Who's going to eat the Mera Mera no Mi, 2018 edition!
I can see it go several ways and I'm not even sure which option I like best.
Who's going to eat the Mera Mera no Mi, 2018 edition!
I can see it go several ways and I'm not even sure which option I like best.
lol those pictures Jabra.
If I could have I would have voted for Usopp, Sunny and Franky getting a piece of the action!
Quoting myself from the 903 thread.
Sanji getting into the Raid Suit and using at as a full on power up seems super unlikely to me. Despite Luffy offering crew mates the Flame Flame fruit there was no way any of the Straw Hats were going to get it because of their established abilities and themes.
Sanji didn't learn how to fight with his hands or eyeballs after fighting with the Kamabaka Kingdom residents for 2 years. He didn't develop a way to fight as fast as a Fishman Underwater with his blue walk only to lose that ability 2 arcs later. He didn't develop his skywalk to later have a suit that could do it for him.
Sanji gets smashed through brick walls by Kurobi, gets his rib bones broken by Bon Clay, his shin fractured by Vergo, and then loses blood from a gun shot wound he barely even noticed. The suit would undoubtedly give him more protection from these things but Oda didn't establish how tough he is for 20ish years as a super(normal) human to give him fruit powers and Inspector Gadget gear.
The Raid Suit is in the Straw Hats hands and Sanji wants no part of it but you can bet Franky and Usopp will take notice. I don't think it was any secret that both Franky and Usopp were mentioned when the topic of using the Raid Suit came up. Sanji will be key in unlocking the thing but Franky and Usopp are going to dissect it, reverse engineer it and incorporate that stuff into their arsenal, maybe upgrade some of Nami's stuff too. That stuff fits them way more than it does Sanji.
I will add though that I can see Sanji using it as a one time thing but not as an all defining moment to save the day or defeat the villain. It reminds me of Luffy contemplating ways to defeat Katakuri, make him over use his Haki so it runs out? Nah. Get Jimbei in there with the water support? Uh uh. Make fun of/reveal his looks so much that he loses concentration? No way man. We were presented with all 3 of those solutions and each one would have been unsatisfying and probably felt unearned. I'm so glad Luffy went at him the way he did and I think many of us prefer it that way.
I suppose the Jimbei option isn't any different than Nami providing rain support against Cracker but well thats different just because!
Sanji getting a power up or defeating a major enemy with this probably won't feel earned at all. Not with how he's been fighting and growing since he appeared in the series.
Other option? Maybe Niji gave him a gag suit that does something stupid and/or somehow only aids Sanji in the kitchen.
Its genetically coded to Sanji, so I don't think anyone except Sanji will wear it.
Is going to be a regular tuxedo with the germa 66 logo on it.
He got a raid suit and his bounty now has the Vinsmoke name attached. Germa is gonna be back in the story at some point. He's gonna have to embrace it eventually.
Sorry, this thread is a little too pointless for me…
Like... who would win in a fight... Superman or [enter any batman villain here]
Pretty much the same odds as a poll like that
Sorry, this thread is a little too pointless for me…
Like... who would win in a fight... Superman or [enter any batman villain here]
Pretty much the same odds as a poll like that
If it's anything like the when we were introduced to the Flame Flame fruit in produce form this might be a great outlet for future arguments and debates.
Who gets the mera mera, a straw hat? a princess out for revenge? a blackbeard pirate? no it's the made up flashback kid who gets to survive the flashback and take Ace's place so Ace's fanboys don't stop buying the manga
I'm still mad
My vote goes to Usopp. The Reid Suit is basically everything he needs to complement his current abilities for the New World. And…
Yellow suit - Usopp's color. check
Gadget - Usopp's gimmick. check
Super Hero theme - Usopp's alter ego. check
If Oda's intention is indeed to give the Reid Suit to Sanji, I'd like to see how it'll go before opiniating, but for now I don't think he needs it to hold his ground strenght-wise and there're no thematic reasons for Sanji to wear it as we know he stands against his Vinsmoke roots. Even from a character design point of view, it would be weird.
Usopp will modify it so it will be 'less germa' and sanji will use it as last resort.
The chapter confirmed that only sanji can use it. And sanji will be the new sogeking, as in luffy and chopper will never know it's sanji.
Too bad oda didn't give sanji a top tier luxury trainer like how luffy and zoro got rayleigh and mihawk, then we would not have this long and boring '' sanji should not use it, but sanji should use it'' topic, because sanji would be strong enough not to need this type of power up.
I do not care for Sanji wearing it. I like his fighting style because it centers around his personality and cooking. He relies on kicking because his hands are too precious for cooking to risk and his fire attacks are loosely themed after spices/cooking heat and are created from friction/passion. All of that is consistent with Sanji's characterization in how he fights and acts. Getting a high-tech cyborg suit has nothing to do with what defines Sanji other than why he was picked on in his second flashback, and most of what these suits do is already redundant (advanced physical stats and leaping/air walking). The only thing it could add is some sort of elemental ability like Reiju's poison, Ichiji's sparks, Niji's electricity, and Yonji's winch fingers, but again, Sanji already has fire abilities.
