but my point still stands: the invention of the Pacifistas outside of war, or any robotic advancement is not by itself, evil. Only in the wrong hands, like literally every other technology.
It's not always black and white and you seem to be viewing it that way. "Oh vegapunk made things that are used for bad so now he is bad", then no, if he was to be evil, it would be more like Caesar so it's like "Vegapunk made bad things on purpose so now he is bad".
I'm arguing the former, that because of the titanic power that is the WG, he has little to no say against what his inventions can be used for. Also keep in mind, once again, the WG is still the ONLY form of stability and most of the marines except the few extremists were actually good people.
You claim that Vegapunk is now responsible, which I don't disagree with, but then your original post makes him seem like some mad scientist who enjoys creating weapons of mass destruction but we all know that the one using it is the WG.
There's like a billion analogies other than dynamites to be made for all kind of inventions being used outside of its own intentions. I cited dynamite, because contrary to your belief, I know who was behind the Nobel Prize and it was easier to understand without delving deeper into the complexities of it.
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but my point is that destruction is not necessarily bad. Human history has numerous wars that ended with destruction and overwhelming force that would lead to peace. Sure, that is an extreme take but it's the same reason why military and the police exist because they have weapons and tech that makes people reconsider and they create order in society. The argument is then once again, the WG is still considered a good force and a form of stability, that's like saying creating weapons for your military or police, who has enforced order and peace, is a bad thing. What it is then used for is outside of your control. You can't, for instance, control the department that decided to go guns blazing on citizens for some reason.
But by not contributing and being a bystander, you run the risk of terrorist or nefarious groups over running your country.Even things like he did such as cloning is only perceived as bad or evil because of our own's labels on them.
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@zeltrax225 I'm not discussing whether violence can or can't be good. The point is that Vegapunk is creating weapons for the WG intentionally (for good or for bad). He is not creating weapons in a vacuum, or for humanity as an abstract, but for one particular entity.
If we consider the WG villains, then Vegapunk is making weapons for the bad guys willingly. It means he's either naive or equally evil. Or maybe he doesn't care. Or maybe he's forced to do it.
Now if you consider the WG "gray" or neutral, then you may think he's doing something good.
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The Vegapunk peace prize does have a ring to it. If he's half as good at PR as he is at making abominations and crimes against humanity he'll probably think of that too.
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Yeah pretty much this. If it was just "Vegapunk makes science, someone uses science to kill people", it would be one thing. But from what I get he lives in a government island, where the WG comissions ways to kill people more efficiently and he happily provides them.
And I don't exactly agree with the "WG provides stability therefore it's justified" argument. Yeah I agree a decent WG is better than no WG, but the story has all but spelled out the current iteration of the WG is an absolute monstrosity that needs to be stopped at all costs. It killed an entire island for petty reasons 3 chapters ago, ffs. I'll take pirate induced instability over "death ray from heaven" any day.
The WG is not gray or neutral, the WG is the freaking sith empire, and the fact it could theoretically be worse is not enough to change that.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Chapter 1061: Future Island Egghead:
The WG is not gray or neutral, the WG is the freaking sith empire, and the fact it could theoretically be worse is not enough to change that.
Before I proceed, I want to make clear that I don't disagree with the general gist of both sides, that is the things you and @theackwardstation as well as what @zeltrax225 are saying. I do think both sides have points but that there is a little more nuances. With that preface out of the way, I think that part I've quoted above is just wrong and I'll explain why.
I can see the similarities with death rays from heaving that wipe out and entire island or planet with the blink of an eye. The framing however is totaly different. The Galactic Empire uses the Death Star as it's ultimate trump card in terms of power play. The Empire WANTS everybody to know what happened. It WANTS to implement fear. It WANTS to oppress. The WG on the other hand, for all it's crimes against humanity it has undertaken is the exact opposite. The want to hide any proof of any crimes they've done.
Yes, Ohara was a power play that sent a message to the world. But the Five Elder Stars framed the culprits as demons who want to destroy the world. They spread propaganda selling the idea of the world needed to be protected from demons who tried to destroy it. The Empire has not problem going with the, "that's what we do, deal with it" attitude. So I find your comparison is absolutely wrong.
With that being said, I'd like to add a bit more to the "nuance" thing I've said at the beginning of my post. We have guys like Koby, Garp, Smoker, Tashigi or originally Kuzan being part of the Marines and thus directly protecting the world the WG created aswell as enforcing its laws. None of them is an evil person by any means. The best example out of this bunch would even be Kuzan himself who actually played a big part in Ohara being a success for the WG. Without him (and most likely without Sakazuki) Saul might aswell have stopped the complete annihaliation of the island. But that's not the point.
What I'm trying to say here is that Kuzan himself believed that he was fighting for a good cause. It was narrow minded sure, but he said "aren't the scholars breaking the law?". But when Sakazuki blew up the evacuation ship it was clearly not something he considered necessary. He came to stop who he thought were criminals. Not to commit genocide on an islands entire population. There wouldn't have been an evacutation ship in the first place of complete annihalation was the original plan. Kuzan definitely did some things that are bad for someone with our perspective. But from his perspective he what seemed to be the right thing to do to protect the world.
Also the sheer fact that he left the Marines only after Sakazuki became fleet admiral shows that he thinks that the dude itself is the problem. And not actually the WG itself. This all comes back to how the WG presents itself to its citizens. They do crimes yes. But they try the best they can to hide them. If the WG would openly say all the things they've done and plan to do, I'm sure that many guys within it's ranks respectively citizens and kingdoms would turn on them.
And someone who creates weapons for them like Vegapunk might be the same. I'm that guy is super innocent and shouldn't know better to what degree his weapons could be used. But the WG is framing itself as the good guys and is hiding the crimes it's done. Add to that that the vast majority of pirates in the world are bad guys, I have no problems believing that Vegapunk might really just believe what they are saying. I mean he/she might be a classical lab scientist who is so stuck up with his research that he doesn't even have the slightest clue what's going on in the outside world.
Lastly about the weapons themselves. Sure the Seraphim are strong and indiscriminately destroy half of an island. The question is though if that's how they are supposed to work. We've just in this very chapter have seen a big mecha shark not functioning properly and attacked ships when it should have just done regular recon. And then we have Mihawk Seraphim dealing out attacks with no regards if it hits Marines or pirates much to Koby's dismay. Can we really say that those things work properly? Perhaps the Seraphim were not truly ready for field usage at all but the abolishment of the Warlord system could have the made the WG go "that will have to do, we'll go with that!" That's a very common thing to happen in the real world too. Not just within the military world but in other fields too. For example in the gaming industry publishers push developers to release unfinished games very often to keep investors happy. But the games themselves often turn out to be shit and the developers often face fan backlash even though they literally had no say in that.
I know I've been a little bit one sided in this post making it seem that I think Vegapunk is free of guilt. That's not what I'm trying to say though. I'm just trying to say that just because he creates weapons for the WG he isn't necessarily metaphysically evil. I do think he's a good guy/gal though but he's definitely done some shady thinks which he/she should have known better about unless this is another case where the character is actually a complete moron.
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