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    Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

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    • zeltrax225
      zeltrax225
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      I really hope people at least understand that when Oda wrote that scene, he had zero to no intentions of portraying rape or anything of that severity.
      Was he misinformed? Yes, was it something that he should looked into? Yes probably.
      It was a honest mistake, he's not omnipotent and this can be said for this case with the mess that is Yamato's gender too.
      His intention then with Sanji, was to portray it as a comedy-ish scene and it is very difficult for him to flesh out the okama in the limited panels, so the way he went about it was to have them act in the one-way that in his mind that he is most familiar with. This familiarity is a problem and is a underrepresentation, and even a poor one of the community but I don't necessarily think he did it with an intention of generalizing them.
      Transgender issues in Japan hasn't been the most progressive WHEN compared to the States but it has been improving and if you've spend enough time with Japanese media, there are way way more shows/manga/whatever that overly generalize transgender people as a certain type of mama personality. You would, however, find this stereotype in early American movies too which surprisingly is something that the older generation of Japanese would easily stereotype or generalize when they think about transgender personalities.

      Which is wrong because the world is more progressive now but I don't go full fire on Oda if that's his first thought to fall back on when it comes to writing characters of that nature because I at least understand that this is not what his work is about and he has never had the intention to degrade them. I like to believe he wants to be more progressive but can be prone to mistakes, but the intention of wanting to shouldn't be a mistake we focus on. This guy wrote amazing transgender characters (mr 2) that relatively speaking was not seen in the industry for decades and has not yet been topped. The west needs to understand that being sensitive and "correct" about the minority communities is not something that is as much in-your-face or an open conversation as it is in countries like Japan. Unlike the culture over there, Oda isn't frequently in contact with this sensitivities or the insensitivities that should be practiced. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't put more effort into researching and understanding but give the guy a break and practice some cultural understanding.

      If I'm not wrong and this is obviously going to piss people off, I think his intentions for Yamato has been to have a different kind of female character to join the crew that stands out from Robin and Nami while being very strong and is, like many straw hats, influence by a major character(which is Oden). He obviously didn't want to write another guy, which is how Yamato comes into play. This is 100% conjecture and time will tell whether I am right. He don't want to write another male straw hat, the crew is lacking of females but he still want someone to carry oden's legacy to be one the boat. Another female that is not physically combat fit will be very similar to Nami and that's a problem.
      Once again, conjecture so don't flame me but if you do, sure I'll get it. I won't even be surprised if I come back to this thread a year from now and Yamato is dressed in female attires in color spreads because the production crew from writing to the anime has made little attempts to portray her otherwise.

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      • MiyamotoMusashi
        MiyamotoMusashi @wolfwood
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        @wolfwood:

        Being chased, forcibly undressed and made to dress in fetish gear is certainly outside of my zone of acceptable behaviour. Try doing that to a woman and explain that i wasn't assaulting her i was just trying to "free her spirit". They were forcing themselves on an unwilling Sunkist and that is enough for it to feel rapey in my book

        Which is still not rape. Like i said, i am neither condoning it, nor denying it was not in bad taste, but yeah, its not rape since it both lacks a sexual intention and action.

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        • wolfwood
          wolfwood
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          @MiyamotoMusashi
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          @MiyamotoMusashi:

          Which is still not rape. Like i said, i am neither condoning it, nor denying it was not in bad taste, but yeah, its not rape since it both lacks a sexual intention and action.

          Intimately fondling and undressing someone kicking and screaming and trying to get away is an act of rape where i'm from. Even 1960's Sean Connery wouldn't think that shit was acceptable.

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          • ArmamentHero
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            Uh…..

            All this info coming out is real interesting.

            Yamatos unknown birth origin is another hint toward a flashback happening. Rather it's Kaido's or his.

            Here’s how Naruto should end: Last panel is Naruto standing proudly over Konohagakure. Slowly zoom out to reveal Luffy staring into a snowglobe with a miniature Konoha inside it. Usopp asks him what he’s doing. Luffy replies “Thinkin’ bout ninjas! Ninjas are cool!” and then chucks it off the ship

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            • black-leg jex
              black-leg jex
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              I don't think Oda is using Yamato to make a social commentary on gender. I'm pretty sure he's just created a character who was born female but now wants to be presented as male. That doesn't have to be a commentary on anything, that's like saying every gay person in fiction has to be a commentary on homosexuality which is just ridiculous.

              Using the right pronouns is just a matter of common decency, and this seems to be where the community is polarised for some dumb reason.

              I'm pretty confident the only reason its not as discussed in Japan is because of the lack of pronouns. In most discussions I've seen they just treat Yamato as Yamato wants to be treated in the story, as a man.

