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Late reply, but this is impossible since Kin'emon didn't even know what Den Den Mushi were.
Not sure if it's impossible. Wano people have the Tanishis we don't know since when, despite Kinemon not knowing how to comunicate outised of Wano (in ch 822). It's rather speculative to assert anything there
Whoever the traitor may be, I'm willing to bet that he or she will be called Ace.
Would give it a little extra emotional value with the name and all, especially if Tama might be involved somehow.
@.access:
Fake!Oden went to the trial and make everything worse. Btw, we still need the Korozumi elders to die before the flashback is over besides everything else… this thing can easily go for at least 3 more chapters.
At this point im expecting them to die of old age.
Not sure if it's impossible. Wano people have the Tanishis we don't know since when, despite Kinemon not knowing how to comunicate outised of Wano (in ch 822). It's rather speculative to assert anything there
It's still pretty unlikely. Oden had to communicate with Yasuie through a horse messenger in the latest chapter.
The Tanishi are likely a recent thing. Kin'emon skipped 20 years ahead, so he would skip plenty of tech advances.
My suspicions of the wrinkled old o-baaaa san, that instructed Robin as a geisha , being the traitor are climbing. Now that I think about it, she wouldn't exactly classify as a traitor but a spy. We just had a mini cold war between our heroes and the beast pirates, If Robin is in charge of espionage on Luffy's side what makes us think that Kaido doesn't have his own? Specially being as low key of a character like wrinkled ol' lantern lady is.
Would you like a Blast?
100000000000000 Berries please.
Blasting Destinations: Gotham city, Jaya, central perk, E. R.
My suspicions of the wrinkled old o-baaaa san, that instructed Robin as a geisha , being the traitor are climbing. Now that I think about it, she wouldn't exactly classify as a traitor but a spy. We just had a mini cold war between our heroes and the beast pirates, If Robin is in charge of espionage on Luffy's side what makes us think that Kaido doesn't have his own? Specially being as low key of a character like wrinkled ol' lantern lady is.
She's not really present on the strategy meeting.
Just realized oden is goemon ishikawa, was this mentioned before?
Just realized oden is goemon ishikawa, was this mentioned before?
No idea if it was, but interesting bit of information all the same. I didn't know the character and have no idea if he really was Oda's inspiration, but the hairstyle does look similar and of course there's the boiling. Plus the Witching Hour Boy concept, which ties with Ishikawa as well. Thanks for pointing it.
Also, unrelated but after seeing the small birds panel MrSword linked and the samurais' failed landing on Zou, I'm definitely joining the "traitor Kanjuro" wagon
Yeah, the birds are suspicious as fuck in this context.
Regarding Goemon Ishikawa, couldn't help noticing an amusing fact; that he was a strong opponent to Oda clan.
Who outside of the 9 scabbards know about sunny ship hiding spot in that cave, because that has to be the traitor.
@uniaka:
Who outside of the 9 scabbards know about sunny ship hiding spot in that cave, because that has to be the traitor.
Why are you so obsessively not wanting a Scabbard to be the traitor?
Why are you so obsessively not wanting a Scabbard to be the traitor?
Orochi said he has yet to see any of them, he got mocked by his men for believing in ghosts, as in the 9 scabbards that even have graves and are considered dead for 20 years. And they were too loyal to oden to go from oden fanboy to orochi's underling just like that unless that scabbard goes way back with orochi, before he even meets oden. But orochi was nothing back then, he was yet to begin his rise as shogun.
Funny thing about shinobu, she seems to be the grandaughter of the dead guy oden cooked on when his flashback started.
Probably a stupid question - is it possible the leak came from one of Law's men? Or did what happen between himself and Hawkins tip them off?
@uniaka:
Orochi said he has yet to see any of them, he got mocked by his men for believing in ghosts, as in the 9 scabbards that even have graves and are considered dead for 20 years. And they were too loyal to oden to go from oden fanboy to orochi's underling just like that unless that scabbard goes way back with orochi, before he even meets oden. But orochi was nothing back then, he was yet to begin his rise as shogun.
Funny thing about shinobu, she seems to be the grandaughter of the dead guy oden cooked on when his flashback started.
Yeah but it doesn't have to be allied to Orochi, it is possible this person finds the idea of opening Wano as terrible as it gets, and is helping the dictator that'll keep Wano closed.
Also, that little girl looks like random child number 23,900.
Why are you so obsessively not wanting a Scabbard to be the traitor?
It has to be one of the scabbards.
There's no denying it.
