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    Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...

    Chapter 935: Queen

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    • Daz
      Daz
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      @Riccardo
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      @Riccardo:

      For the uninformed: https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-183717/chapter/mrs-chapter-183930 page 21
      I agree with you btw, the gag of Sanji being a pervert is funny especially because it's so absurd. Sometimes I think people just say they hate his perverted actions because they think they are supposed to say that?

      That sounds a whole lot like the concept of "virtue signaling", which is commonly used to dismiss the opinions of progressive people - according to virtue signaling people calling foul on stuff like Sanjis pervyness don't really mean what they say, but are just saying it in order to uh, get internet points, which I guess can be exchanged for something or other. Anyway, If one calls out "Virtue Signaling!" in order to skip over the substance of others criticism entirely in order to defend something because it must be defended by default, one is just providing a shallow knee-jerk "virtue signal" of their own.

      @Riccardo:

      The fact that he does something that is obviously not ok makes the joke funny. But hey, if people wanna make a fuss about an obvious joke, I won't stand in their way.

      "Its a joke" can never absolve something of criticism. How the joke is told, in what context and what it implies also matters.

      For instance, even if Sanjis perviness is presented as exaggeratedly goofy, it takes place within a series that has near-universally agreed upon issues with its portrayal of women, and where said women are almost always drawn with the male gaze in mind and used for fanservice. Sometimes Sanjis pervyness can even set up fanservice, such as when it allows Nami to grope her boobs in the freezing Punk Hazard wasteland, and with chapters like this Oda is inviting us to gawk at the subject of Sanjis desire, essentially assuming we're just as pervy as him. Its hard to write him off as "he's supposed to be a comedecially huge creep in the readers eyes!" when that is the case.

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      • MetaMario
        MetaMario @Blissed
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        @Blissed:

        I think I've seen this defense almost word for word before, but for Mineta from MHA lol

        Lol, everyone I've talked to hates Mineta with a passion. From what I've seen (not much), he's just an annoying grapehead kid.

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        • KageKageKing
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          The difference is that Mineta is a pervert almost 100% of the time while Sanji can be used to do other things.

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          • Roronoa Zacho
            Roronoa Zacho @Daz
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            @Daz:

            I find it a wee bit weird that Luffy has had no problem using haki before while at deaths door - like, that other time he was in prison and were poisoned and freezing AF - but here he apparantly cannot, while simultaneously dropkicking a Yonkou officer to the face.

            But then again, haki is not exactly known for its consistency as a concept.

            Apart from that the chapter provides some wonky pacing once again, but also some fun times at the prison with Queen, easily the best Beast pirate so far.

            Didn't Luffy use haki (an elephant gun iirc) while being completely underwater against Surume or Hody? If that's the case, then seastone >>>>>>>>> sea water.

            And I agree about Queen: best (or most oda-ish) Beast pirate.

            There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

            But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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            • Kdom
              Kdom @Ukimix
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              @Ukimix:

              I like OP physics: the suppression of the powers of a DF user depends on the amount of sea-stone, but also it depends on the amount of the user's will power. So will power can change material facts. Cool. It wouldn't be weird if in the future we see a warrior with great will power who is inmune to sea-stone.

              Will power can solve everything ! That is one of shonen absolute truth 🙂

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              • Razh
                Razh @KageKageKing
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                @KageKageKing:

                The difference is that Mineta is a pervert almost 100% of the time while Sanji can be used to do other things.

                There's also a slight difference in appearance. Sanji is tall and handsome. Mineta is an ugly midget.

                Originally Posted by Outerspec

                Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                • HeartOfDarkness
                  HeartOfDarkness @Daz
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                  @Daz:

                  That sounds a whole lot like the concept of "virtue signaling", which is commonly used to dismiss the opinions of progressive people

                  I don't think you really understand the concept of virtue signaling, at least how lots of people use it online, if you think it's just there to dismiss opinions of progressive people.

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                  • Kfunk
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                    I'm not offended by Sanji being a pervert.
                    I simply find his gags to have become stale and forced to the point where I see him as gag character with serious moments instead of the opposite.

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                    • Ukimix
                      Ukimix @Kdom
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                      @Kdom:

                      Will power can solve everything ! That is one of shonen absolute truth 🙂

                      Shounen guys get it right. Will power is the key to the universe… But jokes are needed. That´s why we read comics 😜

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                        • Daz
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                          @HeartOfDarkness
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                          @HeartOfDarkness:

                          I don't think you really understand the concept of virtue signaling, at least how lots of people use it online, if you think it's just there to dismiss opinions of progressive people.

                          That may be, but how would you define it then? I have never seen any context where the term didn't have an explicitly negative connotation, or call-out function. To me it always seems to be

                          Person A: "I think X issue is problematic"
                          Person B: "X is fine! You're just virtue signaling!"

                          Like, I heard this exact exchange in a danish podcast just earlier today. But do people go "If I may signal my virtues for a moment…" now, or what?

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                          • wolfwood
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                            I thought virtue signaling refered to when your taking of a stance on an issue is hollow and more based on you wanting to be seen in a certain light than actually caring about what it's all about.

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                            • Riddler
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                              @Blissed:

                              I think I've seen this defense almost word for word before, but for Mineta from MHA lol

                              I don't know MHA. I guess the defense wasn't viewed as justified in Mineta's case?