              ![](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg198/scaled.php?server=198&filename=groosesig.png&res=m edium)

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              • rayleigh92
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                I don't think there're doubts about if Newkama were trying to rape Sanji or not. I mean, half if not all of our cultures used to depict or make humour about how a transgender (which back then was automatically an homosexual) is a menace for heterosexuals' rear ends until just ten years ago and that scene was literally a hetero man running away from hungry transgender. It's clear the whole Sanji scene were just a way to refers to that very same "gag". The "Ace Ventura" attitude was a recurring gag for almost the whole previous generation people, and I really don't think Japanese is an exception, judging by how real life okamas were dealt with like perverts. It's basically one of the reasons there's need for a media rehabilitation of LGBTQ+ community.

                Oda is part of that generation and this is one of the reasons him depicting O-Kiku so good is such a goal and a beautiful redeeming action.

                Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                • RoboBlue
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                  I went back and looked at the two manga panels we're talking about.

                  from the One Piece wiki:

                  Adventure on The Island of No Escape

                  Maidens Through and Through

                  I'm really not seeing any rape implications. At the time I read it as Sanji's okamaphobia being revealed to have been a subconscious attempt by him to run away from an aspect of himself, and eventually he gives in and becomes happier.
                  But because he's a main character in a long-running shounen manga he can't just go off and have a new life, so he's forced by fate to repress his newfound happiness and go back to living the way he did before for the sake of his friends.

                  When I looked up some clips from the anime it got a lot more sexual harassment-y so I can see why people got the impression that they were attempting to rape Sanji… but clearly when they caught him he didn't end up an okama sex slave. At worst the joke is that Sanji thought they were trying to rape him when in reality they just wanted him to join them, which he turned out to be happy doing until his own ingrained ideas about how men should act stopped him.

                  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/913949065446850590/964418994973073479/RPReplay_Final1650004792.mov

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                  • Robby
                    Robby @RoboBlue
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                    Harassing someone constantly, chasing them, ripping off their clothes, and forcing them into doing what you want… endlessly for two years! in a way that leaves a person traumatized afterwards is absolutely sexual assault.

                    I'm not saying they wanted buttsechs, but they definitely wanted to violate Sanji's comfort zones and put their hands all over him and make him their pretty slave against his will.

                    If the Okama had done that to Nami or Robin and insisted THEY had to be touched and undressed and made to dress prettier you'd be incredibly offended.

                    Thats EXACTLY what Absalom did, just an arc earlier, and he was played completely as an iredeemable horror villain. To the point he's one of the few characters Oda's actually willing to kill!

                    @RoboBlue:

                    I'm really not seeing any rape implications.

                    You're ignoring all the context that came AFTER that two panel gag.

                    They caught him ONCE, and he played along ONCE so he could escape, and then he spent the NEXT TWO YEARS running endlessly so that they couldn't do it again. Sanji has full on vietnam flashbacks and turns to stone when he sees any okama now, and nearly died the first time he saw a woman again afterward.

                    No one else was traumatized by their two years of training.

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                    • MiyamotoMusashi
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                      Being traumatized and possible rape implications are two different things.
                      The Kamabakka people were trying to make him adapt to them and give up his "manhood" (which is offensive in itself) by putting on a dress on him and whatever else it entails to be like them. Sanji´s trauma is from defending his manhood for 2 years day and night, since they would constantly chase him and try to put him in the dress.
                      There is no implication, no metaphor, no hint, that we are supposed to think "they want to rape him, hence Sanji is running", it was all about Sanji defending one of his core personality traits and principles. I also don´t know where the groping and putting their hands all over him and making him a slave comes from, in the manga nothing of the sort happened. Like Robo said, the anime was much more rapey and suggestive in their filler scenes, the manga had one core challenge, Sanji either defending his manliness and love for women, or becoming like the Kamabakka people. Nobody is saying Sanji had a good time, and the Kamabakka people forcing Sanji basically to become like them is problematic for different reasons, rape (which is non synonymous with sexual assault in the first place, just fyi) is not one of them.
                      And i know this might seem like arguing semantics, but it isn´t, since straight out trying to rape somebody and being misguided in trying to liberate somebody (from their point of view) and harassing him/her are two vastly different things, and distinguishing them should be viable in a forum that has been arguing about the correct pronouns of a fictional character for a year or so.

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                      • Robby
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                        I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.

                        Definition of rape (Entry 1 of 4)

                        1:unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

                        It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

                        "unlawful sexual activity… forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"

                        Other dictionary definitions

                        2: an outrageous violation
                        3: an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force

                        Hey, what does that sound like?

