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    Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...

    Chapter 884: Who

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    • Sereques
      Sereques @Miss Saturday
      @Miss Saturday last edited by
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      @Miss:

      No, I don't. Because that's not what the point of Luffy's journey is. Becoming King of the Pirates =/= being the most overpowered pirate in the world. We don't have any indication that Roger was stronger than the Emperors. Certainly near or at their level, yes, since he fought with a young Whitebeard and stood his ground, but not the most powerful person around. That wasn't his goal or Luffy's. The moment Luffy is able to 1 on 1 beat someone like Big Mom or Kaido is the moment all tension is immediately deflated from this series. Because then who else could possibly pose a bigger threat to him?
      The only people I can see Luffy going toe-to-toe with by himself are Akainu and Blackbeard (the latter being, in my opinion, the most inferior of the Emperors who relies heavily on his DF and nothing else). Again, I don't doubt that he WILL topple Kaido, but not with his raw strength alone.

      Didn't Oda say something about Akainu been the most powerful out there?

      IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU….

      Count Mario Seafarer33 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Roronoa Zacho
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        Kaidou has old wounds, BM just has scratches. If it weren't for her Picture of Carmel, she wouldn't have a scratch at all.
        Strengthwise I'd say Kaidou slightly > BM.
        I can only say for sure that the beast pirates will be a zoan-Festival, just like the CP9 was.
        Except for Pekoms I cannot remember any BM-pirate to have a zoan.
        So I guess Beast pirates will be zoans and whacky smile-zoans.

        There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

        But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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          In before Pound drinks his juice turns into Apple Juice Hulk and beats up Owen. Fight of an arc- Sanji vs Pound.

          Of course its a joke if anyone has hard time guessing 😉

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          • Count Mario
            Count Mario @Sereques
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            @Sereques:

            Didn't Oda say something about Akainu been the most powerful out there?

            I don't think so. I think he only said that Akainu would find One Piece in a month if he were the protagonist.

            Spoiler:

            "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

            Roronoa Zacho 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Roronoa Zacho
              Roronoa Zacho @Count Mario
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              @Count:

              I don't think so. I think he only said that Akainu would find One Piece in a month if he were the protagonist.

              I'd love to draw a fanfic of Akainu's quest for One Piece. ;D

              There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

              But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

              Count Mario 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • Count Mario
                Count Mario @Roronoa Zacho
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                @Roronoa:

                I'd love to draw a fanfic of Akainu's quest for One Piece. ;D

                !
                ! This still makes me laugh to this day.

                Spoiler:

                "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

                Roronoa Zacho 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Miss Saturday
                  Miss Saturday @ARTEMlS
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                  @Sereques:

                  Didn't Oda say something about Akainu been the most powerful out there?

                  I'm not sure. I wouldn't think so. Akainu got his ass dragged across the floor by an extremely wounded and dying Whitebeard; I highly doubt he could take on Big Mom or Kaido alone.
                  But hey, if Oda said so then guess I'm wrong.

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                  • Roronoa Zacho
                    Roronoa Zacho @Count Mario
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                    @Count:

                    !
                    ! This still makes me laugh to this day.

                    OK, that is pretty hilarious (and Garp's dream before he wakes up). Akainu would one-shot every arc-villain with a lot of collateral damage, destroying half of the Island each time. Each of his nakama would cry cause he/she lost beloved ones on those Islands. And Akainu would be like:"Stop whining and go on already, 'gotta find that treasure!!"

                    There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                    But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

                    Count Mario 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Count Mario
                      Count Mario @Roronoa Zacho
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                      @Roronoa:

                      Akainu would one-shot every arc-villain with a lot of collateral damage, destroying half of the Island each time. Each of his nakama would cry cause he/she lost beloved ones on those Islands. And Akainu would be like:"Stop whining and go on already, 'gotta find that treasure!!"

                      Now I'm reimagining a whole bunch of One Piece scenes rewritten with Marine protagonists.

                      Akainu thinks Aokiji is showing mercy to Ms. All Sunday by letting her the island on a boat, sparking a fight between them.

                      Akainu and Fujitora argue at Water 7 because Fujitora let his money get stolen. Akainu says that Fujitora can't take a single step back onto the ship until the latter brings back the heads of the Franky Family.

                      Kizaru kicks Akainu in the face relentlessly when the latter refuses to leave Totland. When Kizaru leaves, Akainu yells at him by saying that he does not respect the value of saving face.

                      Spoiler:

                      "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                      • Zkaiser
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                        How do you guys think the cake is going to affect Big Mom? Will Sanji whip out the Kamabakka Recipe of Sweetness and turn her into a nice person?

                        ΩMEGA PIRATES: ? Members

                        Captain: Zkaiser

                        Status: Dejected.

                        Threat Level: Pink

                        Goal: Prove the Elemental Haki Theory

                        Roronoa Zacho kevo_koma Miss Saturday 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Roronoa Zacho
                          Roronoa Zacho @Zkaiser
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                          @Zkaiser:

                          How do you guys think the cake is going to affect Big Mom? Will Sanji whip out the Kamabakka Recipe of Sweetness and turn her into a nice person?

                          My best guess is, that she really faints. Her Kids should be grateful to Sanji in the end, cause right now it seems she "assaults" any Island of Tottoland which Comes too Close to her. I can't speak for Perospero though.

                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                          @Count:

                          Now I'm reimagining a whole bunch of One Piece scenes rewritten with Marine protagonists.

                          Akainu thinks Aokiji is showing mercy to Ms. All Sunday by letting her the island on a boat, sparking a fight between them.

                          Akainu and Fujitora argue at Water 7 because Fujitora let his money get stolen. Akainu says that Fujitora can't take a single step back onto the ship until the latter brings back the heads of the Franky Family.

                          Kizaru kicks Akainu in the face relentlessly when the latter refuses to leave Totland. When Kizaru leaves, Akainu yells at him by saying that he does not respect the value of saving face.

                          Hm, sounds good. But I'd leave the SHs-cast as they are and just Exchange Akainu and Luffy. IDK how to handle the Ohara-flashback then, though. But that wouldn't be a big deal. Akainu would destroy EL without a BC, so we wouldn't even get the Chance to see Robin's flashback.

                          There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                          But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                          • kevo_koma
                            kevo_koma @Zkaiser
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                            @Zkaiser:

                            How do you guys think the cake is going to affect Big Mom? Will Sanji whip out the Kamabakka Recipe of Sweetness and turn her into a nice person?

                            She will most defnitely become happy after the cake. After which the SH will probably escape as she holds an impromptu tea party.

                            HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?

                            ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

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                            • gangonga
                              gangonga
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                              How do you guys think the cake is going to affect Big Mom? Will Sanji whip out the Kamabakka Recipe of Sweetness and turn her into a nice person?

                              Prediction time, maybe the kamabakka cake posseses genger-bending powers that will turn Big Mom into Big Daddy.

                              Thus making Luffy able to beat up Big Daddy, since the ultimate ability in One piece is being a woman, making her untouchable in battles(even unseen).

                              He will then proceed to defeat Big Daddy, making Luffy the ultimate Daddy (and pimp).

                              2 Zkaiser 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • Miss Saturday
                                Miss Saturday @Zkaiser
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                                @Zkaiser:

                                How do you guys think the cake is going to affect Big Mom? Will Sanji whip out the Kamabakka Recipe of Sweetness and turn her into a nice person?

                                She'll say it's the best cake she's ever eaten and fall back on her ass with a giant grin on her face. She'll order all her crew/children to stop attacking and that her chateau can be rebuilt. Pudding may or may not mess with her memories too (that's another big Chekhov's Gun). Take yer pickins

                                @gangonga:

                                Prediction time, maybe the kamabakka cake posseses genger-bending powers that will turn Big Mom into Big Daddy.

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                                  276112177620154ketounin @gangonga
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                                  @gangonga:

                                  Prediction time, maybe the kamabakka cake posseses genger-bending powers that will turn Big Mom into Big Daddy.

                                  Thus making Luffy able to beat up Big Daddy, since the ultimate ability in One piece is being a woman, making her untouchable in battles(even unseen).

                                  He will then proceed to defeat Big Daddy, making Luffy the ultimate Daddy (and pimp).

                                  +1 +15 additional characters

                                  What fun is destruction if no "precious" lives are lost?

                                  …I will create a monument to non-existence! ~Kefka~

                                  Meet my brute…........Meet the Garbage Pail Kids

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                                  • Zkaiser
                                    Zkaiser @gangonga
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                                    @gangonga:

                                    Prediction time, maybe the kamabakka cake posseses genger-bending powers that will turn Big Mom into Big Daddy.

                                    Thus making Luffy able to beat up Big Daddy, since the ultimate ability in One piece is being a woman, making her untouchable in battles(even unseen).

                                    He will then proceed to defeat Big Daddy, making Luffy the ultimate Daddy (and pimp).

                                    This sounds 100% plausible. I thought it would be a weight loss cake.

                                    ΩMEGA PIRATES: ? Members

                                    Captain: Zkaiser

                                    Status: Dejected.

                                    Threat Level: Pink

                                    Goal: Prove the Elemental Haki Theory

                                    Roronoa Zacho Sereques 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • Seafarer33
                                      Seafarer33 @Sereques
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                                      @Sereques:

                                      Didn't Oda say something about Akainu been the most powerful out there?

                                      There you are : quoted from the first post of Oda's interviews thread, apparently something he said in 2012 :

                                      "When creating a protagonist, it is important not to make him too strong.
                                      For example, if Akainu became the protagonist, I could put an end to ONE PIECE within a year." Sound Recording (2012)

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                                      • Roronoa Zacho
                                        Roronoa Zacho @Zkaiser
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                                        @Zkaiser:

                                        This sounds 100% plausible. I thought it would be a weight loss cake.

                                        Would be hilarious if Sanji's cake would turn BM into the Beauty Sanji has dreamt of when he found out that BigMom was a woman. Who knows what Kind of hax-hormone-recipes the Kamabakkas had in store?

                                        –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                        But, seriously, IMO she has to faint, cause if she really likes the cake and Keeps consciousness, what avoids her from still Holding Sanji captive? Would she let a cook go, who is best at his work?
                                        A pirate takes what a pirate wants, that goes especially for our Yonkous.

                                        There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                        But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                                        • Sereques
                                          Sereques @Zkaiser
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                                          @Zkaiser:

                                          This sounds 100% plausible. I thought it would be a weight loss cake.

                                          Zero chance. The ability to change gender is Ivankov's DF not some recipe.

                                          IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU….

