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    Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull

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    • Daz
      Daz
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      After more than four years and almost 150 chapters the Wano arc has finally concluded, as well as the larger “Big Mom/Kaidou” saga, spanning plotlines as far back as Fishman Island and Punk Hazard. Simultaneously, the forums were absent for a good while during this period of resolution. In short, theres a lot to look back on and discuss, and while we have “general Wano“ discussion for Macro arc takes, I thought it’d be interesting to have threads dedicated wholly to particular plotthreads.

      To start with, why not talk about something pretty much entirely constrained to the forums downtime period: The “post arc” appearances of Green Bull and Shanks. So chime in with whether or not the handling of these guys worked for you and why.

      I’ll post more substantive takes myself later, but for now I’ll just ask if there was like, any in-universe reason for Shanks to be at Wano? I certainly can’t remember one.

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      • otakufan
        otakufan @Daz
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        @Daz said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

        I’ll post more substantive takes myself later, but for now I’ll just ask if there was like, any in-universe reason for Shanks to be at Wano? I certainly can’t remember one.

        We haven't been given one, but I suspect Shanks was just taking the opportunity to verify some of the details from the papers - a quick detour to confirm via CoO sonar pinging that Kaidou and Linlin are truly gone (either dead or flung far away via volcanic eruption) and get a read on Luffy now that he's finally reached "great pirate" status, whilst travelling between Mary Geoise (where we last saw Shanks meeting with the Gorousei) and whatever part of his territory needs attention at the moment due to Bartolomeo running amok.

        With the additional bonus of conveniently scaring off Aramaki and doing some Film RED promotional work at the same time.

        Without love, it cannot be seen.

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        • kouch_lee
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          As someone who's slowly but steadily growing tired of the whole "maximalist" approach to media "critique" (mid, trash, "you promised a 10/10 chapter but this is barely a 7/10 chapter meaning it's actualy complete garbage", etc... ----> GOAT, masterpiece, "One Piece was crazy good this week", etc...) that seems to be the be all end all on Twitter, Youtube and, gotta say, on this forums' adjacent discord channel where most stuff fell confortably into the "lol trash garbage lol" category, the build up towards the whole Greenbull - Momonosuke - Shanks incident made it look like we were about to witness the most embarrassing piece of fiction the world had ever seen.

          Turned out, what we got was was mostly ok. Not great, but ok. Did we need a freaking admiral to test Momonosuke's resolve? Probably not. Did we need that massive Shanks wankery thingie Oda did there? Probably not. Did things kinda fall into place anyways and served a purpose? Yeah, they did.

          We got Sanji, Zoro, Luffy and Jinbe aware of the situation, acknowledging Momo's growth. That was nice. Greenbull's forest powers made for some pretty nice visuals. That was nice. He didn't job, as 99% of the fandom said happened (for some reason).

          Shanks was there just for Film Red. That's it. His proclamation that he was going after the One Piece was actually a good moment that gave Shanks something to do, but it could've been done from anywhere else, being near Wano was just...yeah. The whole thing with the marine ships appearing and disappearing was also kinda wonky, in fact, didn't Greenbull communicate with the ships BEFORE the "a week later" time skip? And, at the end of the day, Greenbull appeared, acted like a massive asshole, played around for a bit and got scared by the big man's COC and. . .that's it. As far as admiral introductions go, it's hard to deny this is the weakest of them all.

          As most things post-wano, this whole affair felt like it needed a couple more minutes in the oven.

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          • Seafarer33
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            Pretty much what kouch_lee said.

            At the end of the day it all kind of works if you don't look too closely at the seams, but... Until we learn that Luffy is really a tiny piece of Shanks' master plan and in retrospect he was there to look after his investment... I can't imagine why he would have come all the way there but not stopped to say hi or gonk someone on the head.
            Not to mention the haki artillery strike was pretty ridiculous. I do get that it's the only way Shanks could have intervened without actually setting foot on Wano which immediately rises a variety of issues, but then I would much rather the solution had not involved him at all.

            As for Greenbull, at some point it did seem like he was going to bring in a few navy ships and cause trouble for real, which was an interesting prospect. Yamato could have ignored Momo's pledge and, together with the Shogun and Scabbards, been enough of a threat to make the admiral think twice. Which would have meant no Shanks in the equation and given some weight to the decision to stay in Wano later on.
            Alas, it all deflated pretty quickly and not in the most satisfying manner.

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            • Seafarer33
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              Still on Greenbull, I just realized that while we see him subdueing King, Queen and a number of Beast Pirates, he came to Wano alone by flying. He does call for a warship, but no marine ships that we know of climbed the waterfall or entered the elevator port, plus he wasn't even near the shore.

              So at this point anything can have happened to the prisoners. We're free to make assumptions, but unless I'm mistaken nothing was confirmed in the end.

