Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom

Daz

After more than four years and almost 150 chapters the Wano arc has finally concluded, as well as the larger “Big Mom/Kaidou” saga, spanning plotlines as far back as Fishman Island and Punk Hazard. Simultaneously, the forums were absent for a good while during this period of resolution. In short, theres a lot to look back on and discuss, and while we have “general Wano“ discussion for Macro arc takes, I thought it’d be interesting to have threads dedicated wholly to particular plotthreads.

One of the major antagonistic forces of Wano was Big Mom, coming off her own dedicated arc to be defeated in this one. Now that her storyline is – as far as we know- concluded, what do you make of it? Does it change how you view the more open-ended resolution to the whole cake arc? And even if you assume that we’re somehow not done with Big Mom just yet, what did you make of her integration into the Wano arc?

King Cannon

I personally thought she got a much better send-off than Kaidou did.

I would be satisfied if this was the end of her story, regardless if she's dead, alive or offscreen limbo. Her value for a potential Elbaf arc could be merely legacy-only.

theackwardstation

Big Mom is one of my favorite characters in all of One Piece, mostly due to WCI where her characterization, influence and threat were at their best. But Big Mom was still fun in Wano too both as O-lin and as the second Yonko to be defeated in the raid. I think she showed a lot of cool stuff, and I appreciate the choice of making her downfall be by the hands of Law and Kid. I'd love if she had gotten more screentime in Onigashima, and a longer fight, but I don't think it was lacking if we consider the sum of the total.

There's so much complexity to her character that maybe I miss another closure to Big Mom besides all the fighting, but I can't say I know what I'd like for Oda to do either.

I expect Big Mom and Kaido to be dead, but I wouldn't mind a cover story in case they were sent flying by the volcano eruption. Also, I hope that Rocks' flashback gives them enough spotlight back when it happens.

cavendishsama

I always felt that Big Mom should not fall here, not because I wanted her to be in another arc (at least not as a villain), but because I thought Oda could not do justice to the defeat of two Emperors in the same arc, and Big Mom would undoubtedly get the short stick compared to Kaido. Now that we're done, I think Oda did do a better job than I thought he would, but I still wouldn't say that my initial thoughts were completely off either. Thinking about the awakening for example, the awakening against Kaido was like the most epic thing in the series. Drums of liberation, Sun God Nika, Joyboy... the awakening against Big Mom was "Oi Law, have your powers awakenend?" - "Yeah". Also would've liked it if Law and Kid were unconcious after the fight, maybe have them lose a body part (How about an ear? I don't think anyones lost an ear yet). Cause at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure the only character defeated by Big Mom in Wano was... Page One...one of her allies.
Prior to Act 3 I enjoyed her a lot as Olin. It was a nice exploration of what could have been if it wasn't Streusen who found her that fateful day. She'd still be troublesome cause of her hunger pangs and overwhelming strengh, but at her core, she's just a good kid. It also just led to some hilarious panels, convenient as it all was, I thought it was fun enough that I don't care.

I still wished that at some point Oda would have given her some moments where she didn't just look like an unstoppable force of nature, but also an actual capable combatant, especially since we don't have that many women that applies to.
Her character itself certainly felt more complete than Kaido's and the actual chapter of her defeat I liked better than his as well so there's that.

Certainly she should be mentioned again once we get to Elbaf, Rocks is still a thing, her crew and territory are still out there and she herself hinted at her return, so we'll just have to wait and see, but I could live with it if this as all we get from her.

.access timeco.

Linlin is my favorite behind only Buggy, so the simple fact she was there was a treat to me. I never expected her to be in Elbaf, or for her recovery of her lost memories to be a side plot (Oda went through so much trouble to leave the cannibalism unclear, why would he do all that just to make it clear later?), so her fall down as a villain happening here is perfectly fine by me.

