They were described as a societal divide in one line "They live in different habitats" in one SBS in 2002. Everything else, friendly with Fish/dominate fish I don't see as more than a quirk either.
Official Wano Thread
-
-
Not only the SBS, but also the Crocodile/Jinbe conversation after Impel Down. Crocodile is surprised that Jinbe can talk to fish, because fishmen usually can't, and Jinbe says fishmen can be quite barbaric.
It doesn't make sense that "fishmen can be quite barbaric" if they are a single society with merfolk. And even Jinbe saying that while in later events being quite annoyed by human prejudice makes it weird.
The truth is that the tidbits we got before arriving at Fishman Island do not quite mesh so well with what we find there. That always bothered me as a sort of small retcon. Nothing that could ruin the story for me, but since the subject came out, I decided to speak about it.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
-
@cavendishsama The difference is that the Mink tribe has from the get go be elaborated to be this kind of people whereas pre-Fishman Island we got hints and tidbits that dropped that. As Deicide says, it's nothing that breaks the plot. But it's noticable if you took the little lore explenation about seafolk with you when you went into the arc.
That's why I keep using the word 'disconnect' to explain the feeling. It's not something that broke the arc (because there was boatloads of other stuff that was truly underwhelming). But it's something that's out there.
-
@Deicide, I disagree with your perception of the dialogue.
Crocodile says something about thinking only merfolk could talk to fish.
Jimbe answers surprised: "is it strange for a fishman to be in friendly terms with sea creatures?" [--> first hint that's simply bullshit.]
Crocodile doubles down: "it's unusual for a fishman to be on friendly terms with anyone. You must be an exception to your barbaric race". [--> we know that's not true from Hachi, Tom and Fisher Tiger, so it's clearly a misconception that Jimbe is an exception. It's prejudice.]
Jimbe shakes it off: "I'll take that as a compliment", and then adds: "you're right, fishmen are barbaric!" [--> which is followed by Jimbe remembering Arlong and wanting to apologize to Luffy, contextualizing Jimbe's last comment as a personal grievance, not fully a validation of this racial discrimination. And if we contexualize that line with Fishman Island's lore, we know that fishman can be quite barbaric because of their history of hatred and grudge, and how this history created many Arlongs.]
__
That's why I don't see the argument for this dialogue alone creating a strong case for fishmen being barbaric (unlike merfolk) since it was noticeably Crocodile's prejudice -- and that's my first impression of the scene, btw. Obviously this dialogue could have led to an alternative universe where Crocodile was right and that was a thing, but to say there was a small retcon? I disagree.
-
@theackwardstation
I don't think it get's much clearer than a fishman himself saying "you're right, fishmen are barbaric" if he never refutes that point. Of course not all fishmen are like this and we have exceptions like Hachi and Jinbei. That's the thing with statement like these that are made to discribe an entire people, even if true they never apply 100%. Not in the real world and not in the One Piece world either. That's common knowledge.But if the author himself, makes a respectable fishman himself make such a statement, then it has to be taken at face value. Oda gives us a bit fishman lore exposition in this scene no matter how minor it is. I don't know how you take a statement made by Jinbei which confirms Crocodile's prejudice and still end up with the conclusion that it's just Crocodiles prejudice being at work here.
That's like you and I having a discussion where you say "Ivotas, you robbed the bank" to which I reply with "yes you're right, I robbed the bank" and someone else who witnesses this conversation coming to the conclusion "nah, it's probably a baseless accusation by theackwardstation". It just doesn't make any sense.
-
@Ivotas I don't think your rob-the-bank analogy makes sense here because I'm not randomly doubting the affirmation. I made my point very clear for why that sentence doesn't hold the same value in context with all the dialogue surrounding it, while you're looking at the sentence in a vacuum.
When Jimbe aks whether it's strange that fishman can be in friendly terms with fish, you can already notice that, to Jimbe, this fact is not strange at all, so it's all bullshit. The fact that Crocodile then says they're barbaric because they can't be in friendly terms with anyone, the prejudice can be smelled from 10 miles away. So yes...
-
@Deicide @Ivotas said in Official Wano Thread:
Saying that Fishman can be quite barbaric/wild (latter is the word is a fan translation) doesn't make any statement about Merfolk though. Merfolk could be barbaric too and Fishmen is often used as a blanket term for both anyways. In Fishman Island Jinbe says "every time our race has attempted to make peace with humans". In WCI he says joining Luffy will bring true freedom to the Fishman race, does that mean he doesn't want freedom for Merfolk? It's Fishman island, not Fishman and Merfolk Island, and we've known Merfolk live there since Baratie.But even if you are interpreting the Crocodile/Jinbe conversation as definitely saying: Fishmen are inherently more barbaric the Merfolk, I just don't see how that means they can't be the same society and race.