Kanjuro can communicate the info to Orochi by drawing birds and send them to him with messages, he doesn't need Den Den Mushi
In fact, I suspect this is the first thing he did after the 20 year jump:
Oh crap! Never noticed those birds!
Act 3 is been focusing so much in the traitor that'll be weird if it isn't revealed before the Act ends.
My main interest atm is who will find out who the traitor is, and how he'll do it.
@uniaka:
Orochi said he has yet to see any of them, he got mocked by his men for believing in ghosts, as in the 9 scabbards that even have graves and are considered dead for 20 years. And they were too loyal to oden to go from oden fanboy to orochi's underling just like that unless that scabbard goes way back with orochi, before he even meets oden. But orochi was nothing back then, he was yet to begin his rise as shogun.
Funny thing about shinobu, she seems to be the grandaughter of the dead guy oden cooked on when his flashback started.
If the traitor is loyal to Kaido, then Orochi not knowing them wouldn't be surprising. After all, Kaido implied that the traitor in Oden's Castle is one of his men instead of Orochi's specifically.
Orochi would be receiving info from a Kaido agent that he doesn't know the identity of, which is convenient to prevent leaking.
In any case, there's no other alternative. Shinobu's actions in the last chapter make no sense if she was a traitor.
I wonder, had Oden not lied about Shinobu and acknowledged she was on his side on the battle against Kaido, would she be regarded as the 10th Scabbard? Sure she was not there on the moment that gave birth to the term, but since it is used to regard who that fought by Oden's side on said battle, she seems worth of the title.
I'm bringing this up because seeing the Nine Scabbards as actually 10, except the 10th has not "officially" joined the group, works for those who are expecting the SH to replace them in Toki's prediction (since the SH also have a 10th member waiting to fully join the team).
@.access:
I wonder, had Oden not lied about Shinobu and acknowledged she was on his side on the battle against Kaido, would she be regarded as the 10th Scabbard? Sure she was not there on the moment that gave birth to the term, but since it is used to regard who that fought by Oden's side on said battle, she seems worth of the title.
I'm bringing this up because seeing the Nine Scabbards as actually 10, except the 10th has not "officially" joined the group, works for those who are expecting the SH to replace them in Toki's prediction (since the SH also have a 10th member waiting to fully join the team).
That´s what makes the whole traitor thing a reality by now, if say Kanjuro is the snitch, they´ll be 8, Shinobu or Izo make up pretty good for the replacement and make it 9 still.
Wow - awesome find!! Cant believe I didnt notice the hand drawn birds!
That´s what makes the whole traitor thing a reality by now, if say Kanjuro is the snitch, they´ll be 8, Shinobu or Izo make up pretty good for the replacement and make it 9 still.
It's not Izo, he is and will always be part of Whitebeard's crew. He was a Whitebeard crew member for nearly 30? years. Oden left him behind to pursue his own dreams. If Izo was so committed to Oden he would have stowed away upon Roger's ship like Neko and Inu. Izo lived his own life and left Wano behind in order to follow Whitebeard.
Avatar Artist: Aapo Niemi
It's not Izo, he is and will always be part of Whitebeard's crew. He was a Whitebeard crew member for nearly 30? years. Oden left him behind to pursue his own dreams. If Izo was so committed to Oden he would have stowed away upon Roger's ship like Neko and Inu. Izo lived his own life and left Wano behind in order to follow Whitebeard.
He was originally one of Oden's followers still, and Nekomumashi is suspiciously taking longer than planned, and that's aknowledging that he just met with Marco, someone who could've known perfectly of Izo's whereabouts.
Izo better never go back to the Kozuki after how he was treated.
Izo: Oden, I was talking to Inu and Neko… you are coming back, right!?
Oden: Of course. Just a quick detour and will be back soon. Why? You guys want to stay?
Izo: Yeah, we like here and since you are coming back anyways... is that ok?
Oden: Sure, sure.
Izo: But you are definitely coming back, right!?
Oden: Sure!
Izo: Fuck damn it, Oden, you are our ride, you better come back.
Oden: I'm coming back, shit! I said am coming back, then I am coming back! What kind of asshole do you think I am!?
2 years later
Oden: I am not going back.
Roger: Should I send word so he can m...
Oden: Nah. He happy there.
Never mind the fact Inu and Neko apparently were with him in that decision and just left him alone there. I think Izo is that guy everybody secretly hates.
Oden treated all of the scabbards like that, its really just that he still got to die in Wano instead of any other place.