My only complaints are on the “battle” zone, because I really think her fight was lackluster.
First of all, except for the final chapter, her entire fight was basically the same chapter being repeated over and over again: somehow BM gains the upper-hand offscreen, but as soon as the chapter starts she loses any agency, Law attacks to much effect, Kid attacks with a flash move, they say a shared smug one-liner, cliffhanger!!!
She was basically just a dumb huge target that never actually took any preemptive action and just stood there waiting to be taken down.
Also the fact she used CoC coating against Page One but not a single time in both fights against the SN makes no sense. Even regular CoA she only used in one scene.

At the very least she came out as possibly the tankiest character since it didn’t seem like anyone managed to ever cause external damage to her, and her smiling after Kid’s final attack was badass.

I am 100% sure she isn’t dead (obviously Oda is not going to make Luffy kill someone, he is not allowed to even use the word, and her fate is obviously tied with Kaido), so I’m looking forward the moment she comes back at the final acts.

danie

I'll be shocked if we don't see Big Mom again because she was ultimately just in Wano so Law and Kid could take down someone equal to Kaido and therefore match Luffy.

Alfiere

Yeah, after all she gave, Big Mom absolutely deserved better than being handed over as consolation prize to the silver medals.
But that's kind the theme with Wano, isn't it. Some got what they didn't deserved, the rest didn't deserve what they got.

Ivotas

In all honesty, Big Mom was NEVER going to beaten by Luffy, at least not in a fight. One might think that Amazon Lily, where Luffy literally declared that he is going to kick Hancocks ass only to do a full 180 would have been a clear indicator.

Hakase

I was mostly disappointed with Big Mom in Wano. I don't have any major issues with her before and given that I don't believe that WCI open end couldn't have resolved much better I don't really see that as bad decision. I feel Wano carries the brunt of responsibility for her lackluster mismanagement. For one the action side I think just falls flat for me cause I honestly don't find Law's powers very entertaining visually, this could have been elevated if the teamwork on display was more interesting but it wasn't. But much more importantly I just wasn't invested in half the duo of that clash(Kid). All the weird excuses around moving Big Mom around conveniently like amnesia also didn't help and a lack of thematic weight ultimately made me just very ambivalent around most happenings with her. Additional the big mom pirates just getting lost in the waterfall feels like an immensely unsatisfying thread that has loomed over the raid with the only gain we got out of it is perosperos being an entertaining shit head.

Ideally what I would have wanted is Law and Kid winning with a teamplay that exploits her personality being that of a giant kid that never learned to control herself in the least.
Instead what I got are just a myriad of very boring power displays from magnet man and I can do whatever the situation needs man boiling down to who has the last special move.
Nothing against the railgun really but definitely not the most interesting take I've seen on magnet powers and Law's is just inherently a very difficult powerset to make engaging.

Deicide

Big Mom was downgraded for Wano, that's for sure. Not only her, but her entire crew.

Her fight with Law and Kid wasn't bad (I actually like it more than Luffy vs Kaido), but it did skip some fundamental beats. Most of the phases in which Big Mom dominated the fight were off-screened and only hinted at, and she didn't use her entire repertoire.

The Big Mom pirates went from a fearsome chaotic crew to a joke. They were so underutilized that I wonder if Oda still has plans for them or if this is it, and characters with amazing powers like Mont-D'or, Smoothie or Daifuku will go to waste.

danie

@Ivotas ??? Are you saying Big Mom will change her mind about Luffy and fall in love with him???

Ivotas

@danie said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

@Ivotas ??? Are you saying Big Mom will change her mind about Luffy and fall in love with him???

Now with Luffy, but with Sanji's cooking skills. Pretty much happened already, she just doesn't know it was Sanji who made the cake yet.

danie

@Ivotas Damn. That means if Big Mom ever finds out about that, she will want Sanji. So Luffy will have to fight her.

Ivotas

@danie
Nah, he will most likely marry Pudding after he finds all blue anyways so by that time the Strawhats would most likely be disbanded and he can cook for his mother in law as much as they both want.

danie

@Ivotas Wrong! Once the crew is disbanded, Sanji will return to the Baratie and be the head chef there.