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              • theackwardstation
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                It's impossible to talk about Shanks' presence in Wano without mentioning Film Red, because everybody jumped on the opportunity of calling it pure marketing. But I think future readers won't even notice the awkwardness without knowing the meta-context known by weekly readers, and they'll just enjoy it for what it is. In my opinion, there's merit to these scenes, and, above all else, it was all good shonen fun.

                ~ What did Aramaki add to post-Wano? ~

                • he reforested Wano, a funny and ironic outcome;
                • he played the role of the threat of the World Government to Wano (due to being an unaffiliated nation), something which had been mentioned throughout the arc here and there, but never put as a real thing until Greenbull showed up, onscreen. Therefore, his presence made blatant the importance of Wano's artificial outer barriers, the need for the Samurai to fight for Wano's sovereingty, the importance of Kaido and Ryuma as deterrences in the past, and the importance of Luffy making Wano his territory.
                • he was a device to finish Momonosuke's development as a reliable Shogun... and arguably it also had an impact on Yamato's decision to stay in Wano.
                • he expressed verbally the ideological nazifascim of the current World Government, making it more explicit that they're villains of the final saga. And it's great that another Admiral is evil, since we don't need another Fujitora or Aokiji.
                • he finally made his much needed introduction, and I love the visuals of his Logia. Good eyecandy.

                ~ What did Shanks add to post-Wano? ~

                • he declared his goal of claiming the One Piece, something we didn't know yet.
                • we needed to see Shanks' reaction to Luffy becoming a "great pirate" as it completed their promise, so we got that here. And it was a relevant development the fact that Shanks doesn't want to meet Luffy willingly.
                • also, Shanks declared that he's going after Barto to punish him, another relevant info.
                • Shanks' incredible display of haki showed us that there's an even higher powerlevel onwards in the story, which is important to raise the stakes and make readers excited for the future, especially after we defeated the supposedly strongest creature in the world;
                • it was useful that Shanks scared Aramaki away, because it was not the time to defeat an Admiral yet.
                • it was hype.
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                • Deicide
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                  I predicted (in Twitter) that it would be Yamato and Momonosuke that would deal with Ryokugyuu. The event ended up a bit different than expected (I thought Yamato's frost powers would counter Aramaki's growth enough for him to feel threatened) but close enough.

                  And I also believed for at least an year that Shanks would appear in the Wano epilogue. I thought we would have a brief meeting between him and Luffy. Again, it wasn't like what I thought but Luffy sensing Shanks presence kind of gave me enough to feel satisfied.

                  I feel the problem wasn't in the events themselves, but how the story dealt with their aftermaths. I'm sure the Green Bull fight was meant to show Momonosuke's growth and frame Yamato's decision. Except that then Oda completely skipped Yamato's epiphany. And, in Shanks' case, I think his appearance in Wano was meant to be longer, but Oda was in a hurry to end the arc within Volume 104 so he cut it as short as possible.

                  The omissions ended up creating plotlines that had developments but not conclusions. The purpose of the scenes was left to the readers' imagination.

                  Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                  • puffing.cinema
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                    Just for framing, the ENTER moments of big players since time skip happened: mischevious granny eats her own crew in a display of barbarism and canibalism (remember the acid fruit theory times?); suicidal monster falling of a Sky Island just to mess with potential crewmates; blind geezer gets a doublespread while sending thugs to the underworld by physical force; a tall tale of robbing a thousand hearts and a smirk while posing against a frozen door; a master of the underworld having fun with his sidechicks while making a phonecall (this goes double, lol); a presumed dead character coming up with "hey, forgot to say I'm still alive. Amnesia, uh?"; destroying a whole city with a high number of casualities all this being a mommy boi; the clown mayor of clown city bragging about his dirty deeds done cheap. And then, RYUGOKYU: dabbing on already hurt subordinates of a yonko, a new florest in his wake. I mean, he obsviously had the short end of the stick. He was double cucked: not a good ENTER moment, and his shakiness facing a hakibolt from Shanks made not a great impression. Good thing his powers are cool to see in action.

                    On the other hand, I don't think there's a better way to explore so concisely the weakness that Wano is now exposed. And the main issue is not that he went there, and Shanks stopped him, but HOW it was done. If we had one more chapter (to better frame his wrap up and hopefully Yamato's thoughts on Wano), it woud be alright.

                    Shanks reason to be so close to Wano, in the story, probably is some kind of support role. Like what he did in the Paramont War. Again, it'll probably never be adressed, like his actions stopping Kaido in his tracks back in Marineford.

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                    • King Cannon
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                      I would say it's pretty insulting how Ryokugyu's final panel is just him in his "arms surrender" pose (like how Tama would call it).

                      We don't even get to see him leaving the country. Not that it was necessary to, but it just goes to show how rushed this whole affair was.

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                      • S
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                        The entire Greenbull thing did not make sense and the execution was shoddy.