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                                          • Roronoa Zacho
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                                            After LinLin ate the Semla during her tantrum at Elbaf she also fell asleep iirc. Would be a good Chance to escape for the SHs, cause by that time the big threats will be shrunk to Smoothie, Oven, Daifuku and Perospero (who might get handled by G66/FT-pirates).

                                            There are a lot of different opinions and views in this forum when it comes to One Piece.

                                            But can we all agree that Roger's ship, the Oro Jackson, had the best figurehead in the story so far?

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                                              Ace 4
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                                                TommyDunns @Ace 4
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                                                @•Ace•:

                                                spoilers.
                                                From user Den_Den_Mushi

                                                Thanks for posting spoilers in the chapter thread amigo.

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                                                • Razh
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                                                  Reported the post hours ago. Nice to see it got promptly edited. Oh wait, it's still here.

                                                  Originally Posted by Outerspec

                                                  Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

                                                  It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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                                                    BattleFranky69 @thegab
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                                                    @thegab:

                                                    They're running away partly because defeating BM isn't the reason they came to the island. IMO Luffy will go from defeating 2 yonkou commanders, to tag-teaming kaido, to eventually going 1 on 1 with blackbeard. That seems like fine progression, though it's just speculation.

                                                    If you feel people are ganging up on you here, then I apologize. Forums tend to be harsher on the new guys.

                                                    Getting angry won't help though, if you're serious about wanting to be in this community, I'd just ignore it and not feed it by being condescending back. You'll catch more flies with honey eh?

                                                    See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't. Like I said, I'm willing to play nice if everyone else does, but apparently that message is lost on at least one other person here. And I apologize as well, because you seem sincere enough to deserve it. I didn't get this kind of treatment when I was new on the other forum that closed down, so this wasn't the greatest ice breaker but I'm willing to give it another shot. But thanks for the heads-up, I just thought this was an inhospitable place but if there's a higher standard for new posters I guess it makes sense.

                                                    But I'm absolutely not the only one either having missed a key point or misunderstood what someone else was saying, so I want to clear things up if possible. For the last time, I'm not saying Luffy can, should, would, or needs to beat Big Mom. I'm saying you can't claim he's going to kick Kaido's teeth in if he can't even do it to Big Mom. I really, really, really do not understand how anyone got the former impression and kept harping on about it. That got pretty irksome so obviously it didn't improve my mood. If we can try to ask for better clarification instead, like "this is what I see when I read this, did you mean that?", that might help avoid issues in the future.

                                                    I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it. To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep. That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after. So what I find troubling about this is that people are arguing that the series is winding down when Luffy's ultimate opponent is still going to be insurmountably stronger than him unless he once again resorts to some kind of Super Sentai-style combination attack. Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it) since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there? I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                    Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor? The only other hostile Yonkou they haven't already messed with is Blackbeard and he's supposed to be the final villain, right? What comes before then? Even if they do usher in the end of the series immediately after, it's still too soon for Luffy as an individual to be at Yonkou-challenging level. It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                    K. Kira XXIII Kaido King of the Beasts Count Mario RomanceDawn Chrior 6 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                    • K. Kira XXIII
                                                      K. Kira XXIII @BattleFranky69
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                                                      @BattleFranky69:

                                                      See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't.

                                                      Is that me? Cause I can stop responding anytime.

                                                      I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it. To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep.

                                                      The images with the obscured building on the background are hints. However, the conversation between Momo and Luffy in Zou about his father death and how Kaido and the Shogun killed him makes it much more likely that Kaido will be in Wano. I would say, 90% chance he is there.

                                                      That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after.

                                                      No one is saying that after the team fight, Luffy will go immediately to defeat another emperor on his own. The fact that Kaido would be a team effort proves further that Luffy needs to grow stronger still. I see the overall "vs. 4 emperors" saga to be:

                                                      They humiliate and escape one emperor: Big Mom
                                                      They defeat in a group effort one emperor: Kaido
                                                      They get mentored by one emperor: Shanks
                                                      They defeat an emperor with their own strength: Blackbeard (final war)

                                                      Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it)

                                                      That's the thing, we will not get to a point where we have a clear confirmation that Luffy can take on Kaido, Big Mom or any emperor before their fight. Because if Luffy gets to that point the series is over. The emperors have unimaginable strength, Luffy being there will not make any of the upcoming fights enticing.

                                                      The story is around 70% completion, how is this an early stage? The story is begging to be over in my opinion. It was supposed to be a 5 year run, turn 20 and now Oda can barely say: "this starts this year" without running really close or missing the "deadline".

                                                      since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there?

                                                      If Kaido is defeated as a team, then Luffy has room to grow because he is not yet at the level of an emperor. Therefore if he were attacked by any of the remaining ones he would be in trouble unless he had all those allies with him. Given that he has room to grow, then meeting his mentor, Shanks, after achieving Kaido's defeat bring a full circle on their promise of reuniting once Luffy is a "big pirate".

                                                      I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                      Brooke? Well I'll disagree there, he is awesome.

                                                      Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor?

                                                      Any of the other emperors will do. It also depends on the focus the story will have, once Kaido is down, then hunting for the last poneglyph will be a thing and Wano is bound to have secrets from the Void Century, so it brings up a good opportunity to delve more into the Ancient Weapons and the lost history.

                                                      It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                      I would agree that a progressive take on Wano would be nice, however, how long are you expecting the series to be? Having Kaido's defeat be a two part arc will just extend the series even longer and Oda has clearly stated that he has stopped drawing everything he wants because he would never finish. Dressrosa was supposed to be a two island adventure, but it is this notion that made him put them into one.

                                                      The crew and allies will still need to go through Kaido's army, but I think it would be a nice contrast from Big Mom if Kaido was the type of leader that fought in the forefront.

                                                      Hidden:

                                                      Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                      Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                                                      Hidden:

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                                                      • No swords style best style
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                                                        @BattleFranky69:

                                                        But I'm absolutely not the only one either having missed a key point or misunderstood what someone else was saying, so I want to clear things up if possible. For the last time, I'm not saying Luffy can, should, would, or needs to beat Big Mom. I'm saying you can't claim he's going to kick Kaido's teeth in if he can't even do it to Big Mom. I really, really, really do not understand how anyone got the former impression and kept harping on about it. That got pretty irksome so obviously it didn't improve my mood. If we can try to ask for better clarification instead, like "this is what I see when I read this, did you mean that?", that might help avoid issues in the future.

                                                        Looking back at your post, I see now that I misinterpreted your comment about Luffy needing to beat BM before Kaido as a statement, since I personally believe that Kaido will be defeated in Wano, rather than comparing two things that you both think aren't going to happen. I apologize for my post responding to that, I completely missed your intentions.

                                                        I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it. To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep. That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after. So what I find troubling about this is that people are arguing that the series is winding down when Luffy's ultimate opponent is still going to be insurmountably stronger than him unless he once again resorts to some kind of Super Sentai-style combination attack. Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it) since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there? I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                        Well, I can't explain things as well as some of the other users on here, but the way I see it, Luffy will get stronger than he is now to the point where he will be able to clash with Kaido, but will still be significantly weaker than him. The best analogy I can think of would be the post-NL Oars fight. Suggesting that Pre-timeskip Luffy would be able to defeat a gigantic zombie with all of his combat skills that doesn't feel pain by himself after burning through the energy of 100 people would be laughable, but he was able to land the final blow and win due to the help of the other Straw Hats. Of course, Nightmare Luffy weakened Oars a lot. If Kaido is fought in Wano, the remaining Whitebeard pirates could take the role of wearing him down, as Momo and Cat Viper went to look for them, and the Supernovas could help as well. The thing is, to me at least, that the gap in strength between PT Luffy and Oars wasn't as large as the one between Luffy and Kaido now. Thus, Luffy will likely need to get a little stronger before tangling with his first Emperor, even with help, and there as ways such as awakening, better Armament Haki, or even a new gear (though I find that last one unlikely) for Luffy to get more powerful.

                                                        Also, could you elaborate on what you mean with Brook? It's considered rude to speak ill of the dead, yohohoho! 😛

                                                        Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor? The only other hostile Yonkou they haven't already messed with is Blackbeard and he's supposed to be the final villain, right? What comes before then? Even if they do usher in the end of the series immediately after, it's still too soon for Luffy as an individual to be at Yonkou-challenging level. It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                        I admittedly haven't given much thought to the time in between Wano and the Final War other than we might get an Elblaf arc, but a major reason I'm convinced Kaido will be the main antagonist in Wano is because I can't think of who else it would be. Even since PH, it's been clear what the SH's goals were in where and who they were going to fight. We knew DD was going to be fought in DR and that BM was the enemy that stole away Sanji. Zou was an exception as it wasn't really an action arc. No one other than Kaido has been getting significant attention, so if Kaido wasn't the big bad of Wano, who would be? Jack? I personally don't think it would be very suspenseful if all the Straw Hats, Supernovas, minks, Wano samurai/ninja, and possibly the WB remnants banded together in order to fight enemies that were no stronger than a guy who was stalemated by the mink leaders alone.

                                                        Also, I think someone pointed this out earlier, but in all the liberation arcs we've had so far, the oppressor fell in the place he was controlling. Arlong was defeated on the same island where Nami's home was, Croc was defeated in Alabasta, Enel was beaten in Skypedia (although it's arguable if that counts), Doffy was beaten in Dressrosa. As Kaido being in control of Wano has been stressed more than say, the Shogun running the show, I believe he will also follow the trend.

                                                        Hope I was able to explain my thoughts well enough that you could understand what I'm thinking, even if you don't agree with it. 🙂

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                                                        • Kaido King of the Beasts
                                                          Kaido King of the Beasts @BattleFranky69
                                                          @BattleFranky69 last edited by
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                                                          Kaido King of the Beasts
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                                                          @BattleFranky69:

                                                          See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't. Like I said, I'm willing to play nice if everyone else does, but apparently that message is lost on at least one other person here. And I apologize as well, because you seem sincere enough to deserve it. I didn't get this kind of treatment when I was new on the other forum that closed down, so this wasn't the greatest ice breaker but I'm willing to give it another shot. But thanks for the heads-up, I just thought this was an inhospitable place but if there's a higher standard for new posters I guess it makes sense.

                                                          But I'm absolutely not the only one either having missed a key point or misunderstood what someone else was saying, so I want to clear things up if possible. For the last time, I'm not saying Luffy can, should, would, or needs to beat Big Mom. I'm saying you can't claim he's going to kick Kaido's teeth in if he can't even do it to Big Mom. I really, really, really do not understand how anyone got the former impression and kept harping on about it. That got pretty irksome so obviously it didn't improve my mood. If we can try to ask for better clarification instead, like "this is what I see when I read this, did you mean that?", that might help avoid issues in the future.

