There is one for America, so why not have one for Europe?
Plus, I would love to learn more about what's going in Europe besides the United States.
There is one for America, so why not have one for Europe?
Plus, I would love to learn more about what's going in Europe besides the United States.
Should we take the arabic spam as a metaphor for what's going on in europe? :ninja:
Oh, hey, gamal66! Welcome to the site! Hope you enjoy your stay!
A spambot…... -_-
USA politics is a giant tire fire that blots out the sun with a Pilar of smoke.
Even amid brexit and the independence movements, Europe is not that dramatic. Right now.
All the (ultra-)right-wing movements trying their best to assert independence from the establishment while not looking like the butt monkeys flying out of the Trump Administration.
Alright, let's get to it. I think Spain should have new general elections and Catalonia should have new elections too. The current governments on either side are made up of idiots who do not seem capable of solving anything.
I'm acutally impressed Spain is a topic nowadays, it's been like 2 centuries without any protagonism at all.
If it weren't for the looming threat of Podemos always lurking in the shadows with their "totally not venezuelan socialism" I'd be clamoring for elections as well.
The annoying thing is that either the PP (right wing, the PM's party) has drilled the connection so much that it lost all meaning, or people are tired enough to not care and their anti establishment wishes will be granted at any cost.
If it weren't for the looming threat of Podemos always lurking in the shadows with their "totally not venezuelan socialism" I'd be clamoring for elections as well.
The annoying thing is that either the PP (right wing, the PM's party) has drilled the connection so much that it lost all meaning, or people are tired enough to not care and their anti establishment wishes will be granted at any cost.
We also have far left parties here (actually we have a sort of stalinist party which does pretty great in every single election) and they support the current centre-left government. It's working out pretty great, since the socialists can implement their centre left policies without danger of being shot down by the neoliberals and the far left helps the workers unions get back on the negotiation tables with the government, thereby improving worker's wages and rights. Basically we're back to social-democracy after years of neoliberal business-friendly policies and devastation of the welfare state and living standards. While the Podemos-style parties are not strong enough to outright start nationalizing stuff and voting us out of the EU, for example, they can influence the PS to be more worker-friendly instead of EU-subservient. I think a similar arrangement would suit Spain just fine at a time like this. Your economy is strong and steady (:ninja:) and if your government was more prone to spending, maybe unemployment would actually go down. It's scary how bad it is in some places. My brother lives in Linares (Jaen), where it is close to 50 %, or something like that.
And since it seems both Podemos and PSOE are favourable to negotiations with the Generalitat, instead of giving them the middle finger and sending police to Catalunya, maybe this would calm things down and lead to a peaceful transition to a new status quo, either with an independent state or integrated in Spain with a new status.
I'm no expert. But yeah, Linares is not somewhere where anyone wants to be.
The mentality that I've seen is a "winer takes all", bipartidism is too strong still, with four parties of stupid right, " I say center but actually right ", " I say left but actually center" and "I say left but actually bumfuck"
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Also, I think that the last best bet for Catalunya was shut down by the PSOE the last time they had majority.
I think new elections could just result into another tie with no agreements reached to form a government and the pp being the acting government for another year.
There is that as well. There is very little motivation from Madrid to change things.
Hell, the company exodus from Catalunya is a boon for the nearby regions.
Could someone go more into detail about the elections in Spain? Like the different candidates, and who is the best one, etc.? -curious about the situation there-
As someone who lives in a place with a history of separatism (Québec, Canada), I think the best option for Spain would be to allow a real referendum to be held, with both camps (Yes and No) getting the chance to say their piece. Sure, it "could" mean seccession, but that is what the right of auto-determination of people means…
Still, most likely the independentists would lose and their legitimacy would take a hit. After all, separatism is largly built on a perception of unfairness and fear. Getting told you are but peon that can't decide your own fate tends to exacerbate that.
Plus, referendums tend to remove the violent option from the table on the medium term. I mean, we even had a terrorist group that was somewhat popular (FLQ), but after two lost referendum (1980 and 1995), I can't see that happening again.
Sure there is still talk of separatism in Québec, but the approval for it keeps going down and frankly, the separatist parties are dying a slow death (kept alive only by the incompetence of other parties) and when they win election, it's because they say there won't be a referendum in the next term...
I have no idea why it's so hard to let people have a say in if they want to belong to your country or not. Do some people take it as an insult or something? Honestly, I don't think this problem would ever happen in Portugal. I actually think most people would not give 2 shits if some part of the country wants to be out. That part would most likely be smaller and weaker, so who cares. "The only ones needed are those who are here" is a common saying.
The catalan front is a mistery to me.
The spanish front is more understandable, with:
Rajoy seemed to be planing on just sweeping the issue away, changing up the current goverment on catalunya, and just try to act with business as usual, boosted by the fact that independentism and just "let's do business" or turism doesn't mix, that caused all but one of the top tax contributors on the region to change their location, and there was a sharp decline on turism and hotel reserves, so the region will end weaker after the fact.
The Catalan goverment is already in check, if they declare the independence, the spanish goverment will just take away their competences, under the constitution, and handle the region indefinitely, if they go back on it then the independentist movement will crack, splitting it into different factions.