                              @Razh:

                              Just like the gag itself.

                              At this point the character is just a weak, obnoxiously sleazy shadow of his former self. Toning it down while cranking the volume on some of more serious aspects of his personality would go a LONG way.

                              I agree that Oda way overuses the joke and it has gotten rather stale. And of course it doesn't help that, in contrast to Zoro's "bad sense of direction" running gag, this one paints the character in a rather unlikable light. But being annoyed by a tired old gag and being outraged over a character being a pervert are two different things and I was only talking about the latter case.

                              While I do agree that toning this particular joke down while focusing more on Sanji's serious side would help his character a lot, we just had a whole dramatic arc for him where he was pretty much serious all throughout and barely showed his perverted side at all, so I think this statement about his character is a little bit over-blown.

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                              • .access timeco.
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                                I think what Daz is saying is that the concept of "virtue signaling" only exists - or at least became a common place - on the mouth of people who use it to criticize progressive stances, putting a negative label to dismiss them.

                                The he (?) proceeded to say that labeling other people opinions as "virtue signaling" became a sort of virtue signaling in itself because, in doing so, the person tries to make it sound as if they are actually worried about the cause the other person supposedly is using to gain internet points while they are actually just being dismissive of the whole subject… or something like that.

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                                • Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                  So I was doing a bit of math. Law said on Punk Hazard that Kaido had around 500 SMILE users. We know from Zou Sanji is worth 1000 men and Zoro 2000, and Kin'emon stated that Ashura Doji, Kawamatsu, and Denjiro are each worth 100 men in battle. Since Luffy is Zoro and Sanji's captain, let's project him to be worth 3000 men, and Jinbe will also be worth 1000. Shinobu estimated they'd recruit 500 samurai without Hyogoro, but since he's teamed up with Luffy and will obviously come into play let's assume they quintuple their recruits to 2500, since Hyogoro ruled over 5 village bosses. The Straw Hat Grand Fleet has 5640 members. Let's estimate the military forces of the Mink Tribe to be around 50 members, and since they're obviously gonna fight on a night of a full moon and thus activate Sulong, let's estimate their military strength as 2500 people. Then, of course, there's the amnesiac Big Mom. Let's say a typical giant is worth 500 men in battle. Big Mom killed a giant at the age of 5. She's around 13 times as old as she was then, making her roughly worth 6500 men in battle.

                                  Aside from the SMILE users, you have the Pleasures, who basically don't count as fighters, Drake and Hawkins crews, Headliners with real fruits like Page One, the three Calamities, and Kaido. Kaido's gonna need a lot to bring him down, but his intro only stated "If it's 1-on-1, Kaido will win", thus not eliminating the possibility that Kaido could lose in a 2 v 1 fight. So let's lowball him as being worth 2 people in battle. On the Wano natives' side, let's say there are only 500 samurai left on Orochi's side, there can't be that many people who live on Wano can there?

                                  Thus, the final battle on Onigashima will pit the rough equivalent of 25,000 alliance members vs. 1100 Beasts Pirates. Gonna be an absolute snoozefest. NPMS Alliance too OP, Oda, pls nerf.

                                  Spoiler:

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                                    uniaka ikuzakas
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                                    That is why BM needs to wake up and ally with kaidou(along with her crew), only way the final battle will be fair.

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                                      Don't forget that the Whitebeard Pirates are almost certainly going to show up and join the alliance too. But where they go, Weevil will probably follow, and I have no idea how he'll fit into this.

                                      I get the feeling the Blackbeard Pirates (+Moria) will show up at some point too. I'm not sure who they'd initially go after, but at the very end I think they'll go after Kaidou. But hopefully they'll mess with the Strawhat alliance before that.

                                      There's also a non-zero chance of the Marines/CP0 showing up.

                                      Originally Posted by MrBits

                                      Place your bets. Is [AlphaMale/AlphaBro, an obvious ban evader] going to get banned again today, tomorrow, or in a week?

                                      Originally Posted by AlphaBro

                                      okay let's bet . Would love to see your losing face next week !

                                      An actual bet and conversation on the Chapter 905 thread, literally an hour before he got banned again.

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                                      • B
                                        Blissed @Riddler
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                                        @Riddler:

                                        I don't know MHA. I guess the defense wasn't viewed as justified in Mineta's case?

                                        Indeed, it was not.

                                        @MrBits:

                                        Don't forget that the Whitebeard Pirates are almost certainly going to show up and join the alliance too.

                                        How can anyone confidently say this when Marco literally said he wasn't coming? They didn't look for the other Whitebeard Pirates either, just Marco.

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                                        • Johnny B. Decent
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                                          Can I just chime in on the discussion about Kaido's crew that I hate how their ranks are named after show biz terms?

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                                          • HeartOfDarkness
                                            HeartOfDarkness @Daz
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                                            @Daz:

                                            That may be, but how would you define it then? I have never seen any context where the term didn't have an explicitly negative connotation, or call-out function. To me it always seems to be

                                            Person A: "I think X issue is problematic"
                                            Person B: "X is fine! You're just virtue signaling!"

                                            Like, I heard this exact exchange in a danish podcast just earlier today. But do people go "If I may signal my virtues for a moment…" now, or what?

                                            The concept of virtue signaling is not so much just about dismissing the opinion of progressive people but rather used as a way to describe how certain people use modern progressive views as some sort of checklist that every fictional work needs to have.

