Anyone saw the ninja in the panel below the one that has Luffy punching Kaido to the ground?
Chapter 923: Emperor Kaidou VS Luffy
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One thing strikes me as odd, in retrospect.
That the fact Kaido can turn into a dragon wasn't important enough to mention in Kanjuro's backstory. Seems like a pretty important detail, something that shouldn't be treated as a footnote. I can't see how it would be possible for Kaido to never have turned into a dragon in entire Oden's flashback, but that remains to be seen. You'd really think it would be one of the main parts Kanjuro would mention, considering the hate he has shown towards dragons before and considering they are planning to defeat that big ass dragon.
Just a nitpick.:happy:
It might have been important for the characters' plans to mention Kaido's DF power but there's also the issue of narrative flow. Kaido suddenly appearing in the present as a dragon and sniping Oden Castle wouldn't have been nearly as impactful if we had already knew about the ability. Plus if it had been mentioned in the flashback, you might have complained about the flashback being overloaded with details
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@Builds:
Starting near the end of that fight as a search reference, when exactly was this? I searched for the moment that I linked so that I could read from then to the arrival at Dressrossa and never once bore witness to Zoro getting uncharacteristically pissy -quite the doubtful psudo-quote.
Also, a spiked club has spikes; Luffy was poked with spikes just like Don Krieg's cape.
I think it was in chapter 678. Zoro told Luffy "This is the New World!"
I accept Jesus Burgess as my Lord and Savior
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When Roger entrusted Garp with Ace, Roger said that him and Garp almost killed each other many times.
Yea to me that doesn't mean they were equals, just that they've got a history. I figure at some point in the future Luffy will be able to say the same to Smoker. In my opinion Shiki getting the Draw in the Battle of Ed War is closer than this.
=D We should have a new poll for who we think will appear in Wano. For instance, I don't see Big Mom happening in Wano, but I do see a possibility for Weevil. And a big possibility for BlackBeard. As well as Moriah and the usuals -
well katakuri damaged himself
He damaged himself equally to what Luffy took. If anything Luffy took the bigger spear hit and was more damaged due to the spinning thrust. So please.
People act as if Katakuri thought he was too strong so he even'ed himself to Luffy by damaging himself.
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Don't forget about his effort, strenght and convinction.
Anyway, if you want to see it as luck and plot armor, it's fine. The important thing is that you know that and you're not starting to have double standards after the time skip. Just know what you're reading.
Well my opinion is that character evolution are extremely limited in One Piece. As such, Luffy's behaviour this chapter is very similar to his behaviour since the begining of the serie. That's why I'm not really disappointed by this chapter countrary to those who thinks Luffy has regressed. Because in order to regress, one needs progress in the first place.
As for cockyness vs conviction, the limit is very thin. It only depends if you want to see it in a positive or negative way. Since I don't particular like the selfish, deaf to other side of Luffy character, I'm using the negative side. But I know a lot of people like Luffy for this reason and it is probably Oda's case
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Honestly, nobody in the OP universe should need to be told what the yonko's powers are. This should be common knowledge for everyone.
I could maybe buy Big Mom's and Kaido's abilities not being known widely, since they've been enclosed in their own lands, not getting into bigger conflicts for a long time. Even so, there are spies and rumors. And Kaido has a habit of going around random places to test himself, drunk or not. There's a huge possibility he was going to crash Marineford as a dragon.
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I could maybe buy Big Mom's and Kaido's abilities not being known widely, since they've been enclosed in their own lands, not getting into bigger conflicts for a long time. Even so, there are spies and rumors. And Kaido has a habit of going around random places to test himself, drunk or not. There's a huge possibility he was going to crash Marineford as a dragon.
Probably even Law knews the rumors about Kaidou beign a dragon before he started all the alliance thing and plan to overthrow Kaidou, but he wasn't convinced himself and probably treated it as a rumor or at least underestimating the magnitude of the information.
Also, this could be one of Kaidou Calamities since he has shown interest in cyborgs (Scotch or whatever his name is) :
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/onepiece/images/0/09/Vegapunk%27s_Research.png/revision/latest?cb=20130224125326 -
@Kaido:
It might have been important for the characters' plans to mention Kaido's DF power but there's also the issue of narrative flow. Kaido suddenly appearing in the present as a dragon and sniping Oden Castle wouldn't have been nearly as impactful if we had already knew about the ability. Plus if it had been mentioned in the flashback, you might have complained about the flashback being overloaded with details
You're going by the premise that the Kaido just had to appear in this fashion, just when Kanjuro has finished his presentation. And I'm just saying it could have or should have been done differently. Have Kanjuro just about to say that tiny detail about Kaido when they hear a roar or something, and they rush out to see him as a dragon. Or change the order of things and have Luffy find out Oden's backstory through different means maybe.
