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Not really sure how him hearing words has benefited the plot, really. It wasn't something that allowed the story in progress in certain way. He didn't hear any future treacherous words from anyone. That guy he shot at the entrance of the party was no more than a hype tool, and could have served as a hype even without the ability of hearing future words existing.
Maybe it will still play a part, though.
Not really sure how him hearing words has benefited the plot, really. It wasn't something that allowed the story in progress in certain way. He didn't hear any future treacherous words from anyone. That guy he shot at the entrance of the party was no more than a hype tool, and could have served as a hype even without the ability of hearing future words existing.
Maybe it will still play a part, though.
Telling what your opponent thinks/wants to say is just a standard battle shounen "badass" cliché, I wouldn't look too much into it.
All hail Machvise-sama, Arlong Park Character Tournament 2016 Champion!
In general. Shouldn't Cracker be awake by now? It's been one day since he has been defeated
Considering that Snack set an MIA precedent…things may not be looking too good for Biscuit Boy.
Spoiler:
Not really expecting anything, just wondering why Oda needed a complication like that in the first place.
One Piece was never really known for internal consistency of powers, Oda is more than ready to sacrifice it to make something look funny/badass. Though Katauri's CoO seems to be different from anyone else's, considering they were usually able to see someone's intent (which is why Luffy could hit/evade Enel via sheer randomness of his actions), but neither Pudding nor Sanji expected to get as flustered as they did during the wedding which effects Kaktakuri clearly saw. But then again, I'm not expecting any logic or consistency from Oda regarding this matter.
Considering that Snack set an MIA precedent…things may not be looking too good for Biscuit Boy.
Not to mention he was likely being tended to in the castle infirmary. The collapse and being buried - at least for a while - under tons of whipped cream probably didn't do much to improve his health.
One way or the other, I'm not expecting much action from him until the end of the arc.
He sure is, but he might have also been using a feint.
This is why I dislike the Observation as a concept. As it is now, allowing actual foresight instead of just feeling how your enemy will move. It's like time travel paradox.
Katakuri sees Luffy dodging > but it was his kick that made him dodge > he kicks him with the other leg because Luffy dodged the original kick that might have been a feint.Does that mean Katakuri has no control over what he's doing? If he's predicting what his enemy is doing and acting accordingly, it's like he has no real control over what he's doing. In a way, you might argue that, instead of controlling the flow of battle, he's just reacting to what he sees. Just going in circles.
How does his mind even work? Because the future he sees might change at any moment because his opponent might change his mind at any moment.
Seeing how he's forced to react based on his premonitions, that could also be exploitable. If this was HxH I'd definitely expect something like that happening, but since it's OP, I'm not really sure Oda would go that way. First of all, his battles are less cerebral and second, Luffy is maybe too straightforward to consider something like that.
Hasn't all observation haki always worked like this? From when Eneru & the Gorgon sisters appeared they've all been able to read an opponents moves like they're looking into the future. To me it just seemed that they could read the most likely outcome of the next few seconds based on what the have Observed their opponent doing. Even Ussop used it to extrapolate where the target he wanted to shoot would likely be, not where it currently was. Katakuri just happens to have this trait ramped up to eleven, which could also be a weakness if he's seeing too far ahead, Luffy already has certain defences to at least stymie it.
@Count:
Unless Katakuri is also fast and reactive. I don't think Gear Second is exactly that overwhelming for pirates this late in the game.
What about how he imits Luffy’s attack in advance ?
What about how he imits Luffy’s attack in advance ?
Imitates Luffy's attack in advance? He does it after Luffy does.
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Maybe he foresaw Luffy going for Elephant Gun with the "next is power, huh?" quote. But he still activates his move right after Luffy. Whether he has foresight or not, would the battle have ended up even slightly differently? I doubt it.
Whether Katakuri is using foresight in his attacks or not, there's no notable way it's being shown to me other than going Joseph Joestar at the end of the last chapter. So like I keep saying, I think it's a pointless and unnecessary ability. Unless it is somehow the key to how Luffy overwhelms Katakuri, but then it feels like a random tacked on weakness instead. It should have never existed. I don't think we would bat an eye at Katakuri, a Sweet Commander, being able to move faster than Luffy without foresight.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
I wonder if the 10 hours needed to get from present sunny location to cacao island is because luffy's battle with katakuri will last 10 hours. Since his last battle with a sweet commander(cracker) lasted 11 hours. And if it was said katakuri is strongest among SCs, it would have looked wierd if luffy would beat him in 1 hour or something.
Still ,if katakuri is food and luffy likes to eat, I Wonder if eating will be involved in this battle too.
Hasn't all observation haki always worked like this? From when Eneru & the Gorgon sisters appeared they've all been able to read an opponents moves like they're looking into the future. To me it just seemed that they could read the most likely outcome of the next few seconds based on what the have Observed their opponent doing. Even Ussop used it to extrapolate where the target he wanted to shoot would likely be, not where it currently was. Katakuri just happens to have this trait ramped up to eleven, which could also be a weakness if he's seeing too far ahead, Luffy already has certain defences to at least stymie it.
This is what happens when an ability isn't properly explained. We have a concept that allows users to sense presences and to predict an incoming attack. Because an enemy might unintentionally give away his attack with his body language and hostile intent.
So you have a concept that's easy to accept and it doesn't complicate things too much. But then you add a dude who has trained the ability so hard that he can now accurately see not just an attack that's going to come in a second or two but like more than double that time and not just movements but actual words someone is going to speak. Or what someone intends to do or will do next, like when Luffy caught him before dragging him into mirror world.
My problem is that the ability is literally explained as seeing into future, instead of mind reading which would have been a lot more believable to me. Considering how Observation is supposed to work. He doesn't just feel the presence of others with his mind's eye, but can read into their intent, thus not actually predicting what they will do but being told by his enemies themselves.
But that would cause some different problems, like for example Bege's betrayal and the whole plot with SH not being believable (since he planned it for a while), Pudding's machinations (if they are revealed) not being believable, SH's escape cover up by Opera not being believable etc.
So I'm hoping Katakuri's future sight wasn't created just to make the plot believable but also to be one of the causes of his loss against Luffy. I wonder if Conqueror's Haki will play a big role here, rather than Luffy thinking of such mind tricks. Like, lesser people can't possibly predict what a Conqueror intends to do or some other cliche stuff like that. Or even more simple, Conqueror burst creates a negation field for Katakuri.
@.access:
I don't think Katakuri's ability should be seen as actually seeing the future.
I mean, in a sense CoO has always been about "seeing the future" in the sense that it works in a fight by reading the enemy's energy (or whatever you call it) and predicting how they will move next, thus avoiding their attack. Technically everyone who uses it in a fight to dodge an attack is "seeing into the future" in the same way as Katakuri is.
What makes Katakuri special (at least that's my take on it) is that he has such an acute ability to read the others that by reading the flow of their energy he can predict not just how hey move immediately after that, but many seconds ahead, each of their actions, how they will react to the action of others, etc. It is a combination of a very powerful CoO and a very sharp mind with the ability to properly judge a person's behavior and their course of action. His impersonation of Joseph in the last chapter is good as an example of this, because that's exactly of Joseph does (Joseph doesn't see the future, he can predict what someone will say because he is just that smart and that amazing at reading others).