                        Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.

                        Greens green and nothing but green! Parsley, peppers, cabbages, and celery.
                        Asparagus and Watercress and Fiddlefern and Lettuce. He said "Alright!"
                        But it wasn't quite cause I caught him in the autumn in my garden one night!
                        He was robbing me, RAPING ME.
                        Rudding through my rutabagga raiding my arugula ripping up the Rampion my champion my favorite!

                        Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

                        I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

                        I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"

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                        • R
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                          So…sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?

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                          • Robby
                            Robby @Rundas
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                            @Rundas:

                            So…sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?

                            Not really, because it randomly breaks out in a bunch of other threads (spoilers especially) no matter what and will likely continue until the end of the arc when we learn to what degree Yamato does or doesn't abandon his "Oden-ness".

                            We have a general LGBT thread but it never makes it to there.

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                            • fana
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                              I knew that the definition of the rape word varied around the world (like I knew for instance how Sweden's definition is broader than almost everywhere else) but I never expected it to be employed in such situation. By that definition, so many manga/anime I've read/watch since my childhood have at least 1 rape sequence.

                              In any case, I disagree with that interpretation of Sanji's hell and I'll move on to something else : give me more info on that proto small and fat Yamato. I want her in the crew 😁

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                              • wolfwood
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                                Well yeah, i mean a lot of older media has that pepe le pew style rapist behaviour in it.

                                –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                I mean the gag with Sanji is he does not want it, but they are gonna do it to him anyway. If he stops running for even a second these your lips say no but your eyes say yes rapists are going to do stuff to him, stuff that leaves him traumatized for years afterwards. I mean unless you are their lawyer arguing for a lesser sentance this type of oh they never put their genitalia in his genitalia arguments are absurd, you know what the implication is, i know what the implication is, and it is gross

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                                • RoboBlue
                                  RoboBlue
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                                  @Robby:

                                  I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.

                                  It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

                                  "unlawful sexual activity… forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"

                                  Other dictionary definitions

                                  Hey, what does that sound like?

                                  Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.

                                  Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

                                  I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

                                  I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"

                                  Do you mind if we just use the more common terms instead of "rape" for everything in the future?

                                  It's confusing and there are not insignificant reasons that some people would prefer sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape to remain firmly separate.

                                  @wolfwood:

                                  Well yeah, i mean a lot of older media has that pepe le pew style rapist behaviour in it.

                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                  I mean the gag with Sanji is he does not want it, but they are gonna do it to him anyway. If he stops running for even a second these your lips say no but your eyes say yes rapists are going to do stuff to him, stuff that leaves him traumatized for years afterwards. I mean unless you are their lawyer arguing for a lesser sentance this type of oh they never put their genitalia in his genitalia arguments are absurd, you know what the implication is, i know what the implication is, and it is gross

                                  He was afraid they were going to put the dress back on him, not shove their sexual organs inside him.

                                  That seems pretty clear honestly.

                                  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/913949065446850590/964418994973073479/RPReplay_Final1650004792.mov

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                                  • JulieYBM
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                                    The Okama scream stereotypes and actively make me sick to look at and think about. They also prove that Oda has definitely just…not researched us before. One can't go on trans Twitter or Reddit and seeing a slew of hot trans women. 😆

                                    Anyway, yeah, I always read them as being coded or written as outright rapists...which is also extremely offensive. Just like Oda needing to constantly point out that "Kiku is/was a man!" Like...listen. Stop. I don't need a cis guy writing a trans tragedy story. At all.

                                    She/Her

                                    Don't like the gender you were assigned at birth? Change it!

                                    Want to be a girl? Click here!

                                    What's gender dysphoria, you ask? Click here to find out!

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                                    • rayleigh92
                                      rayleigh92 @JulieYBM
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                                      @JulieYBM:

                                      The Okama scream stereotypes and actively make me sick to look at and think about. They also prove that Oda has definitely just…not researched us before. One can't go on trans Twitter or Reddit and seeing a slew of hot trans women. 😆

                                      Anyway, yeah, I always read them as being coded or written as outright rapists...which is also extremely offensive. Just like Oda needing to constantly point out that "Kiku is/was a man!" Like...listen. Stop. I don't need a cis guy writing a trans tragedy story. At all.

                                      I don't remember Oda insistently underlining Kiku was a man. Like I do remember only when she claimed her woman heart and the fact she was addressed as a male when being a kid.

                                      The whole Kiku depiction doesn't looks this bad and doesn't even looks like a "trans tragedy story".

