Star Trek Franchise

Foolio

Okay, so it wasn't just me.

And I felt bad, because the way the scene was delivered was great.

But damn it, it hurt to hold it in.

It was definitely TOTALLY unexpected, at least for me.

TLC: No I don't feel bad, I actually feel kind of relieved because it means the argument is neither of our fault. It also DEFINITELY means I am going to stop trying to discuss this point. Every single time you have paraphrased me it has been nothing even close to my point.

Apprentice

TLC has to be within the top 1 million annoying people on the planet. God damn is he irritating. That huge ass list of "Plot holes" literally half of them were just things that were flat out stated and either he missed it or couldn't comprehend it.

Example of one. "Why was the scroll important?"
Kirk says, they were BOWING to it. It was holy to them so they chased him. It was a distraction plain and simple.

Then when someone else explains this to him he asks more question about it instead of accepting the ACCURATE, SIMPLE, LOGICAL answer. I swear I want TLC to make a film one day so I can pick it to fucking death.

Movie was great by the way. Saw it last night in no 3D or Imax and loved it. There were some things wrong with it but overall it was fun, had drama, action and suspense. Taking Star Trek lore out of it I don't see how any casual viewer could dislike it.

TLC

@Foolio:

It was definitely TOTALLY unexpected, at least for me.

TLC: No I don't feel bad, I actually feel kind of relieved because it means the argument is neither of our fault. It also DEFINITELY means I am going to stop trying to discuss this point. Every single time you have paraphrased me it has been nothing even close to my point.

Oh wow, hey dude. Way to be grossly offensive. Here I was trying to civil and stick to the movie and you make it personal by calling me a retard (and by extension claiming anyone with Aspergers are just single minded buffoons as well).

"But but but, I got autistic friends too, I'm not insulting you"

Uh huh. See, I at least respected you enough to argue with you on an even footing, you go ahead and make me out as a tunnel visioned invalid who only argues for the sake of arguing because he doesn't know any better. Instead of you know, a person with legitimate complaints about the movie. Well let me assure you, I didn't make my arguments just because of any social disorders that prevent me from not arguing. I made my argument because I WANTED to, because I saw a shitty movie and I wanted to give my thoughts about it. Just like you saw (what you think) was a good movie and wanted to give your thoughts about it. Difference being I at least respected your opinion enough to not make this personal.

But hey, maybe I'm just paraphrasing you wrong again.

@Apprentice:

TLC has to be within the top 1 million annoying people on the planet. God damn is he irritating. That huge ass list of "Plot holes" literally half of them were just things that were flat out stated and either he missed it or couldn't comprehend it.

I listed a lot so assuming that half of them are invalid, that's still a lot. Also no one has been able to strike down a single one of them yet.

@Apprentice:

Example of one. "Why was the scroll important?"
Kirk says, they were BOWING to it. It was holy to them so they chased him. It was a distraction plain and simple.

Can you explain why they needed the distraction and didn't just teleport the bomb into the volcano? You know other than because the plot said so?

@Apprentice:

Then when someone else explains this to him he asks more question about it instead of accepting the ACCURATE, SIMPLE, LOGICAL answer.

I'm sorry I don't just blindly accept the inconsistencies of this film as timey-wimey.

@Apprentice:

I swear I want TLC to make a film one day so I can pick it to fucking death.

My complaints about this film go beyond simple nitpicks. Like fundamental flaws in the writing and characterisation.

Robby

TLC, let it go, you're doing that thing again that gets you banned from threads. Apprentice, you're annoying too in your own ways. Foolio, people just like arguing with you over semantics this week for some reason. Robby, you're an opinionated asshole that just doesn't get it.

Does that cover everyone?

I explained my points as clearly as I could two days ago, and said all that needed saying. (More than, in fact.) Continuing from that point would have just lead to more walls of text, so I stopped. I can't believe it's still going two days later and down to personal insults all around.

Agree to disagree on these points folks, and move on. I didn't like the first movie for a lot of reasons, have no opinion on the new one because I won't see it any time soon. A ton of people are enjoying the new one, including fans of the old show and many are finding it better than the first, and that's great. The main point of "Summer blockbusters don't have to be stupid" still stands, however you do or don't want to apply it towards this particular film.

pyromonki

@RobbyBevard:

Agree to disagree on these points folks, and move on. I didn't like the first movie for a lot of reasons, have no opinion on the new one because I won't see it any time soon..