Additionally, one of the most unique things about Sanji is his business suit attire. All of the Straw Hats change their attire for most arcs, sure, but that is what Sanji's design always keeps coming back to. A super sentai look just does not mesh with that. Hell, the raid suit design is the one thing I can concede works better for Usopp or even Franky than Sanji because those two like to act like goofy heroes who use technology, like to wear costumes, and do silly poses.
And I'm not even getting into how contradictory it feels for Sanji to wear a raid suit after his the second half of his character arc in Totland was proving his family's ideals of valuing royalty, strength, and technology over "peasant" duties like cooking wrong. In-universe, there is no reason for Sanji not to wear this suit other than pride. His crewmates in the latest chapter are right about science being valuable. But from a meta storytelling perspective, it only looks regressive. Why go from proving that you are already great without a tool your abusers use as a crutch to belittle you only to end up relying on that tool one or two arcs later? That is so contradictory.
I think I'm only fine with Sanji only using it once in a forced situation but striving to improve himself without it afterwards. It would make for nice gradual character development similar to Usopp building up bravery pre-timeskip.
As for Usopp, even if he could wear that, I wouldn't want him to. His charm is in being physically weak but resourceful in his wits and weapons. Giving him an Iron Man super sentai suit letting him punch enemies and fly all over the place, even if limited to a last resort power-up, feels inconsistent and uncreative. Usopp is the crew's sniper. Snipers specialize in long-range combat and deception, which has always been Usopp's forte. A raid suit only makes Usopp less special by allowing him to do what several of his teammates already specialize in. Franky's already the guy who is literally half-machine too, so giving a raid suit to Usopp also has a layer of redundancy for me. I would only be interested in Usopp potentially reverse-engineering the raid suit into weapons.
All in all, the only character I think could permanently incorporate the raid suit as a power-up is Franky (unless Usopp can reverse engineer the raid suit's capabilities into weapons). But he ALREADY relies on technological body armor to up his game. So… chuck it into the ocean. Or have one of the Blackbeard Pirates steal the raid suit and reprogram the genetic coding access so that Sanji's final fight can technically be the Vinsmoke fight lots of people wanted in Totland.
But I would love Sunny Shogun megazord mech happening for the final fight against San Juan Wolf though. I will bet my house on that. If the raid suit can somehow figure into that and finally make the Docking gag in the Oars fight during Thriller Bark a reality, that would be magical.
!
! Credits to Arlong Park user Roronoa Zacho for drawing this two years ago.
EDIT: Putting my personal opinions aside, a raid suit power-up for Sanji is possible. But a plot device like Lola's Vivre Card and/or assets for Usopp and Franky are also possible. Oda had Sanji say pretty much everything the raid suit/exoskeleton naysayers have been saying the entire arc, so he seems to know why Sanji getting the raid suit is thematically problematic. So I trust him to subvert our expectations on how this raid suit will pay off. Although before that happens, I can see Sanji using it once for a fight. And probably for gags like his fight with Mr. 2 and Nami testing out the Clima-Tact against Miss Doublefinger.
To still fit for cook sanji, the tech suit can be seen like all those modern tech based tools in kitchen these day.
@uniaka:
To still fit for cook sanji, the tech suit can be seen like all those modern tech based tools in kitchen these day.
I can't see Oda going for that since he has stuck Sanji with only kicking for so long, but… Wow, that actually sounds cool to me lol. It reminds me of how he used kitchen knives against Wanze's ramen noodle armor. But a big point that Sanji made was only using kitchenware on food, so this is impossible.
Sanji's pride can sometimes make him a cool character, but it places a bunch of arbitrary limitations on him. Most of those principles embed his moral philosophies deeply to the point can't be broken or else Sanji looks like a scummy hypocrite. Not that he isn't already a scumbag for following Zeff's needlessly sexist rules, disrespecting women, and risking his crewmates lives because he can't harm women, but still.
I voted for "The Raid Suit will become relevant again for yet unknown plot reasons, like Lola's Vivre Card" Because it feels like Big Mom could probably steal it and use it to gain info on Germa Technology.
@Count:
Snipers specialize in long-range combat and deception
Snipers are specialized in deception?
Snipers are specialized in deception?
By "deception", I mean stealth. Which is why snipers usually aim from far away and out of sight, sometimes wearing camouflage or finding some way for their target to get distracted because they might miss the target if they scramble around trying to avoid their shots. But I was trying to find a way to account for Usopp's prank-esque tactics in fooling and trapping his opponents. So "deception" sounded like the right word.
Does that work for you?
@Count:
I do not care for Sanji wearing it I like his fighting style because it centers around his personality and cooking. He relies on kicking because his hands are too precious for cooking to risk and his fire attacks are loosely themed after spices/cooking heat and are created from friction/passion. All of that is consistent with Sanji's characterization in how he fights and acts. Getting a high-tech cyborg suit has nothing to do with what defines Sanji other than why he was picked on in his second flashback, and most of what these suits do is already redundant (advanced physical stats and leaping/air walking). The only thing it could add is some sort of elemental ability like Reiju's poison, Ichiji's sparks, Niji's electricity, and Yonji's winch fingers, but again, Sanji already has fire abilities.