Like, Oda clearly believes Women and Men are inherently different in nature. If there are two siblings, one male, one female. The man will like robots and ninjas, and the woman won't. But obviously they are still the same race and live in the same society. Now, on Fishman Island if there are two siblings, one a male Fishman, the other a female Mermaid, they'd just be a little more different. I don't think we've seen enough about Den to talk about his personality compared to Tom's, but maybe Tom did seem a little more eccentric, a little more 'wild'. -
@theackwardstation
Sorry mate, but that is your individual reading of the situation. I take the authors words at face value over a readers personal take which runs contrary to it. No offense.@cavendishsama said in Official Wano Thread:
@Deicide @Ivotas said in Official Wano Thread:
Saying that Fishman can be quite barbaric/wild (latter is the word is a fan translation) doesn't make any statement about Merfolk though. Merfolk could be barbaric too and Fishmen is often used as a blanket term for both anyways. In Fishman Island Jinbe says "every time our race has attempted to make peace with humans". In WCI he says joining Luffy will bring true freedom to the Fishman race, does that mean he doesn't want freedom for Merfolk? It's Fishman island, not Fishman and Merfolk Island, and we've known Merfolk live there since Baratie.I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're even trying to say here. At which point did we ever indicate that Jinbei doesn't want piece for all seafolk? All we said is that the SBS and the Croc-Jinbei conversation as our first peeks into fishmen and mermen cultures seem to indicate that there's a difference between the two. And that it creates a bit of a disconnect when Den suddenly goes "nah, we're all the same".
But even if you are interpreting the Crocodile/Jinbe conversation as definitely saying: Fishmen are inherently more barbaric the Merfolk, I just don't see how that means they can't be the same society and race.
Like, Oda clearly believes Women and Men are inherently different in nature. If there are two siblings, one male, one female. The man will like robots and ninjas, and the woman won't. But obviously they are still the same race and live in the same society. Now, on Fishman Island if there are two siblings, one a male Fishman, the other a female Mermaid, they'd just be a little more different. I don't think we've seen enough about Den to talk about his personality compared to Tom's, but maybe Tom did seem a little more eccentric, a little more 'wild'.Again, I think you're missing the point here. Nobody ever said that they cannot be part of the same society. Just that the first bits of fishmen & mermen lore we were confronted with seemingly got dropped when actually arriving at Fishman Island and that it creates a bit of a disconnect to readers like Deicide and me who went into the arc with this lore in the back of our minds.
I don't even understand why we're having this big of a discussion about this tbh. Neither Deicide nor I constider this a plot breaking blunder on Oda's part. Just something that got dropped which stood out to us.
-
Considering that the very first time we see Fishmen they're framed as a violent racist gang, and that the first time we see a mermaid she is framed as sympathetic and getting sold into slavery by fishmen, I'll say that I also initially felt a distinction was being made between the two
-
@Ivotas said in Official Wano Thread:
@theackwardstation
Sorry mate, but that is your individual reading of the situation. I take the authors words at face value over a readers personal take which runs contrary to it. No offense.I recommend trying my method of reading the mood and the connotations of the dialogue as a whole. Next time you won't feel a disconnect when something that you read at face value is not as straightforward.
-
@Daz said in Official Wano Thread:
Considering that the very first time we see Fishmen they're framed as a violent racist gang
Are they like the Kurozumi, all born bad?
-
@theackwardstation said in Official Wano Thread:
@Ivotas said in Official Wano Thread:
@theackwardstation
Sorry mate, but that is your individual reading of the situation. I take the authors words at face value over a readers personal take which runs contrary to it. No offense.I recommend trying my method of reading the mood and the connotations of the dialogue as a whole. Next time you won't feel a disconnect when something that you read at face value is not as straightforward.