                                                          I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it. To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep. That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after. So what I find troubling about this is that people are arguing that the series is winding down when Luffy's ultimate opponent is still going to be insurmountably stronger than him unless he once again resorts to some kind of Super Sentai-style combination attack. Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it) since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there? I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                          Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor? The only other hostile Yonkou they haven't already messed with is Blackbeard and he's supposed to be the final villain, right? What comes before then? Even if they do usher in the end of the series immediately after, it's still too soon for Luffy as an individual to be at Yonkou-challenging level. It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                          !

                                                          Oda is not the kind of writer to establish something like this and then subvert it by removing Kaido from Wano Country altogether. Wano is NOT freed, Momonosuke's character arc does NOT come to a close, if Kaido is not defeated on Wano. Not once in Chapter 818 or 819 is the Shogun ever put on a bigger pedestal than Kaido. In fact, he mostly seems to just be a helper. Every time the troubles on Wano are brought up, Kaido is involved. He's occupying Wano Country. He and the Shogun are oppressing its citizens. He was involved in the murder of Momonosuke's parents, and appeared in Momo's flashbacks on Zou.

                                                          Story trumps strength here, no matter how little strength you think the main characters should have. There is zero reason for Momo and the samurai to fight Kaido on some random ice island; if he is not involved in their struggle to take back Wano, then Wano's liberation will be nothing but hollow. It would be like if Crocodile left Alabasta to venture back into the New World and let his subordinates do Operation Utopia on their own. There is no satisfaction in a revolution if you cannot checkmate the king (of the beasts).

                                                          @BattleFranky69:

                                                          Let him tell his story and show the kind of progression we're used to. Let Luffy get kicked while he's down a couple of times like when he first fought Crocodile or where he tested Aokiji and failed. Let him earn a victory against a Yonkou and be able to carry the bragging rights without having to share it with the other Supernovas. How is he going to be Pirate King otherwise?

                                                          There's definitely going to be some Crocodile in the Kaido fight. But Crocodile was still taken out in the same arc. As for Aokiji…why can't Big Mom be Aokiji? I'd say the gap between Luffy and Big Mom now is less than the one between Luffy and Aokiji back then, probably. Luffy will learn a lot from Big Mom's displays of strength. He doesn't need to achieve anything significant in a fight against her to learn how to do better against Kaido. People tend to learn more from their failures than they do from their successes, after all.

                                                          Honestly, why wouldn't a teamup against Kaido be a good stepping stone in terms of taking down a Yonko? Blackbeard is going to be the final villain, and we know he's accumulating power to become the greatest pirate on the seas. I have money on him fighting and killing Shanks toward the end of the story. You are acting as though the only conceivable way for Luffy to take down Kaido is by doing it himself, but at the same time are arguing that that's impossible. But the former option provides a great stepping stone for when Luffy ends up fighting and taking down Blackbeard by himself, and maintains Blackbeard's threat level. And honestly, it's not too different from many of the battles we've seen before. Luffy's strengths lie in his fighting skills, yes, but his true biggest strength is getting people to follow him. He leads a crew that worked well enough in tandem to defeat Oars. He survived Marineford because he made people want to help him. He recruited a bunch of up-and-coming New World pirates to take down a pirate crew whose special officers outnumbered his crew. It shouldn't just be Luffy's physical strength that's in play in the fight against Kaido. It's also going to revolve around his ability to work with a massive alliance and have them running as well as his crew did on Thriller Bark. The pirate king is nothing without those around him.

                                                          Spoiler:

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                                                          • K. Kira XXIII
                                                            K. Kira XXIII
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                                                            K. Kira XXIII
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                                                            K. Kira XXIII
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                                                            I guess the question would be, what is Kaido's version of Tottoland, and how will the Straw Hats get to Wano, which would be Whole Cake Island.

                                                            Zunisha will probably make it easier for the other half of the crew. How does Luffy go through Kaido's territory? In my opinion it doesn't really matter because they would have proven capable of escaping from the main headquarters of Big Mom. Even calm her down and tell her to wait for her turn.

                                                            At the end of the day Kaido is searching for Momo. He killed his father, once Oden made clear he was not going to say anything about the voice of all things, the void century and Raftel. Unfortunately, Momo has the same ability as his father. An ability to also allows him to control an elephant carrying island. The Kozuki have the technique to carve Poneglyphs. Momo is the last survivor of his clan. Wano, in Kaido's eyes has the biggest clue on getting to Raftel.

                                                            Hidden:

                                                            Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                            Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                            • Count Mario
                                                              Count Mario @BattleFranky69
                                                              @BattleFranky69 last edited by
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                                                              @BattleFranky69:

                                                              See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't. Like I said, I'm willing to play nice if everyone else does, but apparently that message is lost on at least one other person here. And I apologize as well, because you seem sincere enough to deserve it. I didn't get this kind of treatment when I was new on the other forum that closed down, so this wasn't the greatest ice breaker but I'm willing to give it another shot. But thanks for the heads-up, I just thought this was an inhospitable place but if there's a higher standard for new posters I guess it makes sense.

                                                              I know that my last reply to you was very long, but I also apologized for any mistreatment you've been getting in a few paragraphs somewhere in the middle of the post while wanting to keep the discussion civil and respectful from both sides without the argument boiling down to personal condescension either. I totally get that you don't have much time to go on this forum and that you have to deal with a lot of people, but I hope you're not skipping through most of what I have been trying to say as if I an ignorant annoyance. I am only trying to express my honest thoughts and courtesy as a fellow dedicated One Piece fan.

                                                              I wouldn't say that there is a certain standard for new posters as if we're high school seniors trying to haze the freshmen for douchey fun, so much as that we scrutinize theories a lot more efficiently than other places like, for example, Oro Jackson. A user named Romance Dawn once said that other One Piece sites are akin to East Blue or even the Grand Line while Arlong Park Forums is the New World. The big leagues of dedicated One Piece fans and theorizers. Hence why there official translator users and Greg on this site frequently. We can be very friendly and patient, but we are not going to hold back in criticism unless one side wants to agree to disagree.

                                                              And for the record, I didn't even notice you were a new user at first lol. Joining dates don't matter to me, comment content does.

                                                              I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it.

                                                              The manga page also has trees shaped like Japanese bonsai trees.

                                                              Juxtapose the Feudal Japan-esque structure silhouette with how Kaido's design has Asian inspiration all over it from the oni club to the eastern dragon tattoo to the oni horns to the fu manchu mustache to the obi belt and to drinking sake gourds. It's clear that Oda is modeling Kaido and the vicinity he is in with an Asian/Japanese aesthetic. He probably wouldn't do that for him if wasn't going to be the main antagonist of what will pretty much be "Japan is Awesome: The Arc" in Wano Country.

                                                              To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep. That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after.

                                                              But… no one is saying that Luffy should be able to duplicate his tag-team victory against Kaido on his own right after Kaido is defeated. He can still get progressively stronger both during the fight with Kaido and in future arcs. And it still has a bearing on Luffy's individual strength because you can't have any scrubs in that teamup, you need top-tier guys likely right below Kaido to do the job. Also consider the possibility that Luffy may learn Awakening in Wano Country as Gear Fifth.

                                                              So what I find troubling about this is that people are arguing that the series is winding down when Luffy's ultimate opponent is still going to be insurmountably stronger than him unless he once again resorts to some kind of Super Sentai-style combination attack. Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it) since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there? I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                              It is not a bad move when there are other antagonists on par with Kaido and if the weaker protagonist only defeats Kaido through a teamup as a way to show how much the protagonist can still grow into becoming the strongest person.

                                                              Where do we go? We go from Luffy needing allies to take down a Yonko in a fight to only needing to rely on himself. That should be obvious. Look at how Luffy needed his whole crew to defeat a Pacifista and then being able to instantly stomp one with only Gear Second right out of post-timeskip. I'm not saying that we are going to get a leap in strength from Luffy THAT drastic again between Wano Country and the final fights of the series as if Kaido will be fodder by the final arc, definitely not. But there is still a bit of room for him to grow.

                                                              Also, stop disregarding what Oda said about how he doesn't want Luffy to defeat Kaido with a big punch. That is VERY important because it shows that Luffy will need to exploit some sort of weakness from Kaido rather than try to only overpower him. Which will allow Kaido to be defeated without asspulling Luffy into being Yonko level at the end of Wano Country.

                                                              Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor? The only other hostile Yonkou they haven't already messed with is Blackbeard and he's supposed to be the final villain, right? What comes before then?

                                                              Nothing big has to come soon after Kaido then. After Wano Country comes Elbaf, which does not necessarily need a big arc antagonist (it can be an unconventional arc like Jaya, Sabaody Archipelago, and Zou). And afterwards is pretty much Raftel and then the Final War. That is still enough time for the Straw Hats to get a bit stronger while not needing to worry about too many big fish still needing to be taken down. All they need to worry about at that point is the Admirals and Blackbeard.

                                                              Even if they do usher in the end of the series immediately after, it's still too soon for Luffy as an individual to be at Yonkou-challenging level. It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                              It's not anymore too soon than when Luffy first fought a Shichibukai and lost two times before winning the third round. Or fighting two Yonko Commanders in Totland. It is easy to get that after an arc where Luffy beats up Yonko Commanders you aim for him to tangle with Yonko themselves even if he can't take them on in a one-on-one fight.

                                                              Spoiler:

                                                              "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                              • RomanceDawn
                                                                RomanceDawn @BattleFranky69
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                                                                @BattleFranky69:

                                                                See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't. Like I said, I'm willing to play nice if everyone else does, but apparently that message is lost on at least one other person here. And I apologize as well, because you seem sincere enough to deserve it. I didn't get this kind of treatment when I was new on the other forum that closed down, so this wasn't the greatest ice breaker but I'm willing to give it another shot. But thanks for the heads-up, I just thought this was an inhospitable place but if there's a higher standard for new posters I guess it makes sense.

                                                                But I'm absolutely not the only one either having missed a key point or misunderstood what someone else was saying, so I want to clear things up if possible. For the last time, I'm not saying Luffy can, should, would, or needs to beat Big Mom. I'm saying you can't claim he's going to kick Kaido's teeth in if he can't even do it to Big Mom. I really, really, really do not understand how anyone got the former impression and kept harping on about it. That got pretty irksome so obviously it didn't improve my mood. If we can try to ask for better clarification instead, like "this is what I see when I read this, did you mean that?", that might help avoid issues in the future.