And let's not forget that Zoro likely knows, or at least should know about Kaido. SH don't really seem to talk much to eachother. "Hey Luffy, Kaido is a dragon." Didn't came up? Fuck that.
Of course, if Zoro doesn't know either, well dammit. What are these guys even doing on Wano?
And you know better than that. We're not talking about HxH here. If anything, I'd LOVE to get more details from time to time. Almost every flashback Oda makes gives 2 new questions for each question answered. I'd rather have details than narrative inconsistencies. Things are awkwardly omitted from both characters and readers for the sake of effective cliffhangers.
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@uniaka:
Anyway, if luffy is really KO, then jimbe did better with BM. Even Chopper blocked her attack, yet luffy 1 hit ko? If yonkous are balanced, then jimbe> luffy. She was in her tantrum, but kaidou is also drunk.
No it just shows how poor Oda portrayal of Big Mom was.
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Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas
Anyway, if luffy is really KO, then jimbe did better with BM. Even Chopper blocked her attack, yet luffy 1 hit ko? If yonkous are balanced, then jimbe> luffy. She was in her tantrum, but kaidou is also drunk.No it just shows how poor Oda portrayal of Big Mom was.
Com on man, Luffy always gets kicked around before the serious fight. He got ass whooped by Croco, Luci, Magellan, Caesar and many more in the first clashes before he took things seriously and commited to the fight. On the other hand Jimbe is the most serious guy ever and he fights in a standard fashion. Why are we still comparing pears to apples.
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I could maybe buy Big Mom's and Kaido's abilities not being known widely, since they've been enclosed in their own lands, not getting into bigger conflicts for a long time. Even so, there are spies and rumors. And Kaido has a habit of going around random places to test himself, drunk or not. There's a huge possibility he was going to crash Marineford as a dragon.
This reminds me that a known spy for the WG, Stussy, was regularly invited to tea parties in which the food and cutlery were alive and sang. There was no way the Marines could not have a suspicion of Big Mom's powers.
And we should also remember that Kaidou not only fought the Marines but was imprisioned by them. Which, as you said, implied very strongly that the emperor's abilities should be known to the WG -
Com on man, Luffy always gets kicked around before the serious fight. He got ass whooped by Croco, Luci, Magellan, Caesar and many more in the first clashes before he took things seriously and commited to the fight. On the other hand Jimbe is the most serious guy ever and he fights in a standard fashion. Why are we still comparing pears to apples.
So your saying Luffy wasn't completely serious against Kaido? Besides there's no way a other top tier would get treated like BM did on Sunny.
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This reminds me that a known spy for the WG, Stussy, was regularly invited to tea parties in which the food and cutlery were alive and sang. There was no way the Marines could not have a suspicion of Big Mom's powers.
And we should also remember that Kaidou not only fought the Marines but was imprisioned by them. Which, as you said, implied very strongly that the emperor's abilities should be known to the WGYeah, they could have even deducted the actual devil fruit she has if there were any records of previous users.
Of course, I could also see WG keeping such knowledge under wraps for their own purposes.
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@uniaka:
Anyway, if luffy is really KO, then jimbe did better with BM. Even Chopper blocked her attack, yet luffy 1 hit ko? If yonkous are balanced, then jimbe> luffy. She was in her tantrum, but kaidou is also drunk.
With Jimbei, its really hard to tell. Oda did a lot to keep BM in check power-wise since she was looking for her cake. Luffy did hit BM with Kong Gun at the party but she used Haki against it while Big Mom was mindless when she went after the crew and didnt really defend at all yet she still wasnt hurt.
With Chopper, he didnt block anything significant lol. The scene I recall showed Big Mom about to put her hand down on Nami looking for the cake. That was it. Like trying to squash a bug.
Overall, Big Mom's strength is very hard to gauge with what was shown. Luffy against Jimbei however, I feel like Jimbei is slightly stronger since Jimbei has yet to really been shown to use much of his abilities other than his Fishman karate. Obviously Jimbei knows Haki but he only used it once to defend from Big Mom and that was it. Luffy on the other hand has been pushed to use G4 Boundman as well as Snakeman and exhausting himself from being pushed to use those abilities.
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@•Ace•:
With Jimbei, its really hard to tell. Oda did a lot to keep BM in check power-wise since she was looking for her cake. Luffy did hit BM with Kong Gun at the party but she used Haki against it while Big Mom was mindless when she went after the crew and didnt really defend at all yet she still wasnt hurt.