Additionally, one of the most unique things about Sanji is his business suit attire. All of the Straw Hats change their attire for most arcs, sure, but that is what Sanji's design always keeps coming back to. A super sentai look just does not mesh with that. Hell, the raid suit design is the one thing I can concede works better for Usopp or even Franky than Sanji because those two like to act like goofy heroes who use technology, like to wear costumes, and do silly poses.
And I'm not even getting into how contradictory it feels for Sanji to wear a raid suit after his the second half of his character arc in Totland was proving his family's ideals of valuing royalty, strength, and technology over "peasant" duties like cooking wrong. In-universe, there is no reason for Sanji not to wear this suit other than pride. His crewmates in the latest chapter are right about science being valuable. But from a meta storytelling perspective, it only looks regressive. Why go from proving that you are already great without a tool your abusers use as a crutch to belittle you only to end up relying on that tool one or two arcs later? That is so contradictory.
I think I'm only fine with Sanji only using it once in a forced situation but striving to improve himself without it afterwards. It would make for nice gradual character development similar to Usopp building up bravery pre-timeskip.
Well, this guy pretty much said everything I wanted to say but twice as eloquently. I can't think of any future development for this suit business that I can feel both confident and comfortable with.
Just like everything involving the Vinsmokes it makes me feel like me and Oda are not on the same page anymore. He leaned so heavily into the flashy superheroes portrayal of them which was seemingly intended to impress and wow us readers, while their characterization remained both shallow and off-putting. It makes me afraid he's going down the same route with Sanji - and that I'm supposed to be okay with it despite the dubious writing because wowzers, power rangers flashy bang bang! My gut feeling is that Sanji will eventually put the thing on and Oda will portray it as something flashy and cool and badass, like he did with the Vinsmoke family members, and I'll once again be sitting there like "Welp, I'm not feeling this. Not feeling it at all".
The best way I can rationalize it is that Sanji "earned" the suit as a power-up by proving his family wrong about him without ever compromising on his ideals. I view Niji giving him the suit as a sort of twisted compliment and showing of respect in the only way the Germa can for Sanji. There's something vaguely satisfying about that reading.
So a use of it as a one-time deal in a dire situation, fine. That much I'm almost certain will happen. But I can't get on board with it as a permanent power-up for Sanji. It would change his entire fighting style both aesthetically and thematically in a direction I'm not fond of at all. Unfortunately given how fond Oda seems to be of the flashy superheroes theme, I'm afraid it may be a case where me and the series ends up having an irreconcilable difference.
Sanji will have to use the suit in a desperate situation. He will kick ass at first, but after a while his mojo will destroy the suit and Sanji will have surpassed the germa tech.
He will use it sooner or later… Even if I do not like it. But I want to see the abilities gained form it.
Requoting myself from the chapter thread
All the raid suits (Judge excluded cuz he is normal) somehow is connected to the siblings mutant powers…
Sanji is the "failure" for never getting anything liek the exoskeleton... He was even mocked by it by Niji in the very last scene.
So what if besides boosting his natural stats he will also gain an outer exoskeleton? He already gained his unique powers in form of Diable Jambe without the mutant powers so he doesn't need that like Judge who channels lightning and is using a weapon through his raid suit.
Or do you think he will "activcate" his DNA powers as well or Diable Jambe already is that?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Count:
All the raid suits (Judge excluded cuz he is normal) somehow is connected to the siblings mutant powers…
Sanji is the "failure" for never getting anything liek the exoskeleton... He was even mocked by it by Niji in the very last scene.
So what if besides boosting his natural stats he will also gain an outer exoskeleton? He already gained his unique powers in form of Diable Jambe without the mutant powers so he doesn't need that like Judge who channels lightning and is using a weapon through his raid suit.
Or do you think he will "activcate" his DNA powers as well or Diable Jambe already is that?
Niji's and Ichiji's elemental abilities are not from the suits… We do not know about Yonji and Reiju
I'm completely in line with the 2 previous comments. Having such a thing become a permanent upgrade for Sanji would be way too big of a change in terms of design and a big blow for the character in storytelling terms. But it seems almost certain he will use it once and then eventually surpass the power it grants him.
Problem is the suit still boost your stats… So even he becomes stronger on his own he still would get a boost.
And we still have the mutant powers... Of course he was said to be compleltey human but it was also said that the experiment was a success just that it hasn't activated for Sanji
Design wise... It might be more decent than the Power Ranger look... Maybe even Niji style just in black... even if Yellow is his color
Niji's and Ichiji's elemental abilities are not from the suits… We do not now about Yonji and Reiju
I could never tell whether those powers came from genetic experiments or their raid suits. Thank you for correcting that. Sanji's raid suit is even more useless now.
@Count:
I could never tell whether those powers came from genetic experiments or their raid suits. Thank you for correcting that. Sanji's raid suit is even more useless now.
Well as I said… Dunno for Poison... And especially Yonji.