In the same way I recommend trying to consider that reading the mood is not an exact science and leaves a lot room for interpretation. Just because Jinbei feels guilt for what Arlong did it doesn't mean that he doesn't agree with Crocodile's assessment as a whole. There's many ways how he might feel in this situation which all are valid. Here just few selfmade examples, written in form of an inner monologue:
- "Yeah, that's how we are generally considered by humans but it's really only a small number of fishmen who are like that"
- "Yeah, we are kinda rough around the edges but I wish I could show the world one day that rough around the edges doesn't mean a barbaric people"
- "Yeah, we are kinda barbaric overall and there's one idiot amongst the many for whom I personally feel a great amount of guilt and responsibility"
- "Yeah, most of us are barbaric but that doesn't mean that there isn't also friendly and peace loving fishmen amongst us"
That's just a few but enough to prove my point. They all can be considered valid interpretations by reading the mood in this situation. So it's not like reading the mood is a failsafe approach that only can read to the conclusion you propose. That's just the conclusion you personally reached. And when things are that vague I prefer to take authors words at face value.
-
@Ivotas I'm not saying you do. My point is that Jinbe is saying: he wants peace for the Fishman race, but obviously means Fishman and Merfolk. So when he says "Fishman can be quite barbaric" it doesn't mean he's saying Fishman are barbaric, but not Merfolk. He could be saying both are. It's Crocodile who makes the distinction, not Jinbe.
@Ivotas said in Official Wano Thread:
Again, I think you're missing the point here. Nobody ever said that they cannot be part of the same society. Just that the first bits of fishmen & mermen lore we were confronted with seemingly got dropped when actually arriving at Fishman Island and that it creates a bit of a disconnect to readers like Deicide and me who went into the arc with this lore in the back of our minds.
Deicide literally said
@Deicide said in Official Wano Thread:
It doesn't make sense that "fishmen can be quite barbaric" if they are a single society with merfolk
And I'm arguing that it could make sense.
I don't know why we're talking about this either, but it kept going on so I couldn't help but get involved.
-
@cavendishsama Oh, that's what you meant. Then apologies for getting you wrong. That's a fair enough point you bring there. And while it definitely is an option, I would say you can't fault someone for reading it the way we do, when we have the authors SBS lore exposition in our mind. Also what Daz says about the way how we are first introduced by to both Fishmen and Mermen/Mermaids definitely adds to making creating a first impression of those races.
-
@Ivotas But I agree with that. It's not an exact science, so we're not supposed to have a definitive and unquestionable answer for Jimbe's feelings from that dialogue (although Crocodile's prejudice is noticeable). It's vague and muddy, and not straightforward. And that's why I find it weird that you wanted to take that sentence at face value, and then put your coins on this dialogue being a decisive indication of fishmen and merfolk being at odds with each other.
I feel like if that were the case, Oda would have hinted at that from the relationship between Camie and Hachi, but they were just fine without ambiguities. On the contrary, Sabaody established a grudge between fishfolk (as a whole) and humans instead of one between each type of fishfolk. When Jimbe said that line to Crocodile, after everything we'd learned in Sabaody and Amazon Lily, I didn't have in me the feeling that fishmen were barbaric, and the fact that the sentence sounded so disingenuous only made me doubt even more of the possibility of taking it at face value.
-
@Ivotas I would agree that the SBS line with the different habitats is an indicator that Oda may have had other plans, though to be fair, he can also be intentonally misleading sometimes.
He did have plans for sure: The Sun Tattoos were obviously present, as I said Mermaids living on Fishman Island was first mentioned in Baratie (before we ever see a Fishman, my personal thoughts at the time were, especially since either Johnny or Yosaku are specutlating whether Nami could be a mermaid, that there's only Fishman and Mermaids, no Merman or Fishwomen[Fun fact: Hatchi's crush Octopaco is the only named Fishwoman]), Jinbei's first mentioned, there's also an early SBS where Oda says Fishman Island is half way on the Grand Line.So I'm not saying Oda had it all figured out from way back when, but I think by Sabaody, he had. Sabaody Park/Arlong Park, Macro Pirates, the discrimination both Hatchi and Camie face, Fisher Tiger was first mentioned in Amazon Lily, and then Jinbei's introduction in Impel Down.
-
@theackwardstation said in Official Wano Thread:
@Ivotas But I agree with that. It's not a exact science, so we're not supposed to have a definitive and unquestionable answer for Jimbe's feelings from that dialogue (although Crocodile's prejudice is noticeable). It's vague and muddy, and not straightforward. And that's why I find it weird that you wanted to take that sentence at face value, and then put your coins on this dialogue being a decisive indication of fishmen and merfolk being at odds with each other.