With Chopper, he didnt block anything significant lol. The scene I recall showed Big Mom about to put her hand down on Nami looking for the cake. That was it. Like trying to squash a bug.
Overall, Big Mom's strength is very hard to gauge with what was shown. Luffy against Jimbei however, I feel like Jimbei is slightly stronger since Jimbei has yet to really been shown to use much of his abilities other than his Fishman karate. Obviously Jimbei knows Haki but he only used it once to defend from Big Mom and that was it. Luffy on the other hand has been pushed to use G4 Boundman as well as Snakeman and exhausting himself from being pushed to use those abilities.
No way Jinbei stronger than Doflamingo let alon Luffy.
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So your saying Luffy wasn't completely serious against Kaido? Besides there's no way a other top tier would get treated like BM did on Sunny.
He was extremely angered by what Kaidou did and he lashed out with force alone. If he were to use his new CoO maybe he could've dodged that attack, but that means he has to be composed and undistracted by emotions or anything -> hence taking the fight seriously.
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No way Jinbei stronger than Doflamingo let alon Luffy.
I wouldnt say that at all. With what little Jimbei has shown, he's definitely at least equal to Luffy. In FI, Jimbei questioned the result of Luffy's training when they attacked each other. Luffy used Jet Stamp that Jimbei blocked without Haki while Jimbei used a normal Fishman karate punch that probably equates to Luffy's normal Pistol Punch. Jimbei didnt even make contact with that punch to affect Luffy.
Adding unknowns such as Jimbei's Haki would put Jimbei above Luffy.
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@•Ace•:
I wouldnt say that at all. With what little Jimbei has shown, he's definitely at least equal to Luffy. In FI, Jimbei questioned the result of Luffy's training when they attacked each other. Luffy used Jet Stamp that Jimbei blocked without Haki while Jimbei used a normal Fishman karate punch that probably equates to Luffy's normal Pistol Punch.
Adding unknowns such as Jimbei's Haki would put Jimbei above Luffy.
No just no Jinbie is not at the level of Yonko FM.
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No just no Jinbie is not at the level of Yonko FM.
I never said he was the level of Yonkou. He is at least as strong as Luffy with what he has shown and more with the unknown abilities he hasnt shown such as Haki which he only used against Big Mom.
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He was extremely angered by what Kaidou did and he lashed out with force alone. If he were to use his new CoO maybe he could've dodged that attack, but that means he has to be composed and undistracted by emotions or anything -> hence taking the fight seriously.
That's when Luffy at his best and yet it didn't even effect Kaido.
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Besides there's no way a other top tier would get treated like BM did on Sunny.
Oh please, there was nothing wrong with that. Aside from her state of mind, the previous chapters set up how half of the crew had specific counters for her (Nami being able to manipulate Zeus/lightning in general, Brook being able to hurt Homies), while Jinbe's best technique is something that can't be blocked normally, and was been used on Wadatsumi, who is far bigger than Big Mom. And even then it didn't hurt her.
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Com on man, Luffy always gets kicked around before the serious fight. He got ass whooped by Croco, Luci, Magellan, Caesar and many more in the first clashes before he took things seriously and commited to the fight. On the other hand Jimbe is the most serious guy ever and he fights in a standard fashion. Why are we still comparing pears to apples.
Luffy was definitely serious here. He was pretty level headed than normal as well. Like as soon as Luffy brought Kaido to the ground, Luffy ran towards the mountain again. Finding out about Tama agitated him even more but he didnt act right away like usual. He showed anger and regret and gave an argument to Law as to why he wasnt running away and thus brought Kaidou's attention to himself rather than the others. Luffy went straight to using a move he hasnt used since he tried to destroy a ship about half the size of a small island and then went straight into Boundman to continue his assault. He looked fatigued by the time he was done with his assault and got clubbed afterwards.
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No it just shows how poor Oda portrayal of Big Mom was.
You do know all Jinbe did was push Big Mom out of the deck do you?
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Has anyone thought about the connection between Momonosuke's DF and Kaidou's DF ?
What if at some point after beign captured and escaping, Kaidou was sent to Punk Hazard and used as a labrat for Vegapunk to try and experiment his Lineage Factor and artificial DF - thus creating the so called "failure", Momonosuke's DF.
At some point, BM intruded into the lab and managed to rescue Kaidou and also met Caesar Clown with whom she kept in touch with for the later giantification experiment.
I presume someone already posted this but was wondering if there are any other connections
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You do know all Jinbe did was push Big Mom out of the deck do you?