                                                                I looked at the page someone provided that supposedly proved Kaido was in Wano and didn't recall seeing anything to positively indicate it. To be fair, I'm usually either at work or about to crash at the end of the day when I get on here so I don't always have time to look through them thoroughly if I suddenly get called away or am half-asleep. That's really the least significant issue anyway; Even if Kaido is on Wano, even if they somehow manage to defeat him, that has no bearing on Luffy's individual strength and that's something people seem to be ignoring as well as the complementary issues that go along with it. Beating a nearly invincible opponent using the combined power of a dozen weaker fighters is not a stepping-stone to enhancing someone's strength to the point where they can duplicate that feat on their own immediately after. So what I find troubling about this is that people are arguing that the series is winding down when Luffy's ultimate opponent is still going to be insurmountably stronger than him unless he once again resorts to some kind of Super Sentai-style combination attack. Until Luffy's at the point where Kaido or really, ANY Yonkou can be tangled with on an even footing, the series ain't ready to be over, and taking down one of the series' strongest antagonists at this early stage is a bad move storytelling-wise (let's not insult Oda if we can help it) since if you've done that, again, where do you go from there? I'm not opposed to it happening, just not this early on. I don't know exactly how Oda's going to resolve the Wano arc but even if he does it in the way being described, it'll be a bad move. But then, he didn't really think Brook through that well and that guy's still hanging around so it wouldn't be the first time he's made a misstep.

                                                                Besides the Marines, what other opponents will then be able to hold a candle to Luffy after a Yonkou has gone down and his name is the one on the front page as the victor? The only other hostile Yonkou they haven't already messed with is Blackbeard and he's supposed to be the final villain, right? What comes before then? Even if they do usher in the end of the series immediately after, it's still too soon for Luffy as an individual to be at Yonkou-challenging level. It makes way more sense for them to proceed through Wano and other parts of Kaido's territory before confronting the big man himself. So even if Kaido is on Wano there's nothing tying him there. He could get called away for something as minor as having Caribou's information being revealed. It's also hardly worth having built up his huge Zoan army if he's right there among them and not a dark stranger in the distance that they have to struggle through his defenses to reach. I'd like to think Oda's a better storyteller than he's being made out to be here.

                                                                Did you come in from Neogaf? Anyone talking about an ex-forum seems to have fled that place. And no the discussion here is on a completely different level. Same for Resetera and its fleeing Neogafers. I love the posters at both places but its true.

                                                                Anyway about Big Mom being untouchable but then Kaidou being the one to receive a beating. Luffy got to throw one attack at Big Mom, one 4th Gear strike that Big Mom punched away pretty effortlessly. Just because we saw one instance of Luffy failing to harm Linlin it does not mean that Luffy eventually harming Kaidou is inconsistent. The difference is that we are most likely going to see Luffy try and try again fighting whole heartedly against Kaidou to eventually understand what makes him seemingly invulnerable. If the goal of this arc was to take down Big Mom we would get those consistent rematches steadily figuring out her powers and abilities until Luffy fully over came them. For now that very thing is happening with Katakuri, a very reasonable stepping stone to an Emperor.

                                                                Luffy will not be ending her pirate career this arc, thats for sure, but there could still be a moment where Luffy gets a shot in that makes everyone stop in their tracks. Like "woah did that just happen?"

                                                                And about Kaidou residing in Wano. The very first time we heard(read?) his voice he was in a snow land in a building shaped like a Japanese castle. He was at Wano during that time and he will be back at Wano when its time to throw down.

                                                                Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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                                                                • Chrior
                                                                  Chrior @BattleFranky69
                                                                  @BattleFranky69 last edited by
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                                                                  @BattleFranky69:

                                                                  See, now you I can respect, but a certain other someone on here, I don't. Like I said, I'm willing to play nice if everyone else does, but apparently that message is lost on at least one other person here. And I apologize as well, because you seem sincere enough to deserve it. I didn't get this kind of treatment when I was new on the other forum that closed down, so this wasn't the greatest ice breaker but I'm willing to give it another shot. But thanks for the heads-up, I just thought this was an inhospitable place but if there's a higher standard for new posters I guess it makes sense.

                                                                  No need to be so personal there. I'm sorry for my earlier post calling you a troll. But after a few years here, it's not a new thing to see someone join and start hijacking threads with discussions completely outside the norm of the this forum and presenting wild theories as if they were the best thing ever while dismissing the criticism to the point of stubbornness. Now I was about to come in here and sugest you moderate your behaviour, but it seems like that already happened, so I will not do so. I only talked like that in the first place because of the way you were treating other posters. It was just coming off condescendingly and aggressively, and honestly, it just felt like one massive attention grab trolling attempt. Since I think the tone of the discussion has calmed down in the meantime and you and others have admitted they misunderstood one another, I also apologise for what I said earlier.

                                                                  But I still think that you need to take a step back before you continue with the discussion. This is indeed a different kind of forum, with higher standards of argumentation and understanding of the series and Oda's thought process (even if it's just from Greg's personal knowledge, that is a big boost). There are a number of respected members that greatly contribute to the OP community in different ways, from redon or sandman's stream of info and first-hand contact with all OP related products and events, to Stephen who went on to become the official translator for Viz, to the guys who created the One Piece Podcast, to Greg's incredible knack for finding everything regarding this series and his contact with people from Shonen Jump and One Piece, to great posters who offer pseudo-dissertations on all kinds of developments in the chapter threads, like those arguing with you right now. So please, do enjoy the forum and take advantage from all the good stuff it is able to give to the community and have fun discussing here.

                                                                  But also realise that thanks to all of these people pooling their thoughts together, this place can work more like a scientific community, in that although everyone has different tastes, wishes, and thoughts on the story, we all reach a sort of mutual understanding of what Oda wants to go for and how his long term plans look like. There is a core scaffold which is generally agreed upon and is built up due to many people's theories and developments carefully observed over the years. And on top of that scaffold, smaller details can be discussed with more or less evidence behind them, which is where most discussion takes place. In this case, the scaffold that the vast majority of AP goers agree to is the fact that the story is following a path towards a mini-Marineford large scale conflict between the Ninja-Pirate-Samurai-Mink Alliance and the Animal Kingdom Pirates/Beasts Pirates (whatever translation you follow), which will take place at Wano, culminating with Kaido's defeat and the opening of Wano's borders. This should happen, ideally, during the Reverie, which is supposed to start after we're out of Tottoland. Then there are numerous points of discussion around this subject, like what's going to happen with Caribou? Could Blackbeard come in at the end of the arc and grab some Devil Fruits? How strong is the shogun going to be? Who will even fight Kaido? Just how is he going to be defeated? But the basic facts of the matter have been arrived upon long ago, due to build up being laid since at least Punk Hazard. And you should understand that someone new coming in here and flat out saying that all of that is just what a bunch of posters WANT to see happen can be taken the wrong way.

                                                                  I suggest you read up on why people here hold this as near fact set in stone and do not agree with what you are saying before proceeding to launch your arguments again and again and again at a wall. Read Greg's theories, which are the most concise and brilliant things you can possibly get out of the OP community and form the basis of what most of us believe will happen (hint: he's the author of the infamous "cake theory" about the current arc!). Read some past discussion threads. Maybe in the bigger arc threads instead of having to read long and at many times uninteresting and annoying chapter discussions. But most of all, do not approach the debate as people ganging up on you. That is not at all what is happening. Come into it with the will to learn, improve your ideas about this incredible story and also contribute to other people's understanding of it.

                                                                  And just for a quick contribution to that discussion, OP should not have much more than a decade left. Smaller arcs now last around a whole year. Wano will not be a small arc, either in my view or yours. It could probably last 2 whole years. The final war, according to Oda's original plan (which he will mainly follow, as he said he will end the series just like he planned from the beginning) is supposed to last a fifth of the entire series. If OP goes on to be around 30 years long, that makes the final war last around 6 years. 6+2=8 years. If there is around a decade left, that leaves something like 2-4 years (let's be friendly to Oda and his underestimation of arc lengths). In that time, we still have to see Vegapunk and Kuma's fate, see Elbaf, get the 4th road poneglyph, actually find Raftel, have Blackbeard further built up as a final villain, among a bunch of other things I can't remember right now. How can you expect even more stepping stone arcs in this short period of time left? How much longer can Kaido's defeat and Luffy's growth be pushed into the future? The four emperors are the 4 strongest people in the planet. Blackbeard is one of them. If he is to be the final villain and if Luffy is to struggle, he cannot defeat another emperor single handedly before. The level of the yonko is the top level of this series (bar some last minute will of D power up sort of stuff which might take BB and Luffy to a slightly superior level, who knows). Luffy will reach it in the closing moments of the story. But the emperors must fall before that for there to be chaos and a final war. And since we entered the New World, the story has been building up the first one to fall: Kaido. And for that to happen, the alliance will need: Straw Hat Pirates, Heart Pirates, the Mink tribe, the samurai rebels, the Whitebeard remnants, possibly the Kid, On Air and Hawkins Pirates, possibly Gecko Moriah, possibly Weevil! And, although it is not my own opinion, even the Grand Fleet. You ask how we can go from "not putting a scratch on Big Mom and running away" to "making Kaido a bitch" but that's not what will happen. What we're saying is we will go from "supposedly stealthy mission to rescue Sanji and grab poneglyphs with only half the crew" (and even so managing to leave Mama's territory and crew in shambles, despite not hurting the lady herself) to "invading Kaido's base and facing his crew with a massive alliance of forces, including betrayals and big team-up fights". Sorry if I don't answer in the future, I have to study for a physiology exam tomorrow and the new chapter will be out in the meantime, so this discussion will probably die before I even see your reply. Welcome to Arlong Park ^^

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                                                                    BattleFranky69 @RomanceDawn
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                                                                    Aye carumba, ass-loads of stuff to respond to, good thing I have a four-day weekend. But I'm delighted that we've all been able to calm down, re-evaluate things and come to a somewhat better understanding. I'm going to give everyone a blank slate and be reflective on myself to ensure that my points are more clear. I know that when I really get going, what sounds good in my head doesn't always translate into words on the page.

                                                                    I migrated from mangafox forums that shut down in the last week or so (almost at the same time we lost Miiverse…I guess good things really do die in threes). My username was BattleFranky but when I signed on here, that was taken so I had to do something tacky to make the name stay mostly the same. XP

                                                                    I think now that we've reached a point that makes sense, and I can see there were some light concessions, the discussion can proceed productively.

                                                                    I think I should have taken a few steps back before I made my points. Each Yonkou seems to have a big territory. I know when they were first told about what it would take to get to them, it was like a bull's eye on a target, where each concentric circle around the bull's eye would have to be overcome before they could reach that spot. Big Mom's arc here allowed them to bypass that and, I think very usefully, showed us the depths of strength that both a Yonkou and their top commanders possess. Even if there was no intention of winning big, just a glimpse of them served the purpose of terrifying the crew with their crushing might. They truly are a force that keeps even the Admirals at bay, and justifiably so in spades.

