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    Devils fruits discussion/definition

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    • Phlemingo
      Phlemingo
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      Phlemingo
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      Phlemingo
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      Much theories have been theorized over the 3 classes of devils fruits. I would like to discuss, and possibly be right about my own theories. Paramecia and Logia, for one, have people in great stupor over some seemingly conflicting properties. Zoan… is pretty clear cut though. I'll put forth some of my own definitions.

      Zoan

      "Zoan" might come from "zoological", which means "Of or relating to animals or animal life". Zoan is also an ancient city of Egypt, in the eastern delta of the Nile. How this connects might be because supernatural beings might have been viewed mostly or all (?) in animal form in Egypt. A human getting the power of the devil and being able to change form to a beast would best be attributed to this ancient city? More plausible is Zoanthropy, a medical condition where in a person believes himself to be an animal. (thanks to Ubiq for pointing this out)

      This devils fruit allows the user the ability to change his form into any animal. So far, we have seen mammals and birds. We can't say for sure that people can become reptiles, insects, molluscs and arachnids as of yet.

      The user has 3 forms; human (normal), animal (corresponding power's) and the in between half-half form. With special radiations, new forms that mutate a particular body part may be borne from the regular 3.

      A Zoan user has great ability to increase physical strength if their corresponding animal is physically strong. If in human form he increases at X, his animal form will correspondingly increase in strength. For example, if a bear is 5 times as strong as a human, a human training his muscles to X strength would equate a bear having 5X strength in the same amount of training. Hence, Zoan is the strongest in close range combat.

      Logia

      _Logia is a term applied to collections of sayings credited to Jesus and used as source materials by the Gospel writers in the writing of the familiar canonic narrative gospels. The Greek word "logia" means "oracles, divine responses, utterances, or sayings." The transformation to "elements" might indeed be seen as a divine response.

      The Logia fruits give a user the power to transform to and fro from a matter/non-matter to flesh form. Logia users are invulnerable to physical attacks because when you are Logia, you become another thing altogether, and this other thing is particular/non-matter.

      Logia users have the ability to manipulate their respective elements to a limited extent. Of course, nature has the ultimate power over them. This is seen when Crocodile's conjuring of a sandstorm became to ferocious for him to handle, although he did set it off in the direction of Yuba. This is also seen where Ener rains lightning bolts down accurately on the island, but only with the help of a souped-up thundercloud, which he must manually manipulate.

      What I think is that a Logia will be invulnerable to any attack unless they are unable to switch into their respective element. For example, with water, sand becomes mud, but Crocodile isn't a mud-man, he's a sand-man. He has the power to turn into sand, not mud, hence if he was wet, his powers would cease to exist momentarily, because one cannot be wet sand; it simply does not exist (or if you want to be technical, sand is mud when wet, and does not retain its sandy properties).

      As for Ener, it is the same reasoning. Ener is able to escape whatever is thrown at him simply because the assaulting objects are conductors of electricity, thus he is able to phase through them in electric form. However, when Luffy punches him, he tries to phase through Luffy but fails, because rubber is a non-conductor. Therefore he retains flesh form and gets hit. The same applies for all Logia users.

      To sum up, I believe that Logia users are "weak" to a particular substance or circumstance because either their Logia bits only exist in the form of their Logia bits, with strictly no (or very, very little; enough for the power to overcome and disperse/ignore) variation (for matter Logias such as sand and smoke) or their Logia power simply cannot exist in another substance or circumstance (electricity and fire). Hence when these bits of themselves are confronted with their weakness, they have no choice but to subconsciously snap back to a human body.

      Logias are only invulnerable to attacks and only when their Logia forms aren't presented with a counter. This is because attack or no, as long as it does not upset the Logia powers, no damage will be taken by them. A wet hand striking croc would do as much damage as a stream of water bashing him. The Logias will still retain their properties when getting hit by other attacks, so if an electric current is run through the conductor smoke, smoke bits of a user would not get damaged, but it would conduct possibly to people nearby or part of the DF user that was not in smoke form and do damage._

      Paramecia

      _Paramecium are freshwater ciliate protozoans of the genus Paramecium, usually oval and having an oral groove for feeding. Perhaps Paramecia was named so because the very cellular structure of the user has been altered permanently.

      With a paramecia fruit, it is anything other than being able to transform to and fro from a matter or non-matter and being able to transform to and fro from an animal form. In paramecia, the sky's the limit. I believe I can classify paramecia into 4 main categories. Body alter, environment alter, substance emission and body change.