Besides, Izo probably visited Wano at some point when Kin, Kan, Kiku , Raizo and Momo were gone, Ashura Douji was now Shuten Maru, Kawamatsu was in prison and Denjiro nowhere to be found, so he was like mkay, I'm outta this place.
But if he listens to word that all of the gang its back again, he might actually come back.
The idea of Izo and other important characters like Whitebeard, Rayleigh, Shanks, etc being completely unaware of Oden's death really bothers me to be honest. When it was revealed that there was time travel it really threw things for a loop. I caught myself asking the question, why hasn't the word of Oden's death spread around to important characters, obviously that would bring war to Kaido's Doorstep when Whitebeard and Rayleigh figure out what happened. I can understand that Wano has closed borders and Kaido and Orochi control all information that goes in and out of Wano, as well as that Rayleigh has said after the Roger Pirates had broken up he hasn't spoken to any of the crew since then, but what has Izo been doing for the last 2 years since Ace died? Other than being occupied with the Grudge War a year ago, it seems difficult to believe that he didn't have a reason to return to Wano by now.
Izo's point of view.
My brother and I are orphaned and starving. Wow, this guy will give me food and take care of me, I think I'll stick with him.
*Follows said caretaker onto unknown ship leaving his brother and country behind.
Oh, now this whole crew has embraced me and treats me like family with Whitebeard as the dad.
Hey Oden, you're leaving but definitely coming back right? -Yeah, sure kid
Well that asshole and that cat and dog friend just abandoned me, screw them, I have a real family that cares about me now.
The End.
Izo's point of view.
My brother and I are orphaned and starving. Wow, this guy will give me food and take care of me, I think I'll stick with him.
*Follows said caretaker onto unknown ship leaving his brother and country behind.
Oh, now this whole crew has embraced me and treats me like family with Whitebeard as the dad.
Hey Oden, you're leaving but definitely coming back right? -Yeah, sure kid
Well that asshole and that cat and dog friend just abandoned me, screw them, I have a real family that cares about me now.
The End.
Never thought about his brother? I bet he came back to wano at some point to check on Kiku
Izo's point of view.
My brother and I are orphaned and starving. Wow, this guy will give me food and take care of me, I think I'll stick with him.
*Follows said caretaker onto unknown ship leaving his brother and country behind.
Oh, now this whole crew has embraced me and treats me like family with Whitebeard as the dad.
Hey Oden, you're leaving but definitely coming back right? -Yeah, sure kid
Well that asshole and that cat and dog friend just abandoned me, screw them, I have a real family that cares about me now.
The End.
Makes sense but he abandoned Kiku in this context. I don't even believe he resents Oden or anything like that, Whitebeard is such a charismatic and respectable character if Izo decided to fully follow him that's not a big deal.
And I guess we dont really know much about Izos character, relationship with other Scabbards and Kiku specifically. I'm sure Oda will spoon feed us a reason why this character didnt come see his sibling in 22 years lol.
To be fair, I doubt he could just casually go there. He was one of Whitebeard men and Wano was Kaido's headquarters then, I believe an Emperor's crew would avoid invading another's territory unless the two were declaring war (we saw how Kaido reacted to Linlin going there).
@.access:
To be fair, I doubt he could just casually go there. He was one of Whitebeard men and Wano was Kaido's headquarters then, I believe an Emperor's crew would avoid invading another's territory unless the two were declaring war (we saw how Kaido reacted to Linlin going there).
Which would be all the more reason for checking on his brother, if his own country was conquered. And abandoned by Oden.
Probably a stupid question - is it possible the leak came from one of Law's men? Or did what happen between himself and Hawkins tip them off?
I don't think it is possible at this point. When it first became clear that someone was leaking info, they were a possibility–unlikely, but possible--but by now, too much of the info leaked is about stuff they don't know about.
EDIT: And on the talk about the 9 Red Scabbards being the possible traitor, and how it wouldn't be satisfying if it were Denjiro, writing the above reminded me: even if Denjiro does know Hiyori's still alive (which he would if he is Kyoshiro), how would he know where she's hiding right now? That kinda seems to clear him since he wasn't there when Zoro and Kawamatsu told everyone else about her.
Also, this is a more minor one that may not necessarily rule out either of them, but you'd think that, if either Raizo or Kiku is the mole, they could have given Orochi a more detailed description about what's wrong in Udon--"the jailers have been brainwashed by someone with Devil Fruit powers to lie and say that everything's fine, so don't believe them if they claim that"--rather than whatever apparently-vague thing that Orochi did get where he thought something was up, but then was convinced otherwise after one phone call to the jail.