It's a hard to recommend to someone who didn't like the first one. Luckily we live in the times where you can rent a movie for a dollar.

Apprentice

@pyromonki:

It's a hard to recommend to someone who didn't like the first one. Luckily we live in the times where you can rent a movie for a dollar.

Not online though sadly.

Oh and In case I haven't heard it be mentioned yet

! "Mr. Sulu take the bridge" was easily one of the best parts of the movie. I want a spin off movie where he has his own ship. In fact I want him to have the Next Generations Ship and Spock to have the ship from Voyager and the three of them to have epic space adventures criss crossing three movie franchises at once. Dammit if marvel can do it so can Star Trek.

KaizokuFan22

As someone who has never seen the Original series and mostly the old films of Star trek, I liked both films so far.
It actually made me think now,IMO, that Khan has been a rival of Kirks for a long time (If this film and the 1980's Wrath of Khan film can be connected at some point)that and

! Kirks Last line in the film is the main TV Opening line for the show

Hopefully my Friend is right that Borgs should be debuting soon if theres a 3rd film in 2014

Green_vs_Red

@Apprentice:

Not online though sadly.

Oh and In case I haven't heard it be mentioned yet

! "Mr. Sulu take the bridge" was easily one of the best parts of the movie. I want a spin off movie where he has his own ship. In fact I want him to have the Next Generations Ship and Spock to have the ship from Voyager and the three of them to have epic space adventures criss crossing three movie franchises at once. Dammit if marvel can do it so can Star Trek.

Not to be the guy but doesn't a significant portion of the fanbase hate Voyager.

CosmicDebris

@KaizokuFan22:

As someone who has never seen the Original series and mostly the old films of Star trek, I liked both films so far.
It actually made me think now,IMO, that Khan has been a rival of Kirks for a long time (If this film and the 1980's Wrath of Khan film can be connected at some point)that and

! Kirks Last line in the film is the main TV Opening line for the show

….. not really sure what you're trying to say.

Hopefully my Friend is right that Borgs should be debuting soon if theres a 3rd film in 2014

Borg don't appear Star Trek until 80 years later, during The Next Generation timeline.

Apprentice

@Green_vs_Red:

Not to be the guy but doesn't a significant portion of the fanbase hate Voyager.

What does that have to do with what I said? Do people hate voyager because of the ship?

Robby

@Apprentice:

What does that have to do with what I said? Do people hate voyager because of the ship?

Putting anything Voyager related into the equation instantly takes away the cool factor. That includes the ship.

Now, the Defiant from DS9, that's another matter.

Apprentice

@RobbyBevard:

Putting anything Voyager related into the equation instantly takes away the cool factor. That includes the ship.

Now, the Defiant from DS9, that's another matter.

Whatever DS9 then. Or heck design a new ship

The Laughing Man

I want to see freaking Borg done in modern times man! F the canon!

Apprentice

@The:

I want to see freaking Borg done in modern times man! F the canon!

They can be done. New timeline, new rules. The very fact that we got khan this early into Kirks's carrier shows that this timeline won't match up with the old one in terms of when events occur.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@The:

I want to see freaking Borg done in modern times man! F the canon!

They can be done. New timeline, new rules. The very fact that we got khan this early into Kirks's carrier shows that this timeline won't match up with the old one in terms of when events occur.

Robby

@Apprentice:

The very fact that we got khan this early into Kirks's carrier shows that this timeline won't match up with the old one in terms of when events occur.

Kirk and Khan met pretty early into his run.

Their famous second film rematch wasn't until a couple decades in, but they met pretty early.

The Borg weren't aware of the quadrant until Q showed them humans. The mere destruction of Vulcan shouldn't have disrupted them or made them any more aware in any way. …Besides, Voyager screwed them up too.

bountyhunter

Its weird, I enjoyed both the Abrams movies so I just started watching the Original Series. I'm like seven episodes in… and I think I hate the movies already.

Nobodyman

@RobbyBevard:

Kirk and Khan met pretty early into his run.

Into Darkness is set one year before the Enterprise began it's 5 year mission. So yes, Kirk and Kahn did meet earlier in this timeline (albeit, by only one or two years). Unless the Enterprise begain its 5 year mission later in this timeline for some reason.

As for Borg in the seequel? Eh, whatever.

Apprentice

@RobbyBevard:

Kirk and Khan met pretty early into his run.

Their famous second film rematch wasn't until a couple decades in, but they met pretty early.