                        • Worst Admiral introduction, had no real weight to it
                        • GB going on a rant about the Tenryuubito felt completely out of place
                        • GB being there actually underlined that Wano is unprotected now, since they essentially did not stand a chance without Shanks´intervention
                        • Shanks being there felt completely out of place
                        • The Strawhats laughing while the Scabbards were getting beaten felt ridiculous
                          ....
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                        • Zanze
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                          Green Bull was handled fairly well in my opinion.
                          Sure, he didn't give off the same grossly overpowered, completely unsurmountable wall that past admirals' introductions had, but I think it makes sense. The main characters play in that same strenght tier now. The admirals aren't as scary anymore, and that's fine. That said, he didn't look like a pushover either, his powers are formidable and very varied, and also imo just very cool visually. Especially him leaveing a trail of flowers as he walks. Great stuff.
                          In terms of characterization, I've enjoyed what little we have seen. People say GB is an even worse fascist than Akainu and while it may look like that, I think there's enough nuance in his actions to make a more interesting character later. First off, his power is nature. And the rule of the strongest is one of the rules of nature (or at least, it can be seen as such). I like that he offers a darker, unconventional characterization for someone with such a power. Then, his speech came off as kinda "matter of fact", it's what he works for but not necessarily what he believes in. I think.
                          The ramifications of his actions on Momo and Yamato make sense but were kinda underexplored... or un-explored.

                          Shanks though, he was just there to promote Film Red.

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                          • Ivotas
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                            I didn't like the Shanks tidbit at all. This isn't however tied to just his appearance in Wano but rather to all his moves he's made throughout the manga. I only now realize how writing this realize how even other things, that I liked back than annoy me about the character because once you see the pattern you cannot unsee it anymore. But one thing at a time. Let's start with the most recent development and then slowly move backwards in time.

                            Shanks appears once again to save the day Deus Ex Machina style. Yes, I know the Strawhats were aware of the situation and they most likely could have handled it if need be. But the matter of fact is, they didn't. And it's not because Momo, Yamato and the Samurais took care of business themselves. It's because Shanks Ambition Sniped Ryokugyu. So it was him that took care of matters. Yes, I know he was there for One Piece Red purposes but it's still annoying to see time and again that all this character seems to be doing is meddle with other peoples affairs without actually ever doing something just for him. Yes, I know he bets everything on the new generation but this guy really is actually always just reacting and never acting if you think about it. Yes, he came to Wano out of his own accord but to do what? Nothing really. If Ryokugyu wouldn't have posed a threat Shanks literally wouldn't have done anything besides being there and interacted with nobody. So now let's see how many times we saw this pattern previously.

                            • At Marijois: Interupted the meeting of the Five Elder Stars to talk about a "certain pirate". No idea what that ultimately was about, but he figured he had to bother the senile morons crossword game session
                            • At Marineford: Appears to stop the war and voila, magically everybody stops because he has them save face for him. Again the dude literally needs others to fight away for him to have actually a big thing to go on, he can interrupt.
                            • Meeting with Whitebeard: This is the one I just realized while starting this post. I really liked that meeting in the manga. It and of itself there's nothing I would critisize about it. But if I consider all the other developments listed above than I it becomes apparent that this dude once again moved only to meddle with other people's matters.

                            I know it would be wrong to say that this guy has to agency because he does seem to have an agenda of his own why is doing all of that. But to me it's just annoying, when the only way how the guy reacts in the non-flashback timeline is when he interrupts other people's business (two times even on Deus Ex Machina level). Honestly, the only time he actually minded his own business was the very first time we saw him post chapter 1 and that was when he was drinking in the jungle where Mihawk met him. All those things considered I don't see Shanks as anything else but a plot device. And the end of Wano didn't do anything to change my mind about that, which is rather disappointing.

                            As far as Ryokugyu is concerned. I don't really know how I feel about him to be honest. I don't feel that he was a pushover because at this stage in the series we are with the big boys, so it's hard to expect him to be as intimidating as Aokiji was in Longring Longland or Kizaru at Sabaody. Also he stopped after Shanks after being intimidated by Shanks, who is the same guy who stopped Akainu in his tracks. So that's that.

                            Overall he came across as pretty powerful by how quick he dealth with everyone at Udon. Marco was having a harder time with King and Queen and that's a guy that fought even ly with Aokiji and Kizaru in their brief one on one confrontations. All he did was strenghten my belief that Fujitora is the lamest of all five animal color themed admirals. So I guess that's something.

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                            • Deicide
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                              @Ivotas
                              All will be well when Blackbeard puts Shanks in his place.

                              Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                              • Ivotas
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                                @Deicide said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

                                @Ivotas
                                All will be well when Blackbeard puts Shanks in his place.

                                Nah, that will be Rocks' job when he leaves Teach's body after having fed off him for decades like a parasite.

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                                • desa
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                                  Greebull motivation to go there are completely insane. He seemingly has great reverence for the emperors and their abilities but seems to believe he can on a alliance that took down 2 of them head-on. I would have much prefer a sneak attack to try to recover Robin as a motivation.

