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    Vivre Card: One Piece Visual Dictionary

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    • starlalilymoon
      starlalilymoon
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      I'm happy about the confirmation about Yamato's gender! I always saw her as female. She is a tomboy that acts "masculine", but doesn't make her any less of a woman. I'm also transgender male to female and I never once saw Yamato as male. She never presented herself as a man, but as Oden, which is nothing to do about gender identity, but more so as "cosplaying" as the person she looks up to the most.

      Yes, Rose of Versailles is one of the inspirations for the character, but if I recall the main character in that manga is female but raised as a boy. That isn't being a man, she was pretending to be one in terms of how she was raised. That to me is a huge misconception.

      It's okay to be female and a tomboy, and there is nothing wrong with that. Regardless, Yamato is one of my favorite characters in Wano! And honestly, hope this gender debate can finally end. And in the end none of it all matters because Yamato is Yamato!

      As for Vivre Cards making mistakes, those are all pretty minor. A few number mistakes here and there, that doesn't mean that Vivre Card for Yamato is wrong. I mean gender is a big thing compared to let's say getting an age of a character wrong with Hitetsu. Sometimes small mistakes happen, but it doesn't mean that other stuff will change like with Yamato. I just wanted to address that, as that should not be used as something to debunk what was said specifically for the Yamato card. That's just my two cents! :happy:

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      • goty
        goty @Daz
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        @Daz:

        The whole Yamato discourse continues to baffle me. As a potentially unimformed non-LGBT person I will just say that even if Yamato is "just" a man by default because Oden was a man, then that still means that Yamato has an attitude towards gender which…means he will declare himself a man if it suits him, without thinking twice of it. Thats not a universal attitude to have -like as a cis het man I wouldn't go "I admire this woman so much I want to emulate her, and since she is a woman I guess I'm also a woman now". And its not like Yamato is "being Oden" purely as a "performance". Its not a "cosplay" or a Kanjuro style "act" because such things are donned with awareness and intent of its artificial, temporary nature. Yamato isn't emulating Oden as a lark, it is fully his identity, 24/7. Which includes...thinking of himself as a man.

        Its not comparable to an actor in a play, because Yamato is emulating Oden purely for his own benefit, not for that of an audience. I guess my stance is, even if Yamato turns out to change his stance of what gender he presents as, just because his stance is fluid I see no reason not accept what his current perspective may be.

        That logic would make perfect sense, if we were talking about a real person and not a fictional character from a comic primarily aimed at boys.
        I mean, we don't even know if Oda thought that far when he came up with the concept of Yamato. Maybe he just thought an attractive female playing "Oden" because she was deeply influenced by him would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story.

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        • F
          FolhaS @Zhenja
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          @RoboBlue:

          If everyone uses male terms going forward then that would make it obvious that we should be using male pronouns.
          I say "male terms" because in Japanese pronouns aren't definitively gendered the same way they are in English, but there are plenty of other words that provide gender context (like son and princess).

          That's a weird goalpost to me. Because in story, everyone is already using male pronouns.
          It feels like you're treating the character as a child, claming they're astronauts and that they go to the moon every night, and every "outside source" (editors, advertisements, etc) as a parent, nodding a No in the background saying "Oh, she just has a lot of imagination".
          But the character is a capable and full grown adult making their decisions.

          @Zhenja:

          Yes, I would.
          But if that happens it would mean the narrator was wrong… or lied on purpose. How likely would that be…

          You mean like when the narrator introduced Momo as Kinnemon's son?
          A different case, for sure, but such thing as the narrator "lying" or purposely telling readers to look the other way has already happen in this series.

          At this point, after months and moths of discussing this topic, I still find the pronoun/noun issue the weirdest of all, because ignoring the complex feelings and motivations for someone to "come out" as trans or non-binary, we simply have a person/character asking to be called by this name/pronoun, which they decided for themselves rather than stick with the one they were born.
          I never saw someone on this forum, or anywhere else, fighting to call Sanji by his Vinsmoke name. It's the name he was born with, but he tossed it aside and took up the Black Leg epiteph from his dad Red Leg Zeff. Most people here actually seemed unhappy with Sanji using the raid suit, since that's something that came from his mostly awful biological family, or that there is now a chance that his genes are awakening and it turns out that he actually has more from Judge that both Sanji and readers would like.
          When Sanji rejects his birth name and biology, claiming such actions proudly, loud and clear, he gets support, when Yamato rejects his birth pronoun he gets met with Oh it's just a phase, honey.

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          • Daz
            Daz
            Warlord Mod
            @goty
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            @goty:

            That logic would make perfect sense, if we were talking about a real person and not a fictional character from a comic primarily aimed at boys.
            I mean, we don't even know if Oda thought that far when he came up with the concept of Yamato.

            …but what exactly does it matter that Yamato is a fictional character? Theres plenty of fictional characters who identify by another gender than the societal default, would you just refer to any such character by their biological sex because they're all fictional creations? If not, how exactly do you define "proper" context of "intended target audience" or "somehow quantifiable author intent or the absence thereof" and whatnot to determine when to/not to refer a character by the opposite of what they identify as? Why not just go with what the character claims to be, when this is presented as genuine?