                                      On a side note I don't believe the "speaking about a topic" needs you author to be part of it, just be informed enough. Which actually Oda "seems" to have done between the newkama wave and Kiku's debut.

                                      Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                                      • Deicide
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                                        Oda made awesome characters in Ivankov, Mr. 2 Bon Kurei and Kiku. And there's also Morley and Inazuma around, thought their sexuality is a little less exposed. The Kamabaka people are just a funny gag. They are to be taken as seriously as the straight men having nosebleeds and fainting over Nami, or everyone acting like an idiot around Hancock.

                                        Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                        • King Cannon
                                          King Cannon @Deicide
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                                          @Deicide:

                                          Oda made awesome characters in Ivankov, Mr. 2 Bon Kurei and Kiku. And there's also Morley and Inazuma around, thought their sexuality is a little less exposed. The Kamabaka people are just a funny gag. They are to be taken as seriously as the straight men having nosebleeds and fainting over Nami, or everyone acting like an idiot around Hancock.

                                          Sanji's behavior around women itself carries its own baggage of problems.

                                          Even in Japan, the overly pervert character is starting to fade in popularity. Sanji still has his main character status and other personality traits to keep him popular, but other characters that attempt the same joke like Kin'emon and Momonosuke end up not nearly as liked as a result.

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                                          • JulieYBM
                                            JulieYBM @rayleigh92
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                                            @rayleigh92:

                                            I don't remember Oda insistently underlining Kiku was a man. Like I do remember only when she claimed her woman heart and the fact she was addressed as a male when being a kid.

                                            The whole Kiku depiction doesn't looks this bad and doesn't even looks like a "trans tragedy story".

                                            On a side note I don't believe the "speaking about a topic" needs you author to be part of it, just be informed enough. Which actually Oda "seems" to have done between the newkama wave and Kiku's debut.

                                            Considering the bullshit I have to put up with in my daily life and in the media that cishet people consume and use as a basis for their understanding of trans and gender non-conforming people I'm allowed to be as criticial as I lile of the millionaire with the massive platform's portrayal of people like me.

                                            She/Her

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                                            Want to be a girl? Click here!

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                                            • rayleigh92
                                              rayleigh92 @King Cannon
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                                              @King:

                                              Sanji's behavior around women itself carries its own baggage of problems.

                                              Even in Japan, the overly pervert character is starting to fade in popularity. Sanji still has his main character status and other personality traits to keep him popular, but other characters that attempt the same joke like Kin'emon and Momonosuke end up not nearly as liked as a result.

                                              Glad to hear this. In fact I am finding lesser and lesser pervert characters in new anime and I was beginning to think of this. I know there's a whole different sexual culture in Japan, but hearing some behaviours are not trending anymore can't make me more happy. Let's say it: pervert characters are just like okamas, a bad heritage of some sort of humour.

                                              This is not stopping Sanji by defecting Onigashima mission just to seek for geishas, but there's time.

                                              Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                                              • MiyamotoMusashi
                                                MiyamotoMusashi @Robby
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                                                @Robby:

                                                I can't believe I have to explain this to a room of adults and literally pull out the dictionary definition but FINE.

                                                It doesn't HAVE to include intercourse, that's just how we commonly use it when we make it strong word.. But any amount of unwanted sexual attention applied by force counts, even if you don't get to penetration. If one of the two parties is unwilling then its still rape, (or "attempted rape) regardless of how far it gets.

                                                "unlawful sexual activity… forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will"

                                                Other dictionary definitions

                                                Hey, what does that sound like?

                                                Hey, here's a song lyric from 1986 musical Into the Woods.

                                                Wow, is the witch implying there that the farmer was doing sex things to her? No, she was talking about the fact that he was violating her personal stuff!

                                                I'm sorry I used a common shorthand word that accurately fit the situation to paraphrase in a throwaway sentence and it turned into THIS. It wasn't even the subject of my post!

                                                I really wasn't expecting people to go "No, they wanted his manhood, not his manhood!"

                                                Be consistent with what you argue please, the other two definitions do not represent the way you used it due to the sexual nature you implied, nor is it in any way common in everyday usage and seems outdated (unless i am completely wrong) and i know i am derailing the thread, so last answer from me, especially since, like you said, it was not your main point.
                                                You were clearly using rape in a sexual context, and i am baffled we need to talk about this, it simply was not rape and using the word in such a context is trivializing one of the most disgusting acts you can do to a person.
                                                The first definition is proving my point, the others have no sexual connotation, you used it in a sexual context, and the only thing i argued is, despite the obviously more than questionable behavior of the Kamabakka people, the intent was not of sexual nature but was misguided nevertheless, but even if it has a sexual nature, it is not in any form rape, and distinguishing between rape, sexual assault and harassment is not trivial, regardless whether it´s in everyday usage or criminal context.
                                                Sorry if i look like a stickler and did not agree with a throwaway statement.