                                  I also think while there are some technical results of the Greenbull appearance I would have like a bigger effect. Like tying Yamato motivation for staying to the visit of an admiral or Momo wanting to open the borders until now but the marine attack makes him realize they are unprepared.

                                  I do find interesting to have an admiral that love the system not just ignore the bad side. And its a nice motivation to have Neko and Dog stay. Although I feel they might have stayed to honer their pledge to the Kozuki long ago.

                                  Shanks is a completely unneeded presence. Everything he does there he could have done home except I guess flex his haki but I dont think that one fanservice scene justified his presence. Luffy kicking out the admiral might even be set up/forshadowing for putting thecountry under his protection.

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                                  • Bugs
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                                    @Ivotas

                                    I agree with what you said but it's not just Shanks that has this problem for me. Most of the other big players have this problem post-timeskip.

                                    Teach was great before the timeskip because he was doing stuff. He got a mention of him at Drum and by Ace. We then meet this Luffy like fellow who is one of the few who acknowledges the power of dreams on the Jaya and then a few chapters later... bam we learn that he's actually Blackbeard and now he's after Luffy. He doesn't catch Luffy but Ace does catch up to him, but he still captures Ace, becomes a warlord and then uses it to break into Impel Down to fill out his crew, which he then uses to finish off and steal Whitebeard's power, declaring the next era was his. Teach was sort of like a Buggy but whose victories were earned. He fumbled a lot and was made to look weak at times but he still managed to get to where he was through his own scheming and actions.

                                    Same with Sakazuki. First shows up in Robin's flashback after he's blown up a refugee ship on the grounds "it's better to burn a thousand innocent people than to let one witch go free." Powerful and let's us know everything about him. Pops up again at Marineford where he's executing deserters, openly stating that kids should suffer for the sins of the father and hellbent on executing that even after Whitebeard injured him, and of course, he kills Ace. The man was Absolute Justice (remember when that was a concept) incarnate and led the charge even when it was pointless (as Coby pointed out).

                                    But during the timeskip, they both went to Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain School; the place that teaches you to spend 90 % of the time bragging about your amazing evil scheme and the remaining 10 % failing at it. They basically stopped doing things. Teach has only showed up to make empty declarations (I refuse to acknowledge the off-screen fight with the Revs because it was a nothingburger; the Revs didn't get weaker and the Blackbeards didn't get stronger) and Sakazuki mostly just yells at subordinates (even if he's not on the field, we could have at least gotten something to indicate he's made the Navy more draconian than under Sengoku). In fact, the last time the Marines and the Blackbeard pirates really did anything was during Dressrosa and only barely for the latter.

                                    I could throw in the Elders as well especially since Imu showed but they've always been one mind with five bodies. So they're not as disappointing (I will point out that Shanks meeting with them was probably the most interesting thing that happened to either given that they should be strict enemies, but it has to play out well in the end).

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                                    • Bugs
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                                      @Ivotas said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

                                      @Deicide said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

                                      @Ivotas
                                      All will be well when Blackbeard puts Shanks in his place.

                                      Nah, that will be Rocks' job when he leaves Teach's body after having fed off him for decades like a parasite.

                                      Don't remind me about Rocks. Both of him and Imu read like last minute additions Oda made to create an extra sense of (unneeded) mystery when he couldn’t find anything better to add.

                                      Imu is worse because Oda might do the wrong thing and make him the final villain. Rocks is dead but damn, I can imagine Oda screwing the pooch and make someone related to him.

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                                      • Daz
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                                        Since Luffy is now the Happy Sun Boy, I could totally see Imu being the Hateful Moon Man and thereby final villain

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                                        • Ivotas
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                                          @Bugs
                                          I feel you on Teach and Sakazuki. But to me Teach was disappointing in Marineford already. I know that there is people out there who find it a brilliant turn that Teach didn't forsee Newgate using this weapon. But I'm sorry, to me that's just simple "Oda can't do wrong" fangasming. There's so many levels how this is just doesn't work. Even if we go down to the most basic levels in terms of lack of information, which would be a scenario in which both Teach and readers see Whitebeards Naginata for the first time when he attacks Blackbeard, a schemer like Teach should have been prepared for an unexpected attack. Newgate is a friggin' pirate after all and the strongest one in the world at that.

                                          But it wasn't even like that. Newgate was using the Naginata throughout his the entire conflict. Sometimes alternating weapon and DF attacks. Sometimes combining the two. Teach who should have seen at least a little bit of what was going on should have been fully aware of that.

                                          But it get's even worse with what we know now. We see in the Roger flashback that the Naginata has been an integral part of Whitebeards fighting style for decades. There's no way Teach shouldn't have anticipated an attack with the weapon. Oda did not draw the confrontation like this because that was his intention. He wrote it like this because he said that he was rushing through Marineford and that if he would have done everything he had in mind, each chapter would have consisted of 50-ish pages. The Whitebeard vs. Blackbeard confrontation that has been hyped up for hundreds of chapters is definitely one that has been cut. I have no doubts there. But instead we got a bad gag moment and people ate it up as it was storytelling caviar.