            @goty:

            Maybe he just thought an attractive female playing "Oden" because she was deeply influenced by him would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story.

            Why even with the hypothetical? Leaving aside any meta-aware reasons revolving around OPs target audience and whatnot, what reasons have the actual text of the story given to support the reading that Yamato is being Oden because "it would be cool, funny or make for an interesting story"? And in the absence of such framing, why not just go with what Yamato wants?

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            • starlalilymoon
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              By the way, where can you buy the Vivre Cards? I wouldn't mind collecting all of them and supporting Oda at the same time. I assume there is no official English version of them, but just the Japanese, but I'm fine with that, if that is the case.

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              • puffing.cinema
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                Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

                More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)

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                • ScotchInformer
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                  • rayleigh92
                    rayleigh92 @ScotchInformer
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                    @puffing.cinema:

                    Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

                    More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)

                    I am still so astonished by Oda anticipating reality (or at least my reality, as I heard "genderfluid" first only years after Ivankov's debut).

                    Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                    • Captain M
                      Captain M @starlalilymoon
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                      @puffing.cinema:

                      Hey guys just a reminder that non-binary people can be read as trans too, and Yamato up until now (being a cis woman that prefers male pronouns) still falls under that category.

                      More gender news: Morley was confirmed as genderfluid (or in the manga terminology, newkama)

                      Good and important point to make.

                      Even if what he is in Japanese has no direct and clear English equivalent, it's obvious that Yamato is still strongly, aggressively gender non-conforming in any language. That's a fact, no matter how much we go in circles about how Oda would have represented it if he was writing in a language with gendered third person pronouns and a greater distinction between sex and gender, or what would be most in-character for Yamato to choose for himself if he were to interact with that kind of language and culture. I'm coming to accept that there'll never be a perfect canon answer because the debate simply doesn't translate, but it remains a hard fact of the matter that Yamato has willingly and enthusiastically taken on a whole lot of masculinity, but evidently without also rejecting his femininity, body or birthname. That's a complicated thing to interpret in one language, let alone translate to another one!

                      @starlalilymoon:

                      By the way, where can you buy the Vivre Cards? I wouldn't mind collecting all of them and supporting Oda at the same time. I assume there is no official English version of them, but just the Japanese, but I'm fine with that, if that is the case.

                      I usually get mine and whatever other Japanese things I need from here: https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/

                      They don't mark them up from the Japanese shelf price like some other places selling Japan-exclusive anime stuff internationally tend to, and shipping rates are usually reasonable (but can fluctuate based on how locked down the world is at the time of ordering). That might also vary depending on where in the world you are, but for Australia, they're pretty good.

                      Vivre Card Archive One Piece in One Piece Covers Compilation

                      starlalilymoon 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • starlalilymoon
                        starlalilymoon @Captain M
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                        @Captain:

                        I usually get mine and whatever other Japanese things I need from here: https://www.cdjapan.co.jp/

                        They don't mark them up from the Japanese shelf price like some other places selling Japan-exclusive anime stuff internationally tend to, and shipping rates are usually reasonable (but can fluctuate based on how locked down the world is at the time of ordering). That might also vary depending on where in the world you are, but for Australia, they're pretty good.

                        Awesome! Thank you so much! I made sure to bookmark the site for the future! =^.^=

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                        • Zhenja
                          Zhenja @FolhaS
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                          @FolhaS:

                          You mean like when the narrator introduced Momo as Kinnemon's son?
                          A different case, for sure, but such thing as the narrator "lying" or purposely telling readers to look the other way has already happen in this series.

                          Oh yeah, right, totally forgot about that. But as you said a different case, it made sense to lie at that point to hide the secret.
                          In Yamato's case, it doesn't make any sense. See my posts on the previous page.

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                          • StrawHatJedi
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                            I stand by it being a performance / playing a role. Yamato also said he is Oden's father. When she did not in act impregnate Amatsuki Toki 29 years ago.

                            But of course I people are free to feel differently and I understand that. But it's my genuine reading of Oda's intent with Yamato.

                            Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                            "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                            • S
                              stefan999
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                              For me Yamato is a strange character. I rather not to use any pronouns concerning that person because, before Yamato met Oden there were no doubt about gender. For me being Oden i more like a quirk of that character.

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                              • LightningAce
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                                Have any of the other cards been fully translated yet? I'm curious what information on the flying 6, numbers, few of the headliners that have been said beyond their height and bounties.

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                                • King Cannon
                                  King Cannon
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                                  Oh nice, they've finally named the King of Lvneel and the old God of Skypiea.

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                                  • rayleigh92
                                    rayleigh92 @King Cannon
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                                    @King:

                                    Oh nice, they've finally named the King of Lvneel and the old God of Skypiea.