                                            The best examples of this would be looking at the reception for Ghostbuster's 2016 and Black Panther. Both movies, in certain ways, reflect progressive views and if you were to criticize those movies with actual legit points and arguments, you still would be called like "straight white male" or "sexist" or "racist". Like you gotta be a women-hating-sexist pig if you don't enjoy the fifth-grader humor of Ghostbusters or a black-hating-racist if you don't enjoy Black Panter and found it to be your typical Marvel movie that is trying very hard to be seen as something serious.

                                            That's where people, myself included, would use the word "virtue signaling" mainly because the movies aren't being praised for their own merits or their direction or anything that makes them unique or simply good movies. These movies are talked about or praised because they reflect modern western views but in the most basic form. It's like "women power = good, men = bad, black = good, white = bad" in terms of how lots of journalist and critics view modern movies. If you were to change the genders of the main lead cast of Ghostbusters or change the cast of Black Panther to have white people and have everything be same then would you say their reception would be the same? I sure don't think so the praise and reception are purely masked by "women" and "black people".

                                            Or another would be that say, you and I both agree that Oda's views of women aren't in any way the best or the most "healthy". But they very much represent who he is, just like how every other aspect of the series. Now would I like to see Oda change or have a moment where he understands his own views and incorporates that into the story? Like him having a moment of growth? Absolutely. But a virtue signaler would want to change that aspect to reflect the more acceptive view even if doesn't reflect Oda, not because they would want that to be explored or anything. But simply because it is modern and it is accepted. It would go from "Oda is One Piece" to "One Piece is whatever popular consensuses are".

                                            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                            @.access:

                                            I think what Daz is saying is that the concept of "virtue signaling" only exists - or at least became a common place - on the mouth of people who use it to criticize progressive stances, putting a negative label to dismiss them.

                                            The he (?) proceeded to say that labeling other people opinions as "virtue signaling" became a sort of virtue signaling in itself because, in doing so, the person tries to make it sound as if they are actually worried about the cause the other person supposedly is using to gain internet points while they are actually just being dismissive of the whole subject… or something like that.

                                            I am one of those who very commonly use the word "SJW" or "virtue signaling" but I'm also progressive. I have seen a crap ton of people who are also like me and hate the concept of virtue signaling. As it represents more of pandering to the modern audience and being afraid of actually presenting what you want. An author nowadays doesn't matter as much as simply throwing checklist stuff to hit the quotas.

                                            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                            @wolfwood:

                                            I thought virtue signaling referred to when your taking of a stance on an issue is hollow and more based on you wanting to be seen in a certain light than actually caring about what it's all about.

                                            Yep.

                                            Basically pretending to be enraged about something that you don't really care about but you want other people to think you do.

                                            Like how certain "feminists" online want talk about the portrayal of women but then would flip their shit if they saw a woman being her own self and disregard them. I remember seeing a video where some women were rallying for "women rights" to be their own person, be equal and have a choice. Then they saw another women talk about the fact that she would love to be a housewife and others flipped their shit. And from what I understand, lots of feminist hate the idea of housewife and anyone who does that regardless of whether they actually wanted that or not.

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                                              TommyDunns @Johnny B. Decent
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                                              @S.C.:

                                              Can I just chime in on the discussion about Kaido's crew that I hate how their ranks are named after show biz terms?

                                              Sure, but why do you feel that way?

                                              I don't really have any feeling towards it one way or another, the theme of animal circus is kind of interesting in my opinion. I prefer Stephen's choice of Lead Performer over All-star because All-star reminds me of sports, whereas Lead Perfomer fits the theme better imo.
                                              The only gripe I have with it is the Headliners are for the most part jobbers outside of the Tobi Roppo, (which just sounds like a cool word because it wasn't translated lol) which kind of diminishes the fact of headline as a term = big deal, but I guess it is warranted given the strength of Luffy and the crew.

                                              Big Mom's ministers were more interesting because what they were the ministers of was a clue to their character, but it was also a plus because we were in their territory, the novelty of Tottoland enhanced everything.

                                              I guess the Animal Kingdom Pirates have to put on a real circus show for us for the names to have good meaning.

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                                                @TommyDunns:

                                                The only gripe I have with it is the Headliners are for the most part jobbers outside of the Tobi Roppo, (which just sounds like a cool word because it wasn't translated lol) which kind of diminishes the fact of headline as a term = big deal, but I guess it is warranted given the strength of Luffy and the crew.

                                                Headliner is just a rank that encompasses all sorts of people within the Beast Pirates, just like it was for Ministers in WCI. Just like how you can go from Chiffon and Flampe to characters like Perospero and Katakuri within the Minister rank, Headliners serve the same purpose in covering characters like Holdem and Hawkins.

                                                Only conclusion I feel one can really make this early into the arc is to continue to have low expectations for the SMILE users. Anyone that isn't a SMILE user would be worth paying attention relatively speaking, so hopefully we get some actual Zoan users outside of the Tobi Roppo.

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                                                • Johnny B. Decent
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                                                  @TommyDunns:

                                                  Sure, but why do you feel that way?