It's not the statement by itself. It's the little bits and pieces that we got until this point that aling well together. If you remember, I said in the beginning that there is other parts that played a factor and that I cannot remember exactly where they were. But one thing is definitely what Daz just brought up by the readers first contact with each race. Then there's the SBS which shows a clear moral difference for both peoples. And then there's the Croc-Jinbei conversation.
All those three examples shoot in the same direction: fishman rowdy (first intruduction to the reader in form of violent racists; SBS says they want to dominate other sea creatures which comes after Arlong already wanting to dominate humans; Jinbei saying "yes, we are kinda barbaric) and Merfolk friendly (first introduced to the reader as friendly; want to befriend other sea creatures; not much on them in the Croc conversation though).
Add to that, that I haven't even addressed the big elephant in the room yet, which is them literally being called 'fishmen' and 'merfolk'. They use two different terms as labels to distinguish two groups with clearly different visual features. Everything I said above about SBS, Croc-Jinbei and their first appearances only adds further layers to the differences between the two. But even if we take all those layers out (which we shouldn't as they are added defining tidbits about both groups) the matter of fact is that they already are different both by appearance and by name. I don't get why I even need to defend this much why I feel they have not been portrayed to be the same prior to Fishman Island.
And I have to repeat this again, I'm not saying they are at odds with each other. If that's about argument I made about me saying that I think the conflict between the slums and the royalty, then I repeat that this is a completely different discussion. Yes, I believe that the difference between fishmen and merfolk might be a cause that led to this in entire conflict in the first place. But this is completely my own theory about the history of the conflict. It's a completely different point of discussion that shall not be connected to the "feeling of disconnect" discussion. All I'm saying is that there is more than one thing that showed fishmen and merfolk to be different. Not to be at odds, with each other. Not that they cannot befriend each other. Just that they are different. And when Den suddenly goes, "yeah, we're basically all the same and all the difference humans see in us are completely human-made" then I just feel a certain amount of disconnect with everything that came before.
I feel like if that were the case, Oda would have hinted at that from the relationship between Camie and Hachi, but they were just fine without ambiguities. On the contrary, Sabaody established a grudge between fishfolk (as a whole) and humans instead of one between each type of fishfolk. When Jimbe said that line to Crocodile, after everything we'd learned in Sabaody and Amazon Lily, I didn't have in me the feeling that fishmen were barbaric, and the fact that the sentence sounded so disingenuous only made me doubt even more of the possibility of taking it at face value.
Just as I said above, nowhere do I imply that fishman and merfolk cannot befriend each other. I'm having a problem with "yeah, we're all the same" when everything before said they are not.
And just one last thing about the racism thing between them. I repeat, that has nothing to do with the disconnect. But just because there's a racism on a bigger level between all seafolk and humans, it doesn't mean that there can't be racism on a local level. There's countless examples for this both in the real world and in fiction. But as stated already, this racism part is completely my own theory about where the conflict between the slum and royalty is coming from. It's a completly different discussion from me feeling a disconnect ever since Den openened his mouth. Let's not mix those two discussions up just because both involve differences between fishmen and merfolk.
-
Keeping in mind how I feel Yamato is set-up to come back and join by Laugh Tale after everything that was said and done, I gotta say, this is prob the worst, most tone-deaf Wano panel with Yamato in it. Feels as if one is being mocked for time/panels being wasted.
-
c'mon electricmastro your pearl clutching is hitting comedic tones now
-
This post is deleted!
-
Did kawamatsu and jinbei ever interact with each other?. How can Oda not do that?.
-
@realtenchu Why did they have to interact? Because they are both fish-men? That sounds fishy.
-
In my headcanon I see them both meeting in a dojo and having Gym Bro's conversations...
Jinbei: "Crawl?"
Kawamatsu: "Crawl!"
Jinbei: "Stroke?"
Kawamatsu: "Stroke!"That definitely happened off-panel and nobody can tell me otherwise.
-
Considering Shirahoshi's case, I'm wondering if "Pluton" is actually the battleship itself, or just the name of the one who commands Pluton, and that Sukiyaki was mistaken
-
The German dub of the anime is currently airing Act 2 of Wano for the first time over here and I completely forgot what a gut punch the Smile reveal was. It's a great twist that at least feels like it was planned from the beginning, and the fate of the people of Ebisu is really heartwrenching. I'm kinda glad that Chopper didn't get to cure them as some predicted; Oda made the mistake in Punk Hazard of curing all the people who seemingly had been killed by Caesar's gas, which retroactively robbed the arc a lot of its dramatic power. So I'm glad Oda decided against doing something similar here, as tragic as it is.
