Are they even refered to by any name in the story at all? I don't remember anyone calling out to them be it by real name or title. Couldn't they just be the SBS characters minus colored animal title?
Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby
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@Cyan-D-Funk said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Aren't Brown Pig and Pink Rabbit just Oda using the "rejected Admiral candidates" he made up for an SBS?
Yes, but they also showed up in chapter 907.
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@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Cyan-D-Funk said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Aren't Brown Pig and Pink Rabbit just Oda using the "rejected Admiral candidates" he made up for an SBS?
Yes, but they also showed up in chapter 907.
I believe Cyan-D-Funk is familiar with that. The question is if they were ever given their SBS monikers in the actual story itself. It's one thing to label them as such in an SBS where they are introduced as possible alternatives to Fujitora and Ryokugyu, and a different thing to called that way within the OP world itself. Hence my question in the post above yours.
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I don't think Oda would take characters known from the SBS, put them in a chapter, but deconstruct their history and monikers without any indication of that. I think they are by default Pink Rabbit and Brown Pig, unless it's said otherwise in the story at some point.
Which doesn't mean they'll be relevant in the future as powerful Vice-Admirals. Maybe they'll never show up again, or maybe they'll be portrayed below expectations. Or maybe they'll play the role Deicide is suggesting.
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In-universe: Tokikake and Gion (the real names of Brown Pig and Pink Rabbit) were Vice Admirals considered for the open Admiral slots, but were rejected in favor of Fujitora and Green Bull.
Out of universe: Brown Pig was one of Oda's sketches of potential Admiral concepts before he settled on replacing Kuzan and Sakazuki with who we got. Pink Rabbit meanwhile was made up by a fan as part of an unsurprisingly horny SBS question that Oda gave a design to and declared her a Vice Admiral. Their cameo appearance talking to Garp is Oda just deciding not to let character designs go to waste.
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@Cyan-D-Funk said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Their cameo appearance talking to Garp is Oda just deciding not to let character designs go to waste.
Maybe, but still Tokikake and Gion, also known as Brown Pig and Pink Rabbit respectively.
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@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
I don't think Oda would take characters known from the SBS, put them in a chapter, but deconstruct their history and monikers without any indication of that. I think they are by default Pink Rabbit and Brown Pig, unless it's said otherwise in the story at some point.
Which doesn't mean they'll be relevant in the future as powerful Vice-Admirals. Maybe they'll never show up again, or maybe they'll be portrayed below expectations. Or maybe they'll play the role Deicide is suggesting.
I see no reason why he wouldn't if would keep the structure of those naming patterns intact. It's the same characters. But they are not admirals so not having admiral themed nicknames makes sense.
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@theackwardstation said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Ivotas well, if Pink Rabbit and Brown Pig were not already enough to contradict that as canon characters, Black Horse even had the introduction box in the manga without being an Admiral either.
I fail to see how them being canon characters contradicts anything that I said, when I never denied there existance in the first place. That argument makes no logical sense. You are right however that Horseface proves part of my argument wrong, which would be that it is restricted to just Admirals.
I'm not going to make excuses here as the truth is, that I really didn't even register this guy existing. So I have to take this new piece of information and reevaluate the situation. Horsecheeks seems to have a unique position in the Marines as he's not just in charge of a seperate branch, but also by being a director isn't even a military rank. I don't know how the department he's in charge of is organized but by being called a director I would say he's either at the top or like the admirals directly below the top guy. I wouldn't lump a guy of his status together with Vice Admirals who rank from the guys of Garp all the way down to Maynard.
Either way, I'm not invested in this subject to stay on say I'd be dying on this hill with my take. Because I don't think what you suggest is a fundamentally wrong take. I just think that it's likely possibility that Oda keeps the VAs as he's done so far and leaves special monikers to the admirals and director Horsedick. I might just as well be wrong. Just saying in which camp I'm staying.
On a sidenote, it's funny that Sengoku and Tsuru who had their appearance together are a bit unique in terms of being an admiral respectively a vice admiral. During Robin's flashback Sengoku was just refered to as Admiral Sengoku. No special name. And in chapter 0 or the Oden flashback he's always called by his actual name. Was he special or did the naming thing start with Kuzan, Borsalino and Sakazuki? Tsuru on the other hand is unique that she isn't just labeled as vice admiral. But also as chief advisor. Whatever powers in the Marine organisation that might give her.
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Gion and Tokikake also made earlier cameos in Film Gold, albeit unnamed and without doing anything of note.
Tokikake was golfing during the race sequence and Gion was hanging out in Tesoro's VIP room.
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When it was just Gion/Momousagi and Chaton/Tokikake, I expected them to be mostly fun cameos.
But then we got Tensei/Kurouma, and a pattern seems to be forming.
Not saying they'll be important, but if Oda needs a new class of marine so they feel like they matter again, then there's one ready to be used.