We do not mention the P word around here.
The shame is far too great.
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Besides there's no way a other top tier would get treated like BM did on Sunny.
You mean to say that no other top tier would be written with such confidence by Oda with clever and interesting solutions? Oh yes, I agree, that chapter is too good compared to the overall portrayal of top tiers in One Piece.
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You do know all Jinbe did was push Big Mom out of the deck do you?
Doubt Chopper would ever block Kaido.
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Would it be that weird that Kaido is simply physically a greater threat than Big Mom? He's the one called the stongest thing on the seas, unbeatable one on one etc.
Still doesn't have to mean she couldn't match up with him, thanks to her ability.
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@Joy:
Doubt Chopper would ever block Kaido.
After seeing drunk as a skunk Kaido get clonked on the head i'm not gonna say any variation of X type of thing would never happen to Kaido. I expect all kinds of embarressing events to happen to his moody drunk ass. Which is great, he feels more like a Blackbeard kind of guy who fucks up alot than a Whitebstache always in control kind of guy
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After seeing drunk as a skunk Kaido get clonked on the head i'm not gonna say any variation of X type of thing would never happen to Kaido. I expect all kinds of embarressing events to happen to his moody drunk ass. Which is great, he feels more like a Blackbeard kind of guy who fucks up alot than a Whitebstache always in control kind of guy
Yeah he got clonked on the head by Luffy multiple times without a scratch. Then he freaking sighs and he one shots Luffy. Big Mom did what ? Honestly chapter 890 is one of the worst in the series. Big Mom got clowned hard.
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You do know all Jinbe did was push Big Mom out of the deck do you?
Brook speed blitzed her and Chooper tanked a attack. It was a poor showing around for a Yonko. All thing impressive from Big Mom that arc was easily block gear 4 Luffy and her scream.
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@Joy:
Yeah he got clonked on the head by Luffy multiple times without a scratch. Then he freaking sighs and he one shots Luffy. Big Mom did what ? Honestly chapter 890 is one of the worst in the series. Big Mom got clowned hard.
That's when you became Big Meme xd.
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Brook speed blitzed her and Chooper tanked a attack.
Your point? Are Brook and Chopper not allowed to do this much? Brook that can move his sword so fast no one can notice it? And Chopper that has a form suitable only to tank attacks?
Remember we are talking about the main cast here. Don't expect only half of the crew be useful. There is no evidence that Brook could speed blitz Kaido, but he certainly wouldn't do much damage. Heck, Brook didn't even tried to attack Big Mom back there.
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Man, Big Mom didn't have nearly anything as impressive as Kaido, it's almost like none of the main characters were allowed to take her on in a full fight.
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@Kaido:
Man, Big Mom didn't have nearly anything as impressive as Kaido, it's almost like none of the main characters were allowed to take her on in a full fight.
That is Oda trying to save the best for last. BM will show her strength when the SH's will go after BM Pirates.
Luffy vs Katakuri Full fight: https://www.docdroid.net/qrFOY9p/luffyxkata.pdf
Luffy vs Cracker Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/Pk06JZL/luffy-vs-cracker.pdf
Luffy vs Doflamingo Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/VDl3Ctf/luffyxdoffy.pdf
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That is Oda trying to save the best for last. BM will show her strength when the SH's will go after BM Pirates.
She'll be offpaneled by Blackbeard before she even gets to Wano.
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@Joy:
Yeah he got clonked on the head by Luffy multiple times without a scratch. Then he freaking sighs and he one shots Luffy. Big Mom did what ? Honestly chapter 890 is one of the worst in the series. Big Mom got clowned hard.
Yeah no to me the dragon getting smacked in the head is the least dignified thing to happen to any main villain. The whole scene from set-up to execution is hilarious. But i'm hoping that Blacky will deliver some equally balanced shows of buffoonery and competence.
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Your point? Are Brook and Chopper not allowed to do this much? Brook that can move his sword so fast no one can notice it? And Chopper that has a form suitable only to tank attacks?
Remember we are talking about the main cast here. Don't expect only half of the crew be useful. There is no evidence that Brook could speed blitz Kaido, but he certainly wouldn't do much damage. Heck, Brook didn't even tried to attack Big Mom back there.
To a Yonko no there not. The crew can be helpful in others don't try that crap with me.
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@Medical:
I think it was in chapter 678. Zoro told Luffy "This is the New World!"
He's just telling him to be careful. They were already sailing on entire oceans of kryptonite and now that some super-loons happen to have extra-deadly powers that threaten literally anyone regardless of power level, it's an especially bad time to be calling into question your own loyalty. After all, Zoro is all about keeping death-oaths like it's going out of style, and that includes the one where he and Luffy help each other get their top-spots. He'd sooner throw his favorite sword in the ocean than threaten to ditch his captain over something so frivolous as temporary failure.