Toko's fate in particular is absolutely messed up. When she'll be an adult, she will have a backstory as tragic as any of the Strawhats. I mean, she freaking had to watch her father be brutally executed in front of her and could only laugh at his dead body because she was robbed of the ability to properly express grief and sadness. It's super dark and fucked up if you think about it, damn.
-
@electricmastro said in Official Wano Thread:
Considering Shirahoshi's case, I'm wondering if "Pluton" is actually the battleship itself, or just the name of the one who commands Pluton, and that Sukiyaki was mistaken
And who do you think has the power to command it.
Poseidon is very fitting, a living being who has great command of the seas. I wonder and hope that aside from commanding the sea kings, she also has power over the actual water.
Uranus is the one I’m more curious about. What is it?.
-
We went to a huge saga in Water Seven and Enies Lobby where the whole conflict was started over a decade ago because the WG wanted to have the blueprints to build the battleship Pluton. Seeing as how Franky went "can you even build a thing like that" and "Lucchi, Kaku, you've been shipwrights for five years so can tell that these blueprints are the real deal" pretty much cements it as being an actual vehicle. If Oda would pull a Shirahoshi on us with Pluton it would be yet another case of bad build up.
-
There's a theory (I think it's Ohara's) that the Ancient Weapons are all composed of three elements: a mythic creature, a vehicle and an operator.
Like Poseidon would be Shirahoshi as the operator, Noah as the vehicle and the Sea Kings as the creatures.
And in the case of Pluton, the ship is the vehicle. I think they theorized that Momo was the operator and Zunisha is the creature? Not sure.
And I also think they pointed the giant egg in Roger's ship as the possible creature for Uranus.It's just a theory from someone else, but I thought it was interesting even thought I don't subscribe to it.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
-
-
@Riddler said in Official Wano Thread:
The German dub of the anime is currently airing Act 2 of Wano for the first time over here and I completely forgot what a gut punch the Smile reveal was. It's a great twist that at least feels like it was planned from the beginning, and the fate of the people of Ebisu is really heartwrenching. I'm kinda glad that Chopper didn't get to cure them as some predicted; Oda made the mistake in Punk Hazard of curing all the people who seemingly had been killed by Caesar's gas, which retroactively robbed the arc a lot of its dramatic power. So I'm glad Oda decided against doing something similar here, as tragic as it is.
Toko's fate in particular is absolutely messed up. When she'll be an adult, she will have a backstory as tragic as any of the Strawhats. I mean, she freaking had to watch her father be brutally executed in front of her and could only laugh at his dead body because she was robbed of the ability to properly express grief and sadness. It's super dark and fucked up if you think about it, damn.
Don't know, I really don't like that we never returned to that aspect of the plot. It's fine to not find a cure right there and then. But not having a single of the doctors say something along the lines of "no matter what it takes, we will find a cure and come back to heal you one day" just leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Because it feels like if the heroes just accepted that this is a tragedy the just shrugged of as a "welp, it can't be helped I guess" kind of scenario. Especially with someone like Killer still suffering from that for Kid to never return this subject after being freaked out the first time just feels off to me.
-
@danie said in Official Wano Thread:
@realtenchu Why did they have to interact? Because they are both fish-men? That sounds fishy.
Sounds fishy and logical. We don’t have many fishmen living in the surface specially most of their life and Kawamatsu is this, it would have been nice some interaction between him and jinbei. Have Kawamatsu ever been to fishmen island?. He must have some questions about it. Also it would have been a good idea if Kawamatsu had ran off to fishman island with hiyori instead of staying in wano.
-
@realtenchu Oh yeah, good points.
I seem to remember Kawamatsu and his mom were discriminated against in Wano when he was a kid, and he doesn't even consider himself a fish-man but a kappa... So he probably doesn't know anything about fish-men island.
It would have been great if Kawamatsu guided Hiyori in using the sword her dad left her, but Oda just couldn't have such a strong swords-woman huh.
-
@realtenchu said in Official Wano Thread:
@electricmastro said in Official Wano Thread:
Considering Shirahoshi's case, I'm wondering if "Pluton" is actually the battleship itself, or just the name of the one who commands Pluton, and that Sukiyaki was mistaken
And who do you think has the power to command it.
Poseidon is very fitting, a living being who has great command of the seas. I wonder and hope that aside from commanding the sea kings, she also has power over the actual water.