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I've had suspicions of an eventual "split" between the hardline "Absolute Justice" Marines and the more moderate "Moral Justice" ones pretty much since Sakazuki took over as Fleet Admiral, so gradually rounding out the roster to ensure we have enough significant named characters on both sides makes sense.
However it goes down, a proverbial "changing of the guard" is inevitable so long as Sakazuki's in charge.
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I haven't seen people considering that the Crocodile, Moria, Mihawk, Jinbe, Hancock, Dofla, Kuma couldn't have been the first iteration of Shichibukai.
Theorically there could have been an original group that had been replaced, and that only few of the group we know could be the originals.
This could potentially lead to other developed Seraphims.Also, some Seraphims could be developed based on Impel Down prisoners like Shiki, or even Kaido, who had been captured by the Marines
Proud Kintama Owner 
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The Warlords were formed as a response to the growing strength of the Emperors years after Roger was executed (incidentally this seems to imply the the Warlords as an institution are no more than 12 years old) and by all appearances the original lineup was Mihawk, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Kuma, Jinbe, Hancock, and Moria.
And if there were previous members in the brief period before Mihawk showed up on page, Oda has not seen fit to mention them and I don't think he'd make Seraphim of characters we've never met before now.
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Mihawk, Jinbei, Crocodile, Doflamingo, Kuma, Moria and Hancock have been confirmed to be the first line up of the Warlords back in Marineford. When Luffy's group crashed down from the sky letting Crocodile and Jinbei enter the stage Doflamingo said that all the Warlords old and new have been gathered now. The only thing I don't get is the "new" part. Was that a slip up by Oda or did Doflamingo know that Teach was coming respectively, was he there in the background already?
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But there had to have been a vacancy as Ace was offered a spot when he was a Super Rookie.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
But there had to have been a vacancy as Ace was offered a spot when he was a Super Rookie.
Perhaps that was a ploy - as in they were already building up evidence that Ace might be connected to Gold Roger, but didn't want that to info to spread until he was either captured or dead, so they tried to bait him into a meeting/trap with a Shichibukai seat, perhaps suggesting that they'd simply replace one or increase the number of seats to eight.
Or there may have legitimately been a vacancy and one of the "initial" Shichibukai was comparatively new compared to those that had held the job for a decade or more. We know Doflamingo, Hancock, and Jinbe had been around since more or less the beginning, but I don't think we have any actual confirmation on when exactly Mihawk, Crocodile, Kuma, or Moria were given the title.
Buggy was able to do quite a lot with just two years.
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There could be different reasons why might have been a vacancy:
- The seven original founders didn't come together at the same time and it took the WG years to have the complete roster.
- A slight variation of the previous point. The group wasn't originally planned to have seven members but upon further inspection the WG thought, they should have more members that what they had until that point.
- The seven were completed but the WG wanted to make it eight.
- The WG might have considered Ace to be a better choice and wanted him to replace one of the seven.
- It was just a ploy to capture Ace.
- Oda fucked up. This Marineford we're talking about after all. Heck even the statment "all Warlords old and new" is a bit iffy at best and senseless at worst.
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Honestly, I think it's a moot point.
If Vegapunk can clone/genetically-engineer Seraphim using samples taken from the Shichibukai, there's no reason he can't do so from others as well - powerful Marines, for example.
The fact that the first two we were introduced to were chibi Lunar!Hancock and Lunar!Mihawk doesn't in and of itself mean that all Seraphim are ex-Shichibukai clones, or that there are only seven in existence.
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Moria was a Warlord for at least 10 years, and I believe it was said Crocodile was one when he challenged Whitebeard, so that leaves Kuma and Mihawk as the only two left.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Moria was a Warlord for at least 10 years, and I believe it was said Crocodile was one when he challenged Whitebeard, so that leaves Kuma and Mihawk as the only two left.
I don't remember a scene where that was ever said. Not that, that I'm saying it's impossible. But since this would be news to me I'd like to know where this was ever said. In an SBS? Or in an actual chapter?
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@Ivotas That was from Crocodile's Vivre Card. And Moria's info came from Hogback's flashback.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Ivotas That was from Crocodile's Vivre Card. And Moria's info came from Hogback's flashback.
Thank you very much. Since I'm not really familiar with the informations exclusive to the Vivrecards, I'm always thankful if someone sheds some light into things like these.^^
Well, I guess there goes my theory that he became a Warlord after he couldn't defeat Newgate. XD
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I remember it stated somewhere that Croc became a Warlord in his 20s. It’s either from that SBS about Croc being in the newspaper in Law’s flashback, or from the Vivrecard.
How long ago was Law’s flashback? Anyway, Oda said in the SBS he was in Alabasta already posing as a hero at that time.