      Firstly, it is the body alter category. Those that fall under this category include Gomu Gomu, Sube Sube, Supa Supa etc. In each of these, the body becomes rubbery, frictionless and metallic respectively. There is no command over the substance itself, only over the user's body. In my personal opinion, I would say this is the weakest devils fruit, though it can help the user out in a pinch. This is the only kind of fruit that gives the human body new properties aside from Logia, but in this form, the change is permanent.

      Secondly, there is the environment alter category. The only one I can think of is the Doa Doa fruit. It allows the altering of an object's properties when in contact with a user. The Doa Doa fruit seems to be the first of it's kind to me… Their bodies also will still be in human form, it seems.

      Thirdly, there is the substance emission category. Users create an object from their bodies, but their bodies are not that object. Their bodies remain in human form. These include Doru Doru, Hana Hana, Noro Noro and Ori Ori. They create wax, body parts, the Noro photon and cages (of an unknown substance) respectively. Unlike environment alter, they create new substances and do not alter ones present in the environment.

      Finally, the body change category. The users of this category retain their human bodies but are able to rearrange their cells to form a higher density or just a new form for themselves. However, all the while, they still are flesh and blood. Examples are Toge Toge and Kilo Kilo. The first one creates spikes and the second one increases weight. They are still in human form when their powers are in activation. Unlike Supa Supa where the user is steel, these are still flesh and blood although in different shapes and densities._

      Seastone and the Sea

      _Seastone is a stone that emits invisible waves that weaken DF users. For Paramecia users, they become unable to do the respective of their class, ie emit substances, alter the environment or alter their bodies at will. Those that have been permanently changed remain changed, but as all others, their muscles also become extremely weak. Logias revert back to human form, but for Zoan, they suffer in the current form their body is in. Touching a seastone temporarily weakens DF users, but in minute quantities, their powers are merely arrested, and they have their normal strength still.

      As for the sea, it appears that DF users are unaffected by splashes of water. It also appears that they will be unable to swim in water where seastone subtances are present. They must be almost totally immersed in a body of water for the same effect that seastone gives to take place. They become extremely weak but still have limited movement, but very far from enough for propulsion._

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      • Daz
        Daz
        Warlord Mod
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        Daz
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        Daz
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        Wow, this ought to be put in the "Devil fruit" section on Arlong Park! I completely agree with your definitions, and your theories on Croc and Enel sound very plausible to me.
        The only subjects left unadressed are the "Are Logia users able to control their element outside of themselves?" debate (as seen in the 387 thread) and the matter of Seastone/Waters effect on df users. It could be put on Wikipedia as "Devil fruits: Explained".

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        • Phlemingo
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          • Phlemingo
            Phlemingo
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            Yeah… I added it in. Oh come on people, respond >< It's such an interesting topic. Sighhh.

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            • V
              Voodzik
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              An interesting point on the naming

              Riding a Rhino is safer so we Ride a Hippo for Adventure!

              ~Bobobobo BO-bobo~

              PS: I am a big fan of kittens:love:

              http://www.engrish.com/detail.php?im…ate=2005-12-25

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              • G
                game2005
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                I'm sure Logia users can control elements outside of them. That definitely isn't luck when Eneru made those lightning bolts drop down everywhere and it never hit his Maxim.

                And by the way, DF users can still activate their powers when submerged in water. One example is when Luffy is stuck in the sea, thanks to Arlong, Genzo is still able to pull his head out onto dry land so he can breathe.

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                • Phlemingo
                  Phlemingo @game2005
                  @game2005 last edited by
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                  @game2005:

                  I'm sure Logia users can control elements outside of them. That definitely isn't luck when Eneru made those lightning bolts drop down everywhere and it never hit his Maxim.

                  And by the way, DF users can still activate their powers when submerged in water. One example is when Luffy is stuck in the sea, thanks to Arlong, Genzo is still able to pull his head out onto dry land so he can breathe.

                  @Phlemingo:

                  Logia users have the ability to manipulate their respective elements to a limited extent. Of course, nature has the ultimate power over them. This is seen when Crocodile's conjuring of a sandstorm became to ferocious for him to handle, although he did set it off in the direction of Yuba. This is also seen where Ener rains lightning bolts down accurately on the island, but only with the help of a souped-up thundercloud, which he must manually manipulate.

                  @Phlemingo:

                  For Paramecia users, they become unable to do the respective of their class, ie emit substances, alter the environment or alter their bodies at will. Those that have been permanently changed remain changed, but as all others, their muscles also become extremely weak. Logias revert back to human form, but for Zoan, they suffer in the current form their body is in.