Hidden:
@.access:
To be fair, I doubt he could just casually go there. He was one of Whitebeard men and Wano was Kaido's headquarters then, I believe an Emperor's crew would avoid invading another's territory unless the two were declaring war (we saw how Kaido reacted to Linlin going there).
From what we as readers know, the assumption is that Izo and any other major character with a relationship to Oden is not aware Oden is dead, let alone Wano is Kaido's territory. These characters being ignorant of this for so long is my issue.
Now that I think about it, the only people who we know are aware of Wanos occupation are the Shs and allies, and the Marines. I just can't understand how chars like Shanks, and Rayleigh knowing about Odens situation sitting still when learning about it.
From what we as readers know, the assumption is that Izo and any other major character with a relationship to Oden is not aware Oden is dead, let alone Wano is Kaido's territory. These characters being ignorant of this for so long is my issue.
I don't know why you would be under that impression, unless I am forgetting something Wano being Kaido's turf was always treated as common knowledge.
@.access:
I don't know why you would be under that impression, unless I am forgetting something Wano being Kaido's turf was always treated as common knowledge.
Kaido personally ordered to cover up any incident involving pirates, so it wouldn't surprise me if the world doesn't know that Kaido owns the place, let alone having his headquarters there.
Kaido personally ordered to cover up any incident involving pirates, so it wouldn't surprise me if the world doesn't know that Kaido owns the place, let alone having his headquarters there.
That's inside Wano, not the rest of the world. Kaido has control over what information is spread within his territory, not everywhere else.
When Linlin announced she was going to Wano, all the reactions were about her and Kaido meeting, nobody was reacting to "so Kaido is in Wano?", that was a known fact.
I mean, Wano may be a hard place to get to, but not impossible. Whitebeard Pirates did it, Roger Pirates did it (twice), Moria Pirates did it, Spade Pirates did it, Strawhat Pirates did it with only half the crew (and missing the helmsman), the other half of Strawhat Pirates also did it along with Heart Pirates and Zou's Musketeers, Big Mom Pirates would have done it if the Beast Pirates didn't took direct actions to prevent it.
Those only to list the cases we know about, I'm sure many more managed to get there and leave the country alive to spread information of its place - and that's assuming it was secret to begin with, Wano is not part of the World Government, they don't need to hide the fact they allied with a pirate. We even saw random pirates knew about the fight between Moria and Kaido, so it's definitely not like Kaido's existence is shrouded in mystery.
@.access:
That's inside Wano, not the rest of the world. Kaido has control over what information is spread within his territory, not everywhere else.
When Linlin announced she was going to Wano, all the reactions were about her and Kaido meeting, nobody was reacting to "so Kaido is in Wano?", that was a known fact.I mean, Wano may be a hard place to get to, but not impossible. Whitebeard Pirates did it, Roger Pirates did it (twice), Moria Pirates did it, Spade Pirates did it, Strawhat Pirates did it with only half the crew (and missing the helmsman), the other half of Strawhat Pirates also did it along with Heart Pirates and Zou's Musketeers, Big Mom Pirates would have done it if the Beast Pirates didn't took direct actions to prevent it.
Those only to list the cases we know about, I'm sure many more managed to get there and leave the country alive to spread information of its place - and that's assuming it was secret to begin with, Wano is not part of the World Government, they don't need to hide the fact they allied with a pirate.
There is a difference between Kaido being in Wano and Wano being officially Kaido's territory. The Marines know little to nothing about the place (up until Drakes infiltration) and Orochi deals with the Government in secret. He might wave Kaido's backing in their face, but he's the one who is officially in power.
Maybe the higher ranking indivduals in the world know or at least assume that Wano is Kaido's territory, that's possible. But nothing suggests that Kaido ruling the place is a known fact.
If Izo isn't gonna show up in the present, I'm not sure what's the point of him being a follower of Oden at all, especially considering how contrived his whole story it. I know he always seemed to be from Wano. But he's like, super minor. Oda didn't need to make him a pseudo-scabbard and even giving him a local sibling if he didn't have plans for him.
I remember Hawkins asking Luffy if he knew who "ruled Wano from the shadows", so I guess it is supposed to be a mystery about Kaido?
I think the info of Oden's death was unknown to non-wano residents up until Ace gave it to Whitebeard. Sengoku mention they have no idea what happen to the samurai that was travelling with Roger.