                                    Wasn't him the old God Army commander? Maybe cause he always resembled Yama to me, but I was sure up until now ahahah

                                    Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                                    • JulieYBM
                                      JulieYBM @stefan999
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                                      @stefan999:

                                      For me Yamato is a strange character. I rather not to use any pronouns concerning that person because, before Yamato met Oden there were no doubt about gender. For me being Oden i more like a quirk of that character.

                                      Why is there 'no doubt'? Why are we to buy into Oda being a reliable narrator on this aspect so that there is 'no doubt' that Yamato 'used to be a woman'?

                                      She/Her

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                                      • StrawHatJedi
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                                        Not commenting in regard to the reason the question was asked, but I do think One Piece is being told from the perspective of an omniscient narrator. Oda hasn't really used unreliable narration as a storytelling device.

                                        But we're bordering on the question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation.

                                        Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                        "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                        • .access timeco.
                                          .access timeco. @StrawHatJedi
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                                          • JulieYBM
                                            JulieYBM @StrawHatJedi
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                                            @Vongola_Boss_XI:

                                            Not commenting in regard to the reason the question was asked, but I do think One Piece is being told from the perspective of an omniscient narrator. Oda hasn't really used unreliable narration as a storytelling device.

                                            But we're bordering on the question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation.

                                            I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.

                                            She/Her

                                            Don't like the gender you were assigned at birth? Change it!

                                            Want to be a girl? Click here!

                                            What's gender dysphoria, you ask? Click here to find out!

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                                            • sgamer82
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                                              Coming in late on this. I heard of Yamato's Vivre Card elsewhere but it hasn't really changed my own stance on the matter. To me, the only thing that's never been entirely clear is if Yamato is identifying as a man, or identifying as Oden, who is a man. For pronoun purposes it doesn't actually matter since, either way, Yamato is identifying as male and I see no reason to do otherwise until Yamato does. Far as I'm concerned, the Vivre Card is a secondary source that, in this instance, is at odds with the primary source, the actual manga, and in such cases I give priority to the primary source.

                                              Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.

                                              Statler: No you haven't.

                                              Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!

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                                              • goty
                                                goty @Daz
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                                                @Daz:

                                                …but what exactly does it matter that Yamato is a fictional character? Theres plenty of fictional characters who identify by another gender than the societal default, would you just refer to any such character by their biological sex because they're all fictional creations?

                                                I was talking about your analogy that, as a cis, heterossexual person, you would never think of impersonate a woman just because you admire her. Yes, that's a valid real-life argument that I don't think necessarily holds true for a fictional character in a kids manga, as I doubt that was a matter that even crossed Oda's mind when he came up with Yamato.
                                                Heck, in real life she could probably be diagnosed with identity disorder, as she's not simply "copying" Oden. I think people are trying to apply a complexity to this situation that just isn't there.

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                                                • JulieYBM
                                                  JulieYBM @goty
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                                                  @goty:

                                                  I was talking about your analogy that, as a cis, heterossexual person, you would never think of impersonate a woman just because you admire her. Yes, that's a valid real-life argument that I don't think necessarily holds true for a fictional character in a kids manga, as I doubt that was a matter that even crossed Oda's mind when he came up with Yamato.
                                                  Heck, in real life she could probably be diagnosed with identity disorder, as she's not simply "copying" Oden. I think people are trying to apply a complexity to this situation that just isn't there.

                                                  Heterosexual trans people exist. The word you are looking for is 'cisgender', identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.

                                                  She/Her

                                                  Don't like the gender you were assigned at birth? Change it!

                                                  Want to be a girl? Click here!

                                                  What's gender dysphoria, you ask? Click here to find out!

                                                  goty 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                  • StrawHatJedi
                                                    StrawHatJedi @JulieYBM
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                                                    @JulieYBM:

                                                    I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.

                                                    That's where I say it borders on a question of authorial intent vs. subjective reader interpretation. I'm really just trying to look at what Oda's intending and not intending to communicate with Yamao and of course every reader is going to have their own subjective interpretation of the text and understanding of the character.

                                                    I just don't get the impression Oda intended to make being male part of Yamato's gender identity. I don't even think it's quite accurate to say Yamato 'identifies' as Kozuki Oden.

                                                    I think the context of the word 'identify' is to say it's a core part of who you are. It's an intrinsic part of your self. And I don't get the impression that being male or being Oden is part of Yamato's identity. Rather, it seems like something she willfully adapts - like a part in a play. But she still seems to differentiate these traits from her true inner-self. Yamato's also (obviously) not a real person, so there's also a symbolic element to her character (a player in a multi-act kabuki play) which don't apply to real people the same way as to characters within a narrative.

                                                    Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                                    "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                                    • andre
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                                                      I just think it's cool that Yamato finally gets a Vivre card after being the one to introduce them to Ace.

                                                      Check out my podcast for conversations about Greatness in anime, sports, music, and whatever else we can think of.

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                                                      • rayleigh92
                                                        rayleigh92 @andre
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                                                        @andre:

                                                        I just think it's cool that Yamato finally gets a Vivre card after being the one to introduce them to Ace.