                                                                    That said, because Wano is merely ONE of Kaido's spaces on his chessboard, he need not necessarily personally be there at the time the crew arrives (whether that means the advance team, or Luffy's group; it wouldn't be the first time his half of the group showed up late to the party). If the argument is that Oda won't double-dip (at least not within the New World; lots of what's happened since the time skip parallels the Paradise side of the Grand Line very closely), then them encountering the big bad right off the bat would be doing just that. If they have to make their way through his defenses, moving from place to place (where's the wonder of exploration otherwise? Don't get me wrong, I like the fighting just fine, but still, not enough of the former going on) then that would set this Yonkou arc apart from Big Mom's and that would suit the story just fine, it would make it feel like they've EARNED it rather than being handed it like they were with the BM family.

                                                                    What I'm still failing to grasp is the point of Luffy and co. beating a Yonkou at this point in the story. Right now Luffy is indisputably peak Shichibukai level and honestly, after toppling Doflamingo and with everything after this arc, his bounty should be well over a billion and I'm not sure any two supernovas combined can reach that (I haven't checked lately so I could be wrong). But that level of bounty, if we only regarded it in terms of strength, still inevitably doesn't hold a candle to a Yonkou. Watching them struggle against one like Big Mom makes them look very clearly like a joke. Her top commander really does look to be the appropriate level for them to continue tangling with. Just like how they would fight all the numbered agents before getting to Croc in Baroque Works, or fighting the CP9 agents rather than the Admirals or Vice-Admirals at the time, there's a progression that needs to be worked up through before they get there. Taking down a Yonkou now leaves very, very few opponents left that would make appropriate-level foes for the typical one-on-one fights to which we're accustomed.

                                                                    Giving Kaido an actual army that has to be toppled before reaching him in a stronghold of his own making rather than a stolen one like the occupied Wano, not only gives that delay and progression the opportunity to play out but also would feel more climactic once they reach it. If at that point, they ganged up on him and somehow managed to nakama-power his butt, they will at least have gone through the rites and earned it. By that point, they would have taken the time to tangle with the remainder of the appropriate-level enemies (possibly even some distraction arcs like Drum before actually going to Alabasta like they were making a beeline for before) so that if Kaido does fall, the time to usher in the end of the series will feel like it's been reached. That's a way to avoid there being a big vacuum of nothing happening and give Luffy opportunities to get stronger in the meantime before actually reaching Kaido so it's less of a pathetic joke to be going up against him, even if Luffy does still require an army of his own to bolster him. If he's at the level he's currently at and is nothing compared to Big Mom, why would we want to see that happen with Kaido too?

                                                                    Those would all set the Kaido arc apart from Big Mom's which I seem to be getting the impression is what everybody wants, and I agree. I just disagree that the climax is appropriately timed IF Kaido is encountered immediately upon arriving at Wano. Blowing Oda's load at that early stage would cheapen the Yonkou embarrassingly. Now, if the Crocodile analogy holds up, Kaido could be encountered in Wano, kick the ever-loving crap out of everybody, say he's bored and too good for that place and go to one of his other favorite islands, where they pursue him after recovering and regrouping, or going on a side quest to get stronger or something. If they want to take THAT kind of time before their deus ex machina victory over him, I'm all for it. I just got the sense there was WAY too freaking big of a rush to get there.

                                                                    Oh, and in all seriousness, what if the cake they're going to feed Big Mom is some kind of massive emetic (vomit-inducer) or appetite suppressant where it forcefully shrinks her stomach and curbs her appetite (like a recipe for gastric bypass without requiring surgery)? That would sure stick it to her and provide a distraction such that she wouldn't be able to think about anything else but reversing it rather than pursuing the Straw Hats.

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                                                                      PirateHunter @BattleFranky69
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                                                                      @BattleFranky69:

                                                                      ! Aye carumba, ass-loads of stuff to respond to, good thing I have a four-day weekend. But I'm delighted that we've all been able to calm down, re-evaluate things and come to a somewhat better understanding. I'm going to give everyone a blank slate and be reflective on myself to ensure that my points are more clear. I know that when I really get going, what sounds good in my head doesn't always translate into words on the page.
                                                                      ! I migrated from mangafox forums that shut down in the last week or so (almost at the same time we lost Miiverse…I guess good things really do die in threes). My username was BattleFranky but when I signed on here, that was taken so I had to do something tacky to make the name stay mostly the same. XP
                                                                      ! I think now that we've reached a point that makes sense, and I can see there were some light concessions, the discussion can proceed productively.
                                                                      ! I think I should have taken a few steps back before I made my points. Each Yonkou seems to have a big territory. I know when they were first told about what it would take to get to them, it was like a bull's eye on a target, where each concentric circle around the bull's eye would have to be overcome before they could reach that spot. Big Mom's arc here allowed them to bypass that and, I think very usefully, showed us the depths of strength that both a Yonkou and their top commanders possess. Even if there was no intention of winning big, just a glimpse of them served the purpose of terrifying the crew with their crushing might. They truly are a force that keeps even the Admirals at bay, and justifiably so in spades.
                                                                      ! That said, because Wano is merely ONE of Kaido's spaces on his chessboard, he need not necessarily personally be there at the time the crew arrives (whether that means the advance team, or Luffy's group; it wouldn't be the first time his half of the group showed up late to the party). If the argument is that Oda won't double-dip (at least not within the New World; lots of what's happened since the time skip parallels the Paradise side of the Grand Line very closely), then them encountering the big bad right off the bat would be doing just that. If they have to make their way through his defenses, moving from place to place (where's the wonder of exploration otherwise? Don't get me wrong, I like the fighting just fine, but still, not enough of the former going on) then that would set this Yonkou arc apart from Big Mom's and that would suit the story just fine, it would make it feel like they've EARNED it rather than being handed it like they were with the BM family.
                                                                      ! What I'm still failing to grasp is the point of Luffy and co. beating a Yonkou at this point in the story. Right now Luffy is indisputably peak Shichibukai level and honestly, after toppling Doflamingo and with everything after this arc, his bounty should be well over a billion and I'm not sure any two supernovas combined can reach that (I haven't checked lately so I could be wrong). But that level of bounty, if we only regarded it in terms of strength, still inevitably doesn't hold a candle to a Yonkou. Watching them struggle against one like Big Mom makes them look very clearly like a joke. Her top commander really does look to be the appropriate level for them to continue tangling with. Just like how they would fight all the numbered agents before getting to Croc in Baroque Works, or fighting the CP9 agents rather than the Admirals or Vice-Admirals at the time, there's a progression that needs to be worked up through before they get there. Taking down a Yonkou now leaves very, very few opponents left that would make appropriate-level foes for the typical one-on-one fights to which we're accustomed.
                                                                      ! Giving Kaido an actual army that has to be toppled before reaching him in a stronghold of his own making rather than a stolen one like the occupied Wano, not only gives that delay and progression the opportunity to play out but also would feel more climactic once they reach it. If at that point, they ganged up on him and somehow managed to nakama-power his butt, they will at least have gone through the rites and earned it. By that point, they would have taken the time to tangle with the remainder of the appropriate-level enemies (possibly even some distraction arcs like Drum before actually going to Alabasta like they were making a beeline for before) so that if Kaido does fall, the time to usher in the end of the series will feel like it's been reached. That's a way to avoid there being a big vacuum of nothing happening and give Luffy opportunities to get stronger in the meantime before actually reaching Kaido so it's less of a pathetic joke to be going up against him, even if Luffy does still require an army of his own to bolster him. If he's at the level he's currently at and is nothing compared to Big Mom, why would we want to see that happen with Kaido too?
                                                                      ! Those would all set the Kaido arc apart from Big Mom's which I seem to be getting the impression is what everybody wants, and I agree. I just disagree that the climax is appropriately timed IF Kaido is encountered immediately upon arriving at Wano. Blowing Oda's load at that early stage would cheapen the Yonkou embarrassingly. Now, if the Crocodile analogy holds up, Kaido could be encountered in Wano, kick the ever-loving crap out of everybody, say he's bored and too good for that place and go to one of his other favorite islands, where they pursue him after recovering and regrouping, or going on a side quest to get stronger or something. If they want to take THAT kind of time before their deus ex machina victory over him, I'm all for it. I just got the sense there was WAY too freaking big of a rush to get there.
                                                                      ! Oh, and in all seriousness, what if the cake they're going to feed Big Mom is some kind of massive emetic (vomit-inducer) or appetite suppressant where it forcefully shrinks her stomach and curbs her appetite (like a recipe for gastric bypass without requiring surgery)? That would sure stick it to her and provide a distraction such that she wouldn't be able to think about anything else but reversing it rather than pursuing the Straw Hats.

                                                                      I think that most of what you've said in this post is relatively uncontroversial, at least in addressing reasonable progression for the SHs. Why can't Wano be the setting for the type of narrative we're imagining here (following an Arabasta-esque arc)? I think Big Mom is unique in having such a deliberately curated territory. Kaido doesn't seem to give a shit about anything, so I think Wano serves the roll of being his stronghold perfectly well. It would be a dislocating departure from form to have a sprawling Wano kuni arc that doesn't include a confrontation with Kaido. I'm not a huge fan of it, but Oda has been somewhat casual in pitting Luffy against Yonko commanders in this arc, so I don't think a victory over Kaido's subordinates would be sufficiently climactic. Also, the scale of the operation (including the alliance and presumably the remnants of the WB pirates), and the motivations/ire of those involved (specifically Momonosuke) sort of requires Kaido's defeat. Defeating Kaido should be one of the most climactic moments in the story so far (in deference to his position as a yonko and the significance of defeating an enemy of that caliber), which demands appropriate progression, but I don't see why that can't happen in Wano (or during one of the many sub-plots I'm sure will punctuate the arc). In any case, what you said at the end of your second-to-last paragraph seems to me to be a reasonable prediction, that I don't think anyone has major objections to, except that it isn't really necessary to hype up Kaido any more than he already has been at this point. He trashed Luffy's peers (Kid, Hawkins, Apoo) and Big Mom/Whitebeard have sufficiently demonstrated the immensity of the task. Of course I expect Kaido to do some intimidating things, but it would be strange if upon landing in Wano, the entire alliance is immediately destroyed by Kaido. Again, that would be a major departure from form.

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                                                                        @BattleFranky69:

                                                                        Give me one good reason to think that Kaido is personally on Wano. Just one. I've not heard one yet that was convincing.

                                                                        His HQ is shaped exactly like Onigashima from the most famous Japanese folktale located on what is probably a wlnter island of what will probably make up Wano's 4 seasonal islands.