What is this then?
https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/862/page/9
What is this then?
https://jaiminisbox.com/reader/read/one-piece-2/en/0/862/page/9
I suppose you are right. If he came to that scene of Pudding crying because he had read everyone and came to the conclusion something like that would end up happening, he wouldn't be asking himself why she was crying since he would conclude she was going to cry because he knew what was going to happen.
I stand corrected.
@Count:
Imitates Luffy's attack in advance? He does it after Luffy does.
Maybe he foresaw Luffy going for Elephant Gun with the "next is power, huh?" quote. But he still activates his move right after Luffy. Whether he has foresight or not, would the battle have ended up even slightly differently? I doubt it.
Whether Katakuri is using foresight in his attacks or not, there's no notable way it's being shown to me other than going Joseph Joestar at the end of the last chapter. So like I keep saying, I think it's a pointless and unnecessary ability. Unless it is somehow the key to how Luffy overwhelms Katakuri, but then it feels like a random tacked on weakness instead. It should have never existed. I don't think we would bat an eye at Katakuri, a Sweet Commander, being able to move faster than Luffy without foresight.
the’fact that he knows luffy attack’in advance allows him to prepare a bigger one. I think Oda was quite clear on that point and the fact that Katakuri observation haki is the key element of the battle for the moment. I’m surprised you see it differently
the’fact that he knows luffy attack’in advance allows him to prepare a bigger one. I think Oda was quite clear on that point and the fact that Katakuri observation haki is the key element of the battle for the moment. I’m surprised you see it differently
Or he can just do bigger attacks as a default and enlarge his size however he wants. Katakuri activated his attack after Luffy did, so all he needs to do is make something bigger than what is in front of him. His foresight plays so little a role compared to his Devil Fruit, and I don't think his Observation is playing a big role in his fighting style at all. All Katakuri keeps talking about is being stronger and faster than Luffy. That he is a superior Luffy. Not once has he mentioned his foresight being his impenetrable advantage like Enel did with his Mantra.
Do we really need to post the panels of Katakuri showcasing he knew what was coming next? I don't see why this has to be mutually exclusive. Maybe, and hear me out here, maybe he's emphasizing both his DF's abilities and his CoO. You're going to be in a really hard-pressed position if you're seriously arguing Katakuri isn't using CoO prominently in this fight.
My question however is what is the difference? Does Katakuri use or need his Observation Haki to kick Luffy's ass in even a single panel that he can't already do by default, regardless of if the foresight is in use or not. The battle is only majorly highlighting how Katakuri's mochi is a superior version of Luffy's rubber. Not that Katakuri's foresight is impossible to counter like when Luffy had to combat Satori and Enel's mantra. Maybe that will come into play later in the fight. But thus far, Katakuri's foresight being an advantage is a footnote at best.
Take out Katakuri's foresight and name a single thing that changes in even one page of this arc aside from some of Katakuri's quotes changing and Jigra being shot. It is an unnecessary ability that never needed to exist and doesn't add anything to the character besides random hype.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
My question however is what is the difference? Does Katakuri use or need his Observation Haki to kick Luffy's ass in even a single panel thst he can't already do by default, regardless of if the foresight is in use or not. The battle is only majorly highlighting how Katakuri's mochi is a superior version of Luffy's rubber. Not that Katakuri's foresight is impossible to counter like when Luffy had to combat Sasori and Enel's mantra. Maybe that will come into play later in the fight. But thus far, Katakuri's foresight being an advantage is a footnote.
Take out Katakuri's foresight and name a single thing that changes in even one page of this arc aside from some of Katakuri's quotes changing and Jigra being shot.
Well, it sure as hell helps him know which move to copy. >_>
He'd probably dodge more otherwise. But it's pretty clear he has something to prove against the Rubber fruit (it's probably considered the supreme grade to the Mochi fruit).
How does it even help him know what to copy when he always sees Luffy's attacks hefore making his own versions a few seconds later?
And why does Katakuri even need to dodge anything when Hawk Gatling blasts through him ineffectively like he is an invulnerable Logia? It's not like Doflamingo and Cracker haven't overwhelmed Luffy in physical speed sometimes too.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
I've just ate a creme brûlée with caramel sauce and vanilla ice cream… and the first thought of my mind when i began eating was Brûlée's face xD this Oda, trolls me even when i'm having a good time.
As for Katakuri, he's awesome.
He's constantly threatening Luffy, because just as Kdom points, the reader thinks that he's constantly seeing what Luffy will do, he may only counterattack after Luffy's preparing his, but you can't deny that by his own control of his ability he's doing it.
Enel's mantra checked the mind's opponent... Katakuri checks the flow of time, at first i didn't like it, got to say... but now i like Katakuri, so i don't mind xp
@Count:
How does it even help him know what to copy when he always sees Luffy's attacks hefore making his own versions a few seconds later?
And why does Katakuri even need to dodge anything when Hawk Gatling blasts through him ineffectively like he is an invulnerable Logia? It's not like Doflamingo and Cracker haven't overwhelmed Luffy in physical speed sometimes too.
We still do not know if his invulnerability is due to a unique ability of his fruit power, to a superior busoshoku haki, or if he is predicting where Luffy's punches are going to land and opening holes in those places.
@Count:
How does it even help him know what to copy when he always sees Luffy's attacks hefore making his own versions a few seconds later?
He initiated his own version of Hawk Gatling immediately, not a few seconds after Luffy. The only other instance where he did something a few seconds after Luffy was the Elephant Gun and you could just as much argue that he was taking more time to make his bigger. And he wouldn't bother to dodge (or phase) because he knows his counter will be effective due to his CoO. He also caught Luffy mid-soru without using any kind of speed boosting technique himself, that's clear CoO usage.
And why does Katakuri even need to dodge anything when Hawk Gatling blasts through him ineffectively like he is an invulnerable Logia? It's not like Doflamingo and Cracker haven't overwhelmed Luffy in physical speed sometimes too.
Dodge/phase, same difference. The point is he wants to counter and overwhelm Luffy's attacks. Otherwise, as you said, he'd just phase instead. The way I see it, there's two options here: either A) he's using his CoO to copy Luffy's moves and counter him; he's being stubborn and wants to prove Mochi > Rubber and it might play into his defeat because he'll want to stubbornly prove that his fruit is better when he should just get out of the way or B) he doesn't care at all about who's fruit is better and until Luffy can effectively get around his DF, he has no real reason to use the additional layer of security that is his CoO (it would become an issue later in the fight).
Luffy hasn't even landed a hit yet. If this fight will see a conclusion, we still really haven't even seen anything.
@Jazzy:
He initiated his own version of Hawk Gatling immediately, not a few seconds after Luffy. The only other instance where he did something a few seconds after Luffy was the Elephant Gun and you could just as much argue that he was taking more time to make his bigger. And he wouldn't bother to dodge (or phase) because he knows his counter will be effective due to his CoO. He also caught Luffy mid-soru without using any kind of speed boosting technique himself, that's clear CoO usage.
Actually, we don't ever see who started Hawk Gatling first. We cut to the Mirror World when they are already in the middle of ora versus muda-ing each other.
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So it's impossible to tell if foresight played a role here. And the time to make giant punches is irrelevant when it's pretty clear that they only take a few seconds to make at most. He doesn't bother to dodge because he's enjoying waving around his mochi superiority to Luffy, not because he needs to counter Luffy. Why else would he bother to keep replicating his attacks instead of using his own? He's practically playing with him. And why does he need to use a speed boost attack to catch up with Luffy when there are already people naturally as fast or faster when looking at the most powerful people in the Grand Line? Would you say that Gear Second is enough to catch an Admiral or Shanks off guard?