                                                        It's so funny Yamato literally made the first Vivre Card which introduced us to the concept. Figuring he made the VC, had given to Ace, Ace then two years later gave it to Luffy, which only in Thriller Bark gets explained by Lola what it means and later became the actual motor behind the whole Impel Down-Marineford saga. This is some astonishing level of worldbuilding. It's like something of Yamato has always been with Luffy since Arabasta up to the end of first half.

                                                        Originally Posted by rayleigh92

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                                                        • G
                                                          Ghidorah Guy @FolhaS
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                                                          @FolhaS:

                                                          That's a weird goalpost to me. Because in story, everyone is already using male pronouns.
                                                          It feels like you're treating the character as a child, claming they're astronauts and that they go to the moon every night, and every "outside source" (editors, advertisements, etc) as a parent, nodding a No in the background saying "Oh, she just has a lot of imagination".
                                                          But the character is a capable and full grown adult making their decisions.

                                                          Yet, here's the thing: we can't ignore that Yamato is a One Piece character. Considering the setting, where fantastical humor, exaggeration, and allegory abound, one cannot completely discount the possibility that this will prove to be the case, on some level at least. Any attempt to view the One Piece world and characters through a realworld lens without the proper context is an exercise in futility. Hell, if we're to apply strict realistic standards to the One Piece universe, just think how many of these characters would be deemed guilty of child abuse, sexual harassment, etc? It's just not that cut and dry.

                                                          As has been noted multiple times, it's only further muddied by the fact that Oda has potentially directly tied Yamato's gender to her adoption of Oden's identity, thereby possibly framing her choice as mere byproduct of her decision; more so a technicality than a thoroughly informed personal decision independent of their desire to become Oden. One could even interpret it as Oda seemingly tying the topic of gender to the subject and heavily overarching theme of roleplay that's currently at play; a very controversial, risky narrative route to explore, to be sure, if such truly is the case, particularly as it pertains to Western audiences.

                                                          Now, is that truly Oda's intent? Who can say for sure? Like I said, it's just one possibility, as there's certainly more straightforward, clear-cut avenues Oda could've taken, as many would agree at this point. As others have mentioned, methinks it's best to let things play and and wait n see how Yamato's story develops before rushing in to "claim" Yamato as validation of one viewpoint or another. There's no telling with any sure certainty what Oda intended or what he's thinking so far as Yamato's character is concerned. It can go several different ways. And yes, one such possible scenario is that Yamato will go back to identifying as female upon realizing their admiration for Oden doesn't have to extend to very literal emulation. In terms of fictional characters, I think anyone who's read/watched enough manga/anime is familiar with the trope of a "masculine" biological woman eventually "re-embracing" their womanhood yadda yadda….it's an extremely cringy alternative, especially in light of the controversy, but it's not an impossibility, however remote. Like I said, best to temper one's expectations.

                                                          That said, that isn't what I personally see happening, or prefer to happen, mind you. Again, I can't guarantee anything and this is just my own speculation, nothing more, but if Oda sticks to the thematic path he's exploring right now ( imo ), what we may actually see by the conclusion of Wano is Yamato reaching an epiphany of sorts, as outlined in that scenario I mentioned above...only instead of declaring themselves as either male or female, in true colorful One Piece wonky fashion they'll conclude that they are male and female; both and neither at the same time, a perfect harmonious balance.

                                                          Of course, I'm sure that wouldn't settle anything and only open up a whole new can of worms. But then, an open-ended resolution that invites heaps of debate and varying interpretations is exactly the kinda route I could see Oda taking. But again, no-one can say for sure right now.

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                                                            Anyone got the EX cards?

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                                                            • goty
                                                              goty @JulieYBM
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                                                              @JulieYBM:

                                                              Heterosexual trans people exist. The word you are looking for is 'cisgender', identifying with the gender you were assigned at birth.

                                                              Thanks. I actually knew that, but I was quoting the analogy that he had done when referring to himself, and I'm sure he used cis and heterosexual as independent aspects too.
                                                              But see, I doubt Oda has in mind the nuances and problematics of gender identity, sexuality and whatnot when dealing with Yamato. He's coming from a Japanese perspective (where the fandom apparently isn't delving into this matter nearly as much) and it's the same guy who said multiple times in the past that his primary concern when coming up with content is whether boys will find it cool.
                                                              That's why I think it's important to not forget the context where Yamato exists, but also the reason I think the character's resolution, whatever happens, risks being simplistic and leaving many people unsatisfied.

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                                                              • Zik
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                                                                It'll be funny when Yamato gets a second vivre card and certain things are added or changed especially given how much "discussion" this has generated.

                                                                Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                Last.fm

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                                                                • JulieYBM
                                                                  JulieYBM @goty
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                                                                  @goty:

                                                                  Thanks. I actually knew that, but I was quoting the analogy that he had done when referring to himself, and I'm sure he used cis and heterosexual as independent aspects too.
                                                                  But see, I doubt Oda has in mind the nuances and problematics of gender identity, sexuality and whatnot when dealing with Yamato. He's coming from a Japanese perspective (where the fandom apparently isn't delving into this matter nearly as much) and it's the same guy who said multiple times in the past that his primary concern when coming up with content is whether boys will find it cool.
                                                                  That's why I think it's important to not forget the context where Yamato exists, but also the reason I think the character's resolution, whatever happens, risks being simplistic and leaving many people unsatisfied.

