@desa said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Ivotas said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
This is a valid assumption but I think that what we've seen in this chapter makes it a lesser likely one. Teach seemed strong willed enough to go for the kill while he was literally holding her in the palm of his hand. I'd say he got a pretty good look at her beauty and yet it did nothing to sway him. I have to take this at face value.
I think their exchange acknowledge he finds her attractive. She mentions her powers are tied to her beauty and Blackbeard saying no man would resist it (and he is a man). He finds her attractive but that doesnt change his goal for her.
To be honest mate. I don't know what we're even arguing at this point. What we saw on happen speaks for itself. He was about to kill Hancock and her beauty did nothing to stop him. That he might find her attractive doesn't take away from this. We do we even need to argue the obvious?
Momonga is Momonga, Teach is Teach. Just because one character might secretly simping for her it doesn't mean another one does. Teach came to Amazon Lily with the intention to kill Hancock so that he could get her DF ability. This was not just an abstract plan or idea. He really was in the process of doing exactly that. But it wasn't Hancock's attractiveness that stopped him. It was Deus Ex-King Rayleigh.
My point is its not about having the will to resist or not. Its just about finding her attractive or not. Momonga only acted about his mission to get her help for the war. But he still needed protection when instant death attack based on attractiveness happen. Because its about having the desire not can you resist that desire.
Well if that's your point then we're discussing two completely different things. Because my point actually is the resistance part. Because Teach expresses worries about men not being able to resist her while he is doing exactly that. I said it before and I'll gladly repeat it. I have no problems with him being cautious. But framing the scene around him being cautious of her ability (which is what he came for in the first place) would have worked much better, then expressing worries about something that he so far seems to be dealing well with.
Or to use Perona fruit as an example. Usopp wasnt looking depressed when he resisted Perona. But his average bad self esteem protected him regardless. And Zoro wasnt boasting when he got attack but his general high self esteem made him a victim regardless.
Its not a matter of if people are about to act on their lust for Boa its just about does it exist in that moment.
Luffy and Hancock is a whole different can of worms. Because this entire connection between a DF ability and the users natural attractiveness is just bad writing. We're now at a point in the story where aquiring another users ability is actually a thing. And if we consider how the Luffy vs. Hancock confrontation played out, and also that in this chapter Hancock reinforces the idea that her beauty adds to the DFs effectiveness, then we really have to believe that the ability is a waste in the hands of a character, who's generally considered to be unattractive.
I mean on people are usually average not unattractive. So it would make a fruit that works sometimes but not always. Big Mom fruit is similar case where its reliant on fear to work. Probably Pappug couldnt do anything with it. but that highly specific to him him. And on the other hand if there was someone who's face is cartoonishly scary he/she would be able to take life from anyone.
And I imagine if you can augment your attractiveness with hero worship, money etc... The same way that being known as a destructive yonko probably help Big Mom being seen as scary.
Nothing to disagree with her. Just adds to this fruit not being really well written because Oda wanted to have his "only Luffy could be the one" moment.
Just for shits and giggles imagine pre-"facelift" Duval getting the ability with all the same pro's and con's established. I would assume that everybody would be as indifferent to him as Luffy was towards Hancock. In which case the fruit would be pointless. That's the problem when Oda comes up with an idea without thinking things through. He most likely wanted a comparable scenario to Luffy vs. Enel or Usopp vs. Perona, where only one person in the world could sway Hancock. Only the problem is here being that Luffy's childlike attitude is a perfect counter to Hancocks beauty. But it in no shape or form has any relation to the Mero Mero Fruit.
Yes generally speaking the fruit would be useless to Weevil if he had it in a similar way that Big Mom fruit would probably be useless to Pappug if he had.They are fruits that rely on the user ability to inflict a feeling.I understand the idea that its weird that a fruit could theorically be useless if the situation is extreme enough. But sometimes the fruits are weirdly specific in their applications and the for them not to work require very specific handicaps that just the average person doesnt have like Shanks being unable to use Mr 2 fruit properly due to missing a hand.
This also just further adds to some fruits being written to have weird drawbacks that only are there for plot convenience but are not really that well written once you dig deeper into it.
@puffing-cinema said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
@Ivotas said in Chapter 1059: The Matter Involving Captain Koby:
Well, you're free to make that assumption but it is still a wrong assessment of the situation as it was not what I was actually saying.
I was only explaining why I brought the power level into the discussion.
My assessment that you are unhappy about how Teach is portrayed, but failing to make any critique is correct.