                                                  I don't really have any feeling towards it one way or another, the theme of animal circus is kind of interesting in my opinion. I prefer Stephen's choice of Lead Performer over All-star because All-star reminds me of sports, whereas Lead Perfomer fits the theme better imo.
                                                  The only gripe I have with it is the Headliners are for the most part jobbers outside of the Tobi Roppo, (which just sounds like a cool word because it wasn't translated lol) which kind of diminishes the fact of headline as a term = big deal, but I guess it is warranted given the strength of Luffy and the crew.

                                                  Big Mom's ministers were more interesting because what they were the ministers of was a clue to their character, but it was also a plus because we were in their territory, the novelty of Tottoland enhanced everything.

                                                  I guess the Animal Kingdom Pirates have to put on a real circus show for us for the names to have good meaning.

                                                  It goes from Pleasures and Gifters to Headliners and All-Stars…to Governor-General. It seems all over the place.

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                                                    @Blissed:

                                                    Headliner is just a rank that encompasses all sorts of people within the Beast Pirates, just like it was for Ministers in WCI. Just like how you can go from Chiffon and Flampe to characters like Perospero and Katakuri within the Minister rank, Headliners serve the same purpose in covering characters like Holdem and Hawkins.

                                                    The only conclusion I feel one can really make this early into the arc is to continue to have low expectations for the SMILE users. Anyone that isn't a SMILE user would be worth paying attention relatively speaking, so hopefully, we get some actual Zoan users outside of the Tobi Roppo.

                                                    There are still the Gifters and Pleasures, but they are so low down on the totem pole that they aren't worth mentioning. The thing is some of these Headliners get Oda Boxes which is like hey look at me, I'm relevant but in reality, you're expendable. I guess I've been conditioned by Oda boxes to believe, he wants us to know about them, their powers, their name etc. But because they are so numerous it falls flat, I don't even remember the hippo zoan guy's name for example.

                                                    I agree with you about Smile users.

                                                    Another thought that comes to mind is what fearsome animals are left to be represented? Oda tried to pull a fast one on us thinking that the Lion Zoan would be revealed with Holdem (which tbh was a good gag lol.) The ancient theme is strong amongst the Lead Performers so as much as people say Scorpion (which is still cool) I think it will be an ancient version to match Jack and King.

                                                    A Lion is such a cool animal that I don't know if Oda would just shoo it in with the Tobi Roppo. Tiger, Bear, Cheetah, Rhinoceros, Gorilla you name it. Alot of Zoans were already displayed in the manga but he must be saving some of these. This isn't the Zoan devil fruits last hurrah necessarily, but there are so many that I don't know how he can make them all count.

                                                    The thing is I doubt he would give a stereotypically cool animal zoan to someone outside of Lead Performers or Tobi Roppo, people would perceive it as a waste. He needs to give them a mid tier animal Zoan like a Moose or something lol.

                                                    @S.C.:

                                                    It goes from Pleasures and Gifters to Headliners and All-Stars…to Governor-General. It seems all over the place.

                                                    I already spoke about the choice of Lead Performers over All-Stars in my previous post.

                                                    As far as Governor-General is concerned, in Viz he's called the Supreme Commander instead. Here's Stephen talking about why he chose to translate the term "Sotoku" like that instead of what it was literally used for in its historical context. https://soundcloud.com/onepiecepodcast/episode-543-trafalgar-lawfully-married#t=7:45 from 7:45 to 11:55.
                                                    Governor-General sounds dumb for a name of a Pirate Captain honestly. In Canada, the Governor General represents the Queen lol, so it definitely does not work for someone of Kaido's status.

                                                    TLDL; "Sotuku" was used historically as Governor General and/or Viceroy, basically the representative of Japan over a colony. Also Oda used this same term for Judge, but he used Generalissimo for that translation ( He explains it much better than me, just listen).

                                                    The progression from Pleasures and Gifters (clowns of the circus, he's got this one down) to Headliners, to Lead Performers, to Supreme Commander is a bit better.
                                                    Scans also translate his crew to Beast Pirates, which is kind of bland imo, and Animal Kingdom Pirates has a more encompassing feel to it.

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                                                      Blissed @TommyDunns
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                                                      @TommyDunns:

                                                      There are still the Gifters and Pleasures, but they are so low down on the totem pole that they aren't worth mentioning. The thing is some of these Headliners get Oda Boxes which is like "hey look at me, I'm relevant" but in reality you're expendable. I guess I've been conditioned by Oda boxes to believe, he wants us to know about them, their powers, their name etc. But because they are so numerous it falls flat, I don't even remember the hippo zoan guy's name for example.

                                                      Hippo dude's name is Dobon.

                                                      But eh, I never saw the bolded as that. The purpose is literally just to name them. He's done for it for even weaker, more irrelevant characters like Mouseman or Batman lol. At the end of the day, regardless of their usefulness, we need to know the names/aliases of the people in Kaido's crew. I mean yea sure, sometimes a character getting a box introduction can make them stand out, but in this context, it's not a big deal. Hell, we literally had Daifugo (scorpion dude) only introduced after Luffy kicked him in the face. Same thing happened back in WCI, a lot of the characters got boxes despite not having done anything. But it was still appreciated since people wanted to know who they were, how they fit into the family, etc.

                                                      Another thought that comes to mind is what fearsome animals are left to be represented?