                                                                  I've seen little proof that 'the Japanese fandom' (which is, like, how huge exactly?) does not have a section of people discussing it. The fandom is huge, queer people will inevitably be out there discussing it, people just aren't looking.

                                                                  Anyway, like, again…Oda has the internet right there. He can hire consultants. Wikipedia is right fucking there. Here is the Japanese page for the term transgender. They even use the fucking English word トランスジェンダー (toransujendaa)! Ignorance is not an excuse when there's already an entire fucking community in Japan with its own set of issues.

                                                                  She/Her

                                                                  Don't like the gender you were assigned at birth? Change it!

                                                                  Want to be a girl? Click here!

                                                                  What's gender dysphoria, you ask? Click here to find out!

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                                                                  • Zik
                                                                    Zik @JulieYBM
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                                                                    @JulieYBM:

                                                                    I am saying that Oda himself is not a reliable narrator because his understanding of gender and queerness (not to mention women or writing for children in general) is awful.

                                                                    If that's the take on it then its not about Oda being unreliable its just that his fictional story doesn't adhere to real world knowledge and facts so gender, queerness, women, writing for children, and anything else can be whatever he wants it to be.
                                                                    @Vongola_Boss_XI:

                                                                    I just don't get the impression Oda intended to make being male part of Yamato's gender identity. I don't even think it's quite accurate to say Yamato 'identifies' as Kozuki Oden.

                                                                    Identifying as a male and identifying as a man are two different things.

                                                                    Yamato identifying as a male has never been a thing so yeah you'd be right Oda didn't intend that.

                                                                    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                    Last.fm

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                                                                    • JulieYBM
                                                                      JulieYBM @Zik
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                                                                      @Zik:

                                                                      If that's the take on it then its not about Oda being unreliable its just that his fictional story doesn't adhere to real world knowledge and facts so gender, queerness, women, writing for children, and anything else can be whatever he wants it to be.

                                                                      Identifying as a male and identifying as a man are two different things.

                                                                      Yamato identifying as a male has never been a thing so yeah you'd be right Oda didn't intend that.

                                                                      When you write about these things you are writing about them for real people who live in the real world. Therefore, Oda's bullshit is not defensible. It is very much indefensible and must be criticized so that he can do better as someone with a platform that can negatively influence people's understanding of very important real life issues.

                                                                      She/Her

                                                                      Don't like the gender you were assigned at birth? Change it!

                                                                      Want to be a girl? Click here!

                                                                      What's gender dysphoria, you ask? Click here to find out!

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                                                                      • StrawHatJedi
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                                                                        I think the assumption here is that Oda is trying to write about gender. I don't think that's at all the case with Yamato. That's where I think it's important to see Yamato's Oden visage is knowingly performative. Zik is right above that there's a difference between identifying as a specific man and identifying as male. But I don't really think Yamato identifies as either. Yamato seems to knowingly differentiate between her core identity and 'being Kozuki Oden.' I'd say Yamato wanting to 'be Oden' is more like Luffy wanting to 'be the Pirate King.' It's an aspiration or ideal. She views 'Oden' as both a person and a collective set of ideas and values. But also, Oden's words were a ray of hope for her from the time she was a child. In that sense, her framing of being Oden is in a sense juvenile - in a whimsical sort of way. Like a child pretending to be their hero. Yamato is not childish and I'm not looking down on her adoration for Oden. But in the very first scene, when Luffy pushes back against her claim to 'be Oden', Yamato tells him that maybe Luffy's more Oden - which reminded me of kids taking turns pretending to be their favorite hero when playing make believe. Yamato even says maybe Luffy is 'more Oden' then she is - which is the reason I always believed she would eventually come to see Momonosuke in that light. The person who is the 'most Oden'. It's important for not only Yamato's character arc, but also Momonosuke's growth into a leader capable of taking on his father's extraordinary mantle.

                                                                        Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                                                        "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                                                        • G
                                                                          Ghidorah Guy @JulieYBM
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                                                                          @JulieYBM:

                                                                          I've seen little proof that 'the Japanese fandom' (which is, like, how huge exactly?) does not have a section of people discussing it. The fandom is huge, queer people will inevitably be out there discussing it, people just aren't looking.

                                                                          Don't think anyone's argued that nobody in all of Japan is discussing the topic at length; point being that it's likely not anywhere near as much of a hot button issue in Japan compared to Western circles due a number of cultural differences.

                                                                          For the same reason that Mr. Popo here from Dragonball never quite got the makeover seen here in most other parts of the world as he did at point here in North America. To put forth a very blatant example, anyway.

                                                                          Again, not putting forth cultural relativism as justification for exemption of criticism here…but it does add important context when readers are attempting to gauge what an author is attempting to convey and what may be informing their line of thought ( which can be tricky enough as is ).