No, I don't but just for shits and giggles, let's go the extra mile and prove it to you. You said it your previous post that Teach "manages to secure his goals even though he struggles in doing so". Well, we debunk this right easily. Two of the three situations which I crisized him for have him fail at exactly what you said he does. He came to Amazon Lily to get his hands on Hancocks fruit. He didn't! Feel free to disagree with me, but by my understanding that is him actually failing to secure his goals.
The other time was when he ran away from Akainu. His goal back then was to get his hands on a Marine ship by handing over Bonney to the Marines. He didn't! This one is even worse than the Amazon Lily incident because not only did he not secure his goals, but he also gave away his bargaining chip Bonney for free and ran away. Heck, he pretty much did the Marine's job by capturing a Worst Generation pirate. Again, I don't know how you read it, but to me this is another failure of securing his goals.
If I'd be less generous I could say that even in Marineford he fails, because he said that he would use his new found ability to sink the HQ. And he was in the process of doing so until he had to turn his tail upon Shanks arrival. But I'm not going there because destroying the HQ hasn't been framed as being his actual goal. Getting Newgate's fruit was.
Feel free to say I'm not making any points about Blackbeard being unimpressive and label it as power level wankery. But then please don't blame me when I call what you are doing Blackbeard wankery, as you clearly are making claims about the character which just don't apply to the scenes in question. All with the purpose of making Teach appear better than he actually is. Because he does NOT secure his goals as you claim.
Don't get me wrong. I like the Warlords but they are not as impressive anymore as when they were first introduced.
I agree it's nothing major, but it's still a pretty valuable narrative job. Even rushing Oda had to spent 2/3 of a chapter despicting it because it envolves big players. Even at a meta level we, as readers, are dying to know how this big events played out.
True that. But it doesn't change that it lacks the oomph it once had. So if it's lacking that, it's fair game to be lesser impressed at the feat.
I'm talking about people back then rightfully being disappointed that Blackbeard's "masterplan" for why he joined the Warlords in the first place was all to do something as "trivial" as making it to Impel Down. And when I say trivial I am aware that it's not an easy feat that anyone can achieve. But for somebody who's been on an Emperors crew and seen it all there should have been an easier way to make it to Impel Down, then trying to capture a bounty of over 100 million Belly in order to be made a Warlord. That's a far too elaborate plan for something as simple.
That's the first time I'm geting in touch with the idea that people were frustrated by Teach's strategy. So I don't really know how many people thought it was simple or lame. I do not incur the same opinion, I think it's a simple yet effective plan, that has plenty of lore reasons to take place. It's quite effective and sounds believable coming out of Teach.
Well, what can I say? I'm not making this up. It was an issue back then. And it's still a ridiculous idea. And calling a plan that invovles sneaking into a meeting between Warlords and Sengoku/Tsuru at Pangaea Castle, capturing a bounty of over 100 million and being made a Warlord 'simple' is a very weird interpretation of the word. I could think of many trems that begin with s, like silly, stupid, senseless to label that plan. Simple is not one of them.
I mean just the prospect of sneaking into Pangaea Castle to be able to walk into Impel Down is like me sneaking into the White House to be able to walk into Alcatraz (when it was still operational). I just doesn't make sense that someone able of the first feat, needs to go through this entire "make me a Warlord" plan in order to get into that prison.
Especially if we consider that one member of the five person crew not only can fly but actually managed to infiltrate Pangaea Castle. That in itself is a far more impressive feat than making it to Impel Down. People were disappointed at that. Not that Teach was there.
Not really. To get into ID is never the issue, the problem is coming out. Also, infiltrating the prision is very different from rescuing prisioners and making out of it alive. Luffy's struggle is all about it. Invading Pangaea Castle is a feat, but it doens't bars tackling ID imo.
No offense but that argument is wrong on so many levels. For one Teach himself said, that the entire plan was so he could make it into Impel Down. What's more, is that the problem of "coming out" has nothing to do with his Warlord status anymore, because by the time where he escapes, he already relinquished his title. I don't know how the escape route is any valid argument on the "make me a Warlord please" plan.
Buggy also manages to achieve his goals, or actually even more, achieve goals he didn't even set to himself. That doesn't make him any lesser pathetic. Of course it's a matter of taste. And I'm saying that I personally I don't consider a guy with such an underwhelming approach to achieving goals a guy who I can take serious anymore.
Yes, that's why Buggy is an interesting character to follow through. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I find amusing watching trecherous BB trying to find his way into the world. And he's far from pathethic when he get shit done.
There's just a lot Oda could do to create tension with him, but regardless of how he chooses to approach Teach and his crew, just watching they getting punished for how ardilous they are is going to be satisfying for most of the fandom.
Already proven wrong in my first paragraph directed at you. He doesn't get shit done. He runs away living shit unfinished. Claiming he get's shit done is simply ignoring the reality of the scenes in question.