                                                      I guess I'm a little surprised a Tiger Zoan hasn't happened yet, but I don't have anything I particularly desire myself, namely since Oda has the potential to make anything work. Yes, stuff like a lion, another dinosaur, etc. will be naturally more exciting for a lot of people, but ultimately it comes down to the character's fighting style. Rob Lucci looked cool, but his threat came from his mastery of the Rokushiki fighting style. Kaku was a damn giraffe man, and yet he was one of Zoro's toughest fights, and was really cool to watch.

                                                      So even if the animal the Zoan DF is based on is "lame", it won't matter that much.

                                                      Oda tried to pull a fast one on us thinking that the Lion Zoan would be revealed with Holdem (which tbh was a good gag lol.) The ancient theme is strong amongst the Lead Performers so as much as people say Scorpion ( which is still cool) I think it will be an ancient version to match Jack and King.

                                                      There are ancient versions of scorpions, so that wouldn't be an issue.

                                                      The thing is I doubt he would give a stereotypically cool animal zoan to someone outside of Lead Performers or Tobi Roppo, people would perceive it as a waste. He needs to give them a mid tier animal Zoan like a Moose or something lol.

                                                      Given that he has Ancient Zoans (and maybe Mythical?) to work with for the Tobi Roppo and Calamities, I highly doubt he'd care. I rather see them over regular Zoan DFs anyhow.

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                                                        Please correct me if i am wrong but did Oda swapped Kanjuro's original design (silhoutte in chapter 725) with Kamazou the manslayer (guy with ponytail) and Kanjuro's second redesign silhoutte (volume 73) with Kawamatsu?
                                                        Makes me wonder why..

                                                        Chapter 725 - https://m.imgur.com/FQ677QT

                                                        Volume 73 - https://m.imgur.com/2DkTU7h

                                                        I am just guessing how kawamatsu look, between kanjuro's 2nd silhoutte v73 and Komamura (Bleach). Or kawamatsu might wearing hat like Oars Jr. and that person talking to Crocus in one of chapter coverpage srory.

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                                                        • kevo_koma
                                                          kevo_koma @Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                          @Kaido:

                                                          probably sarcastic math

                                                          Eh, I think they meant that they were worth 1000 normal men. Normal is very very weak. So they are worth 1000 really week men. The kind that can be overpowered by the typical marine/

                                                          On the other hand beast pirates have Zoan fruits which are canonically the physically stronget and durable group of people. So one weak beast pirate is probably worth 500 normal men.

                                                          Also your math checks out with Kaidou being worth 2 people.

                                                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                          @S.C.:

                                                          Can I just chime in on the discussion about Kaido's crew that I hate how their ranks are named after show biz terms?

                                                          Yeah it seems incongruent with the overall theme of the crew.

                                                          Speaking of which. Now that the strawhats are officially a Yonkou crew what do you guys think their divisions would be named after ? Would the name Monster Trio be the strawhat equivalent of Calamities/Sweet Commanders/Division Commanders/ Admirals.

                                                          HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?

                                                          ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

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                                                          • Jabra
                                                            Jabra @kevo_koma
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                                                            […] I hate how their ranks are named after show biz terms

                                                            @kevo_koma:

                                                            Yeah it seems incongruent with the overall theme of the crew.
                                                            .

                                                            It's super congruent in Oda's mind.

                                                            !
                                                            !

                                                            Think of the Beast Pirates as a pompous zoo. Where you have the monkeys and birds as the Headliners, the elephants & polar bears as the All Stars - and then maybe a white lion, the King of Beasts, as the ultra rare main attraction of the show / exhibit.

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                                                            • NateRich
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                                                              Is the consensus that Kawamatsu is at the very least without arms? We got the punishments reiterated in this chapter plus it was explicitly stated that he spit out the fishbone earlier in the arc. Not sure what he'll be able to accomplish but color me intrigued.

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                                                              • Nectar
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                                                                Big guy. Mustache. Dancer. Holy crap!


                                                                Heavy D dancing at the 2:43 mark sealed the deal.

                                                                NNID: jervinnectar

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                                                                  BattleFranky69 @Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                                  @Kaido:

                                                                  So I was doing a bit of math. Law said on Punk Hazard that Kaido had around 500 SMILE users. We know from Zou Sanji is worth 1000 men and Zoro 2000, and Kin'emon stated that Ashura Doji, Kawamatsu, and Denjiro are each worth 100 men in battle. Since Luffy is Zoro and Sanji's captain, let's project him to be worth 3000 men, and Jinbe will also be worth 1000. Shinobu estimated they'd recruit 500 samurai without Hyogoro, but since he's teamed up with Luffy and will obviously come into play let's assume they quintuple their recruits to 2500, since Hyogoro ruled over 5 village bosses. The Straw Hat Grand Fleet has 5640 members. Let's estimate the military forces of the Mink Tribe to be around 50 members, and since they're obviously gonna fight on a night of a full moon and thus activate Sulong, let's estimate their military strength as 2500 people. Then, of course, there's the amnesiac Big Mom. Let's say a typical giant is worth 500 men in battle. Big Mom killed a giant at the age of 5. She's around 13 times as old as she was then, making her roughly worth 6500 men in battle.

                                                                  Aside from the SMILE users, you have the Pleasures, who basically don't count as fighters, Drake and Hawkins crews, Headliners with real fruits like Page One, the three Calamities, and Kaido. Kaido's gonna need a lot to bring him down, but his intro only stated "If it's 1-on-1, Kaido will win", thus not eliminating the possibility that Kaido could lose in a 2 v 1 fight. So let's lowball him as being worth 2 people in battle. On the Wano natives' side, let's say there are only 500 samurai left on Orochi's side, there can't be that many people who live on Wano can there?