Doing a proper independence referendum should be the most logical option, but I doubt that Madrid will take the chance, this october's with around 42% of the people, (I think a little less than 3million) they claim to have won with 90%. That's between the ilegality of the vote, the fear of represion, the bolstering after represion, the fact that many of the measures to avoid voting twice were absent because the central census didn't provide it, and that some of the electors that through data alone would prove "problematic" (as in people from other regions or countries that can vote, but were likely to vote no) weren't even notified or invited.
I have no idea what's the usual number of voters that actually go to vote, but my boss that is more politicaly savy than me claims that the last referendum the separatist option lost with around the same % that they got now, and he keept reminding me that (illogically) the catalan parlament independentist sector wasn't the majority when they passed the laws that would grant them independence. Haven't factchecked that one, but it doesn't match up with the negative from Madrid to do the referendum.
I have no idea why it's so hard to let people have a say in if they want to belong to your country or not. Do some people take it as an insult or something? Honestly, I don't think this problem would ever happen in Portugal. I actually think most people would not give 2 shits if some part of the country wants to be out. That part would most likely be smaller and weaker, so who cares. "The only ones needed are those who are here" is a common saying.
The biggest problem with things like this is how incredibly violent the history of them tends to be. Because it's very very rare that you have so neat a situation that enough of the population is on board for the minority against it to not be a problem, among other usual issues.
I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.
Well, there's the fact that spain had almost all the world and lost almost all of it by 100 years ago, that they fought tooth and nail to keep Basque Country in check, and that Catalunya is the richest region, that the independentist side is happy to tell you that if they built the state EXACTLY as they plan, and no extra expenses like having an army, airports, social security, etc were to crop up, they (I should say we?) would have one of the top 10 economies of the EU.
They don't like to talk about our independence wars. They call them "the secesion wars".
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@Monkey:
The biggest problem with things like this is how incredibly violent the history of them tends to be. Because it's very very rare that you have so neat a situation that enough of the population is on board for the minority against it to not be a problem, among other usual issues.
I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.
The irony is that no one born here believes that Spain is a first world country. Or are an actual democracy.
The Catalan goverment is already in check, if they declare the independence, the spanish goverment will just take away their competences, under the constitution, and handle the region indefinitely […]
That would be so dumb, I can't even fathom…
First, it would totally legitimise violence, hell would I be a catalan I would probaly revolt.
Second, even I there was no violence, there are tons of way to do non-violent resistence (for exemple, stop paying taxes or indefinite strike).
Third, it would certainly raise the support for separatism, I mean even moderates would feel insulted...
Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.
It's also a thing that I've just heard again after a while.
My cousins live in a shitty town in the mountains, of those that everyone knows your name, and the pregnant teen or the gay boy become the talk of the town, and everyone either is a trader or works for the big farm, when they came to my hometown, middle class suburbs from the 2th to 4th biggest city of Venezuela depending on how you count and were amazed on how "people minded their own business, without complaining about the others"
My best friend from that town said so from Caracas.
My mom, lived in both that town and Caracas said so about Barcelona.
One of my coworkers, lived all his life in this city said so about London.
I wonder, who the Londinense admire for their aloofnes?
@Monkey:
I was going to say something about how it only seems so simple and non-violent in these cases because Spain and Canada are first world democracies? But then Northern Ireland kind of proves even that doesn't necessitate anything.
Well, Trudeau's father did say he would have sent troops if the "yes" camp would have won the 1980 referendum and martial law WAS imposed due to the FLQ which really was unnecessary… And I'd argue that such an attitude is a large part of why support for independence grew so much from the first to the second referendum (49,5%)...
They don't like to talk about our independence wars. They call them "the secesion wars".
Tell me more Spain vs Latin American stuff, I'm going to do an empire unit in a bit and my Puerto Rican students might find it interesting if I have any Spaniard related anecdotes and funny things to mention.
That would be so dumb, I can't even fathom…
First, it would totally legitimise violence, hell would I be a catalan I would probaly revolt.
Second, even I there was no violence, there are tons of way to do non-violent resistence (for exemple, stop paying taxes or indefinite strike).
Third, it would certainly raise the support for separatism, I mean even moderates would feel insulted...
Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.
Kind of agree, but is the law, if a community stops doing their dutties, or "tries to undermine the sovereignty of spain" they have the right and dutty to take over. And from here we go to the rabbit hole of "The law changes for the rich" and "They don't follow the law then why would we", and a bunch of "they did it first, so we can do whatever"-isms.
Frankly, to an external observer, Spain looks like Turkey or China, ready to go to civil war or take political prisonners (cause that is what it would be if they arrest politicians or policemen for secessionism) just in order to keep a region under it's boot.
It really doesn't.
He's not saying democracy and human rights would be suspended there, he's saying particular privileges of the Catalonian "state" would be suspended. No that is not remotely comparable to Turkish Kurdistan or Tibet.
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I wonder, who the Londinense admire for their aloofnes?
It all comes down to Sweden in the end.
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Well, Trudeau's father did say he would have sent troops if the "yes" camp would have won the 1980 referendum and martial law WAS imposed due to the FLQ which really was unnecessary… And I'd argue that such an attitude is a large part of why support for independence grew so much from the first to the second referendum (49,5%)...