                                                                        No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                          PirateHunter @Greg
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                                                                          @Greg:

                                                                          His HQ is shaped exactly like Onigashima from the most famous Japanese folktale located on what is probably a wlnter island of what will probably make up Wano's 4 seasonal islands.

                                                                          Aha, actual insight.

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                                                                            BattleFranky69 @PirateHunter
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                                                                            @PirateHunter:

                                                                            I think that most of what you've said in this post is relatively uncontroversial, at least in addressing reasonable progression for the SHs. Why can't Wano be the setting for the type of narrative we're imagining here (following an Arabasta-esque arc)? I think Big Mom is unique in having such a deliberately curated territory. Kaido doesn't seem to give a shit about anything, so I think Wano serves the roll of being his stronghold perfectly well. It would be a dislocating departure from form to have a sprawling Wano kuni arc that doesn't include a confrontation with Kaido. I'm not a huge fan of it, but Oda has been somewhat casual in pitting Luffy against Yonko commanders in this arc, so I don't think a victory over Kaido's subordinates would be sufficiently climactic. Also, the scale of the operation (including the alliance and presumably the remnants of the WB pirates), and the motivations/ire of those involved (specifically Momonosuke) sort of requires Kaido's defeat. Defeating Kaido should be one of the most climactic moments in the story so far (in deference to his position as a yonko and the significance of defeating an enemy of that caliber), which demands appropriate progression, but I don't see why that can't happen in Wano (or during one of the many sub-plots I'm sure will punctuate the arc). In any case, what you said at the end of your second-to-last paragraph seems to me to be a reasonable prediction, that I don't think anyone has major objections to, except that it isn't really necessary to hype up Kaido any more than he already has been at this point. He trashed Luffy's peers (Kid, Hawkins, Apoo) and Big Mom/Whitebeard have sufficiently demonstrated the immensity of the task. Of course I expect Kaido to do some intimidating things, but it would be strange if upon landing in Wano, the entire alliance is immediately destroyed by Kaido. Again, that would be a major departure from form.

                                                                            What is the point of saying these Yonkou control large territories if we're not going to get even a glimpse of it, if it's all going to stop at Wano? It's a waste of an opportunity, to say the least (yes we can still see them but without the looming threat it loses the excitement of that). And it doesn't need to be climactic having them fight through his commanders to get to him, it's when they finally do get to him that it should be climactic, which is the point when he's the big boss of that crew, isn't it? Caesar Clown (loser) being beaten was hardly climactic at all but when we got to see Doflamingo fall, damn if it wasn't ultra climactic. Since Big Mom's not going down (in a fair fight, at least), there's no need for, or expectation for, this arc to be climactic. But the more buildup we get, the more satisfying the payoff, I would say. So having this preview of what it's like to futz with a Yonkou in what amounts to a prison break is the perfect starting point for an actual mission to dethrone a Yonkou once they've got a better plan than Bege's lame one, for example.

                                                                            And if you're correct about the scale of this gargantuan alliance, cramming it all together at once is going to be nightmarish. For one thing, it's already a bit irritating that the crew has to split up like this so frequently now, and if they're going to toss a huge amount of people together at the same time it's going to be like some of the worst parts of Bleach (although to be fair, we'll know most of these OP characters, whereas in Bleach they threw dozens of strangers at us in a short duration.) What makes the most sense narrative-wise is to parse it out, gain allies jumping in little by little, getting closer and closer to where Kaido's downfall will take place, have everyone positioned wherever they need to be (maybe have a ship offshore waiting to fire weapons, and the main force attacking directly, etc.) One place having all this happen is going to look like a wasteland by the time they get done tearing it all apart. It's not usually Oda's style to completely devastate a place once the fighting is over (at least not friendly places; to hell with Enies Lobby after that Buster Call) so it would be more expected of him to have a smaller skirmish occur in Wano and, regardless of where they go in pursuit of the conclusion of this crusade, end in Kaido's stronghold where he not only gets beat but watches his castle crumble all around him.

                                                                            For the sake of Oda delivering a cohesive string of events, he'll have to pace it if he's going to continue to impress us as he's done for over a decade now. I mean, does this not sound like something that could work out nicely?
                                                                            1. Wano, reunion with SH, Law crew and alliance with native Wano peeps, fight off Kaido's Zoan blokes and let them see just how serious these worst generation punks are firsthand
                                                                            2. Second island in getting closer to Kaido's stronghold, meet up with Kidd/Apoo/Hawkins alliance, build a veritable armada of supernova crews, maybe get sidetracked looking for something the new guys have their eye on that can help turn the tide
                                                                            3. Get interrupted by X Drake, fight him and convince him to switch sides, maybe he wanted that all along and just needed to be convinced he could find others who were strong enough to actually accomplish the feat
                                                                            4. Get to Kaido's stronghold, have trump card of Luffy's armada from Dressrosa show up to help in the last stand to make a path to Kaido for the main fighters while the remaining Zoan SMILE guys are beaten back

                                                                            A lot cleaner than trying to cram all of that into Wano, no?

                                                                            And I forgot to address this before, when I criticized Brook, my main issue with him is being a swordsman really steps on Zoro's toes and I'm not too keen on that. I actually like him a lot as a character but I wish he'd use musical instruments as weapons instead of a blade. Or even using a violin bow as an improvised sword would be better, IMO, just so Zoro would be the unique swordsman in the group. Just a tad bothersome but whatevs, he hardly gets any screen time anyway. But at this point I'm prone to get extremely irritable with people who've argued that Kinemon or another samurai will be joining the crew for that reason.

                                                                            @Greg:

                                                                            His HQ is shaped exactly like Onigashima from the most famous Japanese folktale located on what is probably a wlnter island of what will probably make up Wano's 4 seasonal islands.

                                                                            I wouldn't have known that. I'm not that up to speed on the folklore of Japan itself, just what's adapted into their stuff now and whatever little tidbits I hear about as DVD extras or on forums like this.

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                                                                              @BattleFranky69:

                                                                              I wouldn't have known that. I'm not that up to speed on the folklore of Japan itself, just what's adapted into their stuff now and whatever little tidbits I hear about as DVD extras or on forums like this.

                                                                              No worries mate. Not that everyone here is up on that stuff. Even posters here. But that could be alleviated if you follow me on Twitter or YouTube 😉

                                                                              No matter where you go, there you are.

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                                                                                @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                ! What is the point of saying these Yonkou control large territories if we're not going to get even a glimpse of it, if it's all going to stop at Wano? It's a waste of an opportunity, to say the least (yes we can still see them but without the looming threat it loses the excitement of that). And it doesn't need to be climactic having them fight through his commanders to get to him, it's when they finally do get to him that it should be climactic, which is the point when he's the big boss of that crew, isn't it? Caesar Clown (loser) being beaten was hardly climactic at all but when we got to see Doflamingo fall, damn if it wasn't ultra climactic. Since Big Mom's not going down (in a fair fight, at least), there's no need for, or expectation for, this arc to be climactic. But the more buildup we get, the more satisfying the payoff, I would say. So having this preview of what it's like to futz with a Yonkou in what amounts to a prison break is the perfect starting point for an actual mission to dethrone a Yonkou once they've got a better plan than Bege's lame one, for example.
                                                                                ! And if you're correct about the scale of this gargantuan alliance, cramming it all together at once is going to be nightmarish. For one thing, it's already a bit irritating that the crew has to split up like this so frequently now, and if they're going to toss a huge amount of people together at the same time it's going to be like some of the worst parts of Bleach (although to be fair, we'll know most of these OP characters, whereas in Bleach they threw dozens of strangers at us in a short duration.) What makes the most sense narrative-wise is to parse it out, gain allies jumping in little by little, getting closer and closer to where Kaido's downfall will take place, have everyone positioned wherever they need to be (maybe have a ship offshore waiting to fire weapons, and the main force attacking directly, etc.) One place having all this happen is going to look like a wasteland by the time they get done tearing it all apart. It's not usually Oda's style to completely devastate a place once the fighting is over (at least not friendly places; to hell with Enies Lobby after that Buster Call) so it would be more expected of him to have a smaller skirmish occur in Wano and, regardless of where they go in pursuit of the conclusion of this crusade, end in Kaido's stronghold where he not only gets beat but watches his castle crumble all around him.
                                                                                ! For the sake of Oda delivering a cohesive string of events, he'll have to pace it if he's going to continue to impress us as he's done for over a decade now. I mean, does this not sound like something that could work out nicely?
                                                                                1. Wano, reunion with SH, Law crew and alliance with native Wano peeps, fight off Kaido's Zoan blokes and let them see just how serious these worst generation punks are firsthand
                                                                                2. Second island in getting closer to Kaido's stronghold, meet up with Kidd/Apoo/Hawkins alliance, build a veritable armada of supernova crews, maybe get sidetracked looking for something the new guys have their eye on that can help turn the tide
                                                                                3. Get interrupted by X Drake, fight him and convince him to switch sides, maybe he wanted that all along and just needed to be convinced he could find others who were strong enough to actually accomplish the feat
                                                                                4. Get to Kaido's stronghold, have trump card of Luffy's armada from Dressrosa show up to help in the last stand to make a path to Kaido for the main fighters while the remaining Zoan SMILE guys are beaten back
                                                                                ! A lot cleaner than trying to cram all of that into Wano, no?
                                                                                ! And I forgot to address this before, when I criticized Brook, my main issue with him is being a swordsman really steps on Zoro's toes and I'm not too keen on that. I actually like him a lot as a character but I wish he'd use musical instruments as weapons instead of a blade. Or even using a violin bow as an improvised sword would be better, IMO, just so Zoro would be the unique swordsman in the group. Just a tad bothersome but whatevs, he hardly gets any screen time anyway. But at this point I'm prone to get extremely irritable with people who've argued that Kinemon or another samurai will be joining the crew for that reason.
                                                                                ! I wouldn't have known that. I'm not that up to speed on the folklore of Japan itself, just what's adapted into their stuff now and whatever little tidbits I hear about as DVD extras or on forums like this.

                                                                                I agree with most of what you've said, but if, for example, Greg is right about Wano being composed of four different islands, I think the scopes fit. In other words, we can have the necessary progression/separate-but-eventually-joining storylines without feeling crammed. To me, the extreme of what you're describing is Oda taking us on a 10-year journey through increasingly significant islands in Kaido's territory (which again, may be less substantial since he doesn't seem like the most enterprising yonko) culminating in some grand finale. I do think that's too much investment for this conflict, or at least I can easily imagine Oda doing something less substantial. There's still so much that needs to happen. Given that Oda has already toiled with the disparity between Kaido and Luffy, it's more likely that he is saving a lot of that progression for future conflicts (with Blackbeard, the WG, etc.).