Uranus is the one I’m more curious about. What is it?.
Well, seeing as Shirahoshi is a "Mermaid Princess" and Yamato is an "Oni Princess" whom Kaido valued as an addition to his military strength, it might turn out that Kaido was aiming Yamato to be the one to command Pluton.
-
I disagree with the notion that Zoro was obligated to visit a grave. Much of the arc and the series is about passed on will. Zoro got to experience that through companions and descendants of Ryuma, Ryuma was a protector of Wano.
Zoro was not only able to see Yasuie protecting Wano in multiple ways. He battled Onimaru that carries that will as well from another Shimotsuki. That's not too different than drawing from early One Piece methods where Chouchou is looking over the shop in Hocker's place.
Zoro seeing that Ryuma's will is still alive speaks greater volume and is Romance to its core.
-
I might be mistaken but didn't Zoro actually say in the manga that he wanted to visit Ryuma's grave or something along the lines? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought something like that was said.
That aside, even without Zoro announcing to visit Ryuma's grave, it's kind of a weird send off to Shusui when compared to how Zoro parted ways with Yubashiri. It was at the end of Thriller Bark, where he placed the sword next to the 'tombstone' of the Rumbar Pirates and offered a prayer parting ways with it. I simply find it a bit lackluster that the same guy would not show the similar 'farewell' moment with Shusui considering how his aquisition of the sword played out.
-
Yamato voiced wanting to join the crew and found a greater purpose. It fit what he did for most of Onigashima and that was babysit Momo as opposed to interacting with the crew outside of Luffy. Zoro said he'd round up the Samurai and was instead part of attaining the weapons.
Standing in front of a grave (954) for a panel is nothing compared to seeing Yasuie's effect on Ebisu or Onimaru holding down the fort. Then to learn his village was started by the same family. It ties into the immediate story without being kitsch for nostalgia purposes.
I'm a Zoro fan and even to me, it sounds like fan service to stand in front of a grave. Nami was told Big Mom would be one way in TB and was the other. She still got Zeus out of it.
Story is continuously topping what is foreshadowed or telegraphed by rewarding the characters with more of an experience than checking off a box with "look he's at the grave" or "yes, she's as helpful as Lola said she was".
I don't remember the two swords Mihawk destroyed getting a sendoff. Every item getting the Merry treatment is repetitive and comes off as nostalgia/fan service.
-
The two swords Mihawk destroyed never were established to have any deeper meaning (prior to Wano) and were pretty much nameless swords #1 and #2. Yubashiri on the other hand was a named sword giving to Zoro as a sign of respect from a sword lover, who acknowledged Zoro as a great swordsman. This gesture meant something. We even see Zoro at the end of Water Seven remembering the store owner and apologizing for having broken the sword.
Swords #1 and #2 are nowhere near this moment. And even in the Wano revelation, where we found out he got them from Kuina's grandpa, they were treated as lesser swords by the swordsmith who made them.
I'm saying that what you say is wrong about Zoro getting the full weight of what's been going on in Wano after witnessing Yasuie's death. Because you're not wrong. All I'm saying is that with what we've seen of how Zoro treats the presents given to him, him visiting Ryuma's grave and returning the sword would have been a nice way to round up him parting with the sword. Just getting it taken away from a Fox turned monk without any 'farewell my friend, thank you for all your support' feels a bit meh.
If I remember correctly, we didn't even see the sword taken away, MonkBearFox just had it. Even swords #1 and #2 had more presense in comparison, as we could visually see them being destroyed by the worlds strongest swordman.
-
Name or not, if who gave it matters, then receiving it from Koushirou should hold as much weight as getting it from Ipponmatsu. Unless Koushirou is now a nobody now?
Well, Onimaru isn't just some random beast with a DF. He's basically a Shimotsuki. Him taking it is part of Zoro's whole Shimotsuki tour. Being taken by those technically carrying Ryuma's will is too intimate to be ignored. Ryuma's work of holding down Wano is still in play.
-
I think you meant Kozaburo not Koshiro. And I'm not saying he's an unimportant character. Far from it. But the grandpa seems like a character that Oda came up with at a later point. Of course that's just my personal opinion but it seems like the swords were not meant to have any backstory, when they were destroyed.