The Borg weren't aware of the quadrant until Q showed them humans. The mere destruction of Vulcan shouldn't have disrupted them or made them any more aware in any way. …Besides, Voyager screwed them up too.

But if Kirk didn't do the 14 years of star command training like old kirk did isn't it like 10 years earlier rather than a couple years? Yes they might have been CAPTAINS ofr around the same length of time but total years passed should be way off.

Wait They met before WOK?

It wasn't the destruction of vulcan that caused the time flux, it was the red matter causing a wormhole in the first place. So that's really a non factor.

Nobodyman

@Apprentice:

Wait They met before WOK?

Space Seed. Episode 22 of the Original Series.

Apprentice

@Nobodyman:

Space Seed. Episode 22 of the Original Series.

Cool. Doesn't answer anything else in my post but cool

Robby

@Apprentice:

Cool. Doesn't answer anything else in my post but cool

They met in the original series. When Kirk was still young. Not that many years different than the new movie. Decades before Wrath of Khan. That's why Khan was so pissed at Kirk in the first place.

Even without seeing the new movie, I'm sure the rivalry loses a little something without that 20 years of weight behind it.

KaizokuFan22

@CosmicDebris:

….. not really sure what you're trying to say.

Borg don't appear Star Trek until 80 years later, during The Next Generation timeline.

the Khan thing was Just wondering if the films of the old and today can be somewhat connected since Khan is a old time villain in Movie II of the old original films.
or was it about the spoiler? :wassat:

tatermoog

@RobbyBevard:

They met in the original series. When Kirk was still young. Not that many years different than the new movie. Decades before Wrath of Khan. That's why Khan was so pissed at Kirk in the first place.

Even without seeing the new movie, I'm sure the rivalry loses a little something without that 20 years of weight behind it.

That's kind of the major problem of the movie overall. It relies on the same plot beats as Wrath of Khan, but it lacks the weight of Khan/Kirk and the long-developed friendship of Spock/Kirk and the built-up universe, etc.

If The Wrath of Khan had never existed, it would be a pretty shallow semi-nonsensical movie. Might border on that anyways. And unlike you, I somewhat enjoyed the first one.

TLC

Without the weight of the name Khan, this villain in this movie would have just been another lame, unimpressive generic bad guy of the week where you wouldn't even understand why there was such a fuss made over him.

Bill

http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/features/9-ways-star-trek-into-darkness-is-too-much-like-a-star-wars-movie.php

Foolio

@tatermoog:

That's kind of the major problem of the movie overall. It relies on the same plot beats as Wrath of Khan, but it lacks the weight of Khan/Kirk and the long-developed friendship of Spock/Kirk and the built-up universe, etc.

If The Wrath of Khan had never existed, it would be a pretty shallow semi-nonsensical movie. Might border on that anyways. And unlike you, I somewhat enjoyed the first one.

I don't know. I never actually sat down and watched The Wrath of Khan (or the part of the show where he appears), though of course I know who he is and the general story/context. I didn't feel like his character was nonsensical this time.

tatermoog

@Foolio:

I don't know. I never actually sat down and watched The Wrath of Khan (or the part of the show where he appears), though of course I know who he is and the general story/context. I didn't feel like his character was nonsensical this time.

Well, an opposite perspective is that I might have been too critical of the movie due to my fondness of The Wrath of Khan. But in more detail:

! Most of the scenes that went over really well with the (mostly older) audience around me were the ones that were direct callbacks to the original Khan storyline, i.e. when Benny Cumberbatch revealed he was Khan, when Spock did the classic "KHAAAAAN" yell, etc.
! But take that moment for Spock as an example [and there will be some Wrath of Khan spoilers here, if you still plan on watching it]. In The Wrath of Khan, Spock's sacrifice was both shocking (killing off a major character seemingly for good in just the second movie of the franchise) and the culmination of a long-developed relationship. In Into Darkness, we've barely even established the friendship. There was some mutual admiration at the end of the first film, and the movie tries to set it up, but it felt like the effort to match events to the original storyline resulted in Abrams pulling the character death card way too soon.
! I have no problem with using Khan or a similar storyline in Abrams' version of the universe. But it felt to me like this was a plot designed for much later in the characters' arcs that got used earlier just in an effort to uphold expectations for fans of the original series.