I'm not just talking about the state vs the secessionist state. I'm talking about violence among populations in the secessionist area.
@Monkey:
Tell me more Spain vs Latin American stuff, I'm going to do an empire unit in a bit and my Puerto Rican students might find it interesting if I have any Spaniard related anecdotes and funny things to mention.
They get horribly stuned when I use a word unlike they would use it.
Like the word for "Car", for us is carro, for them a carro is either a horse carriage, a train carriage or a baby stroller, they use "Coche", that is for us exclusively baby carriage.
But is not the confusion, is like they are offended about it.
They don't like to talk about the 1800s, or the crimes they commited against other people, but love to talk about how much of an asshole Franco was to them, and that he was "Literally hitler".
There are way too many weird little towns and traditions. There's a place where they throw out a living goat out of a tower, into a trampoline-tarp-rescue-thing. There's the more classical ones, like the Bulls races, or the "Corridas", or the Tomatina. I guess should be judging the animal cruelty, so here: I condem them.
They take care and pride on their very old buildings. There's this dude from the south that keeps on talking about the "Biggest arab bathhouse in Europe".
There's a sense of a regional pride. Everyone tells you their hometown, and acts like if you have to know where it is. Or are expecting me to ask about it and I don't catch that social cue.
They remove hot soups from the menues on summer. I dislike cold soups.
They love to rhyme. For them a rhyme is more valuable than a pun or a double entendre. They enjoy them way too much.
I don't know if this is because of the difference of slang or just that they are less dirty minded, but it takes A LOT for them to get a double entendre. They go on and on about taking it from behind lying down and things that I can't even remember the actual context.
Oh, and I feel they are more sexist here. Like consistently talking about "Feminazi" as feminist, or how it is "impossible" that me as a boy had way less home related responsabilities than my female friends. And other stuff I've blocked for the sake of daily convivence. Like if women already liberated enough, and should stop asking for more. I want to think that it's just my coworkers that are over 5-8 years my seniors, as the master's classmates didn't say anything so disgusting, and they were 3-5 years my juniors.
I feel like I should close on something more positive. They are way more interested on learning about my culture than I'm about theirs. I'm not used to turning on my curiosity on people.
I had not a full experience on this, as my situation was pretty irregular, as I haven't the need to integrate too much into the culture, as my coworkers and classmates migrated around the same time.
@Monkey:
It really doesn't.
He's not saying democracy and human rights would be suspended there, he's saying particular privileges of the Catalonian "state" would be suspended. No that is not remotely comparable to Turkish Kurdistan or Tibet.
But they are close to that line when they start sending frinkin paramilitaries, beating up random voters who aren't even protesting and talking about arresting police officiers or politicians.
@Monkey:
I'm not just talking about the state vs the secessionist state. I'm talking about violence among populations in the secessionist area.
Sure, and I'm just saying that such a thing might have been closer to happen in Québec than it may seems to external observers…
Kind of agree, but is the law, if a community stops doing their dutties, or "tries to undermine the sovereignty of spain" they have the right and dutty to take over. And from here we go to the rabbit hole of "The law changes for the rich" and "They don't follow the law then why would we", and a bunch of "they did it first, so we can do whatever"-isms.
But in the long term, I don't believe it will help their cause, especially if Spain wants to remain democratic. It will only reinforce the belief that they should take the first opportunity for independence that presents itself… a bit like Iraki Kurdistan I believe.
But they are close to that line when they start sending frinkin paramilitaries,
"Paramilitaries" as in ….the rarely if ever used context of "something between police and army troops"? Or "Paramilitaries" in the usual sense of the word, which is absolutely not in play or anywhere close to it (thank god).
beating up random voters who aren't even protesting and talking about arresting police officiers or politicians.
Violent cop beatings is not outside the pale of the first world unfortunately. Even if it is ugly and bad. Pretty sure even if distasteful the arrests or removals from office would still be within the bounds of law.
This is magnitudes removed from Turkey let alone China.
Sure, and I'm just saying that such a thing might have been closer to happen in Québec than it may seems to external observers…
I don't really think it ever had the possibility of going too deep, I think it went exactly as deep as it was ever going to. The grievances just seem too shallow compared to the usual cases, no offense.
Anglo Canada even lacks Spain's post-empire wounded pride that makes their reaction to Catalonia somewhat unpredictable.
@Monkey:
"Paramilitaries" as in ….the rarely if ever used context of "something between police and army troops"? Or "Paramilitaries" in the usual sense of the word, which is absolutely not in play or anywhere close to it (thank god).
Still is pretty bad when you send the "almost-military" to stop a peaceful vote.
@Monkey:
Pretty sure even if distasteful the arrests or removals from office would still be within the bounds of law.
I don't think it's much of a point if the laws in question are unfair. I mean, many political arrests in countries like Russia, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc. are "within the bounds of the laws".
@Monkey:
I don't really think it ever had the possibility of going too deep, I think it went exactly as deep as it was ever going to. The grievances just seem too shallow compared to the usual cases, no offense.
Anglo Canada even lacks Spain's post-empire wounded pride that makes their reaction to Catalonia somewhat unpredictable.