                                          Akainu on the other hand got ruined for me strangely enough in a moment where he wasn't even doing something. That was when Law rambling on the Snail Phone at Doflamingo during the climax of Punk Hazard. He said something along the lines "it's been two years since the Paramount Pictures clusterfuck but none of the big players have made a move as if they were waiting for something". Now I know that this was most likely meant as a set up statement for things like what Vegapunk created. But for me it always came across as Oda having to give an excuse to the reader, why such a hardliner like Sakazuki, who moved the Marine HQ to the New World to be closer to the real threat, had suddenly to remain silent and play the waiting game exactly until Togashi Luffy comes back from his two year hiatus. It just didn't sit well with me.

                                          As far as Rocks and Im are concerned. I can totally understand why anybody would have a problem with both of them. Strangely enough I don't fall in that category. That is not because they are written well but because I expected both two appear. Not the characters with the names of course but the characters they represent.

                                          For Rocks it was the eyepatch guy comment Oda made over a decade ago. Ever since that was brought up I expected it to be someone who stands outside of the equation. Kinda like Enel was something that is not part of the blue sea matters (so far). This dude just seemed like endgame material to me. And then when he said, that he planned to mention Shiki when Shanks and Newgate met already and Shackey saying things that Garp gave her trouble long ago I just felt like that there's character, from the OP world's past going to make an impact at the end. And that this is going to be the eyepatch guy. I still believe this to be Rocks. Would laugh my ass off if the eyepatch guy turns out to be someone completely different though.

                                          As far as Im is concerned. That has nothing to do with One Piece at all but with a movie quote that I always went back to when thinking about the Five Senile Stars. It's from the move called 'Payback' starring Mel Gibson. When he was talking that he wants to talk to the top dog of the crime organization he goes after he was told that there's two guy, that share the power. And to this he had the following to say: "One man... you go high enough you always come to one man... who?"

                                          And I always thought that this would also apply to the WG. Sharing powers while being at the absolute top just isn't something I considered to be how the big antagonist organization of the OP world would opperate. But that doesn't change that it's still handled rather badly in the story because the Five have been introduced as the highest authority of the world government. If Im was kept a sectret so far then the why shouldn't be kept a secrert too for so long.

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                                          • Alfiere
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                                            As for the in-universe motivations for Shanks to be there, I doubt we were given any but can be easily inferred, from him being the overzealous balance-obsessed centrist he is worrying about the Big mom- Kaido alliance, to the precious Pirate Prince of destiny he personally groomed being there.

                                            As to what was achieved, let's see:

                                            • Kind of belittled Momo and the Scabbard's corageous stand against hopeless odds;

                                            • Definetly ridiculed the newest admiral, further cementing that the Marines don't matter any more in the process;

                                            • Took away precious space that could have allowed some years-old plot threads and charachter arcs to have a proper on-screen conclusion, which they ended up not having or being thrown away;

                                            • New boobs for Shinobu, but not for Raizo;

                                            • Cringe DeviantArt OC barbie doll from new movie implied canon;

                                            • Movie promoted.

                                            Not too great if you ask me.

                                            Even not considering the Shanks of it all, everything about Greenbull felt completely random. He randomly went alone against at least 15 billion worth of pirates, he randomly engaged the nation's leader, randomly shouting empty threats while exposing his foreign politics manifesto. He finally randomly skedaddled away when felt that one more famous pirate was nearby.

                                            It all felt really forced and contrived.

                                            Curiosity has its own reason for existing

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                                            • Ivotas
                                              Ivotas @Alfiere
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                                              @Alfiere said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

                                              • New boobs for Shinobu, but not for Raizo;

                                              Upvoted for that statement alone.👍

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                                              • Bugs
                                                Bugs @Daz
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                                                @Daz
                                                Please no, we’ve already got a hateful moon man in the form of Blackbeard (aka the man who never sleeps) who’s better connected with Luffy, especially if the Chariot of the Gods theory is true. Honestly, the only thing that would make Imu worse would be if he turned out the damn goat that liked to hang around Sengoku.

                                                @Ivotas
                                                I don’t mind the Naginata gag. Teach is incredibly arrogant and it makes me laugh anyway; it’s a classic gag but it works. He’s evil Luffy, not evil genius Luffy. But hey if a joke doesn't work, it doesn't work.

                                                The elders being at the top was fine for me; they don't come across as fighters, and if Luffy was going to fight anyone in the WG/Navy, it was going to be Akainu. If anything, a literal overthrow by the people of the world would have been a good finisher for them to show that (as Roger said) “the will of the people can not be stopped”.