See my post in the questions thread
Oda was not very clear about what powers they get born with and suit powers. Reiju is also listed as DF user.
Could be that is just enhances what they already got, not giving them something new. As in sanji will be able to fly faster, create more fire, more strength. But that line of luffy is like asking for sanji to shoot lazors at some point.
@Count:
By "deception", I mean stealth. Which is why snipers usually aim from far away and out of sight, sometimes wearing camouflage or finding some way for their target to get distracted because they might miss the target if they scramble around trying to avoid their shots. But I was trying to find a way to account for Usopp's prank-esque tactics in fooling and trapping his opponents. So "deception" sounded like the right word.
Does that work for you?
I was only curious, because I had never heard of this association, but what you mean makes sense.
Nonetheless, I disagree with you because Usopp is not a typical sniper when it comes to fighting, to the point that it's a completely new thing. In my understandment, Oda has two distinct roles for Usopp in this regard: one is the sniper that will save the day somehow with a long distance shot, the other is the weak combatent that relies on gadgets/deception. It's the second one that do fights, even if many of his techniques comes from using his slingshot (like the pop greens). The reason why? Maybe Oda doesn't think it's ethical/fun for a main character to win his fight sniping enemies far from a distance.
My point is that, moving forward, when the time comes for Usopp to have an actual fight (like his against Mr. 4 and Perona), we should expect the usual close combat with lots of running around, trying to outsmart the opponent, keeping the distance, resisting huge blows, a lot of things that involve his physical performance, even if it's not about winning with a punch… so the Reid Suit would be a great device to make it believable for a guy that was just offscreened by Trebol.
In no way I believe Usopp will become your usual kung fu fighter because of the Reid Suit, but rather the same old Usopp, just more agile and resistent and with a great super hero outfit.
Chopper and Luffy said they couldn´t activate/use it, which only leaves Sanji to ever use it.
I guess when they´re on Wano and Sanji has to face an overwhelming opponent, he will jump over his shadow and use the suit to defeat a calamity.
I was only curious, because I'd never heard of this association, but what you mean makes sense.
Nonetheless, I disagree with you overall because Usopp is not a typical sniper when it comes to fighting, to the point that it's a completely new thing. In my understandment, Oda has two distinct roles for Usopp in this regard: one is the sniper that will save the day somehow with a long distance shot, the other is the weak combatent that relies on gadgets/deception. It's the second one that do fights, even if many of his techniques comes from using his slingshot (like the pop greens). The reason why? Maybe Oda doesn't think it's ethical/fun for a main character to win his fight sniping enemies far from a distance.
My point is that, moving forward, when the time comes for Usopp to have an actual fight (like his against Mr. 4 and Perona), we should expect the usual close combat with lots of running around, trying to outsmart the opponent, keeping the distance, resisting huge blows, a lot of things that involve his physical performance, even if it's not about winning with a punch… so the Reid Suit would be a great device to make it believable for a guy that was just offscreened by Trebol.
In no way I believe Usopp will become your usual kung fu fighter because of the Reid Suit, but rather the same old Usopp, just more agile and resistent and with a great super hero outfit.
Usopp is not the typical sniper. He is a very quirky sniper. But still a sniper nonetheless. He got assigned that role by Oda because it fits his cowardice and prankster attributes, because having that kind of character win fights relies on fun creativity. Something that stands out from how Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Chopper, and Franky all rely on brute force with a bit of strategy and versatility accents on the side.
A lot of things involve his physical performance, but Usopp still always relies on weapons, traps, and outsmarting his opponents. That is how he always stands out in his fights. There is a reason why his slingshot is synonymous with him. I disagree on Oda thinking that sniping is unethical (Flambe got criticized but only because she interrupted a fight and made things unfair for Luffy), but you are right about strict sniping not being too fun. Hence why Usopp has never fought a single marksman but will inevitably fight Van Augur. But there are many ways to make Usopp fun without powering up his physicals.
And about Trebol, Usopp is always impressive because of how he's a weak human that overcomes the odds with his own quirky talents. He gets beaten up a LOT, but he withstands it through sheer willpower and improvisation. This is what practically defines One Piece. That is why his fight with Chopper against Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas was awesome. That is why his fight with Luffy was surprising but impressive. That is why him being specially suited to take down Perona and Sugar was great. Raid suits are based around improving someone's physical fights, and that is not something Usopp needs. Because the entire point of Usopp is showing that he can be impressive WITHOUT doing what the power houses in his crew do. Fight with their bare fists/feet and hop all over the place like super humans.
The raid suits don't do much besides physical stat increases and floating in midair. Although I might like the floating for Usopp since that can give him good vantage points for sniping and setting up traps without altering his physical stats. Usopp does not need that. Especially when he has plants he can use for platforms. I do not want Usopp to upgrade his lack of agility and resilience, I want him to work around it. Whether he does kung fu or only jumps really high is irrelevant, it works against what makes Usopp great. That is how his character has worked for twenty years and I want it to stay that way. This is how he stands out.