But, thing is, gravity of offence is highly relative and it's easy to escalate, thus creating new offences, thus creating reactions, thus creating new offences, etc., etc.
How many conflicts where started for relatively minor things or "offences" that happened decades or centuries before.
My point is we were lucky never to have too much violence. Still, lets not forget the FLQ did murder a minister and it's hard to know what would have happened if a referendum was won…
Still is pretty bad when you send the "almost-military" to stop a peaceful vote.
Yes it is bad. But let's not get carried away with the comparisons. Especially to literal police states like China.
I don't think it's much of a point if the laws in question are unfair. I mean, many political arrests in countries like Russia, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc. are "within the bounds of the laws".
And I repeat.
But, thing is, gravity of offence is highly relative
I mean that the population in question is suffering in ways that create the pressure for that violence. The North Irish Troubles kicked off because the Catholic population were living in something of an apartheid state, where peaceful demonstration had been outright stomped on.
Did French-Canadians in the 20th century experience any sort of pressure anywhere near that?thus creating new offences, thus creating reactions, thus creating new offences, etc., etc.
That requires a greater sense of us and them in the tribal sense, the ethnic sense. Something I'm really not sure is so true in Spain. Catalonians seem to have a strong nationalism, but one powered more by something similar to how California feels toward red state America than some sort of deep seated tribal identity toward the rest of Spain. Vice versa I don't think other Spaniards have some sense of the same.
Now your own land? There's more of that sort of groundwork, but while French-Canadians have that sort of identity, Anglo-Canada sure as shit doesn't on the other end (Anglo-Canada really doesn't know who it is aside from "not America").
I can't see Anglo-Canadians feeling like a Quebec bomber killing a bunch of Nova Scotians is a personal attack on "their people".and it's easy to escalate, thus creating new offences, thus creating reactions, thus creating new offences, etc., etc.
How many conflicts where started for relatively minor things or "offences" that happened decades or centuries before.
My point is we were lucky never to have too much violence. Still, lets not forget the FLQ did murder a minister and it's hard to know what would have happened if a referendum was won…
Seems to me, Spain wants to take things the violent way, on which Catalynia would never win, while independentist are trying to avoid that one way in particular and get it done with any other possible way
@Monkey:
Yes it is bad. But let's not get carried away with the comparisons. Especially to literal police states like China.
And I repeat.
If that is your point I can agree, after all, I never meant that Spain is as bad as North Korea, only that it looks very undemocratic/almost autoritarian. But then, mostly in principle or compared to countries like Great Britain during the scottish referendum…
@Monkey:
@Monkey:
I mean that the population in question is suffering in ways that create the pressure for that violence. The North Irish Troubles kicked off because the Catholic population were living in something of an apartheid state, where peaceful demonstration had been outright stomped on.
Did French-Canadians in the 20th century experience any sort of pressure anywhere near that?
That requires a greater sense of us and them in the tribal sense, the ethnic sense. Something I'm really not sure is so true in Spain. Catalonians seem to have a strong nationalism, but one powered more by something similar to how California feels toward red state America than some sort of deep seated tribal identity toward the rest of Spain. Vice versa I don't think other Spaniards have some sense of the same.
Now your own land? There's more of that sort of groundwork, but while French-Canadians have that sort of identity, Anglo-Canada sure as shit doesn't on the other end (Anglo-Canada really doesn't know who it is aside from "not America").
I can't see Anglo-Canadians feeling like a Quebec bomber killing a bunch of Nova Scotians is a personal attack on "their people".
My point was that people from Québec could have resorted to things like terrorisism or even unilateral declaration of independence.
Then the cnd gouv. may have felt the need to "crackdown".
Which could easily be used to stir shit up, especially with some propaganda…
Then the cnd gouv. may have felt the need for more "crackdown"...
Still, it's all so hypothetical that it doesn't really mean anything. Perhaps barely that peace can never be taken for granted or that there are scenarios where things could have turned badly even in Quebec.
As for your question about french-canadian grieviences, many are merely historical by now for exemple:
Things from the far past like the war of conquest, the assimilation of many francophone regions of Canada and the present day USA, deportation of acadians, the ruthless anwser to the patriots revolt, murder of metis, alleged genocide of autochtones (beotuks for exemple).
But there was also some more real issues (most of which have been addressed at least in part by now):
The marginalisation of french-speakers in canadian institutions (army, politics, etc.) and economy (most of business was in english and frenchs where mostly peasants), there is a case to be made that french could have dissepeared in the long run through immigration from english speaking countries and assimilation in order to make our lives better. I mean Montreal was pretty much an english speaking city where you couldn'be served in french if you wanted to...
But most of that is mostly not true anymore, new immigrants are mostly from the francophony and the "law 101" prohibits the dominance of english in public affairs. Most of it was done through what was called the "quiet revolution".
That's what I can think of on the top of my head.
After 7 months of dicking around, the new Dutch governing coalition is finally being finalized and it's full of radical capitalist goodies like a flat income tax, cutting corporate taxes to 21% and a bunch of other pointless tax cuts that will bite the country in the ass when the next recession comes knocking. But at least they're raising the VAT on primary goods! Because fuck poor people.