But whether or not Katakuri used his foresight or not isn't the real problem. I can concede that certain moments like dodging Luffy's Jet Stamp could be due to foresight. My real issue is that even if Katakuri is using his foresight for these moments, it changes nothing about what is being emphasized in this fight as to why Katakuri is able to obstruct Luffy. His mochi powers. So the foresight, if it is used, comes off as tacked on and unnecessary.
Dodge/phase, same difference. The point is he wants to counter and overwhelm Luffy's attacks. Otherwise, as you said, he'd just phase instead. The way I see it, there's two options here: either A) he's using his CoO to copy Luffy's moves and counter him; he's being stubborn and wants to prove Mochi > Rubber and it might play into his defeat because he'll want to stubbornly prove that his fruit is better when he should just get out of the way or B) he doesn't care at all about who's fruit is better and until Luffy can effectively get around his DF, he has no real reason to use the additional layer of security that is his CoO (it would become an issue later in the fight).
Luffy hasn't even landed a hit yet. If this fight will see a conclusion, we still really haven't even seen anything.
See, you even admit it's the same difference. There's no point in Katakuri using foresight other than for the sake of having random minor ability to troll Luffy with. The only explanation you gave that I would like is the last one so that Katakuri's foresight actually becomes relevant in a way that his mochi powers and base physical stats aren't already capable of.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
Actually, we don't ever see who started Hawk Gatling first. We cut to the Mirror World when they are already in the middle of ora versus muda-ing each other.
! [qimg]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pyPTepGDh70/WcUbh3CIRvI/AAAAAAAEmqE/tbdkRDzr5X4qusfsxkiCSgnkibbuAQjpwCHMYBhgL/s16000/0879-012.png[/qimg]
! [qimg]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-L_JWgL8NCcg/WcUbiavyzhI/AAAAAAAEmqI/tf_uZVctzBg-2FnIjesd0Y_LCfrJG3SmgCHMYBhgL/s16000/0879-013.png[/qimg]So it's impossible to tell if foresight played a role here.
I don't feel like making huge posts so I'm going to respond in snippets.
Why would Luffy be surprised if they've already been in their gatling brawl? The surprise implies that the attacks just started.
And the time to make giant punches is irrelevant when it's pretty clear that they only take a few seconds to make at most. He doesn't bother to dodge because he's enjoying waving around his mochi superiority to Luffy, not because he needs to counter Luffy. Why else would he bother to keep replicating his attacks instead of using his own? He's practically playing with him.
The CoO allows him to dick wag his mochi superiority otherwise he wouldn't be able to effectively counter Luffy's attacks with copies. You don't believe his CoO plays a part in it, I do.
And why does he need to use a speed boost attack to catch up with Luffy when there are already people naturally as fast or faster when looking at the most powerful people in the Grand Line? Would you say that Gear Second is enough to catch an Admiral or Shanks off guard?
He uses some form of soru before Luffy does but doesn't use it to catch Luffy mid-soru. And yeah, people wouldn't be able to catch Shanks or the Admirals off-guard. It's almost like they have high level CoO on top of their presumed speed.
But whether or not Katakuri used his foresight or not isn't the real problem. I can concede that certain moments like dodging Luffy's Jet Stamp could be due to foresight. My real issue is that even if Katakuri is using his foresight for these moments, it changes nothing about what is being emphasized in this fight as to why Katakuri is able to obstruct Luffy. His mochi powers. So the foresight, if it is used, comes off as tacked on and unnecessary.
The fight isn't over. Like I said, it could play into his defeat or play into his strengths later in the fight.
See, you even admit it's the same difference. There's no point in Katakuri using foresight other than for the sake of having random minor ability to troll Luffy with. The only explanation you gave that I would like is the last one so that Katakuri's foresight actually becomes relevant in a way that his mochi powers and base physical stats aren't already capable of.
Only, I'm of the mind that he's already been using his CoO. And I'm sufficiently satisfied so far with the portrayals of its usage because he hasn't even been hit yet. I think you're conflating personal preference on how you would like to see these abilities executed with the actual story that's being portrayed. Occam's razor dictates that "the guy that was literally introduced as super CoO man" and not "super Mochi man" is using CoO, and we can infer that it's playing into his fighting style and choices.
And my suggestions obviously aren't the only ones that could happen anyways. It could be that Oda has something else entirely in mind.
@Jazzy:
I don't feel like making huge posts so I'm going to respond in snippets.
Why would Luffy be surprised if they've already been in their gatling brawl? The surprise implies that the attacks just started.
Because they took a brief break where Katakuri dealt a tidbit of trash talk, allowing the dust to settle and for Luffy to actually see that Katakuri copied his limbs to copy and counter Gatling because their fists aren't moving at super speeds he can barely perceive? Actually, if Katakuri attacked Luffy first instead of vice-versa, don't you think it would be more likely that Luffy WOULDN'T be surprised? Whereas if he starts attacking first, it's easy to not get a good look at how your opponent is countering your attacks at super high speed?
The CoO allows him to dick wag his mochi superiority otherwise he wouldn't be able to effectively counter Luffy's attacks with copies. You don't believe his CoO plays a part in it, I do.
Except that he doesn't need CoO to copy Luffy's attacks. Even if he has been using that, all needs is to see Luffy start forming an attack for one or two seconds before immediately replicating that with a superior version. I'm not focusing on how his CoO plays a part in it. I'm focusing on how even if it does, it doesn't really matter writing-wise. Katakuri using foresight or copying Luffy's attacks from normal sight are very interchangeable, which makes the foresight feel unnecessary and quite honestly pointless in existing in what we have seen of the fight thus far.
He uses some form of soru before Luffy does but doesn't use it to catch Luffy mid-soru. And yeah, people wouldn't be able to catch Shanks or the Admirals off-guard. It's almost like they have high level CoO on top of their presumed speed.
Except that Oda hardly ever emphasizes when characters use CoO, especially post-timeskip. So it's almost always impossible to tell. We don't even know if Doflamingo can even use CoO because he has never stated it, yet he is still able to catch up with and counter Luffy until Gear Fourth was activated. Same with Cracker. Which is why Observation is a dumb and useless concept in this manga outside of Skypiea and explaining how Fujitora is combat efficient since it hardly ever matters post-timeskip, along with Armament Haki outside of vague power levels. But that's a whole other discussion I could go on about in how Haki in general shouldn't exist outside of countering Logias.
The fight isn't over. Like I said, it could play into his defeat or play into his strengths later in the fight.
It could. But I am talking about what we have seen from the fight thus far to voice my thoughts on if this trend does continue. If it doesn't and the foresight actually becomes a big thing, great. I hope that happens. But the emphasis of the battle is being placed primarily on the mochi superiority, and Katakuri hasn't done anything useful with his foresight in the entire arc outside of shooting Jigra. He predicts Bege's betrayal. Bege still gets off and escapes. He tries to snipe Sanji with a jellybean. Sanji still dodges it anyway somehow while using inferior Observation Haki at best. It's such a pointless ability for Oda to have created when Katakuri already has his mochi powers.