@Count:
Usopp is not the typical sniper. He is a very quirky sniper. But still a sniper nonetheless. He got assigned that role by Oda because it fits his cowardice and prankster attributes, because having that kind of character win fights relies on fun creativity. Something that stands out from how Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Chopper, and Franky all rely on brute force with a bit of strategy and versatility accents on the side.
A lot of things involve his physical performance, but Usopp still always relies on weapons, traps, and outsmarting his opponents. That is how he always stands out in his fights. There is a reason why his slingshot is synonymous with him. I disagree on Oda thinking that sniping is unethical (Flambe got criticized but only because she interrupted a fight and made things unfair for Luffy), but you are right about strict sniping not being too fun. Hence why Usopp has never fought a single marksman but will inevitably fight Van Augur. But there are many ways to make Usopp fun without powering up his physicals.
And about Trebol, Usopp is always impressive because of how he's a weak human that overcomes the odds with his own quirky talents. He gets beaten up a LOT, but he withstands it through sheer willpower and improvisation. This is what practically defines One Piece. That is why his fight with Chopper against Mr. 4 and Miss Merry Christmas was awesome. That is why his fight with Luffy was surprising but impressive. That is why him being specially suited to take down Perona and Sugar was great. Raid suits are based around improving someone's physical fights, and that is not something Usopp needs. Because the entire point of Usopp is showing that he can be impressive WITHOUT doing what the power houses in his crew do. Fight with their bare fists/feet and hop all over the place like super humans.
The raid suits don't do much besides physical stat increases and floating in midair. Although I might like the floating for Usopp since that can give him good vantage points for sniping and setting up traps without altering his physical stats. Usopp does not need that. Especially when he has plants he can use for platforms. I do not want Usopp to upgrade his lack of agility and resilience, I want him to work around it. Whether he does kung fu or only jumps really high is irrelevant, it works against what makes Usopp great. That is how his character has worked for twenty years and I want it to stay that way. This is how he stands out.
I don't think our view on Usopp is any different, so the only conflict in our opinions is how we see Usopp using the Reid Suit. As I've said, I don't think he'll use it to become more like the others when it comes to fighting abilities, but rather will keep being the same old Usopp. I don't envision him kicking, punching, dodging a lot, anything of that, but only moving around much more freely, much faster, floating in the sky, accelerating with some turbos, maybe even completely subverting some of the tricks of the suit in a gag-style to fool his enemies. Everything a lot of fun.
The fact that Usopp will have to work around his inferior physical stats compared to his opponents is still true, since for me the upgrade from the Reid Suit is not enough to make you top tier. It's not like suddenly he's equal to his opponents. No. He'll just have more of a chance because of new tricks, that's it.
This topic is exciting because while I have no idea of how the suit could improve Sanji in any way, I am at the same time certain it has been carefully planned and will not fail to surprise me.
@uniaka:
Too bad oda didn't give sanji a top tier luxury trainer like how luffy and zoro got rayleigh and mihawk, then we would not have this long and boring '' sanji should not use it, but sanji should use it'' topic, because sanji would be strong enough not to need this type of power up.
Perhaps a "top tier luxury trainer" wasn't the most important, as many characters have become extremely powerful without having a mentor; but I keep on asking myself how Oda could have thought it'd be a good idea to leave Sanji's training in the hands of okama.
He could've placed him alone on a jungle and have him fight gigantic animals like Luffy did, and that would have still been enough to raise his frustration as the only females around would be elephants, tigers or monkeys.
I'd say that at least he spent his time fighting relentlessly, which is a good thing.
Regardless there is still hope, considering Sanji's sudden bounty raise, that I see as a way to tell fans that he's still got it.
It's not a problem while Franky using tweaks for being more powerful (Zoro gaining better swords) Usopp/Nami having new tools… But it is for Sanji?
He's on the same boat (litteraly). OP isn't a strength/strength manga.
It's not a problem while Franky using tweaks for being more powerful (Zoro gaining better swords) Usopp/Nami having new tools… But it is for Sanji?
He's on the same boat (litteraly). OP isn't a strength/strength manga.
But all of those are upgrades of their "tools"; same as for Luffy figuring out G2,…4 which correspond to new ways to use his fruit. These "tools" are part of their identity as fighters; Nami always had a stick, Franky was always a cyborg... Wouldn't a whole new Germa suit ruin Sanji's identity? Or would it (and it's a fair point) be an element of whatcourse would make him who he truly is: a pirate cook, yes, but also a Germa 66 experiment. It could be a lesson about embracing one's origins as a mean of getting stronger, but then maybe that's going too far.
If Sanji had the raid suit from the start, it wouldn't be a problem. Another thing that people dislike is that gaining a suit (that was designed by people he hates and that mistreated him) would basically... nullify? his previous training. That doesn't bother me, as I'd much rather see Sanji gain strength than remain of average power just because his training was badly handled.
Why was Sanji's training badly handled? Because he doesn't have many feats in the New World? Huh, I don't think Oda decided to write Sanji's struggle against some of his opponents only because the okama training couldn't possibly pay off strenght-wise. It's actually funny to imagine Oda in his chair thinking "oh damn, can't make Sanji win this fight here because he trained with okama Ivankov, not the with the likes of the great Mihawk, shit, gonna give him a power suit to compensate then". Everything in this particular case is deliberate, arbitrary, not a chain of logical consequences.