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                                                • electricmastro
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                                                  It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.

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                                                  • G
                                                    Ghidorah Guy @MiyamotoMusashi
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                                                    Let's be real, though: even if the intent wasn't there, it's often that the suggestion, the mere intimation of possible sexual ravishing ( be it rape or sexual harassment ) at the hands of characters like the newkamas is typically baked into sequences like these to fuel the humor, however light-hearted it's meant to come across. It's basically become a long-entrenched trope in anime/manga by this point.

                                                    Obviously, it almost never ( almost….any Karate Shoukoushi KOhinata Minoru readers in the house? ) goes down, likely never to happen, and said characters may otherwise be depicted positively to varying degrees, but the fact remains that the element of possible sexual assault typically serves as the basis for many a gag, however much it's played for laughs, highly unlikely to ever be followed upon, or boils down to gross misunderstanding on the "victim's" part.

                                                    I mean, any One-Punch readers here? You know what I'm talking about.

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                                                    @electricmastro:

                                                    It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.

                                                    https://i.ibb.co/51W1Fqx/Unknown.jpg

                                                    Possibly a slight change from the manga though, as the arm holding the sword that stabbed Ashura – presumably belonging to that of King, as implied -- seemed to be uncovered and bare-skinned, with the exception of a glove.

                                                    Maybe it's me reading too much into things, but it's just one reason why I ( like some others ) wonder if King may actually turn out to be a woman...albeit a very masculine one, possibly even one who identifies as a man; and a more glaringly blatant reverse-take on Kiku's gender identity, as say opposed to Yamato ( for the moment, maybe ). For better for worse.

                                                    Wouldn't be the first or the last, for anyone worried about this prospect, ie villains being the sole representatives; I firmly believe Oda isn't done tackling the topic of gender...again, for better or worse, depending on one's personal views. Be prepared for the possible reveal of characters who possess the hearts of both a "maiden" and a "prince/knight" or what have you.

                                                    We still haven't learned what Crocodile's secret is, after all. And I've a sneaking suspicion Oda's took inspiration from another major iconic gender-bending character to craft this ( admittedly, yet unrevealed ) facet to Sir C's history and character.

                                                    Anyways, brace yourselves, this discussion likely isn't going to die down any time soon…if at all.

                                                    Edit:

                                                    Btw, just to clarify with respect to the King bit, I understand it may seem like an illogical leap to somehow connect bare skin with King being a woman. For it's worth, it's just speculation built on some calculated, and in this case subjective, hunches. Straight up, the arm in question just gives this "effeminate" vibe to me, going off Oda's usual art style. What's more, I feel it was intended to look as much as red herring of sorts, to lead us to suspect the similarly gloved, bare-armed Shinobu present on scene of being the BIG TRAITOR -- a major lingering mystery at the time, with Shinobu far from being the only character Oda was slyly attempting to cast doubt upon imo.

                                                    Anyway, blah blah, long story short, just think there's a chance some small bit of misdirection may have been intended to sneakily foreshadow a major future reveal, hence the curious ( if seemingly very minor ) discrepancy here between the anime and manga depictions of in the respective sequences here.

                                                    Also a bit suspect how so many instances of characters being silhouetted in the manga are translating to full-blown, unobstructed reveals in the anime too. Again, could be nothing...but maybe, just maybe, Oda passed along some minor "suggestions" to hide some things.

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                                                    • electricmastro
                                                      electricmastro
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                                                      Judge and Queen are also both 56, so seeing as how Vegapunk worked with them on MADS presumably as peers, he might be around the same age as them.

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                                                      • Captain M
                                                        Captain M
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                                                        The okama discussion is a tough one and I can definitely understand people falling on either side of it.

                                                        On one hand, major characters like Bentham and Ivan are actual people who are accepted by the hero and portrayed likeably as good guys. On the other, the unnamed background okama basically all fall into uncomfortable "predatory gay" stereotypes that seem to be common in Japanese works.

                                                        On one hand, the character designs feel very, very much like caricature, and not necessarily kind ones. On the other, Oda apparently based a lot of the designs off real Japanese drag performers, and I'm not equipped to talk on the accuracy of those depictions or how that foreign community feels about it. Also most One Piece character designs are highly exaggerated or stylised caricatures.