On the other hand, there is a binding climate law, experiments with legal weed and official forms will be gender neutral.
So their priorities after we've been through decades of neoliberalism is… More neoliberalism, plus gender neutral stuff, because it's politically correct. "Why the hell is the far right back, I wonder!?" When you spend decades screwing poor people over and over and force political correctness down their throats as if it's the main priority of your political program and you still claim to be social-democrat/labour/left-anything, it's no wonder your party nearly disappears (F you, Djisselbloem, really F you. I was so happy to see him thrashed after all the crap he gave to my country). What's even more surprising is that the alternatives present the exact same or even more extreme neoliberal solutions. Have they learned nothing from the last decade? Even the IMF is admitting troika policies were wrong and do not work. Same thing is happening in France. This Macron guy who is clearly just another neoliberal banker guy who wants to deregulate labour laws, deregulate financial markets and slash welfare is somehow presented as a solution to all problems because the alternative seems to be essentially fascism. A couple of days after he is voted in, everyone is tired od him already and strikes are breaking out all over the place against his policies. What the hell, Europe? What the hell...
Macron has decided to tax yachts and jewelry. :ninja:
Macron has decided to tax yachts and jewelry. :ninja:
Good?
I don't get the satanization towards 'neoliberalism', literally any local capitalism/globalization friendly politics are called neoliberalism, while non-friendly capitalism/globalization politics simply don't work.
What do people actually expect as a different and possible way other than evil neoliberalism as a path to take :/
Hmm, I don't know, maybe classical liberalism? Social-democracy, which provided the most balanced societies and prilonged economic growth out of any recent historical period? Maybe not facilitating companies treating workers as disposable goods and not treating subsidies and public companies as devils who stop the economy from working properly? Maybe not injecting ridiculous sums of public money which we're told cannot go into the welfare state or construction projects into failing banks and still reward the administrators who caused the banks to fail? Maybe learn from the past and realise that uncontrolled laissez faire capitalism leads to extreme inequality, which leads to slowdown of growth, which leads to more poverty and unemployment, which leads to public frustration and radicalization (mainly towards the far right)? Since when did globalization and market liberalization become the single rational answer that politicians apply to everything? Post-WW2 Europe was built on 2 pillars. Increasing economic and political uninty between countries in the form of the European communities (presently EU), and the welfare state, based on the idea that societies should be cohesive and strive towards more equality and prosperity for all, with the better off helping proportionally more than the worse off. One of these pillars has been consistently eroded since Thatcher erupted into the scene and the consequences are pretty obvious, to the point where even the IMF has admited to the wrongness of their past policies.
Good?
Good but everyone knows he's doing this because lots of strikes are scheduled in the next weeks and also because he's being portrayed as the "president of the rich". And let's not forget that he called those who are making strikes against his neo-liberal labor laws "lazy and cynical".
Good but everyone knows he's doing this because lots of strikes are scheduled in the next weeks and also because he's being portrayed as the "president of the rich". And let's not forget that he called those who are making strikes against his neo-liberal labor laws "lazy and cynical".
Macron seems by far the most resonnable and centrist president that France could get. I mean, it does seem that France's public function is a bit bloated and too much taxes kill taxes.
Plus, he seems to be a resonnable progressist who truly wants to make Europe work, pro-integration, not xenophobic and some good will towards nations in difficulty like Greece. Truly, I feel that politicians like that are the hope of Europe if he has his way, I feel he could truly make it work.
He's got none of the bad traits of the left (hate towards the wealth creators, illogical taxation ambitions, exageration on the role of the state, etc.) and the right (racisism, patriotism, anti-environnementalism, corruption to help lobbyists, etc.).
@Monkey:
Now your own land? There's more of that sort of groundwork, but while French-Canadians have that sort of identity, Anglo-Canada sure as shit doesn't on the other end (Anglo-Canada really doesn't know who it is aside from "not America").
That's certainly true lolol.
I can't see Anglo-Canadians feeling like a Quebec bomber killing a bunch of Nova Scotians is a personal attack on "their people".
Hmm maybe not the "their people part", but Quebec separatists do have the general reputation of being people who don't want to remain "Canadian", so they do fit into an "us vs. them" scenario if the situation were to escalate. It would probably be perceived as an attack on "Canadians" as a whole, rather than anglo-Canadians only.
Hmm maybe not the "their people part", but Quebec separatists do have the general reputation of being people who don't want to remain "Canadian", so they do fit into an "us vs. them" scenario if the situation were to escalate. It would probably be perceived as an attack on "Canadians" as a whole, rather than anglo-Canadians only.
Yeah I do feel that spirits get kind of heated in some anglophone medias whenever the Parti Québecois gets elected or talks about independence…
Yeah I do feel that spirits get kind of heated in some anglophone medias whenever the Parti Québecois gets elected or talks about independence…
Yeah, it does. Even though I live in anglophone canada and speak french, I guess non-Quebec provinces are just like.. confused about why Quebec would want to go so far as to leave the country. Honestly I'm guilty of not learning about the reasons for wanting independence and why it's necessary, so it just feels super kooky and weird whenever it's brought up, which I think is a shared… anglophone opinion.... shrugs.