Right again you are that the Fox is not a random nobody and has ties to Shimotsuki. But the way how Zoro parted ways with Shusui is not what I consider an elegant approach. Yes, there is a reason why the fox wants Shusui back. Even Hyori made it clear how important the sword culturally is to Wano. But to just having it being taken away without a proper 'farewell' just feels lacking to me.
-
Oh, didn't know he left with those same swords. Thought Koushiro gave it to him. Damn, then those 2 go back further than Wado. That surprisingly proves my point even further, but whatever.
Even if I eliminate the founder's words that helped Zoro beat King, the swords he lost right before he gave his promise to Luffy definitely hold weight. It was his first time fighting his rival/teacher. How could the weapons he posses at that point not have a story? That moment is the story.
Zoro fought the protector of the graves and I think they showed Ryuma's grave in 1023 as Kawamatsu compared Zoro to Ryuma having 1 eye. If Oda wants to show it in a flashback at some point, it wouldn't hurt. I just don't see it as necessary after all he made out of it from showing the passed down will, establishing that blades are grave markers, having the search for Shusui fast track Kawamatsu to reuniting with Hiyori and finding the weapons.
It just did so much that a grave visit seems like an afterthought.
-
@Cockycent said in Official Wano Thread:
Oh, didn't know he left with those same swords. Thought Koushiro gave it to him. Damn, then those 2 go back further than Wado. That surprisingly proves my point even further, but whatever.
Are they not? At least that's how read it. I might have been mistaken though.
Even if I eliminate the founder's words that helped Zoro beat King, the swords he lost right before he gave his promise to Luffy definitely hold weight. It was his first time fighting his rival/teacher. How could the weapons he posses at that point not have a story? That moment is the story.
Let's say we agree on disagree on this matter then. That those swords were easily destroyed by such an important person doesn't necessarily mean that they have a backstory. Especially if we later find out that there are named swords which are the good ones, whereas broken sword #1 and #2 have no name and got broken easily. It's not a stretch to have considered them of nothing but backround noise at that point in the story.
Zoro fought the protector of the graves and I think they showed Ryuma's grave in 1023 as Kawamatsu compared Zoro to Ryuma having 1 eye. If Oda wants to show it in a flashback at some point, it wouldn't hurt. I just don't see it as necessary after all he made out of it from showing the passed down will, establishing that blades are grave markers, having the search for Shusui fast track Kawamatsu to reuniting with Hiyori and finding the weapons.
It just did so much that a grave visit seems like an afterthought.
I repeat, that's not a wrong assessment of yours. I'm just trying to provide you one possible explenation of why to some guys, myself included the lack of a grave visit would feel like a bit of a letdown. The entire way how Zoro parted ways with Shusui (offscreen) felt underwhelming to me. Not saying the grave visit is the only way to actually part ways, without the sword simply getting stolen and never returned. It's just the one that would have been a nice nod to Zoro's final words to Zombie Ryuma.
-
I eventually gave up on following the swordstuff in the Wano arc. You have Ryumas important sword which Zoro trades for Odens important sword (which i gues Momonosuke lets him keep?), Oden also had a less important sword, I don't know what happened to that, I remember he had them with him in jail somehow. And also theres a new kitetsu sword I think? And some were made by Odens dad (or did he just hold onto them?) and some were made by Zoro Village Wano Emigrant Guy? Too many swords.
Can anyone help me figure out how Zoro overcame Enmas haki-drainage? I never understood that. What change in perspective / approach did he get from his flashback? As far as I recall he just...pumped more haki juice into Enma? And then his other swords started smoking too?
-
I'm not sure on where those swords are from now. Either way, they were there when he lost to his master and gave his big promise. If that isn't a meaningful moment, then I don't know what is. The same promise he tries to stick to and was part of how he took control of Enma. There was the promise with Kuina's death, now it's the one to Luffy. Add on top of it, it's from the first person to give him swords on panel (in OP timeline) or Koushiro???
If this were meaningful points, the swords from his hometown that broke against his master/teacher, then gave his big promise outweighs sword from random Loguetown local.
Now that I think about it, the way Oda framed it (1033) is that Ipponmatsu is the "weak" that didn't understand blades and warped Zoro's perception of blades being cursed. While he remembers Kozaburo's words as he receives the 2 legendary unnamed swords, the old timer tells him that the mindset of seeing blades as cursed is only because it is dangerous and of great quality. Well, this proves it. It didn't matter when Kozaburo said it because Zoro was an unknowing child. Ipponmatsu brainwashed him when he was older and now remembering it in Wano got rid of the bad man's indoctrination.