                                                        On one hand, Bentham was introduced in like 2001, giving representation not to a queer sexuality but a queer gender identity long before that was something that was commonly done. And that's given Oda time to learn and grow enough to write Kiku, while other series like One Punch Man are still stuck in their predatory Puri Puri Prisoner phase. But on the other hand, twenty-year-old depictions of queer characters, and even ten-year-old depictions, rarely age gracefully, and One Piece being on one continuity for so long means those aged depictions remain permanently a part of its world, even after the real world has changed its thinking.

                                                        And there's the debate on the term okama as a whole. I've heard people say it's a slur. I've heard them say it's just a colloquial term. I've heard it was a slur but now it's reclaimed. I've heard it was okay when it was first used but would be considered kinda rude today. It seems like it's been mostly supplanted by "newkama" in the series' vocabulary by now, so maybe there's something in that, but I obviously don't have the perspective to say.

                                                        I don't see the two frameworks of judging a work relative to the time and culture it was produced in and judging it as if it were released to to the critic's own culture in the modern day as mutually exclusive. You can hold in your head both that the series passes (or at least made a good-faith attempt) by one metric, but has aged or translated poorly by the other. It's every reader's own business where they come down on issues of depiction, what they're willing to put up with, or what meta factors could justify a clumsy portrayal of a sensitive topic in their mind. But it's not black and white. One Piece has had failures in representation, but they don't taint it entirely (but are totally fair for some readers to see as a deal-breaker), and it also has successes, but they don't exonerate the failures or raise it above criticism.

                                                        tldr depiction is a complicated and often subjective topic that only gets harder when being judged from across different time periods and cultures

                                                        Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

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                                                        • Zik
                                                          Zik @Rundas
                                                          @Rundas last edited by
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                                                          @Rundas:

                                                          So…sometimes a thread can derail a bit, but don't you think it would be better to create a own discussion thread for this whole Yamatos gender debate?

                                                          And you mean just stick to the okama/Sanji rape debate?

                                                          Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                          Last.fm

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                                                            Thatfruitydude
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                                                            I am sorry for being late and forgive me for not wanting to read through 10 pages of Yamato debate but did we actually get all the information for the packs yet?

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                                                            • electricmastro
                                                              electricmastro
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                                                              King, Yamato, Ulti, and Page One in previous designs:

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                                                                Thatfruitydude
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                                                                If King doesn’t take off his mask and look like that now I’m going to be so disappointed lol. That looks like a badass design. Doesn’t scream Moon people to me though

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                                                                • Zik
                                                                  Zik @electricmastro
                                                                  @electricmastro last edited by
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                                                                  @electricmastro:

                                                                  It seems that nothing has changed with King between him being 27 years old and 47 years old, except that his clothing style was slightly different.

                                                                  https://i.ibb.co/51W1Fqx/Unknown.jpg

                                                                  Hard to tell when he's clad head to toe in black leather.

                                                                  Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                  Last.fm

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                                                                  • R
                                                                    Rundas @Zik
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                                                                    @Zik:

                                                                    And you mean just stick to the okama/Sanji rape debate?

                                                                    Nope, I don't even know how the discussion shifted from Yamato to the whole rape discussion. I just noticed that the last ten pages or so were only about the gender debate, which is important in my opinion, but the matter won't resolve until the end of the arc. Like Robby said the discussion is already appearing in different threads, but here it was derailing into this okama/rape discussion, which I found was too much and should stop anyway.

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                                                                      Ghidorah Guy
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                                                                      Certainly lends weight to theories that King's race basically represent fallen angels. We'll see.

                                                                      Would be interesting if the Promethean figure of the One Piece world who gave humanity the gift of fire was some devilish/demonic-looking chap.

                                                                      –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                      @Thatfruitydude:

                                                                      If King doesn’t take off his mask and look like that now I’m going to be so disappointed lol. That looks like a badass design. Doesn’t scream Moon people to me though

                                                                      Who knows? Maybe the Moon people as a whole include more than just the three varieties seen thus far. It was strongly hinted that One Piece Earth used to be orbited by 6 moons; maybe there were 3 other Moon tribes who looked like fallen angels or whatever, made their own way down to Earth.

                                                                      Though it still does beg the question: why would King's particular race receive such a seemingly all-encompassing denomination as "Lunarians?" It's a given that some select parties in the world are already familiar with Sky Islanders, Big Mom included, so why the distinction? What makes them moon-ier?

                                                                      Unless it's something akin to say the naming conventions of Wano's ruling families, with each moon tribe originally possessing its own specific moon-related name, e.g. Lunarians, Selenites, Artermisians, Tsukiyomis, Mooninites, whatevs.