I wouldn't want it. Personally, I enjoy our french history and I feel great every time I visit Quebec and get to crank out some rusty french vocab, it's part of my Canadian identity.
Yeah, it does. Even though I live in anglophone canada and speak french, I guess non-Quebec provinces are just like.. confused about why Quebec would want to go so far as to leave the country. Honestly I'm guilty of not learning about the reasons for wanting independence and why it's necessary, so it just feels super kooky and weird whenever it's brought up, which I think is a shared… anglophone opinion.... shrugs.
I wouldn't want it. Personally, I enjoy our french history and I feel great every time I visit Quebec and get to crank out some rusty french vocab, it's part of my Canadian identity.
Depends on the people…
For some it's more about politics like not wanting anything to do with the prairies politicians (conservatives) or the liberal party.
For others it's about "culture", multi-culturalism may be seen as a threat when your culture is treated on the same level as that of new arrivants.
Resentement over past offences (there where many since French-Canada WAS litteraly conquered) let's not forget that most of present day Canada was once french speaking and now outside of Quebec there are only small communities remaining (which are not always treated with incredible respect).
But mostly, I think it's about language, while things have majorly improved, lets not forget that for a long time there was an official doctrine of assimilation... Also, it may be hard to imagine for english speakers how "besieged" franco-american may feel, after all, we are only a small province in amongst a huge population of english-speakers in america. Some feel that the only way to protect the language and "culture" is being an independent country.
All in all, it's not about hate of the rest of canada, but mostly about the fear to lose ourselves...
That's why the best thing people from other provinces can do is not to be provocative and use their position of strenght to pressure Québec, however infuriating we may seem, lol. Most of us don't mind staying in Canada and I'd argue that a large part of the separatism is reactionnary in nature...
I mean thing like all the provinces except Quebec meeting in secret to pass the constitution (which Quebec hasn't signed yet 35 years later), the commandites scandal, or the clarity act (where a referendum would need 60% vote to be valid acording to the cnd gouv) don't help the public opinion...
Depends on the people…
For some it's more about politics like not wanting anything to do with the prairies politicians (conservatives) or the liberal party.
I guess I can understand this. Sometimes I don't want anything to do with them either :/
For others it's about "culture", multi-culturalism may be seen as a threat when your culture is treated on the same level as that of new arrivants.
But I can't get behind this. Especially when this sentiment fuels groups like La Meute.
Resentement over past offences (there where many since French-Canada WAS litteraly conquered) let's not forget that most of present day Canada was once french speaking and now outside of Quebec there are only small communities remaining (which are not always treated with incredible respect).
But mostly, I think it's about language, while things have majorly improved, lets not forget that for a long time there was an official doctrine of assimilation… Also, it may be hard to imagine for english speakers how "besieged" franco-american may feel, after all, we are only a small province in amongst a huge population of english-speakers in america. Some feel that the only way to protect the language and "culture" is being an independent country.
All in all, it's not about hate of the rest of canada, but mostly about the fear to lose ourselves...
That's why the best thing people from other provinces can do is not to be provocative and use their position of strenght to pressure Québec, however infuriating we may seem, lol. Most of us don't mind staying in Canada and I'd argue that a large part of the separatism is reactionnary in nature...
I mean thing like all the provinces except Quebec meeting in secret to pass the constitution (which Quebec hasn't signed yet 35 years later), the commandites scandal, or the clarity act (where a referendum would need 60% vote to be valid acording to the cnd gouv) don't help the public opinion...
French isn't going anywhere, honestly. Having been born and raised in Ontario, i'll tell you that those who learned french/attended french immersion throughout school are highly regarded. Anglophone Canadian society looks at French speakers incredibly well where I'm from, and it's looked at as having earned a superior education and may have better job prospects after school.
I speak from the perspective of working in a school and having interacted with many parents who want their kids to learn French. Heck just today I was talking to a co-worker who told me she regrets not choosing to switch over to French immersion when she was in elementary school.
Politics aside, Canada (at least in Ontario) has a great system in place to encourage people to develop that dual-french Canadian identity. Quebecois culture being lost? Well, culture is an ever-evolving thing. Most of the time it has positive effects on society (like all those excellent Algerian and Moroccan restaurants in Montreal. Yum).
Edit:
Now that I think about it, I am the perfect example to demonstrate why French culture isn't going anywhere in Canada and why multiculturalism isn't a threat to it lol.
I'm a canadian-born daughter of Trinidadian (see: brown) immigrants (not to mention muslim) who decided to put me in French Immersion in kindergarten, and has grown up to love the French language and become an advocate for the benefits of learning French here bahaha. A lot of my friends have their kids in private school or in home schools, but I had such a great experience in French Immersion that when I have kids I want them to experience it, too.
But I can't get behind this. Especially when this sentiment fuels groups like La Meute.
It also disgusts me, but the existence of "La Meute" shows that such opinions do exist amongst independentists… I do think it's a minority though, after all the history of the independentist movement is mostly about self-affirmation and progressism.
At most, I can understand the most fervent of nationalist being afraid that immigrants don't buy into the independence movement. It's pretty normal after all not to want to stir secessionism when you are new to a country after all... I don't think it's right to oppose immigration for such a reason but I do understand that to hardcore independentist, they may not be happy to see their dream of an independent country seem to slip away.