Nia

I knew Cumberbatch would be in this (which is why I agreed to watch it, despite being ANTI-Trekki).
I did NOT know they'd call him John.
JOHN.
Heh. Hehehe. Hehehehehehe.
My Johnlock feels are extremely pleased.

clears throat
… aside of that, I went in with zero expectations, and I really really enjoyed it. Will watch it again in English, if I get the chance (we saw it in German).

Also, despite being anti-Trekki, from the second they

! revealed Cumberbatch to be Khan, I was just WAITING for someone to yell his name. Awesome

Sarfallet

@Nia:

I knew Cumberbatch would be in this (which is why I agreed to watch it, despite being ANTI-Trekki).

Anti-trekkie… Are you saying you're gonna combat us trekkies with deadly insults and nasty name-callings? :sad:

Nia

@Sarfallet:

Anti-trekkie… Are you saying you're gonna combat us trekkies with deadly insults and nasty name-callings? :sad:

Basically.
I'd like to go deeper and insult you on a level that hurts a lot more, by ripping apart plotholes and stuff, but for that, I'd have to watch all of it first, and that's way too much work.

Pochipochi

Ubiq

It's a fun movie, but a stupid one. Not so much that it made it unenjoyable, but there were were a few things that bugged me about it.

! 1) I'm fine with the Fakecelsior being a secret project since it blatantly violates everything Starfleet stands for, but why in the hell would you hide it in your own home system? Shouldn't somebody in Starfleet notice a big damn shipyard that popped up near Jupiter?

Where the hell was the rest of Starfleet while all this was going on? If nothing else, all those high-ranking people being killed should have resulted in most of those ships being temporarily grounded because they just lost their top two guys.
How the hell do they know so much about Qo'noS to the point that they even know what regions of the planetary surface are uninhabited provinces?

Again, it's a fun film, but it kinda relied on exactly the sort of plotpoints that people used to make fun of this series for.

Apprentice

Why is nobody talking about that epic fight between Spock and Khan? It was great. Vulcans are stronger than humans right? Because I thought that would explain why Spock was able to hurt him whereas Kirk couldn't. But I'm beginning to fear that isn't the case after watching some reviews.

Doesn't matter though it was still great. And the moment when Spock uses the Vulcan nerve pinch and Khan just tanks it… Orgasmic.

Also did anyone else think it was odd that Pike took the enterprise back from Kirk? If Pike was an admiral at this point isn't that a demotion for him?

Barkworm

@Apprentice:

Why is nobody talking about that epic fight between Spock and Khan? It was great. Vulcans are stronger than humans right? Because I thought that would explain why Spock was able to hurt him whereas Kirk couldn't. But I'm beginning to fear that isn't the case after watching some reviews.

Doesn't matter though it was still great. And the moment when Spock uses the Vulcan nerve pinch and Khan just tanks it… Orgasmic.

From the moment we saw Khan fight for the first time, I thought he just had to fight Spock (and yes, Vulcans are stronger than humans) and it was fantastic. Especially the part you mentioned.

CosmicDebris

@Ubiq:

It's a fun movie, but a stupid one.

I think I'd describe most Star Trek movies that way.

! 1) I'm fine with the Fakecelsior being a secret project since it blatantly violates everything Starfleet stands for, but why in the hell would you hide it in your own home system? Shouldn't somebody in Starfleet notice a big damn shipyard that popped up near Jupiter?

Same reasons why someone I know would hide their porn in their parents room, maybe?

! 2) Where the hell was the rest of Starfleet while all this was going on? If nothing else, all those high-ranking people being killed should have resulted in most of those ships being temporarily grounded because they just lost their top two guys.

What ships, the ones that were involved in a secret military operation? I'm not really getting that one. They knew who the "terrorist" was and where he was at, anyway.

! 3) How the hell do they know so much about Qo'noS to the point that they even know what regions of the planetary surface are uninhabited provinces?

I remember many Star Trek episodes in which they scan a planet's geography and population from afar with long distance sensors to the point of narrowing down very small areas. I'm sure some scout had mapped it out at some point since the Klingons are a perceived threat.

Ubiq

@CosmicDebris:

I think I'd describe most Star Trek movies that way.

Well, sure, but not usually to this extent.

! Same reasons why someone I know would hide their porn in their parents room, maybe?

! Why hide it in the house at all though? It's not like they couldn't pick a random empty system somewhere in the Federation to do this. This and a lot of the other stuff that I have problems with could have easily been fixed with a scene or just an added line or two. It smacks of laziness more than anything else.