                                                                      Rampant speculation is fun.

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                                                                      • electricmastro
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                                                                        If King's race is originally from the moon, then maybe that may set-up for future basis for Enel to came back, whatever may happen there.

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                                                                        • N
                                                                          Namekuseijin
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                                                                          Did Redon or someone else already posted scans of the new VC?
                                                                          Tried to look for it but got lost on the gender war '-'

                                                                          @LawSamuka:

                                                                          It does have EX cards, but it appears that people are more engaged to discuss manga character gender

                                                                          Sem predão, ban eterno '-'

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                                                                          • redon
                                                                            redon
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                                                                            @Namekuseijin
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                                                                            @Namekuseijin:

                                                                            Did Redon or someone else already posted scans of the new VC?

                                                                            I will post my pictures tomorrow. I get Booster Packs today but I can't do the pictures until tomorrow 😊

                                                                            Twitter: https://twitter.com/Mugiwara_23

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                                                                            • E
                                                                              ea77
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                                                                              https://imgur.com/a/z8cGOes

                                                                              https://imgur.com/a/q8gW2fM

                                                                              So, you can find some scans here if you want.

                                                                              #Vergoshotfirst #Doflaisapunk

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                                                                              • Moriah
                                                                                Moriah @ea77
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                                                                                @ea77:

                                                                                https://imgur.com/a/z8cGOes

                                                                                https://imgur.com/a/q8gW2fM

                                                                                So, you can find some scans here if you want.

                                                                                Shoot, I was hoping that some of the Foxy Pirates' main participants in the Davy Back Fight would get cards, at least to confirm who joined the crew naturally and who was won in past Davy Back Fight competitions.

                                                                                All of the Beasts Pirates' and Orochi have either their beast forms, hybrid forms, or both for the Zoan Devil Fruit they ate labeled on the front of their cards, but that's not the case for past characters who ate Zoan DFs like Dalton, Miss Merry Christmas, the top three fighters of CP9, Sengoku, etc.. Granted they might appear in the How to laugh, The first person, or tone sections or on the back of their cards for some of the scenes they use for their important moments in the series, but that's not the same as what their doing for Kaido, the All-Stars, the Tobiroppo, and Orochi.

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                                                                                • W
                                                                                  weixiaobao @JulieYBM
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                                                                                  @JulieYBM:

                                                                                  The Okama scream stereotypes and actively make me sick to look at and think about. They also prove that Oda has definitely just…not researched us before. One can't go on trans Twitter or Reddit and seeing a slew of hot trans women. 

                                                                                  Anyway, yeah, I always read them as being coded or written as outright rapists...which is also extremely offensive. Just like Oda needing to constantly point out that "Kiku is/was a man!" Like...listen. Stop. I don't need a cis guy writing a trans tragedy story. At all.

                                                                                  I do, since you don't. Both our opinions cancelled each other else. When you do finished your appropriated story, perfectly tailored to your sensitivity. Please do notify me, so I don't buy it. I bet you that you read more One Piece than books by trans author anyway. I bet you contribute zero financially to the works that perfectly curtailed to your sensitivity. Also nothing about you scream to me that I want to read more about. Also as an actual rape victim, the first definition that you think off and not these blurry definition. Please, stop. I don't need someone shallow like you writing stuffs on a thread where I want to read about One Piece. Go find an appropriate thread to do so.

                                                                                  Go and write those books that you want to read. I am assure you that with your persuasiveness and your selling abilities. Ain't no one wanna read them.

                                                                                  You can bash Oda all you want. But the guy did contribute real impact in my life. My anger, my hatred, my depression. Years of abuse. See me as a strawhats. You have not see the pit of hell yet. If Yamato is what trigger you.

                                                                                  You folks really ruined my night. I didn't expect to READ ABOUT GODDAM RAPE in a goddam thread about Vivre card. If you wanna cry, go cry on reddit or something. I don't have enough money for therapist to deal with this c***

                                                                                  IF YOU FOLKS WANT TO SEE REAL MEDICAL TRIGGER look like. That is me right now.

                                                                                  Please tell me what page I need to go through to read the vivre card stuffs. Because I am strolling through and I am see more discussing on "rape." Jesus. I didn't expect it tonight.
                                                                                  If I was mentally more aware. Maybe I wouldn't exp this sort of anger right now. Hopefully I can sleep tonight with this much heighten of an emotion.

                                                                                  You know what I am glad Oda triggered you lot. Because you folks sure as hell triggering me. And it ain't funny.