-
@Cockycent said in Official Wano Thread:
I'm not sure on where those swords are from now. Either way, they were there when he lost to his master and gave his big promise. If that isn't a meaningful moment, then I don't know what is. The same promise he tries to stick to and was part of how he took control of Enma. There was the promise with Kuina's death, now it's the one to Luffy. Add on top of it, it's from the first person to give him swords on panel (in OP timeline) or Koushiro???
If this were meaningful points, the swords from his hometown that broke against his master/teacher, then gave his big promise outweighs sword from random Loguetown local.
I think you got me wrong. I didn't say that moment is meaningless. I said that the swords themselves seemed of lesser importance because those broke while Wadoichimonji didn't. And everything we learned about named swords up to Wano just added further to the idea of them being nothing special.
Now that I think about it, the way Oda framed it (1033) is that Ipponmatsu is the "weak" that didn't understand blades and warped Zoro's perception of blades being cursed. While he remembers Kozaburo's words as he receives the 2 legendary unnamed swords, the old timer tells him that the mindset of seeing blades as cursed is only because it is dangerous and of great quality. Well, this proves it. It didn't matter when Kozaburo said it because Zoro was an unknowing child. Ipponmatsu brainwashed him when he was older and now remembering it in Wano got rid of the bad man's indoctrination.
Is it really, Ipponmatsu's fault? If I remember correctly, the first person to say the sword was cursed has been Zoro. Ipponmatsu just didn't want to sell it to him.
-
Zoro seemed thrilled to see them even after the old guy referred to them as crap. They also look like his first swords. At least on panel, chronologically. There's just way more of a story to those 2 unnamed blades than the one that rotted to Shu. Not only did they go down to a more valued character, in story, it was his first blades on panel. Not being famed blades dictates how much they meant to a kid that wants to be a swordsman?
Definitely not his fault but the framing points to both him and Ipponmatsu as weak in this concept by big swordsmith expert Kozaburo. Once he got his mind out of there and remembered his promise, he was good and on his way.
-
Oh for Zoro the swords Kozaburo gave him definitely are special because they seem to be his first real swords he ever gotten. So to an 8 year old child even trash swords are the best. If those are really the same swords Mihawk broke, then it would mean he was carrying them around for about a decade. In that case they should definitely hold a special place in his heart. Which looking at it that way, makes it even more weird that he never mourned their loss. The only thing we seemed to be concerned at that time (meaning during the conflict at Arlong Park) is to be unable to use Three Sword Style with just Wadoichimonji. But the loss of such to him precious swords has never been addressed. To me that makes it even more seem, that Oda came up with the backstory of the swords much later. But to the reader those swords were just regular swords with no special meaning for the longest time, which I guess is why Oda never showed Zoro mourning their loss.
Well, a master swordsmith that lived a long life definitely will have a more seasoned view on what makes a true sword. Zoro is still growing and he definitely was growing back then. And Ipponmatsu doesn't seem to be neither swordsman nor swordsmith so for all his love of swords I'd say he also definitely has not an understand of swords as Kozaburo did.
-
Well, I thought it was from his master at the time when first reading. Didn't know there was a great wise old timer that gave him shit swords and bashed other characters as weak for not being informed.
Forget Ipponmatsu, it looked like for all the knowledge in Tashigi, she only knows the names and their fame, but not that it's "cursed". I guess she is greater than Ipponmatsu for not calling it cursed at the time. Ipponmatsu really is a lower tier character.
-
Fair enough. There's no reason to not think he didn't get the swords from his master. I personally never thought much about them and took them for generic weapons. Just like Usopp's first slingshot didn't seem to be anything special at all. He just used it until he developed Kabuto (that was a fine slinghshot).
He truly is. In my head I picture his knowledge come from unsatisfied customers going "I lost an arm because of the whack sword you've sold me. Refund it or apologise by let me cut off your arm!"[/headcanon]
-
@Daz said in Official Wano Thread:
Can anyone help me figure out how Zoro overcame Enmas haki-drainage? I never understood that. What change in perspective / approach did he get from his flashback? As far as I recall he just...pumped more haki juice into Enma? And then his other swords started smoking too?
I think the idea was instead of trying to protect himself by limiting how much haki he's losing he gave in to giving the sword maximum haki to get the best attack he can.
And I think the flashback was about how he was trying to be fancy about the sword when they are meant to kill so he should focus on making it the best weapon instead of limiting it.