Only, I'm of the mind that he's already been using his CoO. And I'm sufficiently satisfied so far with the portrayals of its usage because he hasn't even been hit yet. I think you're conflating personal preference on how you would like to see these abilities executed with the actual story that's being portrayed. Occam's razor dictates that "the guy that was literally introduced as super CoO man" and not "super Mochi man" is using CoO, and we can infer that it's playing into his fighting style and choices.
Occam's razor dictates that if Luffy and Katakuri are constantly measuring dicks with rubber and mochi, the fight is going to focus on rubber and mochi combat as the highlight. Occam's razor dictates that if Katakuri's foresight hasn't been much of a help for his entire existence this arc past his chapter introduction, it's going to stay that way. You shouldn't really use occam's razor when making predictions about fiction because of how authors will go out of their way to make the unexpected happen (in balance with subtle and consistent logic if they are good writers). It's ironic because what I am saying right now is actually supporting your argument that Katakuri's foresight could play a bigger unexpected role in the fight, like when Luffy activates Gear Fourth to change up the game.
And I'm not satisfied with the portrayal of his foresight because Katakuri's not going to get hit anyways when every physical blow he's come into contact with flies right through him, regardless of what explanation you can decipher for that happening.
And my suggestions obviously aren't the only ones that could happen anyways. It could be that Oda has something else entirely in mind.
Of course. I just hope it makes sense. Everything about Katakuri leaves me feeling indifferent or perplexed, from his generic badass design to having so many abilities with little intuitive segues and varied uses for them making some redundant/excessive. Which includes both the foresight and a spear. Why does he need a spear when he is already winning he fight and is "Luffy, but better" with additional sticky abilities"? It doesn't even aesthetically fit in with the themes of his design or powers, he just has it to look cool, I guess. And that applies to his foresight as a concept for him to use and how it has been executed too, which is my issue.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
Because they took a brief break where Katakuri dealt a tidbit of trash talk, allowing the dust to settle and for Luffy to actually see that Katakuri copied his limbs to copy and counter Gatling because their fists aren't moving at super speeds he can barely perceive? Actually, if Katakuri attacked Luffy first instead of vice-versa, don't you think it would be more likely that Luffy WOULDN'T be surprised? Whereas if he starts attacking first, it's easy to not get a good look at how your opponent is countering your attacks at super high speed?
I think Katakuri is reacting, not initiating. He's reacting because he wants to prove his fruit is superior. He wants Luffy to launch his attack so that he can beat it. He knows what attack is coming so he's able to react and replicate it.
Except that he doesn't need CoO to copy Luffy's attacks. Even if he has been using that, all needs is to see Luffy start forming an attack for one or two seconds before immediately replicating that with a superior version. I'm not focusing on how his CoO plays a part in it. I'm focusing on how even if it does, it doesn't really matter writing-wise. Katakuri using foresight or copying Luffy's attacks from normal sight are very interchangeable, which makes the foresight feel unnecessary and quite honestly pointless in existing in what we have seen of the fight thus far.
Except, no one in the manga has ever parried gatling. They've dodged it, blocked it and phased it but they've never parried it. This is where the inference that CoO is being used comes into play. He's faster than Luffy, sure. But what makes more sense? Him being zomg super duper fast and mounting a superior attack (which honestly, I would call bullshit if not for his CoO) or him using his future sight to be able to effectively use his speed and counter?
Except that Oda hardly ever emphasizes when characters use CoO, especially post-timeskip. So it's almost always impossible to tell. We don't even know if Doflamingo can even use CoO because he has never stated it, yet he is still able to catch up with and counter Luffy until Gear Fourth was activated. Same with Cracker. Which is why Observation is a dumb and useless concept in this manga outside of Skypiea and explaining how Fujitora is combat efficient since it hardly ever matters post-timeskip, along with Armament Haki outside of vague power levels. But that's a whole other discussion I could go on about in how Haki in general shouldn't exist outside of countering Logias.
My understanding would be that observation counters observation. And Doflamingo, in my opinion, has exhibited CoO usage before. I'm pretty sure I've seen him do the neck roll dodge before but even if he hasn't, he was able to put up armament haki in response to Luffy's Gear 4th attacks. I'd argue that's CoO usage to mount a defense at the last second. Personally, I think haki is a fun and interesting concept but if you don't like it there's nothing much I can do about that. I'm not going to argue against your personal preferences.
It could. But I am talking about what we have seen from the fight thus far to voice my thoughts on if this trend does continue. If it doesn't and the foresight actually becomes a big thing, great. I hope that happens. But the emphasis of the battle is being placed primarily on the mochi superiority, and Katakuri hasn't done anything useful with his foresight in the entire arc outside of shooting Jigra. He predicts Bege's betrayal. Bege still gets off and escapes. He tries to snipe Sanji with a jellybean. Sanji still dodges it anyway somehow while using inferior Observation Haki at best. It's such a pointless ability for Oda to have created when Katakuri already has his mochi powers.
That's why we need to see more. Was the wedding a showcase of potential weaknesses his CoO has that could play into his defeat? Maybe. We don't know. If it doesn't play into his defeat (or in his strengths later in the fight) then yeah, it's a pretty dumb tacked on ability.
Occam's razor dictates that if Luffy and Katakuri are constantly measuring dicks with rubber and mochi, the fight is going to focus on rubber and mochi combat as the highlight. Occam's razor dictates that if Katakuri's foresight hasn't been much of a help for his entire existence this arc past his chapter introduction, it's going to stay that way.
They're not mutually exclusive. You can use occam's razor for both!
My idea is that mochi is the inferior grade to rubber. His usage of CoO in conjunction with his devil fruit is what allows him to one-up Luffy. Of course, if this theory doesn't pan out then I don't know what the hell Oda is trying to get across here with the comparisons. If Luffy's fruit is the inferior then err… okay? CoO would just be tacked on in that case.
But my inference comes from Luffy saying "as if rubber would lose to mochi" and Katakuri consistently emphasizing that his is better. It makes more sense to me that rubber is supposed to be the superior grade.
You shouldn't really use occam's razor when making predictions about fiction because of how authors will go out of their way to make the unexpected happen (in balance with subtle and consistent logic if they are good writers). It's ironic because what I am saying right now is actually supporting your argument that Katakuri's foresight could play a bigger unexpected role in the fight, like when Luffy activates Gear Fourth to change up the game.
You can use it for a series that is far more consistent than its peers. This isn't Bleach or Naruto. And this is in regards to mechanical applications of abilities, not story progression.
Yes, I do expect the guy that was stated as having super duper good CoO to use CoO in his fighting style.
And I'm not satisfied with the portrayal of his foresight because Katakuri's not going to get hit anyways when every physical blow he's come into contact with flies right through him, regardless of what explanation you can decipher for that happening.
That would fundamentally change the fight then. It would be about "how am I going to get passed the phasing" ala Crocodile. Like I said before, I think he's using his CoO to copy Luffy, you don't. The fight is going to be unremarkable if your expectations for Katakuri's abilities are that he can do anything he wants because he's just straight up better rather than if he's utilizing his known abilities (CoO being highlighted as one of them).
Of course. I just hope it makes sense. Everything about Katakuri leaves me feeling indifferent or perplexed, from his generic badass design to having so many abilities with little intuitive segues and varied uses for them making some redundant/excessive. Which includes both the foresight and a spear. Why does he need a spear when he is already winning he fight and is "Luffy, but better" with additional sticky abilities"? It doesn't even aesthetically fit in with the themes of his design or powers, he just has it to look cool, I guess. And that applies to his foresight as a concept for him to use and how it has been executed too, which is my issue.