It's hard to measure how strong is Sanji and how strong Oda wants Sanji to be at this point of the series. If we look at Sanji's track record in the New World, all his quick unfinished fights were against really strong opponents that probably are in a higher hierarchy than Sanji in the worldbuilding of the series, not something Sanji should trample over in a second. Considering Oda never intended to write an actual fight out of any of those cases, Sanji didn't have enough time to either win or lose. He was only hyping those guys while they were hyping him back, depending on how the reader undestands each one of these clashes. Meanwhile, Sanji has other quick feats, like moving ultra fast, destroying a Pacifista with one kick and incinerating a gigantic Wadatsumi almost as if he had a fire devil fruit power.
The question is what Oda intends to do when the time comes for Sanji to have a proper 1v1 in the New World. I have no idea, really, but if we look at the past for reference, Sanji was always strong enough without any explication, just because. He often skipped fights in many arcs just to come back later winning against someone strong, like Mr. 2 (after having no fights in the first four arcs of the Grand Line) and Jyabura (after having no fights in Skypiea).
This topic is exciting because while I have no idea of how the suit could improve Sanji in any way, I am at the same time certain it has been carefully planned and will not fail to surprise me.
Perhaps a "top tier luxury trainer" wasn't the most important, as many characters have become extremely powerful without having a mentor; but I keep on asking myself how Oda could have thought it'd be a good idea to leave Sanji's training in the hands of okama.
He could've placed him alone on a jungle and have him fight gigantic animals like Luffy did, and that would have still been enough to raise his frustration as the only females around would be elephants, tigers or monkeys.
I'd say that at least he spent his time fighting relentlessly, which is a good thing.Regardless there is still hope, considering Sanji's sudden bounty raise, that I see as a way to tell fans that he's still got it.
I guess he send him there because okamas seem to be good cooks, but based on how sanji was portrayed in the story as M3, he should get someone like Zeff 2.0 that is both great and cook and great fighter. Okamas, have never looked super strong. The new queen okama of impel down,Mr2, was defeated by sanji since alabasta, the former queen ivankov has a rather good DF, but in terms of fighting he didn't really look great even pre ts.
@Chrior:
I'm completely in line with the 2 previous comments. Having such a thing become a permanent upgrade for Sanji would be way too big of a change in terms of design and a big blow for the character in storytelling terms. But it seems almost certain he will use it once and then eventually surpass the power it grants him.
And about the design of sanji. This suit will be used like maybe 1-2 chapters for one of the rare battles of sanji, so I don't see how this is any problem, he will still wear his normal outfit most of the time. If franky can have such a drastic change from what he looked like pre ts to post ts design, this is nothing.
I still want to know when exactly this suit was made… Was it back when he was still with the Vinsmokes. Was it recently before the whole shit started and so on.
Still hope that Sora will have something to do with it or at least will be mentioned
Sanji keeps falling behind in terms of strength and feats. Skywalk is now a common technique in NW. Getting raid suit and the huge bounty in spite he earned neither of them. What is the road to him that pulls him back to beign part of monster trio? Regardless if he wears the raidsuit or not in future, it along with the bounty increase is a signal that he needs to get stronger, one way or another.
@uniaka:
The chapter confirmed that only sanji can use it. And sanji will be the new sogeking, as in luffy and chopper will never know it's sanji.
Too bad oda didn't give sanji a top tier luxury trainer like how luffy and zoro got rayleigh and mihawk, then we would not have this long and boring '' sanji should not use it, but sanji should use it'' topic, because sanji would be strong enough not to need this type of power up.
You can blame Sanji for that. Iva first said she would only teach Sanji the "attacking cooking" after he mastered Newkama Kenpo, but he refused because masculinity is fragile, so Iva had to come up with an alternate way for him to learn it by stealing the recipes from cooks while running away from them…
All of that 3 pages after Chopper decided he will do whatever it takes to become stronger for Luffy, even if he has to become a real monster. When you compare the amount of resolve of the SH during the time skip you notice Sanji actually deserves what he got. While Zoro is bowing to the rival he vowed to surpass and asking for his help, Sanji is throwing away his chance of a real training because of personal pride.
When I think about it, I kinda end up wanting Sanji to actually wear the Raid Suit. After screwing things over for the first time, having him swallowing up his hatred of his family to get this power up and becomes more useful to the Strawhats would kinda amend things.
@.access:
You can blame Sanji for that. Iva first said she would only teach Sanji the "attacking cooking" after he mastered Newkama Kenpo, but he refused because masculinity is fragile, so Iva had to come up with an alternate way for him to learn it by stealing the recipes from cooks while running away from them…
All of that 3 pages after Chopper decided he will do whatever it takes to become stronger for Luffy, even if he has to become a real monster. When you compare the amount of resolve of the SH during the time skip you notice Sanji actually deserves what he got. While Zoro is bowing to the rival he vowed to surpass and asking for his help, Sanji is throwing away his chance of a real training because of personal pride.When I think about it, I kinda end up wanting Sanji to actually wear the Raid Suit. After screwing things over for the first time, having him swallowing up his hatred of his family to get this power up and becomes more useful to the Strawhats would kinda amend things.