                  1-2-3-4-5-20 characters

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                  • freedom
                    freedom @Phlemingo
                    @Phlemingo last edited by
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                    Great Post! I like alot of your theories :laugh:

                    The only thing that raised my eyebrow was the part where you talked about fresh water.@Phlemingo:

                    It also appears that they will be unable to swim no matter whether the water is fresh water or sea water, or even cloud "water".

                    Where does it state that being submerged in fresh water weakens a DF user? To my knowledge, I can't think of any reference in the manga when a DF user became submerged in fresh water. IMO, a DF user should have full use of their strength if submerged in fresh water, b/c the mineral that causes the DF uesr to lose strength would be absent.

                    Also, in skypiea, didn't they say that the white white sea retained some properties of the blue sea, and this is why the DF users were unable to move while submerged? or am I just dreaming this?

                    WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

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                    • Ubiq
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                      @Phlemingo:

                      "Zoan" might come from "zoological", which means "Of or relating to animals or animal life".

                      Ah, Zoanthropy is almost certainly the inspiration for this Devil Fruit type as it's a medical condition wherein a person believes himself to be an animal.

                      The user has 3 forms; human (normal), animal (corresponding power's) and the in between half-half form.

                      Strictly speaking, it's base, base-Zoan, Zoan because of the existence of a human fruit and the fact that one Fruit user had a gun as it's original form.

                      Come to think of it, have we ever seen Chopper's true human form? We've seen his true deer form and several of his beastman forms, but I don't think we've seen his regular person form.

                      It also appears that they will be unable to swim no matter whether the water is fresh water or sea water, or even cloud "water".

                      Fresh water has never been proven to effect Devil Fruit users; Luffy was able to almost totally immerse himself in the baths at Alabasta without any apparent side-effect.

                      The clouds that constitute the White Sea contain seastone particles and have the same effect as the Blue Sea itself as a result.

                      Complicating things since 2009.

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                      • Cap'n Carter
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                        Chopper's "human" form is Heavy Point. The Beast-Man form is the little form he's in most of the time.

                        the bigot who thinks being an asshole is actually worth shit

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                        • Ubiq
                          Ubiq @Cap'n Carter
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                          @Cap'n:

                          Chopper's "human" form is Heavy Point. The Beast-Man form is the little form he's in most of the time.

                          Are you sure? He still has fur and his reindeer nose even in that form, which implies that it's still a Base-Zoan mix. Pell, on the other hand, completely turns into a falcon.

                          Complicating things since 2009.

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                          • Oboro Tennosuke
                            Oboro Tennosuke
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                            Well, your points are quite solid, Phlemingo, very well done. There's only one thing I don't agree upon:

                            "To sum up, I believe that Logia users are "weak" to a particular substance or circumstance because either their Logia bits only exist in the form of their Logia bits, with strictly no (or very, very little; enough for the power to overcome and disperse/ignore) variation (for matter Logias such as sand and smoke) or their Logia power simply cannot exist in another substance or circumstance (electricity and fire). Hence when these bits of themselves are confronted with their weakness, they have no choice but to subconsciously snap back to a human body."

                            While this may be true for electricity, I think fire and ice (for example) depend on the user's prowess. Koby with the mera mera might struggle against a rainshower, while someone like Ace might be able to make raindrops evaporate on contact…or even at a certain distance.

                            And what about wind? Does it have some weakness?

                            P.S.: I don't mean to criticize your point of view Phlem, just wants to know what you think about this.

                            He rode back and forth, left and right, like a spider's legs, and ended with a somersault. Truly he was a match for a thousand.

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                            • Ivotas
                              Ivotas @Ubiq
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                              @Ubiq:

                              Are you sure? He still has fur and his reindeer nose even in that form, which implies that it's still a Base-Zoan mix. Pell, on the other hand, completely turns into a falcon.

                              Well there´s none of the 7 forms where Chopper isn´t covered in fur and lacks animal characteristics so one of them has to be the human form. And since Heavy-Point is the only one that lacks the antlers this is the most likely one to be the human form.

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                              • Deicide
                                Deicide @Ivotas
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                                (Yay, I can finally post!)

                                Heavy point is indeed Chopper's human form. Just look back at Drum Arc and you will see Dr. Kureha talking that his human form isn't exactly "human". When he tried to assume human form to approach people, they confused him for a monster and shot him.