Yeah, the spear is kinda weird. No arguing there. xD
And yeah, like I said before, personal preference. I don't particularly find anything wrong with Katakuri. I see it as juxtaposition with all the sweets and goofy, Disney-esque characters this arc.
We still do not know if his invulnerability is due to a unique ability of his fruit power, to a superior busoshoku haki, or if he is predicting where Luffy's punches are going to land and opening holes in those places.
I think it's safe to say it's unrelated to haki and I think that your first and third option are essentially identical. A regular paramecia shouldn't be able to open holes in their body usually. Definitely a special fruit thing.
As for the debate Count is waging - I think it's almost objectively true that everything he is saying is correct if you use only what is being shown in the manga as evidence, but it's also logically true that (even if Oda isn't doing a good enough job showing it) his authorial intent is for us to feel like his advanced observational haki is contributing to his battle prowess.
Favorite thing aside from One Piece is movies! Updated favorite films: The Passion of Joan of Arc / Alien / It's a Wonderful Life / Casablanca / One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest / The Apartment / Nights of Cabiria / Dr. Strangelove / All About Eve / Amadeus / Man Who Shot Liberty Valance
I think it's safe to say it's unrelated to haki and I think that your first and third option are essentially identical. A regular paramecia shouldn't be able to open holes in their body usually. Definitely a special fruit thing.
As for the debate Count is waging - I think it's almost objectively true that everything he is saying is correct if you use only what is being shown in the manga as evidence, but it's also logically true that (even if Oda isn't doing a good enough job showing it) his authorial intent is for us to feel like his advanced observational haki is contributing to his battle prowess.
If Oda expects us to think that Katakuri's foresight is an integral part of his moveset, he's doing a bit of a half-assed job. It doesn't come across as anything more than a minor advantage that doesn't really add anything to the battle. And I'm almost convinced he's going to ignore it if Luffy finds a way to defeat or stalemate Katakuri.
@Jazzy:
I think Katakuri is reacting, not initiating. He's reacting because he wants to prove his fruit is superior. He wants Luffy to launch his attack so that he can beat it. He knows what attack is coming so he's able to react and replicate it.
I can agree with that assessment. I am only saying that even if he can see the attack a few seconds ahead, it barely matters. If Katakuri didn't have foresight and yet was still able to create superior versions of Luffy's attacks, would you find any of the things Katakuri has done to be weird and not simply impressive physical/tactical skills?
Except, no one in the manga has ever parried gatling. They've dodged it, blocked it and phased it but they've never parried it. This is where the inference that CoO is being used comes into play. He's faster than Luffy, sure. But what makes more sense? Him being zomg super duper fast and mounting a superior attack (which honestly, I would call bullshit if not for his CoO) or him using his future sight to be able to effectively use his speed and counter?
Or I can believe it's due to the simpler explanation of nobody having powers similar to Luffy, thus never being able to parry Luffy in the first place. Either makes sense, and the latter does sound better on paper, but both happening simultaneously is redundant.
Seriously, what is so hard to believe about a Yonko Commander seeing an attack and immediately copying it to fight back in a few seconds? It's not even like Luffy's attacks are anything mentally complex, it's just stretching and inflating.
My understanding would be that observation counters observation. And Doflamingo, in my opinion, has exhibited CoO usage before. I'm pretty sure I've seen him do the neck roll dodge before but even if he hasn't, he was able to put up armament haki in response to Luffy's Gear 4th attacks. I'd argue that's CoO usage to mount a defense at the last second. Personally, I think haki is a fun and interesting concept but if you don't like it there's nothing much I can do about that. I'm not going to argue against your personal preferences.
I argue that is just Doflamingo being that quick and to enphasize the power of Gear Fourth. I can concede that Katakuri can be using foresight in his fight, but outside of that, I think you're giving Oda too much credit for how he inserts Observation into fights.
I don't see what's fun about Oda arbitrarily assigning "superior" levels of Armament Haki despite that purely being based on spiritual willpower. I don't see what's fun about characters having Spidey Senses and always needing to have Observation Haki sidelined so that they don't become overpowered or make fights into convoluted bouts of meticulous wits that try to sound bigger than they are like a Hunter x Hunter chapter. I don't see what's fun about Conquerer's Haki only being good for knocking out fodder as a shallow attempt to make a character we already know is powerful look powerful to build up hype and all of the forum discussions it spawns about if it will actually be useful because of how pointless it appears to be as a superpower. I don't see what's fun about non-Gear Fourth Luffy's normal punches, Armament punches, and Gear Second all being virtually the same in strength and virtually useless at this point in the series, along with Elephant Gun.
Man, I hate Haki. We don't need to get into an argument about that, I'm just voicing my thoughts.
That's why we need to see more. Was the wedding a showcase of potential weaknesses his CoO has that could play into his defeat? Maybe. We don't know. If it doesn't play into his defeat (or in his strengths later in the fight) then yeah, it's a pretty dumb tacked on ability.
And until we see more, I'm going to voice my thoughts on what the fight seems to be focusing on if it continues like this. We have no idea if the wedding is a potential showcase of Katakuri's weaknesses since nothing seemed peculiar about how his abilities work. I am always game for Oda to surprise, but I am not going to place blind faith in him either for a concept that he clearly fades out of existence most of the time so that fights still look compelling.
They're not mutually exclusive. You can use occam's razor for both!
My idea is that mochi is the inferior grade to rubber. His usage of CoO in conjunction with his devil fruit is what allows him to one-up Luffy. Of course, if this theory doesn't pan out then I don't know what the hell Oda is trying to get across here with the comparisons. If Luffy's fruit is the inferior then err… okay? CoO would just be tacked on in that case.
But my inference comes from Luffy saying "as if rubber would lose to mochi" and Katakuri consistently emphasizing that his is better. It makes more sense to me that rubber is supposed to be the superior grade.
And this highlights the difference in our thoughts. I think that Katakuri can give Luffy just as good a fight without foresight while you see it being integral to his fighting style. Given how fast characters are in One Piece in general ever since Alabasta or so, I am sticking to my guns harder than mochi stuck to Big Father's cannons.
You just reminded me of how much I abhor the concept of Devil Fruit supremacy lol. No matter, I think it would be more interesting if Luffy is inferior. That way, he has to rely on a specific unique property of his powers to win, like his bounciness or something. This is the tables being turned on what happened between Luffy and Enel. Luffy's bounciness could be something that Katakuri's stickiness can't truly replicate.
[QUOTEYou can use it for a series that is far more consistent than its peers. This isn't Bleach or Naruto. And this is in regards to mechanical applications of abilities, not story progression.
Yes, I do expect the guy that was stated as having super duper good CoO to use CoO in his fighting style.
Not really. Occam's razor would have dictated that Vivi and Paulie would have joined the Straw Hats. Occam's razor would dictate that Ace would live because nobody ever dies in the present in One Piece and Luffy saved him from the scaffold. Occam's razor would dictate that the obvious suspect with a criminal record is the culprit in a murder mystery story instead of the butler who was coincidentally at most of the crime scenes. Occam's razor is not something that should be held on a pedestal when evaluating fiction, even if it's written good. Authors almost instinctively want to go for explanations that are unexpected and complex, which goes against the very basis of how Occam's razor is about favoring the simplest answer. Now, I am obviously not saying that authors should pull anything out of thin air for the sake of being surprising because that's cheap and stupid. They need to subtly lay the groundwork for these things to be believable and satisfying for the narrative.