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To a Yonko no there not. The crew can be helpful in others don't try that crap with me.
Who said it that what they can or not do to a Yonko? There is a rule book or something?
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@Joy:
Yeah he got clonked on the head by Luffy multiple times without a scratch. Then he freaking sighs and he one shots Luffy. Big Mom did what ? Honestly chapter 890 is one of the worst in the series. Big Mom got clowned hard.
Oda was able to show BM's strength/potential at the cost of giving her some embarassment. From my understanding, BM is never at her best when she is rampaging. Even though the homies affected by BM have a concious, they still need to be told what to do to be useful. Napolean, Prometheus, Zeus, the candy slime, etc showed this. And when Big Mom does guide them, they can be deadly. Napolean as a huge, extendable flaming sword, Zeus for lightning strikes, Prometheus as a giant ball of flame, the candy slime creating a huge wave, etc. And those Ive listed are nothing more than fragments of Big Mom's soul. The homies having consiousness is definitely a double edge sword as Zeus and King Baum showed us. They were used against Big Mom due to the lack of guidance. Another really awesome scene of Big Mom was when she got struck by that huge lightning Nami created with Zeus which left a giant hole on the ground. Big Mom casually starts walking towards the ground and walks right through as if theres nothing there. And last I can recall, the end of the arc as Big Mom is seen heading back to Cacao Island, the thing she rode on was propelling water behind them big enough to swallow most of the ships present and the town. Big Mom certainly showed great potential. Overall, she wasn't really hurt during the whole thing like how Kaido wasnt hurt even though Luffy was pummeling him for a bit.
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Who said it that what they can or not do to a Yonko? There is a rule book or something?
It's also funny that he completely disregarded the fact that Big Mom was in a weakened state when the Strawhats took her on. And yet they haven't even managed to scratch her.
But hey, fuck context. Gotta shit on Big Mom no matter what.
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Shanks is such a wimp. Gets wounded by Blackbeard when he was a mere underling.
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Shanks is such a wimp. Gets wounded by Blackbeard when he was a mere underling.
Kaido also has a huge scar on his front. Someone once used that to suggest he wasn't the strongest after all or something. All we have to go on is the reputation of him being the strongest creature NOW, not how or why he got there or how long it took to become that. But Oda always overdoes it on his flashbacks so I kinda don't want to see it if it means we waste two chapters on something uninteresting.
Did getting whacked like that sober Kaido up or is he just capable of the ogre-clubbing equivalent of one of Brook's rapid attacks even while having dizzy blurred drunk-vision? Also how is anyone even still alive after all his breath-blasting? Did he change back to human form because of Luffy's attack actually hurting him or just because being a huge dragon was even more disorienting while drunk? So confusing.
Hard to imagine why anyone would follow such a lush. I get why some captains are inspirational but two of the Yonkou now are basically only leaders because they're part of that person's family or because…shit if I know. Blackbeard's followers believe in some kind of fate, and Shanks' are his friends. So all of them have some kind of different bent to them having followers. I don't think they all share the wanton lust for destruction he seems to have (except maybe Jack) and the risks of failing him and ending up in a bad way are pretty unpleasant so really, what motivates someone to be a Beast Pirate? I think that's the most enigmatic thing so far. A lust for power that draws a big target on you, even if you belong to that fleet (since clearly lots of people mess with Kaido in spite of the threat he presents)? I mean, none of them are particularly bright so maybe, but then they would have a hard time figuring out how to put clothes on if they're that dumb.
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The whole Shanks story of getting scarred etc. kind of gets wierd when you consider the level of haki now. That is if you actually bother analyzing it beyond it's narrative and emotional merit. I mean the dude lost an entire arm to a creature luffy one shots at the start of the series. Dude must have had buggy level strength back when he got the BB scar
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Let's not exaggerate. It probably took decades for him to begin to approach the great Buggy in power. He was probably something like a measly twelve thatches or so at that time. Unlike now when he's a whopping 0,85 Whitestaches
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Who said it that what they can or not do to a Yonko? There is a rule book or something?
HEY just dont try that crap with him.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I think Big Mom was plenty threatening in her arc. Her """""""defeat"""""" on the StrawHat ship was purely circumstantial which has been pointed out a million times since that chapter. Kaido probably outranks Big Mom, sure, but not by much. Big Mom is the shit (and my personal second favorite yonko after Blackbeard).
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