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                                                                                  @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                  What is the point of saying these Yonkou control large territories if we're not going to get even a glimpse of it, if it's all going to stop at Wano? It's a waste of an opportunity, to say the least (yes we can still see them but without the looming threat it loses the excitement of that).

                                                                                  If it helps, I already consider Punk Hazard and Dressrosa to be extensions of Kaido's territories due to how Caesar and Doflamingo were both involved in his SMILE production circle. As well as Doflamingo being under Kaido's thumb enough to want the Samurai captured. Then there is Jack invading Zou. I understand that what you mean is more having Kaido's crew present in these arcs front and center while Kaido waits ominously on another island, but I think we got plenty of setup for exploring Kaido's influence across islands as is. Especially if Wano Country is made up of four seasonal islands like Greg is suggesting.

                                                                                  And if you're correct about the scale of this gargantuan alliance, cramming it all together at once is going to be nightmarish.

                                                                                  That is why Oda introduced the factions of Luffy's alliance in previous arcs. Remember how cluttered Dressrosa was with all of these allies coming out of the woodwork with very little of their backgrounds explored besides Bartolomeo, Cavendish, Sai, and Leo? That was so Oda could introduce them ahead of time to put them in future arcs without needing to explain their existence from the ground up. It resulted in Dressrosa coming off as more flawed and all over the place, but it helps out in the long run.

                                                                                  We have seen Law get explored throughout Sabaody Archipelago, the tail end of pre-timeskip, Punk Hazard, and Dressrosa. We know about the Grand Fleet already and they are getting their own cover story right now. We met the Minks in Zou and hung out with two of them during Totland. We already met the Whitebeard Remnants and got a vague description of their loss over the timeskip. We have tagged along with Momo and the samurai since Punk Hazard even though we will surely learn much more about them during Wano Country.

                                                                                  We haven't seen Oda plan out a meeting of returning characters across various arcs like this since Impel Down and Marineford. Cramming all of this together can be messy, sure. But he definitely off to a better start than he was with Dressrosa, at least.

                                                                                  Dressrosa got completely obliterated and that was already a mini-war against a mere Shichibukai. Fujitora held up a HUUUUUUUGE amount of rubble when he tried to destroy the Straw Hats, and the remains of Pica's stone body was gigantic. And yet that arc still had a happy ending with all of the citizens jumping up for joy. Marineford got a wall and some building trashed. So Wano can suffer plenty of damage too. If Kaido's crew has a bunch of Ancient and Mythical Zoans like Drake and Jack, except Wano Country to be practically plagued with Kaiju (giant monsters like Godzilla and King Kong).

                                                                                  For the sake of Oda delivering a cohesive string of events, he'll have to pace it if he's going to continue to impress us as he's done for over a decade now. I mean, does this not sound like something that could work out nicely?
                                                                                  1. Wano, reunion with SH, Law crew and alliance with native Wano peeps, fight off Kaido's Zoan blokes and let them see just how serious these worst generation punks are firsthand
                                                                                  2. Second island in getting closer to Kaido's stronghold, meet up with Kidd/Apoo/Hawkins alliance, build a veritable armada of supernova crews, maybe get sidetracked looking for something the new guys have their eye on that can help turn the tide
                                                                                  3. Get interrupted by X Drake, fight him and convince him to switch sides, maybe he wanted that all along and just needed to be convinced he could find others who were strong enough to actually accomplish the feat
                                                                                  4. Get to Kaido's stronghold, have trump card of Luffy's armada from Dressrosa show up to help in the last stand to make a path to Kaido for the main fighters while the remaining Zoan SMILE guys are beaten back

                                                                                  A lot cleaner than trying to cram all of that into Wano, no?

                                                                                  The gist of that can pretty much be the Wano Country arc right there. Look at how many areas the Straw Hats came to and fro from during Alabasta, Skypiea, Water 7/Enies Lobby, Dressrosa, and now Totland. All of those steps you mentioned are things Oda can get done rather "quickly" in ten-twenty chapters each. And Greg is betting on Wano Country taking place over four seasonal islands. There's your big geographical progression right there.

                                                                                  I could even say that Totland covered almost or just as much ground in that list if you look at how much it covered between meeting Sanji's siblings and Pudding on Cacao Island, everything from the Seducing Woods to Luffy fighting Sanji and the Enraged Army, the ruckus that happened in Big Mom's castle the night before the wedding, forming an alliance with Bege to infiltrate the wedding which contained Big Mom's flashback, and and now the escape from delirious Big Mom while a cake is being prepared.

                                                                                  It's easy to list all of the plotlines and characters Oda has to tend to in an intimidating fashion of quantity, but it is easy to forget how brisk his story pacing is across arcs that last 40-100 chapters.

                                                                                  And I forgot to address this before, when I criticized Brook, my main issue with him is being a swordsman really steps on Zoro's toes and I'm not too keen on that. I actually like him a lot as a character but I wish he'd use musical instruments as weapons instead of a blade. Or even using a violin bow as an improvised sword would be better, IMO, just so Zoro would be the unique swordsman in the group. Just a tad bothersome but whatevs, he hardly gets any screen time anyway. But at this point I'm prone to get extremely irritable with people who've argued that Kinemon or another samurai will be joining the crew for that reason.

                                                                                  I had that issue with Brook pre-timeskip, but he has gotten plenty of things to make him stand out. His sword style is focused on fast fencing, he has super speed that can tread across water, he can release his soul for reconnaissance, he can mesmerize and sedate people with his music, his body has a healing factor, and he can freeze things. The cane sword even fits the showman theme Brook has. I would have been fine with a cool violin bow blade too, but that is only a superficial difference when it would probably function the exact same way.

                                                                                  Although I will not deny a part of me will always think it's weird to have a crew member who's dream is to be the ultimate swordsman have a fellow comrade who also has swordsman status. So the latter's fighting style is always going to remind us that they are inferior to the former, even if it is obvious that Zoro is one of the strongest members of the crew. But honestly, I don't think having multiple sword users with different battle applications and skill sets is much different from having multiple characters skill in their own styles of hand-to-hand combat. Sanji's whole shtick before Diable Jambe was just kicking while Luffy often kicked his enemies too.

                                                                                  You wouldn't get into any heat for disliking a samurai join the crew. Many people, including myself, want anything other than a third swordsman as the eleventh/final Straw Hat.

                                                                                  I wouldn't have known that. I'm not that up to speed on the folklore of Japan itself, just what's adapted into their stuff now and whatever little tidbits I hear about as DVD extras or on forums like this.

                                                                                  I didn't know that either. Here is an image comparison for the sake of the entire forum's convenience:

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                                                                                  Spoiler:

                                                                                  "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                                                    Johnny B. Decent @Count Mario
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                                                                                    @Count:

                                                                                    You wouldn't get into any heat for disliking a samurai join the crew. Many people, including myself, want anything other than a third swordsman as the eleventh/final Straw Hat.

                                                                                    Just kicking the can around, but what about a Samurai who isn't a swordsman, but uses a polearm like a Yari or Naginata, or something like the Masakari, Count?

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                                                                                      @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                      at this early stage

                                                                                      What would you say at which stage we actually are?

                                                                                      Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.

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                                                                                        @S.C.:

                                                                                        Just kicking the can around, but what about a Samurai who isn't a swordsman, but uses a polearm like a Yari or Naginata, or something like the Masakari, Count?

                                                                                        I would prefer something that isn't a pole arm only because it would be somewhat similar to Nami's Clima-Tact staff. But it can work with enough creativity from Oda.

                                                                                        Spoiler:

                                                                                        "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                                                          BattleFranky69 @Count Mario
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                                                                                          @Count:

                                                                                          I would prefer something that isn't a pole arm only because it would be somewhat similar to Nami's Clima-Tact staff. But it can work with enough creativity from Oda.

                                                                                          Before it was pretty much confirmed that Jimbei would be asked to join I had an idea for a Fishman character with a fishing pole (staff/hook on a string combo, so it's a lashing weapon, one no one on the crew makes use of regularly; think Sha Gojyo's weapon from Saiyuki) so maybe some kind of nunchaku or throwing weapon(s)? Especially if it had the ability to return after being thrown…but honestly, I'm under the impression they're at full capacity so I'm really not interested in anyone else joining now that Jimbei is their tremendously capable Helmsman. No other position need be filled, and I'm not sure what kind of fighting style out there isn't in some way covered by the crew without using a DF which they've already got way too many DF users as it is (but Jimbei doubles as a lifeguard and is big enough to pull all four of them up at the same time if they fall in the water), but if it's to happen, they need another girl. If they stop with Jimbei, that's fine, but if they're going to add yet one more, they gotta have more ladies present to represent.

                                                                                          I didn't make any assumptions about Wano to the tune of it being more than one island, so if that was implicit in everyone else's promotion of it being the location of the final showdown with Kaido, I just wasn't privy to that information. In that sense, I'd still like to see other areas in Kaido's dominion where it might not seem like another Dressrosa, where everyone's either miserable under occupation or too Stockholm Syndrome-d to even understand what's going on. I'd assume there's at least one place under his umbrella that's nothing but thugs and punks and no 'civilians'. With all the underworld connections, such a place would be inevitable. Making a name for oneself in such a place would be a sure way to get his attention and boost their rank in his army.

                                                                                          And I meant more like Banaro Island where Blackbeard beat Ace, and he absorbed and crushed every single building before spewing them back out. It's just fortunate it was abandoned so there were no casualties, but still. 100% of everything there gets flattened. It's a bit different when people are still there, so I doubt Oda'll do that again, although I imagine Wano's architecture being a bit more spread out so widespread destruction probably won't be a practical thing anyway. You just see a lot of criticism in other media lately about the amount of property damage and casualties and how negatively the careless heroes causing all that devastation in the effort of defending the people, it wouldn't do to have Luffy start getting the kind of reputation Kidd has because that kind of thing starts following him around. It's just fortunate that the biggest such thing lately has happened to Big Mom's tower so no one whose opinion matters will care about HER losing something.

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                                                                                            Count Mario @BattleFranky69
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                                                                                            @S.C.:

                                                                                            Just kicking the can around, but what about a Samurai who isn't a swordsman, but uses a polearm like a Yari or Naginata, or something like the Masakari, Count?

                                                                                            My point still stands. Fan fact though. One Piece Data Book Green shows that Nami was originally envision having a staff-axe instead of just a staff.

                                                                                            !
                                                                                            !

                                                                                            It is up to you to take this as indication of either there not being another staff-esque weapon user on crew because Nami seems to be centric to that idea or Oda will make an exception for battle axes.