                                                To be honest, another thing that disappoints me about Sakazuki’s lack actions is that we don’t get the reverse, a sense of discontent in the Navy with his “justice”. The closest we got was Kuzan willing to fight him for the top title spot (it remains to be seen if Kuzan’s new role is well handled partly because we don’t have much of a clue of what it is), but man, the unease that Tashigi and Smoker got the at the end of Marineford when the marines go after the pirates all hyped and bloodthirsty from their victories (and that Koby yelled about) really should have been something we got more of. But Garp, Koby, Smoker, or Tashigi don’t express any such doubts. I can’t remember if Isshou did either.

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                                                • Ivotas
                                                  Ivotas @Bugs
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                                                  @Bugs
                                                  To me the gag just doesn't work. Even with closing both eyes and accepting all the Anti-Luffy yadda-yadda-yadda it just doesn't work. Just like Luffy, there's times when the character can be stupid and detatched from reality and there's times when he can't. This is clearly one of them. Especially if you consider that the Edward Teach confrontation has been set up for hundreds of chapters then this just is an unacceptable outcome. It is just dumb aswell as it being a dump the author is taking over the readers intelligence.

                                                  I would also argue that the Five Elder Stars always seemed like fighters. True they might be geezers but they have some pretty severe scars which in the OP world pretty makes it very likely to be the result of a fight. Plus geezers in Shonen are always badasses. I even remember that back in the day many people argumented for and against those guys being badasses in their younger years.

                                                  As far as Akainu is concerned I agree. I totally forgot about that point actually. You're totally right. Kuzan made a big deal out of not wanting to be part of a Marine lead by Sakazuki because of his hardline approach. And this is what we get? The only saving grace might be that Kuzan is actually still a Marine. One who has infiltrated Teach's crew as a member of SWORD. There is still the statement from Doflamingo about a person with purpose when talking about Kuzan at the end of Punk Hazard.

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                                                    Blackbeard´s supposed inactivity makes sense for his personality, he ain´t going after things when he does not feel he has the definite upper hand, hence the DF hunting session for example. Of course you can argue he took a risk in Marineford but i don´t think at least for him it has been depicted as such.

                                                    Akainu´s inactivity is more disappointing i agree. He turned from an absolute justice terminator to more or less a bureaucrat which is of course more realistic but nevertheless still disappointing. I have the hope, as faint as it might be that his disagreements with the Gorosei/WG will lead to something substantial but it seems unlikely.

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                                                    • FatDogForMidTerms
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                                                      I'm a simple man with simple brains and this can be a very silly comic and while he's brilliant, Oda clearly isn't above cooking up very illogical plot points to peddle some new marketing schemes, so when I saw Shanks my thoughts were just 'oh that's cool, I've missed him and what a rad dude'.

                                                      Of course I really dig Shanks's Errol Flynn swashbuckler vibes and he's always been one of my faves so ehhhhhh, take my apathy with a grain of salt.

                                                      Greenbull was fine, neat design and cool powers.

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                                                      • Daz
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                                                        The whole Green Bull thing baffles me, thematically. The Wano arc, and the saga as a whole, is all about gathering allies, about beating impossible odds by banding together as opposed to going at it all alone, yet I feel the Green Bull coda goes against this. Like, I “logically” get Momos idea that Wano should be able to defend themselves to some degree, but it feels kinda superfluous and at odds with the massive gathering of allies who just saved the nation. Lack of military might wasn’t the reason Wano fell to Kaidou in the first place either. The final capper of the arc is even Luffy giving Wano his flag, which could tie back into the allies having Wanos back, and bring up the failed attempt to repel Green Bull, but this doesn’t really happen.

                                                        The whole Samurai stand against the admiral feel performative rather than necessary- if Luffy and the others had been out cold and recovering after the battle the encounter could’ve had some weight, but Luffy et al does not just seem fully recovered, but also fully aware of the fight. It feels like they’re “allowing” Momo and the others to try and handle it, which robs the sequence of stakes – I simply don’t believe a solitary Green Bull would stand a chance should Luffy and friends decide to get off their asses. But on the other hand, the whole thing makes Wanos security seem more compromised than it should, considering the whole thing is solved by a random, unaffiliated external force. You just get the impression that Green Bull could show up tomorrow when Luffy and Shanks aren’t around, stomp on the Straw Hat flag, raze the country and annex it into the WG.

                                                        I think a more elegant way to have squared this whole plotline thematically would’ve been to have Green Bull not repelled by Shanks, but the overwhelming ambition musk coming from Luffy and all the other allies, looking down from the capital plateau. This would underscore that Isolationist Wano is now under the protection of more than the Samurai, be a nice capper to the whole international alliance angle. I’m sure I’ll be told several reasons why this specific idea definitely couldn’t work, but my overall point is that I’d prefer a resolution not reliant on completely external Shanks, and that I think the thematic throughline on “Isolationist, self reliant Wano” vs “Part of international alliance Wano” could’ve been stronger, especially if you HAD to strike Green Bull off the to do list here, rather than in an upcoming arc.