And mechanical applications of abilities tie into how an author will want to write the flow of the battle and introduce new moves, advantages and disadvantages, etc.
On paper, I would agree with you. But Oda has executed Observation Haki in such a half-assed ambiguous fashion post-Skypiea that I don't have that much faith in Oda when he always likes to conveniently ignore Observation Haki or somehow lazily expects us to do the work for him of assuming every big combatant is using it in a fight without intuitive visual cues and statements. Besides, Katakuri's foresight was only praised in the context of how it could mess up the wedding. Now all the praise towards Katakuri is focused on how he's superior to Luffy's Devil Fruit abilities.
That would fundamentally change the fight then. It would be about "how am I going to get passed the phasing" ala Crocodile. Like I said before, I think he's using his CoO to copy Luffy, you don't. The fight is going to be unremarkable if your expectations for Katakuri's abilities are that he can do anything he wants because he's just straight up better rather than if he's utilizing his known abilities (CoO being highlighted as one of them).
You could do both. It's not like a villain can't have a contingency or extra layer of their fighting style to overcome after the protagonist's first solution seems to be found. Just like when a character awakens/shows a power-up after getting nowhere earlier in a fight and seems to have a villain on the ropes before they somehow use their own special power-up or attack.
Expecting katakuri, a Yonko Commander, to be strong and fast enough to copy and outmaneuver Luffy is not me thinking "he can do whatever he wants". If there's anybody that thinks Katakuri can do anything he wants, it's Oda with how Katakuri's special abilities include five second foresight, multiple extendable/inflatable limbs, mochi stickiness, Haki-immune intangibility, jellybean sniping, mochi constructs such as earplugs, and a trident hidden within his body. I swear, all of that coupled with looking stereotypically badass design-wise with no depth or connection to his characterization, having superior versions of Luffy's attacks and having a bland stoic personality aside from the one or two moments he cares about his family makes him almost look like an amateurish fanfic character.
Yeah, the spear is kinda weird. No arguing there. xD
Good. Kizaru doesn't need a sword either if he's already got light speed kicks, mirror hopping, and explosive laser beams. But at least the sword is made of light, I guess.
And yeah, like I said before, personal preference. I don't particularly find anything wrong with Katakuri. I see it as juxtaposition with all the sweets and goofy, Disney-esque characters this arc.
I kind of find mostly everything to be wrong with Katakuri. I never thought somebody as creative as Oda would make one of his major arc characters be like that. And I don't mind Katakuri being "darker" than his siblings, and would probably ignore him as is not the main arc antagonist. But he's almost a surrogate for Big Mom as Luffy's big solo arc fight until Luffy gets out of the Mirror World, and that pushes him too much in the spotlight for me to tolerate him without question.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
They have barely started to tango. The real fight starts now.
So how do you exactly make a foresight integral for a fighting style in any situation anyway? Nighteye from MHA for example could theorically do all the things he done without his quirk.
@Count:
Expecting katakuri, a Yonko Commander, to be strong and fast enough to copy and outmaneuver Luffy is not me thinking "he can do whatever he wants". If there's anybody that thinks Katakuri can do anything he wants, it's Oda with how Katakuri's special abilities include five second foresight, multiple extendable/inflatable limbs, mochi stickiness, Haki-immune intangibility, jellybean sniping, mochi constructs such as earplugs, and a trident hidden within his body. I swear, all of that coupled with looking stereotypically badass design-wise with no depth or connection to his characterization, having superior versions of Luffy's attacks and having a bland stoic personality aside from the one or two moments he cares about his family makes him almost look like an amateurish fanfic character.
Get over yourself. How does his badass appearance not add depth to his characterization? It adds contrast to his unique personality of being a caring older brother but looking like your typical badass archetype. How does that not add depth to his character? It is because he looks like that and acts that way that makes him unique. If Oda hadn't gone over the top with his appearance it wouldn't matter much that he's a caring older brother, and by all measures a nobler character than the protagonist. How is his personality bland? Just because he doesn't have useless quirks that add nothing to the story doesn't mean he's bland. Being stoic and serious is more interesting than having a character with annoying, not even funny "quirks". For his character it would feel weird if he acted any other way, or to put it another way his personality is justified given from what we know about him.
And what is this nonsense of him feeling like a fanfic character? What does a fanfic character even mean. This is something i could say about every character in the series by your logic.
If Katakuri was on Kaido's crew no one would complain.
@The:
Get over yourself.
I'm not forcing you to agree with me. I would like to keep this polite and respectful on a personal level.
How does his badass appearance not add depth to his characterization?
Tell me how spikes, cowboy spurs, skull tattoos, black clothing, facial scars, and a masking scarf and connect to anything about Katakuri aside from being "serious" or different from his colorful siblings. The most personality his design has is the pink colors on his tattoos and hair that represent his Charlotte heritage. I don't have any issues with any of those physical traits individually, I even love all of them in their own right. But being put together for such a character comes off as an attempt to make them look cool by picking up and slapping on things that people often say look cool while ignoring the context of why they're cool. The only way Katakuri's design could even make sense is if he was some sort of biker or gangster, but he's not. He is a mochi man who can see the future that is one of the highest ranked officers of a pirate crew themed around food and fairy tales.
By the way, I don't hate Katakuri's design. I can give it credit for looking balanced and stylish in its own right. Not every piece of attire on a character has to have a meaning, it can just be done for fun if the artist thinks it looks cool. It doesn't hurt my eyes and I would never confuse Katakuri for somebody else in this series, fortunately. It only makes me indifferent because of how there seems to be no reason he wears all of that in terms of diegetic or real life theming. Nothing about his design seems to be informed by the character himself rather than a whim of the author because he needed to make a new design in a couple hours or less to meet a deadline.
It adds contrast to his unique personality of being a caring older brother but looking like your typical badass archetype. How does that not add depth to his character? It is because he looks like that and acts that way that makes him unique.
Caring for his siblings is hardly unique when other members of his family have shown similar types of affection. Like Opera, Mont-d'Or, and Galette not wanting Moscato get his lifespan stolen by Big Mom. Or everybody worrying that the Straw Hats killed Lola. Or Mont-d'Or, Opera, and Galette getting upset that Cracker was defeated and summoned a whole army to get revenge on Luffy and Nami. It doesn't change or enhance him looking like a generic badass archetype, which you admit, because it's barely emphasized to be that special. All he has in terms of compassion is that one time he saved Galette and told her to calm down, and telling Luffy to not harm his precious siblings. Two one sentence panel quotes in over twenty chapters. Not exactly much to support a supposedly unique personality.
It's not even that I don't think Oda could pull of what you're saying when it comes to making a tough guy that surprisingly cares about his family. But Katakuri isn't being emphasized to be that special at all. He cares about his siblings like the rest of the family does. Examples of this that I have seen actually done right would be the likes of Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei, Robin, and Señor Pink.
If Oda hadn't gone over the top with his appearance it wouldn't matter much that he's a caring older brother, and by all measures a nobler character than the protagonist.