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                                                                                  • electricmastro
                                                                                    electricmastro @Moriah
                                                                                    @Moriah last edited by
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                                                                                    @Moriah:

                                                                                    Shoot, I was hoping that some of the Foxy Pirates' main participants in the Davy Back Fight would get cards, at least to confirm who joined the crew naturally and who was won in past Davy Back Fight competitions.

                                                                                    I have gotten the suspicion that Foxy is somehow connected to King Ham Burger from Ballywood Kingdom, not only looking similar, but also Hamburg sharing a similar name, as well as Porche having the name of a car like Jeep and Furrari.

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                                                                                    • firelord111
                                                                                      firelord111
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                                                                                      Is there going to be a ryuma viver card in future i sure hope so, but then i am not sure if i will like ryuma if it is not monsters ryuma which is fusion of luffy and zoro.

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                                                                                      • redon
                                                                                        redon
                                                                                        Envoy
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                                                                                        @redon last edited by
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                                                                                        redon
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                                                                                        Got my copies of new One Piece Vivre Card Booster Packs!!!

                                                                                        Like last time, here you have a link with pictures of all Vivre Card files from new Booster Packs that I took today. Please give credits if you publish in other sites 😄

                                                                                        One Piece: Vivre Card - Booster Pack 23

                                                                                        https://www.sendspace.com/file/mj69du

                                                                                        One Piece: Vivre Card - Booster Pack 24

                                                                                        https://www.sendspace.com/file/3x2jph

                                                                                        You can see some files here as example 😉

                                                                                        !







                                                                                        Twitter: https://twitter.com/Mugiwara_23

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                                                                                        • Captain M
                                                                                          Captain M
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                                                                                          Awesome work, thanks Redon!

                                                                                          Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

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                                                                                          • RoboBlue
                                                                                            RoboBlue
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                                                                                            Thanks Redon!

                                                                                            I can't wait to read that one about the ninjas.

                                                                                            https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/913949065446850590/964418994973073479/RPReplay_Final1650004792.mov

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                                                                                            • N
                                                                                              Newgate
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                                                                                              Thanks redon as usual!

                                                                                              Do we have bounty revelations for Speed, Holdem and the numbers? would be interesting to evaluate the difference between headliners and F6.

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                                                                                                Namekuseijin
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                                                                                                16 chars of Thanks Redon!

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                                                                                                • electricmastro
                                                                                                  electricmastro @Newgate
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                                                                                                  @Newgate:

                                                                                                  Thanks redon as usual!

                                                                                                  Do we have bounty revelations for Speed, Holdem and the numbers? would be interesting to evaluate the difference between headliners and F6.

                                                                                                  Doesn't seem to be the case, though seeing as how Page One is at 290 million and of a higher position than Speed, it's possible that Speed's bounty might end up being below 300 million.

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                                                                                                  • rayleigh92
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                                                                                                    Judging by the fact both Speed and Holdem are born in Wano, I think they just have no bounty. I can see them being Wano kids grown by Beasts Pirates as Kaido maybe saw some potential in them, or even Orochi made a lot of very young kids eat SMILE and the ones who unlocked abilities have been coercively recruited. Time passed and both of them remember near to nothing about their Wano origins.

                                                                                                    Holdem is 30yo, which makes him just a kid when Orochi and Kaido made their coup d'éte and Speed wasn't even born by then. It's highly possible imho both of them never left Wano, so no bounties.

                                                                                                    The truly exception imho is Black Maria with her 480M bounty, but seeing as she's a top rank officer, I guess she had more chances to leave Wano a create havoc here and there.

                                                                                                    Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                                                                                                    • electricmastro
                                                                                                      electricmastro @rayleigh92
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                                                                                                      @rayleigh92:

                                                                                                      Judging by the fact both Speed and Holdem are born in Wano, I think they just have no bounty. I can see them being Wano kids grown by Beasts Pirates as Kaido maybe saw some potential in them, or even Orochi made a lot of very young kids eat SMILE and the ones who unlocked abilities have been coercively recruited. Time passed and both of them remember near to nothing about their Wano origins.

                                                                                                      Holdem is 30yo, which makes him just a kid when Orochi and Kaido made their coup d'éte and Speed wasn't even born by then. It's highly possible imho both of them never left Wano, so no bounties.

                                                                                                      The truly exception imho is Black Maria with her 480M bounty, but seeing as she's a top rank officer, I guess she had more chances to leave Wano a create havoc here and there.

                                                                                                      Going by Kaido and the other officers going out of Wano four years ago, it seems that Speed and the others haven't ventured out of Wano enough to get bounties, whereas Ulti and the others have.

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                                                                                                        Newgate @electricmastro
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