King Cannon

I don't see the Straw Hats ever disbanding unless Luffy actually dies, but I doubt that will ever be shown in the main manga considering the whole "OP will end when One Piece is found".

theackwardstation

To this day the only woman Luffy has beaten is Alvida in chapter 2. It's clear as day that Oda does't want to make Luffy and the male SHs beat women because it goes against his principles, and that's the same reason for that fiasco of Zoro vs Monet.

So I always had my doubts that Luffy would fight Big Mom, and was uncertain about her final destination as an antagonist (redemption? or another kind of defeat?). So it made a lot of sense to me that Kid and Law took the role of beating her.

Alfiere

He also punched Vivi that one time.

Ivotas

@danie
By that time the Baratie will have become a gobal chain which he can run from anywhere in the world. Not to mention that Big Mom isn't an Emperor anymore, so she might have to move in with Sanji and Pudding to begin with.

Ivotas

@King-Cannon
I totally see an epilogue timeskip happening where Zoro is ~~banging~~ married to Tashigi and raises clumsy sword demon kids, Usopp is ~~banging~~ back with Kaya again and tells her more stories his fantastic adventures. Not sure ~~who the others will bang~~ where the others might end up at.

danie

@Ivotas Oh hell no. Living with Big Mom as your mother-in-law would be hell. I know Sanji is a pervert creep but nobody deserves that.

ARTEMlS

@danie Well, he at least can try to matchmake her with Green Bull.

desa

I did really like her relation to Kaido by the end where it seems he genuinely cared about teaming up with that person that used to look after him and was sad that her time of invincibility had past. And on mom side it's interesting to look back on her time on screen and notice she mostly always hype up Kaido and in her fight against the supernovas she's looking out for him. I would have liked if we had a flashback more related to that relation and not the one we had.

I also understand her getting defeated before starting the last Saga. Once the lineup for emperors become Luffy, Shanks, Blackbeard I think it make sense.

However I would have preferred her getting dealt with either in Elbaf where she retires or that Blackbeard beat her to take her pnoglyph and establish his threat level. Maybe with both Luffy and Blackbeard getting their bounty announce at the same time.

The constant use of her as the butt of the joke or hype for less important character I did not enjoy. HEr final moments were cool but she was from being as dominant as she should have been.

Also I dont buy for a second that 20 years after starting her empire Big Mom agreed to have a captain and not be her own boss. The relation with Kaido should have just been Kaido was to Big Mom what Oden was to Whitebeard. A shithead who headstrong attitude won over and became their fake younger sibling. Especially since Kaido is pretty big in size and mom has a thing about finding people she can seat eye to eye with.

As it stands Big Mom always felt like too big of a presence to serve as a secondary antagonist and things like the amnesia and her crew being stuck at a waterfall truly make me feel Oda didnt really have a place he just forced her in there.

Bugs

@Ivotas said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

@King-Cannon
I totally see an epilogue timeskip happening where Zoro is ~~banging~~ married to Tashigi and raises clumsy sword demon kids, Usopp is ~~banging~~ back with Kaya again and tells her more stories his fantastic adventures. Not sure ~~who the others will bang~~ where the others might end up at.

Nah, Zoro will have unknowingly and unintentionally be married to Hiyori, much to Saniji's chagrin. Or if you want to be extra mean, Zoro ends up with Nami to create a family of high-class but direction challenged navigators that always end up in the right place by taking the wrong route.

King Cannon

@theackwardstation Alvida, Vivi, Ms.Valentine, the Boa Snake Sisters and Ulti have all been his victims.

Ivotas

@Bugs said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

@Ivotas said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

@King-Cannon
I totally see an epilogue timeskip happening where Zoro is ~~banging~~ married to Tashigi and raises clumsy sword demon kids, Usopp is ~~banging~~ back with Kaya again and tells her more stories his fantastic adventures. Not sure ~~who the others will bang~~ where the others might end up at.