                                                                          Anyway, like, again…Oda has the internet right there. He can hire consultants. Wikipedia is right fucking there. Here is the Japanese page for the term transgender. They even use the fucking English word トランスジェンダー (toransujendaa)! Ignorance is not an excuse when there's already an entire fucking community in Japan with its own set of issues.

                                                                          Well, the likely answer here is assuredly not one you want to hear, but here it is: because Oda is not inclined to do so. Like it or not, this is likely not the kind of story Oda is looking to tell, not the kind of manga he set out to make. Even though the One Piece narrative does touch on a wide range of weighty subject matter, let's be realistic here: this is still One Piece; it was never going to be the expansive, thorough deep-dive into the myriad complexities of the subjects at hand, explored in detailed length with the degree of seriousness such discourse merits. There's no way Oda/Shueisha were going to ever allocate the time or money to hire consultants of all things anytime Oda tackled the issue of gender, race, or any number of topics that deserve equal consideration. C'mon now. Shit, Oda can barely function as a healthy human being as is with the lifestyle he leads.

                                                                          Again, don't get it twisted: I'm not saying he's exempt from legit criticism being laid at his feet just because of his hectic schedule, One Piece's whimsical, light-hearted structure, blah blah blah…it doesn't make characters like the Newkamas ( or Mr. Popo ) any less cringey, if not outright offensive, depending on one's tolerance threshold. But again, context and perspective matter.

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                                                                          • Zik
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                                                                            @JulieYBM:

                                                                            When you write about these things you are writing about them for real people who live in the real world.

                                                                            That doesn't mean what you're writing about has to be a direct adaption from the real world though.

                                                                            Therefore, Oda's bullshit is not defensible. It is very much indefensible and must be criticized so that he can do better as someone with a platform that can negatively influence people's understanding of very important real life issues.

                                                                            What I'm saying is what you're assuming Oda is writing about, that he doesn't know enough about according to you may not be that. Which is why it isn't correct.

                                                                            When Oda brought up the Rose of Versailles manga/anime a year before Yamato was introduced he brought up Oscar who was a female character who was raised as a boy by her/his father. That isn't a trans character but as already said is a non-conforming gender character.

                                                                            So kinda seems at the least that was Oda's intention in creating Yamato and that hasn't changed with this vivre card info.

                                                                            Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                            Last.fm

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                                                                            • starlalilymoon
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                                                                              For me, fiction =/= real life. What you have in fiction can be vastly different from the real world as these things do not have to be the same at all. You can do all sorts of stuff in fiction that would be wrong in real life even. The point of fiction is seeing a different reality of your own, to challenge one's thoughts, to see a different perspective, etc.

                                                                              Like for example, I can't just go declare war on the government like in One Piece for example. But in their reality, it is possible plus they have crazy powers to be able to survive and not get arrested. I appreciate One Piece for what it is, I like it being goofy and at times touch heavy subjects within their world. Things can relate, but other times things don't relate. It's that simple.

                                                                              Lastly, I think Oda is doing a great job with Yamato! She's just a tomboy who wants to be her hero. That is cute and adorable in a way, even if it is a coping mechanism to escape Kaido. There is nothing wrong with this narrative and shouldn't be seen as offensive as it has nothing to do with being trans.

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                                                                                Ghidorah Guy @StrawHatJedi
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                                                                                @Vongola_Boss_XI:

                                                                                I think the assumption here is that Oda is trying to write about gender. I don't think that's at all the case with Yamato. That's where I think it's important to see Yamato's Oden visage is knowingly performative. Zik is right above that there's a difference between identifying as a specific man and identifying as male. But I don't really think Yamato identifies as either. Yamato seems to knowingly differentiate between her core identity and 'being Kozuki Oden.' I'd say Yamato wanting to 'be Oden' is more like Luffy wanting to 'be the Pirate King.' It's an aspiration or ideal. She views 'Oden' as both a person and a collective set of ideas and values. But also, Oden's words were a ray of hope for her from the time she was a child. In that sense, her framing of being Oden is in a sense juvenile - in a whimsical sort of way. Like a child pretending to be their hero. Yamato is not childish and I'm not looking down on her adoration for Oden. But in the very first scene, when Luffy pushes back against her claim to 'be Oden', Yamato tells him that maybe Luffy's more Oden - which reminded me of kids taking turns pretending to be their favorite hero when playing make believe. Yamato even says maybe Luffy is 'more Oden' then she is - which is the reason I always believed she would eventually come to see Momonosuke in that light. The person who is the 'most Oden'. It's important for not only Yamato's character arc, but also Momonosuke's growth into a leader capable of taking on his father's extraordinary mantle.

                                                                                See, that's the thing too, further adding a ton of wrinkles to what's already a very prickly discussion to begin with: while framing Yamato's gender identity as being the result of some childish flight of fancy understandably could certainly open the floodgates to a stream of potentially insidious insinuations and implications, depending on one's intent and biases….it need not necessarily go this route....though that may be asking a lot, from Wester audiences especially.