As far as Kaido being in Wano it seems to be pretty public at this point. But there's no telling it was 3-4 years prior. It could easily be Drake leaking info after finally an in with the crew.
If Izo isn't gonna show up in the present, I'm not sure what's the point of him being a follower of Oden at all, especially considering how contrived his whole story it. I know he always seemed to be from Wano. But he's like, super minor. Oda didn't need to make him a pseudo-scabbard and even giving him a local sibling if he didn't have plans for him.
Oda does a lot of stuff he doesn't need to.
It's not impossible to get into Wano or learn about it. Otama met Ace only 4 years ago and he stayed there for several weeks. Law's crew got in, the Strawhats came in 2 different groups, clearly Kaido and Orochi's men don't have the best security around the place and can't even notice new people. The only ones they kind of stopped was Big Mom but Big Mom still got in.
I'm still leaning towards Kiku, but that tidbit about the birds is interesting. But what would Kanjuro's motives for being the traitor be?
I'm still leaning towards Kiku, but that tidbit about the birds is interesting. But what would Kanjuro's motives for being the traitor be?
Could be anything. He might have some dying family member that needs money for treatment or maybe Kaido just straight up kidnapped a member of his family. Maybe it was Kanjuro's lifelong dream to see his artwork come to life and Kaido provided his devil fruit. I think the reason for the traitor is going to be some sort of manipulation.
Better yet, Oden probably slept with his wife because Oden is a terrible human being and he did it for revenge and to wipe all memory of Oden and his followers from existence.
Avatar Artist: Aapo Niemi
Could be anything. He might have some dying family member that needs money for treatment or maybe Kaido just straight up kidnapped a member of his family. Maybe it was Kanjuro's lifelong dream to see his artwork come to life and Kaido provided his devil fruit. I think the reason for the traitor is going to be some sort of manipulation.
So you're thinking the traitor isn't actively hostile toward Oden and-
Better yet, Oden probably slept with his wife because Oden is a terrible human being and he did it for revenge and to wipe all memory of Oden and his followers from existence.
Oh.
That escalated quickly.
There is a difference between Kaido being in Wano and Wano being officially Kaido's territory. The Marines know little to nothing about the place (up until Drakes infiltration) and Orochi deals with the Government in secret. He might wave Kaido's backing in their face, but he's the one who is officially in power.
Maybe the higher ranking indivduals in the world know or at least assume that Wano is Kaido's territory, that's possible. But nothing suggests that Kaido ruling the place is a known fact.
Ace spent time in Wano at some point didn't he? One would think he would have mentioned that to pops.
Better yet, Oden probably slept with his wife because Oden is a terrible human being and he did it for revenge and to wipe all memory of Oden and his followers from existence.
I would love if this was the motive 
Re : Wano being Kaido's turf, even if it is public knowledge it still doesn't mean Whitebeard would have had enough reason to risk his whole crew into a full-scale Yonkou war, if he learned Oden's death after the fact. If he knew Oden was imprisoned, or received a plea for help and didn't move, then yes that completely breaks the "family" side of his character. But Oden never called out to anyone during those 5 years - he didn't even confide to his closest family or retainers ! And it's likely news of his death will only reach the rest of the world weeks or months, if not years, after the fact. What would Whitebeard, or the remaining Roger Pirates, do by then ? Hold a grudge against Kaido ? Sure. Invade Wano for revenge and to free their fallen former-comrade's land from the clutches of whatever evil ? Hell no, they're pirates, not samaritans.
I could definitely picture a scene where Izo would push for action when he ears the news and Whitebeard reluctantly refuses because it's too late and he doesn't want to risk the rest of his sons.
Better yet, Oden probably slept with his wife because Oden is a terrible human being and he did it for revenge and to wipe all memory of Oden and his followers from existence.
Doubt it happens. If Japan were Turkey or Greece, we may have a Helen of Troy. But Wano's big reference is Japan and Oden's story is a samurai's tale, it's doubtful infidelity as a major motive in its plot.
I was thinking the motives of the traitor (who should be a scabbar) are related to watching the people of Wano suffering day by day while Oden only humiliates himself. But one wonders why, as a reaction, the traitor allies with the oppresors… mmm... It's hard to predict what could it be... Maybe something related to honor... No idea.
As for what the marine knows about Wano and Kaido, it's rather clear. They are worried because of Kaido and BM meeting. In terms of power distribution in the new world, it's pretty much clear there's a huge threat in Onigashima, which is the center of a territory. Most likely that info is the key to make the marine appear in wano at some critical moment.