                                                                  Thus, the final battle on Onigashima will pit the rough equivalent of 25,000 alliance members vs. 1100 Beasts Pirates. Gonna be an absolute snoozefest. NPMS Alliance too OP, Oda, pls nerf.

                                                                  That really makes me wish Douriki had been more of a significant thing than a one-off, almost useless measure that ultimately wasn't worth bringing up. It grossly downplayed the gap between Sanji and Zoro's strengths by making their opponents only 20 points apart but if done correctly it could be worth a hell of a lot more. If only certain people in the One Piece world had the ability to calculate it, say, then it could have been more useful without being overused and kept around longer but all we have is speculation and these weird abstract numbers.

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                                                                  • wolfwood
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                                                                    Douriki was, in my estimation, quite possibly one of the worst ideas Oda ever put to page. But i did enjoy how it dicked over all Sauron wanking by making Roof's guy literally twice as great as S and Z's guys. Y'know what now that i think about it the funny part outweighs the stupidity of the power level number thingamajig.

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                                                                      TommyDunns @wolfwood
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                                                                      @wolfwood:

                                                                      Douriki was, in my estimation, quite possibly one of the worst ideas Oda ever put to page. But i did enjoy how it dicked over all Sauron wanking by making Roof's guy literally twice as great as S and Z's guys. Y'know what now that i think about it the funny part outweighs the stupidity of the power level number thingamajig.

                                                                      Agreed. As funny as it is looking back now imagine if it stuck and we still used it today. Geez. We already have our power level analysts knee deep in Bounty = everything we need to know about a character's status. If they had another number to quantify strength it would make the discussion about the topic unbearable. (which it is slowly approaching with new, higher bounties keep popping up.)

                                                                      I think it goes to show how absurd it is to implement because even in Dragonball it became useless after Freiza or whatever. The inflation would be nuts.

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                                                                        uniaka ikuzakas @BattleFranky69
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                                                                        @BattleFranky69:

                                                                        That really makes me wish Douriki had been more of a significant thing than a one-off, almost useless measure that ultimately wasn't worth bringing up. It grossly downplayed the gap between Sanji and Zoro's strengths by making their opponents only 20 points apart but if done correctly it could be worth a hell of a lot more. If only certain people in the One Piece world had the ability to calculate it, say, then it could have been more useful without being overused and kept around longer but all we have is speculation and these weird abstract numbers.

                                                                        That just proofs that there is no gap between them in strength in Oda's mind, only fans assumed zoro is equal to luffy and stronger then sanji.

                                                                        Only post ts you could say there was some gap but with the raid suit there is no gap anymore.

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                                                                          BattleFranky69 @uniaka ikuzakas
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                                                                          @wolfwood:

                                                                          Douriki was, in my estimation, quite possibly one of the worst ideas Oda ever put to page. But i did enjoy how it dicked over all Sauron wanking by making Roof's guy literally twice as great as S and Z's guys. Y'know what now that i think about it the funny part outweighs the stupidity of the power level number thingamajig.

                                                                          I have no idea what you were saying for half of that but I agree about Lucchi being twice what Kaku and Jyabura were at was probably more absurd than the fact that Zoro had enough brute strength to break through Kaku's Tekkai while Sanji had to use an elemental move to bypass it on Jyabura.

                                                                          @TommyDunns:

                                                                          Agreed. As funny as it is looking back now imagine if it stuck and we still used it today. Geez. We already have our power level analysts knee deep in Bounty = everything we need to know about a character's status. If they had another number to quantify strength it would make the discussion about the topic unbearable. (which it is slowly approaching with new, higher bounties keep popping up.)

                                                                          I think it goes to show how absurd it is to implement because even in Dragonball it became useless after Freiza or whatever. The inflation would be nuts.

                                                                          I know, that's why I suggested it be some kind of rare talent (like as rare as Haoshoku Haki) for someone in the OP world to identify someone's current Douriki, just to get a measure of comparison between, say, two specific individuals or to gauge how much someone has improved between one arc and another.

                                                                          But yeah, once you got into the millions of power level points in Dragonball Z it really stopped mattering. Luckily One Piece feels more grounded. I think we'd be lucky to see anyone break 100K to be honest.

                                                                          @uniaka:

                                                                          That just proofs that there is no gap between them in strength in Oda's mind, only fans assumed zoro is equal to luffy and stronger then sanji.

                                                                          Only post ts you could say there was some gap but with the raid suit there is no gap anymore.

                                                                          In Oda's mind maybe but his subconscious should tell his conscious mind that there's no way in hell that's true for the reason I stated above. And much as I would love to believe that Sanji's Raid Suit closed the gap between himself and Zoro in pure strength terms, that's a baseless statement. In point of fact we could conclude that the time skip worsened the gap between them and we've yet to see any resolution to that in a definitive sense. Oda had a perfectly elegant opportunity to do so by unlocking Sanji's dormant Vinsmoke power but elected not to. I see that as a sign that Oda doesn't care to even the odds between the second and third strongest. My main thing is, given how Oda put both Sanji and Jimbei up against Wadatsumi, is he trying to say that we should view Jimbei on an even footing with Sanji or what? Because I don't believe that's the case given how well he stood up against Big Mom and frankly I'm more interested in how his strength stacks up with Zoro's since that seems to be where the real mystery lies (then we'd know for sure who's truly second to Luffy).