Sanji always been the guy that will stick by his principle no matter wether it is nourishing any angry person or letting anyone starve. You can say anything about the guy but he has the strength of his convictions and when he says he stand by something he really does.
The question is the family matter that important to him.
There's no real reason to think Sanji can't handle himself in the New World, at least compared to other people of similar stature. It's just the plot that has gotten in the way of major battle feats.
As I said in the chapter thread, Sanji is a guy who'll stick by his convictions no matter what. That means he won't put on the Raid Suit out of some vapid desire to test its power, and I actually think he might be more inclined to demonstrate more of his natural talents in the near future just to prove to his crew that he doesn't need it. When considering situations in which Sanji might wear the Raid Suit, it essentially boils down to situations that would force Sanji to break his convictions, which iirc has never happened. He didn't even kick a woman when it was necessary in order to save Robin, and he has no issue with self-sacrifice, sometimes to the point of considering it a tad too often (though that's hopefully changed a bit after this arc)
I'm not saying there's absolutely no chance that Sanji won't be forced into that kind of situation. Wano seems like it'll be the biggest arc in the entire series so far and anything can happen. But it will take something especially serious for Sanji to put on that Raid Suit. And considering how One Piece takes personal conviction extremely seriously, the results of any usage of the Raid Suit will be notable. Think Zoro losing to Mihawk, or Luffy losing the will to fight after Ace's death. Both had characters making declarations afterward to improve themselves in order to go further into the world and in pursuit of their dreams. So the Raid Suit may actually improve Sanji's strength in the long term; not because of its strength, but because Sanji wants to surpass it.
I think Sanji will wear it, simply because I feel like Oda teased it just by introducing the suit. If he didn't want him to wear it then he wouldn't have done that in the first place I think, he knows that after bringing the suit into play a lot of readers want it to happen.
Don't like it at all right now, but who knows how this will be handled. I just hope that he won't absolutely need it to defeat one of his next opponents and that he will use it just one time.
Sanji using it to save someone or even the whole crew could be fine if the situation were really extreme, or maybe even if there was an extremely broken enemy that should be defeated in order to save someone or something, and after using the suit he were to surpass its power like others have suggested. But it still would be better if he wins at least a fight without it.
If it really is a one time thing then I have no idea if something will happen to it after Sanji uses it and what could that be. I sure love the Mecha Sunny idea, and we've yet to meet Vegapunk after all. I don't like Usopp using it because it would change his character too much, and Franky using it would be cool but still kinda out of place.
@Kaido:
There's no real reason to think Sanji can't handle himself in the New World, at least compared to other people of similar stature. It's just the plot that has gotten in the way of major battle feats.
I see it the other way around. There is no reason to think that he's up to level of beign on par with Luffy and Zoro, because he haven't had any major battle feats for many arcs in row now. Sanji doesn't have a goal to become pirate king nor strongest swordsman in the world, so there is no reason to assume that he'd be that strong unless he proves it through actual feats in manga. There is that idea of the monster trio and his rivalry with Zoro, but other than that there is nothing keeping him up there. This recent bounty increase is just one thing in how many arcs that puts him back up, but it isn't bounty earned by his battle provess, so it's hollow anyway.
I wonder if the suit was modified in some way making it different from the other raid suits. Though I could see it now, Luffy and Chopper sneak it onto Sanji while he's asleep. That would be hilarious.
While I was against the idea before, since the possibility is before us, I'm really curious about what Sanji could do with it.
It'd be great if the Sunny could become some crazy mech, especially to get Luffy and Chopper's first reactions. They'd probably be knocked unconscious
I see it the other way around. There is no reason to think that he's up to level of beign on par with Luffy and Zoro, because he haven't had any major battle feats for many arcs in row now. Sanji doesn't have a goal to become pirate king nor strongest swordsman in the world, so there is no reason to assume that he'd be that strong unless he proves it through actual feats in manga. There is that idea of the monster trio and his rivalry with Zoro, but other than that there is nothing keeping him up there. This recent bounty increase is just one thing in how many arcs that puts him back up, but it isn't bounty earned by his battle provess, so it's hollow anyway.
The problem isn't so much that Sanji is falling short against enemies he should be beating, but the fact that he's barely gotten a chance to do real battle with any of them. I don't think there'd be any doubt that he would have been able to beat a Donquixote Pirate had he stayed on Dressrosa, and him fighting a stronger member of the Big Mom Pirates wasn't seen as outlandish at all. In Punk Hazard and Dressrosa, he went up against opponents that were never meant to be defeated by him. He actually put up a pretty good fight against Vergo, and I don't think that the battle would have been a guaranteed loss had it played out in full, but Vergo was not only the physically strongest villain on the island, but was also set up from the beginning to be Law's grudge match to boot. Then there was Doflamingo, who Sanji was never going to stand a chance against considering the guy pushed two Supernovas to their limits without taking a break. Then after that of course we have the less fight-centric WCI.