French isn't going anywhere, honestly. Having been born and raised in Ontario, i'll tell you that those who learned french/attended french immersion throughout school are highly regarded. Anglophone Canadian society looks at French speakers incredibly well where I'm from, and it's looked at as having earned a superior education and may have better job prospects after school.
I speak from the perspective of working in a school and having interacted with many parents who want their kids to learn French. Heck just today I was talking to a co-worker who told me she regrets not choosing to switch over to French immersion when she was in elementary school.
Politics aside, Canada (at least in Ontario) has a great system in place to encourage people to develop that dual-french Canadian identity. Quebecois culture being lost? Well, culture is an ever-evolving thing. Most of the time it has positive effects on society (like all those excellent Algerian and Moroccan restaurants in Montreal. Yum).
Now that I think about it, I am the perfect example to demonstrate why French culture isn't going anywhere in Canada and why multiculturalism isn't a threat to it lol.
I'm a canadian-born daughter of Trinidadian (see: brown) immigrants (not to mention muslim) who decided to put me in French Immersion in kindergarten, and has grown up to love the French language and become an advocate for the benefits of learning French here bahaha. A lot of my friends have their kids in private school or in home schools, but I had such a great experience in French Immersion that when I have kids I want them to experience it, too.
People from Quebec (and pretty much all the rest of the world) also learn english, but I'm sure you can appreciate that the reason that outside Quebec, french is not really essential. Sure it may open doors, but you won't be in trouble if you don't know it. Also, billinguism is a relatively new thing that probably wouldn't have had much traction without the fear of separatism. Even in Quebec, the french language had to be fought for to be protected (law 101, obligation of attending french schools, law on the use of french in the work place,etc.). When the two referendums happened, such a thing couldn't be taken for granted.
I believe that most of support for separatism is either for political reasons (percieved or real political differences), or a remenant of such a time when the status of french was far from certain (after all political attitudes take time to change).
I do believe the rest of Canada is paranoid about independentism, most of us agree that things aren't that bad anymore (support for independence haven't gone over 40% for a loooong time and the youth ain't much interrested in it anymore). If Quebec ever votes for independence it'll be because Canada pushed us too far if anything.
Personaly, I am ready to give a chance to live together (voted NDP and liberal to the last federal elections, Bloc Quebecois before that). I'll admit that things like the tar sands and conservatism are the things that may make me consider voting yes to a referendum though. And a free quebec would probably be good thing for the rest of Canada to be honest (getting rid of the Bloc Quebecois for exemple) and it's not like Canada NEEDS Quebec to succeed… Still, I do agree a a united Canada is probably for the best (as nationalism is truly an ugly thing) but sometimes I do wonder if Quebec couldn't have a better impact on the world by going our own way...
It also disgusts me, but the existence of "La Meute" shows that such opinions do exist amongst independentists… I do think it's a minority though, after all the history of the independentist movement is mostly about self-affirmation and progressism.
At most, I can understand the most fervent of nationalist being afraid that immigrants don't buy into the independence movement. It's pretty normal after all not to want to stir secessionism when you are new to a country after all... I don't think it's right to oppose immigration for such a reason but I do understand that to hardcore independentist, they may not be happy to see their dream of an independent country seem to slip away.
The hardcore independents need to be kept in check, though. As we've seen with the shooting, far-righters are definitely a threat and the anti-immigration stance (sadly, inflated and emboldened by Trump) really has no place in Canada. Honestly though, I'm pretty scared that our next PM will be Trudeau's polar opposite due to rising resistance to immigration, from not only far-righters but regular conservatives, too. In the end, I may not agree with a lot of Trudeau's decisions, but holy fuck, at least he's admired and respected on a global scale. (apologies to 'muricans D: )
People from Quebec (and pretty much all the rest of the world) also learn english, but I'm sure you can appreciate that the reason that outside Quebec, french is not really essential. Sure it may open doors, but you won't be in trouble if you don't know it. Also, billinguism is a relatively new thing that probably wouldn't have had much traction without the fear of separatism. Even in Quebec, the french language had to be fought for to be protected (law 101, obligation of attending french schools, law on the use of french in the work place,etc.). When the two referendums happened, such a thing couldn't be taken for granted.
That's true. Unfortunately English has become the be-all-and-end-all language across the globe, and it'll be close to impossible to just start forcing the use of french on the rest of Canada where anglophones vastly outnumber francophones. I see Canada as similar to other countries that have more than one official language, but one of them is more commonly used than the other.
I suppose that Canada supporting more years of French in schools instead of the meager few years that's required now might help, but in the end the dominant language tends to be the most commonly used one in the end. A lot of other countries suffer this struggle as well, like China where a lot of the dialects are slowly becoming lost in favour of the official Mandarin or Cantonese. The official use of french in the government sphere will always keep it alive, though. This past election's speeches being half french/half english all the time was pretty interesting lol.
I believe that most of support for separatism is either for political reasons (percieved or real political differences), or a remenant of such a time when the status of french was far from certain (after all political attitudes take time to change).