Did you just seriously say that Katakuri is nobler than Luffy? I get what you're trying to say about how Katakuri's compassion is noble, but c'mon now. He's a definitely a morally grey-esque character since Luffy tried to help out with killing his pirate emperor mom, but that's still an outrageous claim to make when Luffy sacrificed himself to save his crew by dragging Katakuri into the Mirror World.
How is his personality bland? Just because he doesn't have useless quirks that add nothing to the story doesn't mean he's bland. Being stoic and serious is more interesting than having a character with annoying, not even funny "quirks". For his character it would feel weird if he acted any other way, or to put it another way his personality is justified given from what we know about him.
How are traits like stoic and serious interesting on their own? When you are just stoic and serious, all you do is have a blank face and talk about what's happening around you while you fight. That doesn't stand out. That doesn't have anything. They're bare minimum traits that anybody could have. It's not like I have a problem with a character being stoic and serious, but you need more than that to make for a compelling character. Look at Zoro, He's stoic and serious. But he is also an alcoholic. He's lazy. He often gets lost. He often gets pumped up about fights to the point of growing sadistic smiles on his face. He lays down the law when his or the crew's pride is on the line.
Katakuri doesn't need a funny gag (which wouldn't change my opinion at all. Vergo forgetting things and leaving food on his face doesn't make him just bland in the same way as Katakuri) or to crack jokes. He doesn't even need to smile or show his face. Just something other than only being serious. Because that isn't anything. Any character can be serious. All serious means is that you're focused on something without joking about it. Crocodile was serious. Whitebeard was serious. Akainu was serious. But I can say more about how they look and how they act compared to Katakuri easily.
And what is this nonsense of him feeling like a fanfic character? What does a fanfic character even mean. This is something i could say about every character in the series by your logic.
Throwing on random skills that barely have anything to do with each other onto a character, indicative of an amateur writer who does know about or care for making consistent and balanced powers that can be varied in how they are used. Shallow attire attempts at looking badass that come off as generic/stereotypical/cliche, where more thought is put into putting on things that are thought to be cool instead of coming up with things that have actual reasons to be cool. A stoic personality that only stands because it's so much more lackluster and boring than everybody else. Powers that are like the protagonist's but more powerful for the sake of being more powerful, making them the protagonist's dark mirror. These are the qualities of characters made by fans, mostly younger ones, that have shallow ideas informed by cliches about what looks mature, dark, and epic.
Feel free to disagree with me. You should like Katakuri as much as you want if he appeals to you. All of this is strictly my opinion.
So would being a dwarf make him a non bland character 
I don’t know, we have barelly seen him in the serie. Beside a few characters of mum family (Perospero, Pudding, Chiffon in mind) who were a little developped, most of the others just have their design for us to remember them. So this discussion sounds a bit silly to him. Is it really that important to argue ? Katakuri role in the serie is just to help Luffy get stronger not to become the next strawhat
So would being a dwarf make him a non bland character
Of course not. But it would make me unironically laugh at Katakuri because of how it would be subvert how supposedly badass he initially looked lol. Damnit, I need my Dwarf antagonist.
I don’t know, we have barelly seen him in the serie. Beside a few characters of mum family (Perospero, Pudding, Chiffon in mind) who were a little developped, most of the others just have their design for us to remember them. So this discussion sounds a bit silly to him. Is it really that important to argue ? Katakuri role in the serie is just to help Luffy get stronger not to become the next strawhat
I can ignore the design. It's moreso the whole quantity of things that bother me about him. And notice how you referenced the Big Mom members that are important to the plot. Is Katakuri not important to the plot? I would say he is just as major as Perospero and Chiffon are, so why make him an exception when he clearly is more than simply a background Charlotte sibling. Katakuri has a big antagonist role and I would have preferred more creative effort being poured into a character with such a role.
I hope you don't mind my really late reply your post, Count Mario, and if you do, I apologize in advance.
@Count:
Easy. Armament Haki and/or the crackers being that tough against explosions with a sprinkle of Oda conveniently forgetting lasers literally melt through walls. Kizaru's lasers always end up as huge explosions, so imagine a biscuit soldier tanking a mini version of that. Rayleigh knocked away Kizaru's leg with Armament Haki, so I don't see a laser being too much of a stretch with this manga. What I want to know is how Fujitora is supposed to be countered against. But I bet we will conveniently never learn that since he is bound to be an endgame ally.
If I remember his powers correctly, Fujitora could just make gravity go sideways until a df user was over water and then send them down, or just continuously make them go up into space, so yeah, he'd be Whitebread levels of broken as an antagonist lol
Women in this manga, at least the pretty ones, are always going to shine if their opponent is female or they get to incapacitate somebody in one hit. If not, the fight gets interrupted or they comedically fly off like Team Rocket. Robin grabbing Hakuba was impressive, but nothing to get excited about when we look at the big picture. The only hope Robin has of getting some action is her final Blackbeard fight and perhaps Wano Country, but the latter is a big stretch I am not banking on.that.
Yeah, after the likes of Rebecca and Smootie, I'm fully aware of that, even if I personally don't like it. I was just referring to how Robin got at least the combat equivalent of five grains of rice while Sanji, one of the SH's main fighters got absolutely nothing in the NW until this arc.
Also, my two cents on Katakuri's Observation Haki: I always thought that it worked like Shulk's visions from Xenoblade Chronicles, where he could see a brief glimpse of the current outcome of the immediate future around him and then try to do something about it. His OH seems to me like an always active thing that works in almost random bursts, instead of requiring concentration on the opponent like Enel. In page 9 of chapter 862 on JB (I would just link to page but my phone doesn't seem to want to do that 
) Katakuri is seen with a surprised expression before seeing Pudding fall, like he wasn't expecting to get a "vision." If he was checking just to make sure things went according to plan, he would be composed before seeing the future because he had to reson at the time to think it wouldn't.
Another way to look at it: imagine if there was another version of One Piece that was exactly the same as the one we're reading except that Katakuri didn't have special Observation Haki. Organ dealer guy who's name I didn't bother to look up would have shot two of Bege's men, Sanji would've dodged the priest's shot and likely kicked him away, Luffy might've broken the Mother Carmel picture on his first try, etc. Kata's Haki, at least the way I see it, lets him periodically read a few pages ahead of that manga. That's why he was surprised that Sanji was fast enough to avoid his jellybean; he had no idea how his interference would change things, only how things would've gone if he hadn't acted. For all he knew of a jellybean vs Sanji future, the bean could've bounced harmlessly off of Sanji's skin or Sanji could've spun around and eaten it like the epic chief he is.
In short, Observation Haki is the ultimate spoiler provider 
@No:
I hope you don't mind my really late reply your post, Count Mario, and if you do, I apologize in advance.
lol I don't mind at all! If anything, it's entertaining and enriching to continue having informative discussions with people instead of only quick replies.
If I remember his powers correctly, Fujitora could just make gravity go sideways until a df user was over water and then send them down, or just continuously make them go up into space, so yeah, he'd be Whitebread levels of broken as an antagonist lol
Exactly. Although I love the balance between his abilities. They seem overpowered. Well, they are overpowered lol. But they all complement each other in unique yet consistent ways. Gravity manipulation for long range combat. A cane sword for close range combat. Long-range Observation Haki to compensate for blindness. It all balances out and intuitively fits together like a puzzle.