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                                                                            Razh @BattleFranky69
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                                                                            @BattleFranky69:

                                                                            That really makes me wish Douriki had been more of a significant thing than a one-off, almost useless measure that ultimately wasn't worth bringing up. It grossly downplayed the gap between Sanji and Zoro's strengths by making their opponents only 20 points apart but if done correctly it could be worth a hell of a lot more. If only certain people in the One Piece world had the ability to calculate it, say, then it could have been more useful without being overused and kept around longer but all we have is speculation and these weird abstract numbers.

                                                                            Not if you remember that Jabura mentioned Douriki only measures someone physical capabilities, not taking into account devil fruit powers.

                                                                            Think we can all agree Kaku's display was a lot more impressive than Jabura's.

                                                                            Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                            Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                            It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                              Jabra @Razh
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                                                                              @Razh:

                                                                              Think we can all agree Kaku's display was a lot more ridiculous than Jabura's.

                                                                              Fixed .

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                                                                              • Razh
                                                                                Razh @uniaka ikuzakas
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                                                                                @uniaka:

                                                                                That just proofs that there is no gap between them in strength in Oda's mind, only fans assumed zoro is equal to luffy and stronger then sanji.

                                                                                Only post ts you could say there was some gap but with the raid suit there is no gap anymore.

                                                                                That's just wrong, like I mentioned.

                                                                                Last time Zoro and Sanji seemed equal was when they went dinosaur hunting on Little Garden. Since then Zoro's opponents and feats in battle were always more impressive. Even more so since TS, damn. Not even funny!

                                                                                Really doubt raid suit will bring Sanji to the same level. Even if Oda had a real interest in making Sanji one of the main heavy hitters again. You know, I keep thinking maybe Oda has plans with him and shit, but every Sanji's new fight seems like a half baked awkward pandering to the fans. One hitting chumps, having unfinished skirmishes before going all out, having his fights cut off… Really don't know what to make of it.

                                                                                --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                @Jabra:

                                                                                Fixed .

                                                                                Those terms are practically synonyms in OP, anyway.

                                                                                Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                                                Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                                                It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                                                • RomanceDawn
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                                                                                  @Kaido:

                                                                                  So I was doing a bit of math. Law said on Punk Hazard that Kaido had around 500 SMILE users. We know from Zou Sanji is worth 1000 men and Zoro 2000, and Kin'emon stated that Ashura Doji, Kawamatsu, and Denjiro are each worth 100 men in battle. Since Luffy is Zoro and Sanji's captain, let's project him to be worth 3000 men, and Jinbe will also be worth 1000. Shinobu estimated they'd recruit 500 samurai without Hyogoro, but since he's teamed up with Luffy and will obviously come into play let's assume they quintuple their recruits to 2500, since Hyogoro ruled over 5 village bosses. The Straw Hat Grand Fleet has 5640 members. Let's estimate the military forces of the Mink Tribe to be around 50 members, and since they're obviously gonna fight on a night of a full moon and thus activate Sulong, let's estimate their military strength as 2500 people. Then, of course, there's the amnesiac Big Mom. Let's say a typical giant is worth 500 men in battle. Big Mom killed a giant at the age of 5. She's around 13 times as old as she was then, making her roughly worth 6500 men in battle.

                                                                                  Aside from the SMILE users, you have the Pleasures, who basically don't count as fighters, Drake and Hawkins crews, Headliners with real fruits like Page One, the three Calamities, and Kaido. Kaido's gonna need a lot to bring him down, but his intro only stated "If it's 1-on-1, Kaido will win", thus not eliminating the possibility that Kaido could lose in a 2 v 1 fight. So let's lowball him as being worth 2 people in battle. On the Wano natives' side, let's say there are only 500 samurai left on Orochi's side, there can't be that many people who live on Wano can there?

                                                                                  Thus, the final battle on Onigashima will pit the rough equivalent of 25,000 alliance members vs. 1100 Beasts Pirates. Gonna be an absolute snoozefest. NPMS Alliance too OP, Oda, pls nerf.

                                                                                  Hahaha, that was a hilarious read.

                                                                                  @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                  I have no idea what you were saying for half of that but I agree about Lucchi being twice what Kaku and Jyabura were at was probably more absurd than the fact that Zoro had enough brute strength to break through Kaku's Tekkai while Sanji had to use an elemental move to bypass it on Jyabura.

                                                                                  Didn't Zoro use Lion's Song or something to break Kaku's Iron Body? Or at least attempt to? You know that move Zoro uses to cut steel, the one that only came about when he realized it was about technique and not brute force?

                                                                                  Do you also realize that Jyabra was the only member of CP9 who could use Iron Body while in motion so just about the entire fight he was using it and Sanji's kicks were hurting him throughout? Of course this is One Piece so a brand new move was the finisher, not particularly necessary for him or Zoro, just a flashy way to end.

                                                                                  Doruki lovers need a one way ticket to Oro Jackson.