                                (oh, yeah, and we get this Link to prove that Heavy Point is Chopper's human form)

                                Also, it must be noticed that all Zoan seem to retain certain features of his natural form in their alternate forms. Pell is a much larger falcon than a common one, for example, and Lasoo (sp?) still retains gun features even in dog form. Plus, Gan Forr's (ou Gon Fouru, can't remember… the knight of the sky) bird retains it's coloration and wings in horse form.

                                Also, about Logia abilities allowing their users to control their element, we all must remember that Crocodile was able to create an hourglass out of the sand of the desert when he first fought Luffy. He did not even need to touch the place where the hourglass formed (remember when he gave Luffy some minutes before he would fight serious?). I believe they do have some control over their elements, though not a very strong control.

                                Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                • Ivotas
                                  Ivotas @Deicide
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                                  Erm, Crocodile didn´t create that hourglass out of sand, he threw it into the sand. If you check all the lines in the last panel of page that except for the one far right in the middle all the other´s are straight lines, which means that the one that isn´t straight is the one that shows the way the hourglass made while it got thrown towards Luffy´s feet.

                                  And btw, the scene where Kureha elaborated that stuff about Human Form was only in the anime. 😉

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                                  • Deicide
                                    Deicide @Ivotas
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                                    @Ivotas:

                                    Erm, Crocodile didn´t create that hourglass out of sand, he threw it into the sand. If you check all the lines in the last panel of page that except for the one far right in the middle all the other´s are straight lines, which means that the one that isn´t straight is the one that shows the way the hourglass made while it got thrown towards Luffy´s feet.

                                    And btw, the scene where Kureha elaborated that stuff about Human Form was only in the anime. 😉

                                    I never ever saw the Anime. I am sure I read Kureha saying that to Nami. Here it is (look at last panel). I originally saw it in the official brazilian translation, so I was sure I had seen this somewhere before. 🙂

                                    About the hourglass, the scene is not clear in the manga. Maybe in the anime it is clear that Crocodile threw the hourglass, but in the manga it is not that clear.

                                    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                    • Ivotas
                                      Ivotas @Deicide
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                                      @Deicide:

                                      I never ever saw the Anime. I am sure I read Kureha saying that to Nami. Here it is (look at last panel). I originally saw it in the official brazilian translation, so I was sure I had seen this somewhere before. 🙂

                                      Ahh, that´s why I didn´t found it. I just searched for the flashback scenes. Because in the anime it was all one sequence if I remember correctly. And since Kureha didn´t tell the flashback story here like in the anime I thought it was gone. Thanks for clearing that up.

                                      About the hourglass, the scene is not clear in the manga. Maybe in the anime it is clear that Crocodile threw the hourglass, but in the manga it is not that clear.

                                      The anime doesn´t have nothing to do with it. Those speed lines in the last panels speak clear language. Or why else do you think only this ones I referred to are the only ones that don´t form a sharp straight line? :mellow:

                                      But to not insist on the speed lines, I´ll use another argument and thats the hourglass itself. The hourglass only contains sand but it isn´t made of it. So how could Crocodile actually control it if it isn´t even his element?

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                                      • Kuniki
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                                        Nice, you did a good job!

                                        It was a nice read.

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                                        • Phlemingo
                                          Phlemingo @freedom
                                          @freedom last edited by
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                                          @freedom:

                                          Also, in skypiea, didn't they say that the white white sea retained some properties of the blue sea, and this is why the DF users were unable to move while submerged? or am I just dreaming this?

                                          Sorry, I was very confused on that bit, but it has been changed now XD

                                          @Oboro:

                                          While this may be true for electricity, I think fire and ice (for example) depend on the user's prowess. Koby with the mera mera might struggle against a rainshower, while someone like Ace might be able to make raindrops evaporate on contact…or even at a certain distance.

                                          I agree with this, though I don't believe Koby is that weak now 😛
                                          It's like your strength imo. Like, Luffy stretches further if he has more force to stretch with, it should apply to all devils fruits in some way, so all DFs increase in power with relation to your own strength. Electricity in One Piece physics wouldn't incinerate rubber at high voltages, we don't know the same for fire and ice. However, I am inclined to think that One Piece physics would apply to fire and ice too, and thus a little of the weakness would be deadly. I don't thikn fire's weakness is water though… Or perhaps, they are all entirely different. Take a look at Croc for example. All in all, I agree, but too early to comment.
                                          @Oboro:

                                          And what about wind? Does it have some weakness?

                                          We haven't even confirmed the existence of a wind fruit. But if it does, I'm sure Oda would come up with something. A vacuum? If all fails seastone?

                                          @Oboro:

                                          P.S.: I don't mean to criticize your point of view Phlem, just wants to know what you think about this.