                                                                                When you get right down it, due to One Piece's very nature, one could equate the desires and actions of the entire cast with possessing the same degree of ostensible "childishness" that marks Yamato's decisions ( per this hypothetical scenario, at least ). At the end of the day, One Piece was always intended to be on the more light-hearted, goofier side of things ( serious subject matter and drama notwithstanding ), with ridiculous humor and embellished metaphor aplenty suffusing the narrative and tone. So one need not necessarily perceive this whole "roleplay" interpretation of Yamato's decision-making ( assuming this were even Oda's intention, simply for argument's sake ) as a direct attack or threat to the trans community; it's rather allegorical fluffy coating for deeper underlying philosophical questions and topics ( Oda's capacity to respectfully and adequately tackle complex subject matter notwithstanding ).

                                                                                Buuuuuuut…..yeah, asking a lot. Let's face it: unfortunately, it's undeniably very easy to see how this could entail a recipe for disaster, no matter how well-intentioned, if such were to truly end up being Oda's train of thought. And why I'd fully expect any member of the LGBT+ community to immediately recoil in disgust at the very suggestion of which. Even for a manga like One Piece and Japanese standards, this would encompass very precarious territory for Oda to tread, just for the possible implications alone, on a perceptual level. Which is why I'd hope ( and am expecting ) he'd have far more to say and explore on the matter beyond Yamato's gender identity boiling down to some gag, with further development to follow.

                                                                                Yes, that's taking into account Oda's flaws and drawbacks....better something than nothing, now that we've come this far, no? But again, temper those expectations....

                                                                                That said, I do think there's interesting discussion to be mined from simply exploring topics of gender in hand with that of roleplay, theater, and identity as a whole...keyword being exploring, not attempting to make any definitive statements colored by pre-existing judgements and/or preconceived viewpoints. But again, it'd just have to be extremely deftly handled. We'll just have to wait and see what Oda has in mind and how it unfolds.

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                                                                                • starlalilymoon
                                                                                  starlalilymoon @Ghidorah Guy
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                                                                                  @Ghidorah:

                                                                                  So one need not necessarily perceive this whole "roleplay" interpretation of Yamato's decision-making ( assuming this were even Oda's intention, simply for argument's sake ) as a direct attack or threat to the trans community; it's rather allegorical fluffy coating for deeper underlying philosophical questions and topics ( Oda's capacity to respectfully and adequately tackle complex subject matter notwithstanding

                                                                                  Well, as a trans person myself, I don't see the roleplay thing being an attack on the trans community. I never once got offended by the narrative and I seen Yamato as female even before the reveal on her vivre card. I really like Yamato as a character, and I'm happy for who the person she is in the story. She's just a tomboy cosplaying as her favorite person in the world. I do like the gags that come with the whole Oden stuff! So, yeah! :3

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                                                                                  • electricmastro
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                                                                                    Various ages that have been revealed:

                                                                                    Kaidou at age 36 (now 59); Queen at age 36 (now 56); Orochi at age 13 (now 54); Fukurukuju at age 41 (now 61); Sarutobi at age 25 (now 45)

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                                                                                    • Robby
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                                                                                      Based purely on how Oda has handled Kiku, I'd like to hope and believe he's matured and learned a bit more about the whole transgender hting in the twelve years since he put in the giant headed stubble monsters that were trying to rape Sanji. That was super cringe and bad and cancelled out anything good he did with Ivanokov and Bon Kurei.

                                                                                      He clearly has some ongoing interest with the concepts, we know he' even gone to okama bars, and is obviously a Rocky Horror fan, so its a question of how much more has he looked into it, has he actually talked to anyone about it, etc. So its mostly a question of, is he the same man at 46 as he was at 34? I'd hope not.

                                                                                      He and the staff have certainly gotten comments about Yamato though, so they ARE aware of how important this is to some fans, so that may end up being a factor too, whatever his initial intent was.

                                                                                      Like, there's still certain lines he can;t cross or go into in his genre of comic, so he's never going to do a serious deep dive on it, and may be partly responsbile for how he's presented it in a way that can be interpreted either as "girl with a silly gag" or "trans person." and leave it up to the individual.

                                                                                      Mostly at this point we need to see how much Yamato being a man is linked to being an Oden. That's the only real question.

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                                                                                      • MiyamotoMusashi
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                                                                                        Kamabakka did not want to rape Sanji, they wanted to liberate him.
                                                                                        It was in bad taste regardless considering how it was played off, and Sanji´s comments did not help (but Sanji has been a shitty character for 14 years at least at this point, so…), but it was not about rape, not even a implication, hence why Sanji was turned into a cosplayer in the cover story for a while. And i would claim it ties into Ivankov´s speech about being free from the constraints of "male and female" and just being a human in whatever way you personally see fit.