                                                                                  Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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                                                                                    just complementing some thoughts here, Douriki did measured someone physical capabilities only, but that means EVERY physical capabilities not just "pure strength", and we all know that the usual strats about zoro and sanji in terms of "physical capabilities is that zoro is stronger and more durable while sanji is faster, if we compare it to Jyabura and Kaku to make an argument about Oda evaluating sanji and zoro's overall "physical capabilities" through them, the fact that their douriki was somehow balanced makes sense

                                                                                    and Lucci was overrall physically superior compared to Jyabura and kaku tbh…

                                                                                    @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                    I have no idea what you were saying for half of that but I agree about Lucchi being twice what Kaku and Jyabura were at was probably more absurd than the fact that Zoro had enough brute strength to break through Kaku's Tekkai while Sanji had to use an elemental move to bypass it on Jyabura.

                                                                                    Sanji was able to do some damage but his struggle was mostly because Jyabura was a tekkai specialist, he was the only one that could move while using tekkai, or at least… the only that was shown doing it, but anyway... we are comparing slashes with kicks... so... them being elemental moves are fair :ninja:

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                                                                                      Ahh the return of the age long debate, how close are Zoro and Sanji in terms of strength, we've been debating this for decades…. literally

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                                                                                      • Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                                                        Zoro got struck by nails from a Headliner who isn't in the Tobi Roppo

                                                                                        Sanji got attacked by a Tobi Roppo but wasn't injured

                                                                                        Sanji > Zoro, clearly.

                                                                                        Spoiler:

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                                                                                        • Long John Silvers Rayleigh
                                                                                          Long John Silvers Rayleigh @Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                                                          @Kaido:

                                                                                          Zoro got struck by nails from a Headliner who isn't in the Tobi Roppo

                                                                                          Sanji got attacked by a Tobi Roppo but wasn't injured

                                                                                          Sanji > Zoro, clearly.

                                                                                          Minatomo could probably defeat Zoro

                                                                                          Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:

                                                                                          So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?

                                                                                          H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler

                                                                                          Spoiler:

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                                                                                          • Shiebs
                                                                                            Shiebs @Long John Silvers Rayleigh
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                                                                                            I can't wait for when both Sanji and Zoro to beat Queen and King (respectively) and people start using that for there power level discussions about how Sanji will never be on Zoro's level

                                                                                            EDIT: I realize I just did the thing I was making fun of literately two seconds ago, but I felt so bad for Sanji, not enough people stick up for that guy

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                                                                                              @Kaido:

                                                                                              Zoro got struck by nails from a Headliner who isn't in the Tobi Roppo

                                                                                              Sanji got attacked by a Tobi Roppo but wasn't injured

                                                                                              Sanji > Zoro, clearly.

                                                                                              Yep, that settles that.

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                                                                                              • Watch-man
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                                                                                                We will have chapter 936 this week?

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                                                                                                  uniaka ikuzakas @Razh
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                                                                                                  @Razh:

                                                                                                  Last time Zoro and Sanji seemed equal was when they went dinosaur hunting on Little Garden. Since then Zoro's opponents and feats in battle were always more impressive. Even more so since TS, damn. Not even funny!

                                                                                                  Really doubt raid suit will bring Sanji to the same level. Even if Oda had a real interest in making Sanji one of the main heavy hitters again. You know, I keep thinking maybe Oda has plans with him and shit, but every Sanji's new fight seems like a half baked awkward pandering to the fans. One hitting chumps, having unfinished skirmishes before going all out, having his fights cut off… Really don't know what to make of it.

                                                                                                  Sanji was all out with doflamingo and vergo. I took that as oda suggesting that sanji needs power up, something he didn't get in the time skip, since he didn't get proper mentor like zoro and luffy, as in the raid suit. He got ivankov that not only he is not top tier, but he is okama so sanji doesn't want to learn from him and was stuck self training in the time skip. As for his fight with pageone is more about saving the full power of raid suit for the final of this arc, maybe even saving page1 for someoen else in the final and not show him defeated.

                                                                                                  There was the option to give sanji someone like Zeff 2.0 in the time skip as mentor, but there doesn't seem to be top tier cook in the world. Streusen and ivankov are like the strongest cooks we know in NW, as in far from mihawk, unless I forgot someone.

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                                                                                                  • wolfwood
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                                                                                                    @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                                    I have no idea what you were saying for half of that

                                                                                                    Yes it can be difficult to parse the terminology of AP. Fan wanking is the age old habit of declaring that Mihawk is tots teh coolest and he could beat up Whitebread or Shanks or whoever. It's essentially the forum version of my dad is stronger than your dad. And being dicked over in this scenario refers to how Oda just kicked the stool out from under the feet of a proud group of Sauron wankers who had perfected the art of explaining why swords beat rubber and sandals by explicitly putting a number on how much greater Luffy Luffyington is than both S and Z.

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                                                                                                    • Roronoa Zacho
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                                                                                                      Douriki, how cute!
                                                                                                      We now have cavendish as an indicator for fight power.
                                                                                                      Queen is like ~7 Cavendishs, which makes about 3.5 Hakubas?
                                                                                                      Or was it 7 Hakubas and 14 Cavendishs?
                                                                                                      Either way, one cavendish is a half Hakuba. And one of them is either 100mio or 200mio bounty of sheer fight power iirc.

                                                                                                      There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                                                                                      But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                                                                                                      • wolfwood
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                                                                                                        My bullshit number is better than your bullshit number

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