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I see. So I guess he wanted Pluton from the get go to help him become Pirate King (remember, that was his dream as revealed in the Miss Goldenweek cover story). And here I thought, it was in response to losing to Whitebeard, which would also tie into the PK thing. Only that I thought he lost first and needed the weapon for revenge and removal of the big obstacle. Well, always nice to see some more clarification and debunking of theories that are headcanon. Even if it's my own.
Though I have to say, I find it a bit disappointing that he posed as a hero for so long before he actually attempted the Coup d'État. Doflamingo might have planned for many years but at least acted quickly upon arrival on Dressrosa.
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OK, so after checking the wiki
Crocodile: Joined about 20 years ago.
Hancock: Joined 11 years ago.
Jinbei: Joined 9 years ago.
Doflamingo: Joined 8 years ago.
Moria: Was a Warlord at least 10 years ago.So, the only ones not confirmed are Kuma and Mihawk. Now, remembering how Kuma was slowly turned into a Cyborg, I could see the process taking about 3 to 4 years, so I think it was Kuma.
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Somehow it's a weird feel that Croc was beaten up by WB to such a degree that he swore off hardwork and went full Moria mode where he'd only try again if he found a hack
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@wolfwood I think it wasn't laziness, but rather a long term plan. However, due to the lack of challenges, he eventually grew complacent and overconfident.
After being beaten by Luffy, he realised how far he had fallen. And, when the chance to escape prison appeared, he just went: "Well, time to go back to the game."
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So, talking about the Color+Animals Marines, any guesses on who Mouse, Dragon, Snake and Goat will be?
Goat I think will obviously be Sengoku.
Garp will probably be one of the other three.
Maybe Kong or Tsuru for the other two? Or maybe Oda will save those for Smoker and Koby? -
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
I haven't seen people considering that the Crocodile, Moria, Mihawk, Jinbe, Hancock, Dofla, Kuma couldn't have been the first iteration of Shichibukai.
Theorically there could have been an original group that had been replaced, and that only few of the group we know could be the originals.
This could potentially lead to other developed Seraphims.Also, some Seraphims could be developed based on Impel Down prisoners like Shiki, or even Kaido, who had been captured by the Marines
I suppose it’s possible the warlord idea came only after Roger died, because it seemed like the status quo of Emperor, Warlords, and Marines was what made up the status quo between Roger and Whitebeard’s deaths.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
OK, so after checking the wiki
Crocodile: Joined about 20 years ago.
Hancock: Joined 11 years ago.
Jinbei: Joined 9 years ago.
Doflamingo: Joined 8 years ago.
Moria: Was a Warlord at least 10 years ago.So, the only ones not confirmed are Kuma and Mihawk. Now, remembering how Kuma was slowly turned into a Cyborg, I could see the process taking about 3 to 4 years, so I think it was Kuma.
So if we take Doflamingo's word to be the truth, what were the Warlords called 20 years ago? The One Royal Warlord of the Sea? And then 11 years ago it changed to The Eleven Royal Warlords of the sea?
Kinda weird to have such a big gap in joining considering how the Five Elder Stars made a big deal about not treating a single vacant Warlord seat lightly when Crocodile was defeated.
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@Ivotas There probably were other Warlords who have since died or been revoked or what have you. But like how there logically must have been more members of Kaido's crew before people like Page-One, Ulti, Who's Who and Sasaki joined, it's not mentioned because there's enough backstory characters as is.
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@Johnny-B-Decent said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Ivotas There probably were other Warlords who have since died or been revoked or what have you. But like how there logically must have been more members of Kaido's crew before people like Page-One, Ulti, Who's Who and Sasaki joined, it's not mentioned because there's enough backstory characters as is.
That's the thing though. At Marineford Doflamingo labels the line up Crocodile, Mihawk, Kuma, Moria, Hancock, Jinbei and himself as all Warlords of the past being present. Can't just treat it as a throwaway line.
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@Ivotas Well, c'mon, it wasn't like he was going to say "We're all here....except Rhino Vane who died five years ago from choking on some pie or Wolf Rackham who got taken out by Big Mom".
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@Johnny-B-Decent You're right, it wasn't. But he could have said "all living Warlords of the past" if that was the case. It's just adding one little keyword to the sentence.
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Well, then I guess we can assume any prior Warlords are dead then. If that helps you, that is.
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Nah, if an assumption goes against what's been said by the author himself in the story then I tend to go with the latter, even if what you suggest makes absolute logical sense. Doflamingo says "all Warlords of the past" not "all living Warlords of the past". Flawed as it can sometimes be, the instory information to me has higher value than information that can be found in databooks and vivrecards, which also have a track record of being inaccurate in several cases from what I hear.