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                                                                                        • electricmastro
                                                                                          electricmastro @starlalilymoon
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                                                                                          @starlalilymoon:

                                                                                          For me, fiction =/= real life. What you have in fiction can be vastly different from the real world as these things do not have to be the same at all. You can do all sorts of stuff in fiction that would be wrong in real life even. The point of fiction is seeing a different reality of your own, to challenge one's thoughts, to see a different perspective, etc.

                                                                                          Like for example, I can't just go declare war on the government like in One Piece for example. But in their reality, it is possible plus they have crazy powers to be able to survive and not get arrested. I appreciate One Piece for what it is, I like it being goofy and at times touch heavy subjects within their world. Things can relate, but other times things don't relate. It's that simple.

                                                                                          Lastly, I think Oda is doing a great job with Yamato! She's just a tomboy who wants to be her hero. That is cute and adorable in a way, even if it is a coping mechanism to escape Kaido. There is nothing wrong with this narrative and shouldn't be seen as offensive as it has nothing to do with being trans.

                                                                                          Yeah, at that point, it becomes less about the manga, and more about attempting to address real-world issues in a way that makes me wonder how they reconcile with their lives, as if Oda is obligated to appeal to their world views because of how important trans people are and that Oda owes them more attention because of how important the topic is, even understanding that One Piece can be social in the first place. If they’re really gonna see Oda as a bad guy making an attack/betrayal on trans people for how he ultimately reveals that Yamato is female, and that Kaido and the others have clashing reasons for referring to Yamato as a he such as patriarchies, then at some point people they should probably take a step back and think about how to progress with their own lives further.

                                                                                          Another way to put it: If people have enough time to type out many long responses regarding the world’s situation regarding trans-people to many other posters on shonen manga forums on the internet, heavily emphasizing their feelings on the situation and how offended they may have felt, regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong, then it also makes me wonder how much they spend their time in attempting to help out or defend those they’re presumably attempting to help out or defend, not just on the internet, but also beyond that.

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                                                                                          • wolfwood
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                                                                                            @MiyamotoMusashi:

                                                                                            Kamabakka did not want to rape Sanji, they wanted to liberate him.
                                                                                            It was in bad taste regardless considering how it was played off, and Sanji´s comments did not help (but Sanji has been a shitty character for 14 years at least at this point, so…), but it was not about rape, not even a implication, hence why Sanji was turned into a cosplayer in the cover story for a while. And i would claim it ties into Ivankov´s speech about being free from the constraints of "male and female" and just being a human in whatever way you personally see fit.

                                                                                            Sure looked like sexual assault to me.

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                                                                                            • fana
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                                                                                              I don't really care about that debate regarding a fictional character's pronoun to be used in some random forums.

                                                                                              Just one thing that I see in some comments that I find weird is people dreading that Oda will have male characters (Sanji, Brook…) being attracted to Yamato or continue to draw the character in sexy feminine outfits (see future colorspreads once she's in the crew).

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                                                                                              • Syphin
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                                                                                                For me, I find Yamato to be an incredibly fascinating and exciting character. What I find truly compelling is how they handled themselves as a living being within the environment they were in. They should have been riddled with despair and engulfed in a darkness that all but crippled them. Yet, as the hopelessness of everything around them raged. something within Yamato anchored onto a constant that weathered them through the storm of despondency. The spirit of a Samurai touched Yamato and became the flame that would not only save Yamato from succumbing to the darkness that is the negativity of their mind but also enabled them to discover the strength they held within. In addition to being in awe, Yamato leaves me inspired.

                                                                                                Edit: As for the topic of gender, I don't have much of value to add but if I may, it has gotten me to think more about the concept/role/meaning of gender. It also got me recall the moment I was watching Revolutionary Girl Utena and thought while in awe at Utena - 'ah, where is my prince?" As a straight male, it should have been odd to have such thought but all my mind responded with was "what is wrong with the role of a prince not being affixed to gender?" To this day, Revolutionary Girl Utena remains one of my favourite series. At that time, I may not have dwelled much on the themes of gender in play within the story but this is where One Piece has come in. Yamato has inspired me to learn about such a concept, A concept I never knew contained such vast perspectives.

                                                                                                !

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                                                                                                • MiyamotoMusashi
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                                                                                                  @wolfwood:

                                                                                                  Sure looked like sexual assault to me.

                                                                                                  Seems like projection, unless we have a different definition of rape.

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                                                                                                  • firelord111
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                                                                                                    Well sanji in new kama kingdom thing is how often people are randomly sent into an island ? the inhabitants though that sanji deep down wanted to be here to be his true self but was too shy to do so.

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                                                                                                    • wolfwood
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                                                                                                      @MiyamotoMusashi:

                                                                                                      Seems like projection, unless we have a different definition of rape.

                                                                                                      Being chased, forcibly undressed and made to dress in fetish gear is certainly outside of my zone of acceptable behaviour. Try doing that to a woman and explain that i wasn't assaulting her i was just trying to "free her spirit". They were forcing themselves on an unwilling Sunkist and that is enough for it to feel rapey in my book

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                                                                                                      • pariston_hill
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                                                                                                        I'm gonna pretend I didn't read someone saying that can be multiple definitions of rape.

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