                                                                                            @BattleFranky69:

                                                                                            Before it was pretty much confirmed that Jimbei would be asked to join I had an idea for a Fishman character with a fishing pole (staff/hook on a string combo, so it's a lashing weapon, one no one on the crew makes use of regularly; think Sha Gojyo's weapon from Saiyuki) so maybe some kind of nunchaku or throwing weapon(s)? Especially if it had the ability to return after being thrown…

                                                                                            So what you mean is a fishing rod combined with a chain and sickle? That… sounds really freaking awesome. And I know that can actually work well because the first few arcs of Hunter x Hunter focus on the protagonist, Gon, using a fishing rod as his main weapon. He would use it for grappling with the line, smacking things, stealthily catching objects from long distance, and even flipping over stone floorboards during a tournament fight. Add a big sickle sized hook as the lure and it would be quite the versatile weapon.

                                                                                            but honestly, I'm under the impression they're at full capacity so I'm really not interested in anyone else joining now that Jimbei is their tremendously capable Helmsman. No other position need be filled, and I'm not sure what kind of fighting style out there isn't in some way covered by the crew without using a DF which they've already got way too many DF users as it is (but Jimbei doubles as a lifeguard and is big enough to pull all four of them up at the same time if they fall in the water), but if it's to happen, they need another girl. If they stop with Jimbei, that's fine, but if they're going to add yet one more, they gotta have more ladies present to represent.

                                                                                            I get why you think that the crew can be complete as is. I wouldn't mind that either. However, there are two things you should take into note.

                                                                                            The first is that the ship role of helmsman is a fairly expendable position. It has never been essential to the crew prior to Totland in the same way that a navigator, cook, doctor, and shipwright were. And unlike every other ship role, the job of helming the ship has switched throughout the series between several crew members like Nami, Sanji, Chopper, and Franky. Jimbei is indeed the best helmsman in the crew, and maybe even the entire One Piece world for all we know. His helming skills will probably be irreplaceable as the story becomes more hectic from here on out. But Jimbei's helmsmanship role is merely a bonus. The same as Brook being a musician, but that was inevitable because Luffy kept foreshadowing that by wanting one.

                                                                                            Keeping in mind how an archaeologist is unconventional for a pirate ship and how One Piece Data Book Green stated that Oda originally considered a botanist for the crew (which most likely got shifted to Usopp's Pop Greens), Oda can sort of rope in whatever kind of role he wants for the crew even if it doesn't seem to be needed or is traditionally pirate-esque.

                                                                                            The second thing I want to bring up is that there are a bunch of clues throughout the series that point to there being eleven Straw Hats in total by the end of the series. At the end of Chapter One, Luffy said that he specifically wanted ten or so men for his pirate crew.

                                                                                            We probably already know by now that the Straw Hats are going to have 1v1 fights with the Blackbeard Pirates. Hence why they are dark parallels of each other. When we are introduced to Burgess in Dressrosa, we learn that he is one of Blackbeard's Ten Titanic Captains. Lafitte confirms to Burgess later on that Teach promoted himself to being the Commodore of his crew, leaving his crewmates to become captains of his ten ships similar to Whitebeard's division commanders with more of a focus on quality over quantity. However, there were only ten Blackbeard Pirates in total right before the timeskip. So Blackbeard appears to have recruited one more person over the timeskip. And I doubt it's Kuzan, he seems to only be an ally and will definitely betray the Blackbeard Pirates eventually.

                                                                                            Also, as irrelevant as this might seem, Oda loves soccer. And I mean he REALLY loves soccer. The one and only time he lent his voice for the anime was for a One Piece soccer special as an original character called Odacci that is the soccer game host. Soccer has eleven players on each team, which probably inspired him to want eleven Straw Hats to fight eleven Blackbeard Pirates at the end of the series.

                                                                                            !
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                                                                                            ! http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Odacchi

                                                                                            Given how the series seems to have ten years left and how the only islands necessary to travel to seem to be Wano Country, Elbaf, and Raftel… Wano Country seems to be the ideal time to have the final crewmate join before it becomes too late for them to feel like they belong.

                                                                                            I didn't make any assumptions about Wano to the tune of it being more than one island, so if that was implicit in everyone else's promotion of it being the location of the final showdown with Kaido, I just wasn't privy to that information. In that sense, I'd still like to see other areas in Kaido's dominion where it might not seem like another Dressrosa, where everyone's either miserable under occupation or too Stockholm Syndrome-d to even understand what's going on. I'd assume there's at least one place under his umbrella that's nothing but thugs and punks and no 'civilians'. With all the underworld connections, such a place would be inevitable. Making a name for oneself in such a place would be a sure way to get his attention and boost their rank in his army.

                                                                                            Exploring one of Kaido's official territories and his HQ would be interesting in separate arcs. I won't deny that. But I would be pressed to say that Oda is not interested in that and maybe feels that Kaido's background presences in Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, and Zou, as well as his favorite island being shown in Caribou's cover story, is enough.

                                                                                            The place you're describing sounds like Jaya. I would love to see another lawless pirate underbelly island like that.

                                                                                            And I meant more like Banaro Island where Blackbeard beat Ace, and he absorbed and crushed every single building before spewing them back out. It's just fortunate it was abandoned so there were no casualties, but still. 100% of everything there gets flattened. It's a bit different when people are still there, so I doubt Oda'll do that again, although I imagine Wano's architecture being a bit more spread out so widespread destruction probably won't be a practical thing anyway. You just see a lot of criticism in other media lately about the amount of property damage and casualties and how negatively the careless heroes causing all that devastation in the effort of defending the people, it wouldn't do to have Luffy start getting the kind of reputation Kidd has because that kind of thing starts following him around. It's just fortunate that the biggest such thing lately has happened to Big Mom's tower so no one whose opinion matters will care about HER losing something.

                                                                                            I doubt that the typical shonen manga would care about property damage in favor of engrossing action. The only Shonen Jump action-adventure manga I can see caring about that is My Hero Academia since that focuses a lot on superpower usage being strictly regulated by the government. These stories are marketed towards young boys who mainly care about adventure and action. Oda was hugely inspired as a kid by Dragon Ball, which is famously known for its violence. It's good to see heroes trying to minimize property damage, but even if characters in One Piece cared about that, I doubt somebody as chaotically good/selfish as Luffy would care so long as he doesn't see any civilians that could get hurt. Also, Luffy has already caused huge property damage from his final blows on Arlong, Crocodile, and Doflamingo. If Luffy causes big damage anywhere, Oda will make sure to conveniently have the place evacuated of innocent civilians.

                                                                                            Well, there could be repercussions to this arc if somebody decides to invade Whole Cake Island and take down Big Mom after her forces are weakened from this arc's events. Whole Cake Chateau is toppled, a bunch of towns are going to be in a mess from Big Mom's rampage, one Sweet General is down and we have no idea what Cracker's fate will be since we don't know what happened Snack after he was defeated by Urouge, and Praline just took away all of the Sea Slugs that are supposed to inform the Big Mom Pirates of oversea intruders. I don't see Big Mom getting another arc to herself after this arc. At best, she gets a minor role in Elbaf but is not the main arc villain.

                                                                                            Spoiler:

                                                                                            "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                                                            • K. Kira XXIII
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                                                                                              In my opinion, Oda chose between two things. Having the Straw Hats storm through an emperor's territory or having the crew escape from not only the HQ but the entire area.

                                                                                              Also, I think that Wano has 5 islands.

                                                                                              I think the helmsman position was important, because the ship would get damaged through their travels because the crew minus Jimbe were average at the role at best. A shipwright was needed to repair the ship from any damage, but the helmsman was needed to travel the ocean and avoid damage.

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                                                                                              Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                                                                @K.:

                                                                                                I think the helmsman position was important, because the ship would get damaged through their travels because the crew minus Jimbe were average at the role at best. A shipwright was needed to repair the ship from any damage, but the helmsman was needed to travel the ocean and avoid damage.

                                                                                                That makes sense conceptually, but the series never actually referenced how efficient helmsmanship is needed to survive the ultimate pirate adventure outside of when Luffy and Brook horribly steered the wheel earlier this arc and _maybe_​ when the Straw Hats were traveling on the Knock-Up Stream.

                                                                                                Spoiler:

                                                                                                "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                                                                  K. Kira XXIII @Count Mario
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                                                                                                  @Count:

                                                                                                  That makes sense conceptually, but the series never actually referenced how efficient helmsmanship is needed to survive the ultimate pirate adventure outside of when Luffy and Brook horribly steered the wheel earlier this arc and _maybe_​ when the Straw Hats were traveling on the Knock-Up Stream.

                                                                                                  I think it did by showing how much Ussop struggled to keep up with the damage done to the ship and emphasizing the need for a shipwright.

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                                                                                                    Count Mario @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                                                                    @K.:

                                                                                                    I think it did by showing how much Ussop struggled to keep up with the damage done to the ship and emphasizing the need for a shipwright.

                                                                                                    But that was blamed on the dangerous weather conditions and obstacles in the Grand Line, not because a skilled could overcome situations like ramming straight into a random giant island-sized whale hard enough to send the figurehead off flying. And I believe that was before Luffy tried to stab Laboon with the damn mast that was already broken.

                                                                                                    Spoiler:

                                                                                                    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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                                                                                                      K. Kira XXIII @Count Mario
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                                                                                                      @Count:

                                                                                                      But that was blamed on the dangerous weather conditions and obstacles in the Grand Line, not because a skilled could overcome situations like ramming straight into a random giant island-sized whale hard enough to send the figurehead off flying. And I believe that was before Luffy tried to stab Laboon with the damn mast that was already broken.

                                                                                                      Exactly, the blame was the weather and how bizarre the Grand Line is, therefore a shipwright would only be able to fix the consequences of such conditions. There had to be someone that could overcome these obstacles through their skill proficiency.

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                                                                                                      Originally Posted by Tamiel

                                                                                                      Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                                                                        Blissed @Count Mario
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                                                                                                        @Count:

                                                                                                        That makes sense conceptually, but the series never actually referenced how efficient helmsmanship is needed to survive the ultimate pirate adventure outside of when Luffy and Brook horribly steered the wheel earlier this arc and _maybe_​ when the Straw Hats were traveling on the Knock-Up Stream.

                                                                                                        Absolutely agreed, if the series ended without them having an official helmsman, the fanbase would not have cared, because Oda never really informed that we should. Until now of course. Any roles that are fulfilled post-TS are like you said, a bonus. I mean, yea, Oda will make said roles as useful as he possibly can in the future, but they aren't obvious mandatory stuff that should always be on standby, like a doctor or a chef.

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