Also it kinda ruins feeling of Luffy's recklessness that pushes him to do what others don't, if Crocodile's defeat there's been at least 6 Warlords who fell and have been replaced 11, 10, 9 and 8 years ago (and whenever Kuma and Mihawk joined). Especially since in a world where everybody who's not part of the worst generation is portrayed in a complacent way: Just sitting at their bases of operation making long term plans that never come to fruition. Heck, even Law seemed stagnant in his position as a Warlord until opportunity came knocking on his door in the form of Luffy. He might still be at Punk Hazard if the Starwhats hadn't make it there. Sure, Luffy get's his ass kicked often by the big guys. But at least that dude is moving forward.
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A problem with dating the Warlords is that we don't know how long the Four Emperors were called as such (a point a lot of people forget is that the WG more-or-less made up the concept of "Emperors of the Sea" to describe the strongest pirates in the New World in the Great Pirate Era) beyond the fact that it had to have been at most 12 years ago, because Shanks was absolutely not an Emperor at that point. They can't have existed before Roger's death.
The Warlords being conceptualized as a counterweight to the Emperors, it's possible that they were just the, say, Five Warlords of the Sea when it was just the Three Emperors with Whitebeard, Kaidou, and Big Mom as the top dogs.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
I haven't seen people considering that the Crocodile, Moria, Mihawk, Jinbe, Hancock, Dofla, Kuma couldn't have been the first iteration of Shichibukai.
Theorically there could have been an original group that had been replaced, and that only few of the group we know could be the originals.
This could potentially lead to other developed Seraphims.Also, some Seraphims could be developed based on Impel Down prisoners like Shiki, or even Kaido, who had been captured by the Marines
I suppose it’s possible the warlord idea came only after Roger died, because it seemed like the status quo of Emperor, Warlords, and Marines was what made up the status quo between Roger and Whitebeard’s deaths.
Indeed, so the Shichibukai could have existed as an institution for 20 years, potentially there could have been a full rotation of members before the ones we know
We have had 4 Shichibukai changes in a 2 year span, so that's possibleBut honestly I think that 10 years is much more reasonable
Proud Kintama Owner 
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@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
I haven't seen people considering that the Crocodile, Moria, Mihawk, Jinbe, Hancock, Dofla, Kuma couldn't have been the first iteration of Shichibukai.
Theorically there could have been an original group that had been replaced, and that only few of the group we know could be the originals.
This could potentially lead to other developed Seraphims.Also, some Seraphims could be developed based on Impel Down prisoners like Shiki, or even Kaido, who had been captured by the Marines
I suppose it’s possible the warlord idea came only after Roger died, because it seemed like the status quo of Emperor, Warlords, and Marines was what made up the status quo between Roger and Whitebeard’s deaths.
Indeed, so the Shichibukai could have existed as an institution for 20 years, potentially there could have been a full rotation of members before the ones we know
We have had 4 Shichibukai changes in a 2 year span, so that's possibleBut honestly I think that 10 years is much more reasonable
Yeah, I just find it hard to see the status quo of Emperors, Warlords, and Marines functioning in the exact same way when Roger was alive for some reason.
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@Cyan-D-Funk While I definitely agree that it is a possibility that it wasn't four Emperors from the get go, Marineford has shown that the combined forces of Marine HQ and Warlords is supposed to rival one Emperor plus his forces. I mean there's definitely holes to be found in that argument but that seems to be the general direction Oda seems to be aiming at.
So I'm not sure if the Emperors increase in numbers it would necessitate to increase the number in Warlords. The Four Emperors where enemies after all.
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@electricmastro said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@electricmastro said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@D-aelthasaar said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
I haven't seen people considering that the Crocodile, Moria, Mihawk, Jinbe, Hancock, Dofla, Kuma couldn't have been the first iteration of Shichibukai.
Theorically there could have been an original group that had been replaced, and that only few of the group we know could be the originals.
This could potentially lead to other developed Seraphims.Also, some Seraphims could be developed based on Impel Down prisoners like Shiki, or even Kaido, who had been captured by the Marines
I suppose it’s possible the warlord idea came only after Roger died, because it seemed like the status quo of Emperor, Warlords, and Marines was what made up the status quo between Roger and Whitebeard’s deaths.
Indeed, so the Shichibukai could have existed as an institution for 20 years, potentially there could have been a full rotation of members before the ones we know
We have had 4 Shichibukai changes in a 2 year span, so that's possibleBut honestly I think that 10 years is much more reasonable
Yeah, I just find it hard to see the status quo of Emperors, Warlords, and Marines functioning in the exact same way when Roger was alive for some reason.
It wasn't necessary because the great era of piracy had not even started yet
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@desa said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Shanks became an emperor only 6 years ago. Ace got a warlord invitation like 3 years or less ago. I think its safest to assume there are warlords and emperors and their numbers arent fixed.
With Warlords I could at least see the WG deciding on the number of how many they might need at one point. But the Emperors really just seems to be dependant on how many people of equal power are claiming territory in the New World.
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