Nah, Zoro will have unknowingly and unintentionally be married to Hiyori, much to Saniji's chagrin. Or if you want to be extra mean, Zoro ends up with Nami to create a family of high-class but direction challenged navigators that always end up in the right place by taking the wrong route.

I like the idea of direction challenged navigators. Where do I sign your petition?

theackwardstation

@King-Cannon said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

@theackwardstation Alvida, Vivi, Ms.Valentine, the Boa Snake Sisters and Ulti have all been his victims.

With the exception of Alvida, none of these fights reached a knockout. It shows that Luffy as a character is not against fighting women, but still Oda dislikes portraying Luffy actually hurting them and beating them down, so the depiction is always more gentle.

King Cannon

@theackwardstation Ms. Valentine was definitely a KO though.

King Cannon

In addition, he has no problem depicting Franky and Jinbe hurting Big Mom in a graphic manner, so it's weird that you think Luffy is being restricted in some form.

theackwardstation

@King-Cannon said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Big Mom:

In addition, he has no problem depicting Franky and Jinbe hurting Big Mom in a graphic manner, so it's weird that you think Luffy is being restricted in some form.

Eh, I don't see Franky's or Jimbe's attacks on Big Mom as seriously graphic either, and they were certainly not enough to harm the old lady.

I stick to my perception that Oda doesn't like to put his male protagonists hitting women (even when the character is not against it), and that's an extension of Oda's broader sexism that permeates the story, especially regarding fights.

black-leg jex

If Big Mom goes down here then I am fine with it, although I feel like given her speech at the end she should come back somehow. I think she was handled pretty well outside of the convieniant amnesia at the start. I think it was important that someone besides Luffy took down an emperor of the sea and this was a good way of making sure it was off-screen. She was also very intimidating throughout the raid, more so than Kaidou a lot of the time.

Her crew on the other hand was handled really badly. Perospero is fine but I still don't understand why he even needed to be here. and the rest of the crew not being able to get onto the island was just silly.

Shiebs

This thread got me thinking we should have a general Black Beard Pirates thread, to discuss there role in the story, what they did during Wano while they were off screen, what there match ups will be with the Straw Hat Pirates, will they fight/kill the red hair Pirates, What they’ll do to make themselves a bigger more imposing threat etc

Unless we already have a thread for that in which case I apologize

Rean

I think in general, Oda had it right when he had Big Mom get her defeat here, and not via Luffy's hands.

The execution wasn't the most graceful, but I think having Luffy defeat all the emperors himself (as appealing as that is from a traditional shonen lens) would dramatically reduce the world's size and its capability to surprise the viewer. You simply have to give some of the Supernovas some kind of feat to make whatever surprising off-screen things they do actually credible.

I also think Oda's not done yet with her crew at least, and I think some interesting things can be done with them, even if Big Mom herself doesn't continue on.

black-leg jex

Pudding is definitely going to have a bigger role, being the only three eyed user we know. I suspect the point of this Germa Cover Story is to show that they kidnap Pudding and take her with them, so that Sanji can later save her and bring her back into the story (maybe as a temprorary tag along for the final arc).

puffing.cinema

I think that Oda should have used Kid and Linlin in Act II to create a more emotional punch or connection for Act III. If he did use Kid better and gave him more space and substance in Udon's mines we would probably have some better reasoning to get invested in the fight other than "Oh, it's time for the old folks to fall". Seemed like we are just waiting for it to happen, some box that has to be checked, instead of an interesting plot point.

I'm cool with how Linlin was defeated. Taking her homies away seemed to be a good goal since Roof Piece, but giving Law another power out of nowhere seems just lazy. She being a titan that struggled to the very end was amusing to see. With that said, I hope we get some hint of her destiny before the end of the current cover story.

Finaly, there's just so much uncovered potential in her crew that I really want them back somehow in the future. I would like to get more from Compote, Oven, Mont-d'Or, Amande and Smoothie.