I'm not saying that what's happened to Sanji fight-wise has been good, but I think he just needs a better setup, rather than a powerup, to catch an elusive victory in a kind of match that has also been rather elusive.
Why was Sanji's training badly handled? Because he doesn't have many feats in the New World? Huh, I don't think Oda decided to write Sanji's struggle against some of his opponents only because the okama training couldn't possibly pay off strenght-wise. It's actually funny to imagine Oda in his chair thinking "oh damn, can't make Sanji win this fight here because he trained with okama Ivankov, not the with the likes of the great Mihawk, shit, gonna give him a power suit to compensate then". Everything in this particular case is deliberate, arbitrary, not a chain of logical consequences.
It's hard to measure how strong is Sanji and how strong Oda wants Sanji to be at this point of the series. If we look at Sanji's track record in the New World, all his quick unfinished fights were against really strong opponents that probably are in a higher hierarchy than Sanji in the worldbuilding of the series, not something Sanji should trample over in a second. Considering Oda never intended to write an actual fight out of any of those cases, Sanji didn't have enough time to either win or lose. He was only hyping those guys while they were hyping him back, depending on how the reader undestands each one of these clashes. Meanwhile, Sanji has other quick feats, like moving ultra fast, destroying a Pacifista with one kick and incinerating a gigantic Wadatsumi almost as if he had a fire devil fruit power.
The question is what Oda intends to do when the time comes for Sanji to have a proper 1v1 in the New World. I have no idea, really, but if we look at the past for reference, Sanji was always strong enough without any explication, just because. He often skipped fights in many arcs just to come back later winning against someone strong, like Mr. 2 (after having no fights in the first four arcs of the Grand Line) and Jyabura (after having no fights in Skypiea).
This guy gets it 180 trillion %. Should be stickied to the top of the page on every page of this thread.
Of course people will naturally continue to believe because of Sanji's dream he can't be one of the strongest anything. Much like Newgate's dream to have a family meant he was factually not the strongest man in the world.
Then there is Hawkeye who is the greatest swordsmen! It was so reassuring when he got to go toe to toe with White Beard. That was another clear case of showing us that Luffy and Zoro's goals are equal and that they are undoubtedly in the same league. It's a good thing that Mihawk wasn't forced to deal with Jozu and Vista, you know the White Beards equivalent to Zoro/Sanji/Jimbei.
Then there is that loser Ivankov. One of the leaders of the revolutionary army who at one point was the right hand man of the worlds most wanted man. Doesn't matter that when Doflamingo began discussing the future rulers of the world Iva's face was up there with all the other established top dogs. Doesn't matter that Iva had no fear of Kuma(a War Lord like Mihawk) and went all ham on him. Don't get me started on how he handled Magellan, the ultimate monster in the house. Iva battled him and ended up getting knocked out! He should have just only ran away like Jimbei and Crocodile(those other war lords like Mihawk were smarter)! The future Emperor Black Beard got surprised and one shotted when confronted with Magellan. Still looks bad on Iva because at least Shiryu was there to bail the Black Beards out of certain death and get revenge.
Dreams of going on adventures and finding a legendary ocean mean that gaining top tier strength is impossible. I just wish Oda told that to Jimbei, White Beard, Big Mom and Ace.
Dreams of going on adventures and finding a legendary ocean mean that gaining top tier strength is impossible. I just wish Oda told that to Jimbei, White Beard, Big Mom and Ace.
Sadly people will always ignore this
The problem is hype versus reality. Do you believe in Sanji's strength because of the superstition that he's supposed to be part of monster trio and hence you use whatever hint as confrimation bias to keep believing it? Or would you rather believe in his strength due to him actually proving it in action?
Point is sanji did perform questionable in battle so far, and proof that oda wants him to improve in battle is this suit. He could just go for haki, but I guess he is saving that for some other time. Maybe this is the reason oda even made him look bad so far, so he can show that he needs this suit.
Like, as much as you find excuses, breaking his leg in his first 1vs1 after 2 years of training is just bad. So what if he was hurt before, luffy and zoro get damaged heavily all the time yet they still win. Its clear he keeps him part of the M3 even post ts, if his new Bounty is any proof.
Ichiji is red nidji is blue yonji is green…definitely power up for sanji...dna control used only by sanji... sanji is black suit with maybe black flame ameterasu lol
@uniaka:
Point is sanji did perform questionable in battle so far, and proof that oda wants him to improve in battle is this suit. He could just go for haki, but I guess he is saving that for some other time. Maybe this is the reason oda even made him look bad so far, so he can show that he needs this suit.
Like, as much as you find excuses, breaking his leg in his first 1vs1 after 2 years of training is just bad. So what if he was hurt before, luffy and zoro get damaged heavily all the time yet they still win. Its clear he keeps him part of the M3 even post ts, if his new Bounty is any proof.
As you've said, the Strawhats get broken bones/heavy damage all the time and still win their fights. There's no reason to think Sanji couldn't beat Vergo after that as Sanji kept fightning like it didn't matter and didn't complain even once after Vergo fled.