                                          No problem 🙂

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                                          • kryptonite
                                            kryptonite
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                                            Is the water that surrounds Rain Dinners ocean water? Because Luffy and Smoker drowned in it…

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                                            • myogatheflea
                                              myogatheflea @kryptonite
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                                              @kryptonite:

                                              Is the water that surrounds Rain Dinners ocean water? Because Luffy and Smoker drowned in it…

                                              Well, it did house those giant crocodiles; so it would only be natural that they were swimming in ocean waters. Also, don't forget that the "Straw-Hats" (and Smoker for that matter) all got out of Rain Base and back into the city from the ocean.

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                                              • Sanji
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                                                What Devil Fruit did Franky eat? He's the only one I've yet to find out.

                                                I made this badass signature.

                                                Not your average Sanji fangirl. >=)

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                                                • kryptonite
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                                                  …>_> He ate one?

                                                  AFAIK, he's only a cyborg... and only his front half. XD

                                                  Well, it did house those giant crocodiles; so it would only be natural that they were swimming in ocean waters. Also, don't forget that the "Straw-Hats" (and Smoker for that matter) all got out of Rain Base and back into the city from the ocean.

                                                  It could be fresh water, but I'll look at the map again someday… XD

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                                                  • Sanji
                                                    Sanji @kryptonite
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                                                    @kryptonite:

                                                    …>_> He ate one?

                                                    AFAIK, he's only a cyborg... and only his front half. XD

                                                    I dunno, maybe I got confuzzled with someone else. I thought has was some type of robotic thing judging by his metal nose.

                                                    I made this badass signature.

                                                    Not your average Sanji fangirl. >=)

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                                                    • A
                                                      Aycee
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                                                      What category does Donflamingo's DF ability fall into?
                                                      And that guy who can control weather?

                                                      http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8…ound5md6jx.gif http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/6/fc-sailorhinata.gif http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1...aation23za.gif http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...in-ttulo-1.gif

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                                                      • M
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                                                        Personally, I think that Donflamingo's fruit is the hone hone no mi, or bone bone fruit. So it's a Logia where he can change his structure into bone and control other bones. 🤷

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                                                        • Phlemingo
                                                          Phlemingo @Aycee
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                                                          @Aycee:

                                                          What category does Donflamingo's DF ability fall into?
                                                          And that guy who can control weather?

                                                          Neither of the entities you mentioned have a confirmed power nor devil fruit yet, so it is not advised to group them yet. Yeah mozz, I've seen your interesting theory. That would be like a new branch of paramecia though, heh 🙂

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                                                          • A
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                                                            NO, actually I think I saw DonFlamingo's DF name in the AP site.

                                                            As for the weather guy…I think he is a Logia type that can turn into air.
                                                            It wasn't just a thunderstorm he made...He also produced some wierd green wind thing.

                                                            http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8…ound5md6jx.gif http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/6/fc-sailorhinata.gif http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1...aation23za.gif http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...in-ttulo-1.gif

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                                                            • Buccaneer
                                                              Buccaneer @Sanji
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                                                              spiral

                                                              It's not really known if he didn't anything at all. And I'm sure he didn't even make the lightning.

                                                              Doflamingo has not been said to have a devil fruit yet. If someone gave you a name they were lying.

                                                              @Sanji's:

                                                              What Devil Fruit did Franky eat? He's the only one I've yet to find out.

                                                              During his third real appearance (336) he goes "I didn't eat a devil fruit!" What a relief…

                                                              Originally Posted by Battle Franky

                                                              Bad move, bub!

                                                              Sanji 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                              • Polygon
                                                                Polygon @Aycee
                                                                @Aycee last edited by
                                                                Polygon
                                                                spiral
                                                                Polygon
                                                                spiral

                                                                @Aycee:

                                                                What category does Donflamingo's DF ability fall into?

                                                                My guess is Paramecia. The Marines guy seemed to be pushing back against DonFlamingo for a second or two. But there is no confirmed awnser yet.

                                                                And that guy who can control weather?

                                                                Dragon? I honestly don't think he has a DF.

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                                                                • Sanji
                                                                  Sanji @Buccaneer
                                                                  @Buccaneer last edited by
                                                                  Sanji
                                                                  spiral
                                                                  Sanji
                                                                  spiral

                                                                  @Buccaneer:

                                                                  During his third real appearance (336) he goes "I didn't eat a devil fruit!" What a relief…

                                                                  Okay got it. 1-2-3-4-5-20 characters.

                                                                  I made this badass signature.

                                                                  Not your average Sanji fangirl. >=)

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