I do believe the rest of Canada is paranoid about independentism, most of us agree that things aren't that bad anymore (support for independence haven't gone over 40% for a loooong time and the youth ain't much interrested in it anymore). If Quebec ever votes for independence it'll be because Canada pushed us too far if anything.
Personaly, I am ready to give a chance to live together (voted NDP and liberal to the last federal elections, Bloc Quebecois before that). I'll admit that things like the tar sands and conservatism are the things that may make me consider voting yes to a referendum though. And a free quebec would probably be good thing for the rest of Canada to be honest (getting rid of the Bloc Quebecois for exemple) and it's not like Canada NEEDS Quebec to succeed… Still, I do agree a a united Canada is probably for the best (as nationalism is truly an ugly thing) but sometimes I do wonder if Quebec couldn't have a better impact on the world by going our own way...
Better impact on the world? Can you elaborate?
The hardcore independents need to be kept in check, though. As we've seen with the shooting, far-righters are definitely a threat and the anti-immigration stance (sadly, inflated and emboldened by Trump) really has no place in Canada. Honestly though, I'm pretty scared that our next PM will be Trudeau's polar opposite due to rising resistance to immigration, from not only far-righters but regular conservatives, too. In the end, I may not agree with a lot of Trudeau's decisions, but holy fuck, at least he's admired and respected on a global scale. (apologies to 'muricans D: )
At the very least they are not welcome in the Parti Québecois, which is pretty left wing all things considered. I mean even the "charter of value" was more about laicism then anything… although it somewhat devolved. And the PQ lost their elections on it, I though it was good in theory (as religion truly doesn't have a place in the public sphere), but the some of the arguments for it where truly distasteful... (specially the whole "let's keep our christian flag" and "don't remove the crucifix from the parliement"). But let's not forget that this was a brief incident that isn't likely to repeat itself.
[EDIT] To be clear, I though the charter of value made sense at first, but on further reflexion I don't agree on the aspect of telling people how to dress, or at the very least, I think it's petty and that there are better was to fight the influence of religion on society.[EDIT]
Also, I'm a 100% certain that the terrorist that attacked the mosque in Quebec didn't vote PQ, hell, he probably depised it. The trash radios that groom such comportements are truly at odds with the independentist movement.
All in all, I'm more concerned about a federalist party like the Action Democratique du Québec (ADQ) or the conservatives of Québec appealing to xenophobes and racists.
As for the federal level, I'm somewhat confident, after all, something like half of canadians are immigrants or of recent immigrant descent (2nd or 3rd gen). I mean, even Harper wasn't anti immigrant…
That's true. Unfortunately English has become the be-all-and-end-all language across the globe, and it'll be close to impossible to just start forcing the use of french on the rest of Canada where anglophones vastly outnumber francophones. I see Canada as similar to other countries that have more than one official language, but one of them is more commonly used than the other.
I suppose that Canada supporting more years of French in schools instead of the meager few years that's required now might help, but in the end the dominant language tends to be the most commonly used one in the end. A lot of other countries suffer this struggle as well, like China where a lot of the dialects are slowly becoming lost in favour of the official Mandarin or Cantonese. The official use of french in the government sphere will always keep it alive, though. This past election's speeches being half french/half english all the time was pretty interesting lol.
Thing is, is forces us to keep the borderline discriminatory poicies (law 101, etc.) against english. Something that wouldn't be necessary in a free Quebec. It also means a lot of hassle for the rest of Canada…
I do think that the rights of englo-quebequers would be better preserved in an independent Quebec, paradoxally.
Better impact on the world? Can you elaborate?
For exemple, on the environnemental front, a lot of Quebec's efforts on the greenhouse gas are drowned in the huge emissions from the tar sands (almost all of our power comes from hydro of wind power). And pretty big efforts to reduce remaining greenhouse gas have been made in recent decades. I do believe we would be a leader in that domain (kind of already are to a lesser degree, as we are not a nation).
Also, it would be refreshing to be gone with the debate about Quebec's independence and focus on other things (both in Quebec and Canada I believe). I also think that Quebec would be one more positive influence at the united nations…
Macron seems by far the most resonnable and centrist president that France could get. I mean, it does seem that France's public function is a bit bloated and too much taxes kill taxes.
Plus, he seems to be a resonnable progressist who truly wants to make Europe work, pro-integration, not xenophobic and some good will towards nations in difficulty like Greece. Truly, I feel that politicians like that are the hope of Europe if he has his way, I feel he could truly make it work.
He's got none of the bad traits of the left (hate towards the wealth creators, illogical taxation ambitions, exageration on the role of the state, etc.) and the right (racisism, patriotism, anti-environnementalism, corruption to help lobbyists, etc.).
Taxing yachts, supercars and jewelry is the only "lefty" thing Macron said he'll do. I don't get how Macron is a centrist. And I don't get why centrism is reason and philosophy. Is it because everything that is in the middle is wisdom ?
As for the environmental policies, I guess they just don't count as a lefty thing anymore.
Also you're making it sound like he was the only pro-EU candidate in the last elections.
I think that since lots of voters are getting tired of messiah-like left politicians and last-century-thinking right politicians, that the moderate and professional look of centrist simply becomes the way to go for many.