! What ships, the ones that were involved in a secret military operation? I'm not really getting that one. They knew who the "terrorist" was and where he was at, anyway.

! The only two deployed on that mission were the Enterprise and the Not-Excelsior. The rest of them should be in the system either pretending to be looking for Harrison or waiting for Starfleet to reshuffle its entire command structure. If nothing else, you'd think that they'd stick around for a funeral for their captains and first officers.

! I remember many Star Trek episodes in which they scan a planet's geography and population from afar with long distance sensors to the point of narrowing down very small areas. I'm sure some scout had mapped it out at some point since the Klingons are a perceived threat.

! So they have sensors capable of picking up an individual guy in an entirely different system but not somebody in a volcano on the same planet or an entire shipyard in their own system?

Nobodyman

I still enjoyed the movie, but I got a kick out this (TLC, you will be pleased).

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

TLC

Lol, already read that one. It's hilarious and insightful.

CosmicDebris

@Ubiq:

Well, sure, but not usually to this extent.

Have you watched Star Trek V lately?

Up until the reboot, we really didn't have internet the way we have now with all these people meticulously scrutinizing every aspect of the films and have them up for thousands of people to read and repost within minutes of the first viewing.

STID got it right in the parts that actually matter: Kirk and Spock's friendship. That's always been the glue that held the original series together. So even when it had a stupid plot like an alien surgically removing Spock's brain and having the crew chase it down so they can get it back into his body, it was entertaining.

Traveller

This movie doesn't open until later in June in Finland and I didn't have much interest in it (haven't seen the previous reboot film either) but after reading that hilarious spoiler FAQ and listening to Spoony's review I might be interested to see the film in a ironic, "it's so bad it's good" sort of way.

Robby

@CosmicDebris:

Have you watched Star Trek V lately?

Yes. The campfire sequence, the memories bit, and the confrontation with "God" were all pretty good. The movie is the weakest of the original 6 no doubt, but it has some good stuff to it. (1 is the slow one, and 3's biggest problem is that it fell between 2 and 4.)

So even when it had a stupid plot like an alien surgically removing Spock's brain and having the crew chase it down so they can get it back into his body, it was entertaining.

But Spock's Brain was one of the worst episodes in the entire franchise.

That and space hippies.

Nia

@Nobodyman:

I still enjoyed the movie, but I got a kick out this (TLC, you will be pleased).

http://io9.com/star-trek-into-darkness-the-spoiler-faq-508927844

I liked the movie a lot, but yeah, this is pretty sweet

CosmicDebris

lol

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/23/jj-abrams-reveals-shower-of-evil-star-trek-into-darkness-deleted-cumberbatch-scene/

Nia

@CosmicDebris:

lol

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/23/jj-abrams-reveals-shower-of-evil-star-trek-into-darkness-deleted-cumberbatch-scene/

Good God, tumblr is exploding because of that shower scene.

CosmicDebris

:swanson:

Taggerung

Well i saw it and I loved it. I really liked the mix of the old universe with the new one. I didn't expect to see Khan but I think Cumberbatch did a great job making him seem like a threat in every way possible. It goes without saying that it's not a perfect movie but I think it was paced well and entertaining and emotional when it had to be. I don't think people who disliked the first film will suddenly come around with this one and expect the usual amount of hate that comes from messing with a franchise of that size, that FAQ basically starts off making complaints out of nothing so haters will hate.

But I liked it and will probably see it again while it's in theaters.

LUFFY1fan

@CosmicDebris:

lol

http://trekmovie.com/2013/05/23/jj-abrams-reveals-shower-of-evil-star-trek-into-darkness-deleted-cumberbatch-scene/

I saw that on Conan last night, I wonder where that scene would have even been placed?

Nia

@LUFFY#1:

I saw that on Conan last night, I wonder where that scene would have even been placed?

You don't NEED context to show Cumberbatch taking a shower. You just do it. No one will ever question it.

pyromonki

@Nia:

You don't NEED context to show Cumberbatch taking a shower. You just do it. No one will ever question it.

Given this movie, that could make for some hilarious scenes.

"KHAN!"

shower scene

Sarfallet

So I finally got around to seeing it… Pretty much what I expected. Worthless as a Star Trek film and passable as an action film in a scifi setting. Major things that bugged me where of course a person with a Sikh background being played by a white guy... Also mini-skirts. >_>
Time to wash my brain with some Corbomite Maneuver! /o/