                                                        Anyway, aside from all that, I find Green Bull himself underwhelming. The original admiral trio had very defined and contrasting personalities, but Greenie really does feel like simply the bastard child of Lucchi and Akainu. His assholiness doesn’t seem distinct, his various fascist declarations seem pretty stock, more befitting of a throwaway WG zealot character than a full on admiral. His introduction at the prison is also weirdly disjointed from his mission – why is he there? Why is he beating up restrained Beast Pirate prisoners? I mean, it’s to establish his fearsomeness prior to an encounter he ultimately bails on, but still, the lack of justification makes the scene seem pointless. Like, you could’ve had him at least capture King or show ANY sort of interest in him considering what Zoros fight established about the guy, but theres’ no specificity to what Greenie is doing. And yeah yeah yeah we’ll see the guy again and maybe probably surely we can infer and speculate that 141 chapters from now there might be a payoff to the prison scene, but within this arc it still feels like a waste of space. Him growing greenery in a desolated country could’ve been something, could’ve even been a joke when he leaves (“Hey, thanks for reforesting the region” “SHUT UP, FILTHY BARBARIANS!”), or even a bit of characterization – he might be a fascist shouty jerk, but he can’t help himself but grow plants in a wasteland…but the text doesn’t capitalize on the “bad dude, grows flowers” dichotomy in any way.

                                                        As for Shanks, he‘s just so blah at this point to me. The comparative goofball from chapter 1 seems long gone. Like Ivotas says he seems to exist mostly to pop into other peoples plotlines, and here he just feels so detached. And he needn’t be! We’ve already have reactions to Lufy being a “big pirate”, as far back as east blue even, but now his poster is literally the manifestation of the true nature of the DF Shanks made great effort to steal, how about a reaction to that? Shanks makes quick mentions of Momo and Hiyori existing, but maybe we could get a bigger reaction out of the fact that the home of former Roger crewmate Oden is now liberated, that former Rocks Member and Shanks peer/opponent Kaidou has fallen? It just feels again so unspecific, and the fact that theres no justification for why Shanks loitering around Wano, or how he literally projects his ambition musk into the country from outside of it, he can’t help but feel extraneous. And in a massive arc so starved for resolution time, extraneous feels gratuitous and wasteful.

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                                                          Ivotas @Daz
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                                                          @Daz
                                                          I wholeheartadly agree with you Daz. As for Momo went the "we need to take care of it ourselves" aspect after the entire "we need to gather allies to take down Kaido", I would say that Oda sees a clear distinction between the Samurai getting all the help they need to avange Oden and free their country from oppression and showing that they can stand on their own feet after the big bad has been dealt with.

                                                          And just as you said, I don't really think it works (though I've never thought about it until you've brought it up now). I can get behind the desire to send off everybody who helped liberating the country by showing that they can take care of things by themselves now. But the matter of fact is, they cannot because they just had someone else do the heavy lifting liberating the country for them. Yes, Kaido is now gone, but the WG and other Emperors are no pushovers. Expecting to be able to suddenly to keep threats at bay the same way the one person, who they needed someone else to take down for the is just silly.

                                                          I also like the solution that you propose. One thing that could possibly speak against it is, that after the previous Shogun was also protected by a stronger guy from outside country, having yet another guy back the new Shogun might come across as something that does not sit well with the people of Wano that don't know the full extent to how much Luffy and everyone else helped. But the point is that so many samurai were present and witnessed what was going on. I find it hard to believe nobody will pass down stories of how much the Shoguns allies contributed to freeing Wano. Plus it's pretty much a given that Oden will hang out Luffy flag on a big public place anyways, which will pretty much mark Wano as a country protected by the Emperor Strawhat Luffy.

                                                          I fully expect this to happen as it wouldn't be the first time that Oda was inconsequential with supposedly key moments that are supposed to mean something, ultimately being rectonned only shortly after. From the top of my head I can remember Luffy "kidnapping" Rebecca so that she can leave in peace and quiet with her father. Only for few chapters later to find out, that everybody is aware of Rebecca's wherabouts, which then get's topped off by everyone being aware that Scarlet and Kyros were married the entire time, making the stupid fake death story redundant in the first place. I know there's more situations like these but I'm too lazy to think about this too much as it would move further away from the actual topic right now.

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                                                          • cavendishsama
                                                            cavendishsama @Ivotas
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                                                            @Ivotas If I interpret the lie about Scarlet and Kyros correctly it was for other Royals (like from other countries) who wouldn't accept if a Princess married a criminal, not for civilians. Especially since she's the lawful successor of Riku. She'd be attending the Reverie as Queen, and her Royal Consort would be a murderer, that wouldn't look good I guess.
                                                            I think Oda could have been more clear about it though.

                                                            Eh Ryukogyu, I like that he's an evil marine since we've had a lot of 'good' ones. His ability looks cool, but the scene with the Samurai was just awkward. Especially in retrospect where Yamato doesn't leave. I think he should have just picked up the Animal Kingdom pirates, we could have seen is Philosophy and Ability there and then he should have left. Give him a badass line before he leaves. "Got my handsful transporting these fools, but you better watch out...Straw Hat Luffy" or something.
                                                            Would also be funny if people get to Udon and are confused why everythings suddenly green, instead noone acknowledges it all, ugh.

                                                            Shanks not going to see Luffy because of Bartolemeo I like. It's just funny to me that Barto of all people ruined the chance of Luffy meeting his mentor. Also it's not that illogical that Shanks would sail past Wano, last we saw him he was in Marijoa and if we're assuming his territory is further out in the NW he'd sail past it. Obviously the Grand Line is pretty wide, but as I said not that illogical, not saying it works perfectly. But yeah, overall it seems he was mostly there to promote the movie and get Ryukogyu outta there. At least until we see what 'Let's claim the One Piece' actually amounts to.

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                                                            • Ivotas
                                                              Ivotas @cavendishsama
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                                                              @cavendishsama said in Post-Wano plotline roundup: Shanks and Greenbull:

                                                              @Ivotas If I interpret the lie about Scarlet and Kyros correctly it was for other Royals (like from other countries) who wouldn't accept if a Princess married a criminal, not for civilians. Especially since she's the lawful successor of Riku. She'd be attending the Reverie as Queen, and her Royal Consort would be a murderer, that wouldn't look good I guess.
                                                              I think Oda could have been more clear about it though.

                                                              That's a valid assumption. But then we have the same killer being Rebecca's father living together with her. It would still be inconsequential for the royalty to have a problem with Scarlet being married to Kyros but not for Rebecca to be a child of Scarlet and Kyros.

                                                              I mean we could suppose that the relation between Kyros and Rebecca is being kept secret (did he actually come to Marijois too? I don't remember). But then again they could have just kept the Kyros and Scarlet relation a secret (and plan to not have him come to Marijois back then either).

                                                              In the end, the Luffy kidnapping Rebecca thing was inconsequential. He wanted to free her of the shackles of the responsibility of living the life of royalty and grant her wish to just live in piece and quiet with soldier-san. And voila, here we are, Princess Rebecca right there at the reverie. Don't see how Kyros and Scarlet would have been a better kept secret if Doflamingo wouldn't have intervened and they would have just continued to live their lives.

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                                                                cavendishsama @Ivotas
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                                                                @Ivotas I mean, Rebecca is not the Princess anymore, she's at the Reverie as Viola's attendant. But yeah, If simply stepping down from the royal positon is enough for Rebecca to keep living a normal life, it should have been enough for Scarlet too. Otherwise Rebecca would have to fake her death as well. Kyros is at Marijois, I don't think we see him there, but he was on the ship and interacted with Coby.

                                                                Not sure I get your problem with the kidnapping specifically? Kyros was about to leave the country, if Luffy doesn't 'kidnap' her, they don't reunite.

                                                                Man, we're derailing another thread with an off-topic conversation. 😂

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                                                                • Ivotas
                                                                  Ivotas @cavendishsama
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                                                                  @cavendishsama
                                                                  That's pretty much it. The way how Rebecca lives now and everyone seems to be ok with it, makes the entire "kidnap" and innitial outrage kinda pointless in terms of providing an explenation to the citizens why Rebecca is not at the palace.

                                                                  I'm not having a problem with Luffy "kidnapping" her in itself. That's a totally Luffy thing to do. What I'm having a problem with that the entire charade proved to be pointless in the end because everybody knew what was going on in the first place. It kinda take the wind out of the sails for me it wasn't really required in the first place.

                                                                  About Kyros, yes, he was at the ship. But did he also accompany everyone or did he stay behind to guard the ship?

                                                                  Nothing wrong with a little bit off topic. But if you want to me to return the innitial topic then I feel I should tell you that I was about to go to the gym but friggin Shanks showed up, stopped me and left again. Fuck that guy messing with other people's businesses!^^

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                                                                  • cavendishsama
                                                                    cavendishsama @Ivotas
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                                                                    @Ivotas
                                                                    Ah I think I got you now. I would liken it to Chapter 815, the chapter before "Raizo is safe", that ends with Bariete running and yelling "it's an emergency, Samurai have arrived" and everyone was like "here we go, Oda starting a pointless conflict that will make this arc 20 chapters longer...."

                                                                    For me the Dressrosa 'twist' worked, because I thought the Fujitora scene where he realizes the people were only faking to be after Luffy was great. "What kind of man are you? What color is your hair? What shape are your eyes? I suppose I should'nt have closed these eyes, Now I want to take a gander at your face, I reckon it must look kind"

                                                                    But yeah I get that these fakeouts can be annoying if the payoff doesn't work.

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                                                                    • Ivotas
                                                                      Ivotas @cavendishsama
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                                                                      @cavendishsama
                                                                      I absolutely agree that the inner monologue by Fujitora was fantastic. But surely there may have been other ways to achieve with this without pulling a moment that ultimately gett's undone in the end. As Oda so often does.

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