Yeah, after the likes of Rebecca and Smootie, I'm fully aware of that, even if I personally don't like it. I was just referring to how Robin got at least the combat equivalent of five grains of rice while Sanji, one of the SH's main fighters got absolutely nothing in the NW until this arc.
I feel you lol. Although at leas Sanji gets moments even when he fails. I can't even remember anything that Robin did in Punk Hazard besides telling Franky in Chopper's body to shut up lol.
And to be fair, Sanji will be the one Straw Hat whose job actually acts as the climactic crux/solution of a One Piece arc instead of a typical "beat everybody up" or sometimes "run away" solution. Which I really like and wish would happen a bit more often if I'm being honest. Meanwhile, Robin can't even have the honor of finding the Road Poneglyph herself on Zou. It has to be given to her on a silver platter by the sheer luck that her teammates were saviors days ago.
Also, my two cents on Katakuri's Observation Haki: I always thought that it worked like Shulk's visions from Xenoblade Chronicles, where he could see a brief glimpse of the current outcome of the immediate future around him and then try to do something about it. His OH seems to me like an always active thing that works in almost random bursts, instead of requiring concentration on the opponent like Enel. In page 9 of chapter 862 on JB (I would just link to page but my phone doesn't seem to want to do that
The fact that it seems like it works in random bursts is probably due to Oda only wanting the foresight to come into play wherever he conveniently wants it to happen. He flips it on and off whimsically. rather than consistently having Katakuri be able to predict and likely stop many things. See, the more you keep fictional concepts vague in how they are executed, the more you get the get away with making them work however you want without making it consistent. See Brook's Devil Fruit for example and its very loose definition of being tied to souls.
Another way to look at it: imagine if there was another version of One Piece that was exactly the same as the one we're reading except that Katakuri didn't have special Observation Haki. Organ dealer guy who's name I didn't bother to look up would have shot two of Bege's men, Sanji would've dodged the priest's shot and likely kicked him away, Luffy might've broken the Mother Carmel picture on his first try, etc. Kata's Haki, at least the way I see it, lets him periodically read a few pages ahead of that manga. That's why he was surprised that Sanji was fast enough to avoid his jellybean; he had no idea how his interference would change things, only how things would've gone if he hadn't acted. For all he knew of a jellybean vs Sanji future, the bean could've bounced harmlessly off of Sanji's skin or Sanji could've spun around and eaten it like the epic chief he is.
Alright, now this Katakuri discussion is finally getting interesting! I like how you bring up those events. In my eyes, Jigra's hardly a big deal. Bege can get over it lol. Sanji kicking the priest would only replace how Katakuri accidentally shot the priest when Sanji dodged, if I am remembering correctly. Luffy breaking Carmel's picture earlier would get rid of of Jimbei officially severing ties with Big Mom and Brook smashing the portrait. But that can be remedied if the Big Mom Pirates, especially Smoothie, try surrounding or protecting the portrait at all.
You are right about how Katakuri doesn't seem to know how his actions seem to change the future. Although it's still a bit messy.
In short, Observation Haki is the ultimate spoiler provider
Truly a living hell.
I find the fanfic-esque character design funny in itself, it's like Oda gets sent these mails of his fans asking him to draw characters that are over the top and almost what his target audience believe to look cool at their age and decided to make a parody of it with the design of Katakuri. He's got the skull tattoos, random protruding spikes, crazy cow boy boots, the Auron from FFX covering of the mouth with a scarf, the bulky and muscly look, the angry eyes us a kids would draw on our made up characters, heck even the spiky hair is there too. But that's why it's interesting for me because it's so over the top that it serves as nostalgia for when I was a kid drawing made up characters and also that it's such a parody in of itself to the point where I find it funny when I look at him. In fact, I've had more giggles seeing Katakuri in action than I have had with characters who are meant to look whacky and funny (more than the likes of Perospero et al). That's just me, his Joseph Joestar lines are funny to me, I don't even consider them so badass or whatever, you're next line is gonna be this are you sure you want to say that as your final words, only to have Luffy say them anyway with such conviction made me crack up. So far this has been entertaining and we've yet to see Katakuri do something besides imposing superiority on all of Luffy's moves. Now that the trident has come out, which some of you have pointed out seems latched on for no apparent reason, I think we'll see some varied moves that stray away from just imitating Luffy, so we've got variation to look forward to in the coming chapters.
Now that I think about it, oda pretty much spoiled what he plans to do with BM ever since revealing her dream. For her family to turn into giants so she can look them in the eyes at the table, and it can't be done to her present family, because giantification doesn't work. Note bm is same size as normal giants, was pointed out in her flashback.
Her original family is going down as we speak so she will get elbaf family as her new family, then her dream would be completed. Most easy way to complete her dream, and only way.
@uniaka:
Now that I think about it, oda pretty much spoiled what he plans to do with BM ever since revealing her dream. For her family to turn into giants so she can look them in the eyes at the table, and it can't be done to her present family, because giantification doesn't work. Note bm is same size as normal giants, was pointed out in her flashback.
Her original family is going down as we speak so she will get elbaf family as her new family, then her dream would be completed. Most easy way to complete her dream, and only way.
That's assuming Oda intends to have Big Mom's dream resulting from a skewed interpretation of lies actually come true.
@uniaka:
Now that I think about it, oda pretty much spoiled what he plans to do with BM ever since revealing her dream. For her family to turn into giants so she can look them in the eyes at the table, and it can't be done to her present family, because giantification doesn't work. Note bm is same size as normal giants, was pointed out in her flashback.
Her original family is going down as we speak so she will get elbaf family as her new family, then her dream would be completed. Most easy way to complete her dream, and only way.
If he wanted that particular dream to come true, I'd be more inclined if Oda decided to just shrink BM to a regular sized human. Instead of having her ditch her family and get a whole new one in Elbaf just to satisfy the "BM falls at Elbaf" crowd.
I like how Katakuri's future sight has been portrayed as reading ahead of the manga. Remember when he chastised Jinbe for spoiling his powers a page in advance? It's the closest thing he has to a funny character quirk.
And I don't see how Katakuri's design apparently clashes so strongly with his siblings. I figured the reason he was paired with Smoothie and Oven was because of how many visual traits they share.
Neckwear, knee and calf emphasis, belt buckles (for Oven), and uniform stripes. Am I reaching here?
@Sibersk:
I like how Katakuri's future sight has been portrayed as reading ahead of the manga. Remember when he chastised Jinbe for spoiling his powers a page in advance? It's the closest thing he has to a funny character quirk.
And I don't see how Katakuri's design apparently clashes so strongly with his siblings. I figured the reason he was paired with Smoothie and Oven was because of how many visual traits they share.
[qimg]http://pm1.narvii.com/6495/9134fa2ad00e232c72e4f36386e5466f04c85844_hq.jpg[/qimg]
Neckwear, knee and calf emphasis, belt buckles (for Oven), and uniform stripes. Am I reaching here?
You're not reaching and man do I love Katakuri's design..
@Count:
If Oda expects us to think that Katakuri's foresight is an integral part of his moveset, he's doing a bit of a half-assed job. It doesn't come across as anything more than a minor advantage that doesn't really add anything to the battle. And I'm almost convinced he's going to ignore it if Luffy finds a way to defeat or stalemate Katakuri.
Hey, agreed man, he's blowing it, but he probably doesn't realize it.
@Jazzy:
You sure know how to bog someone down with paragraphs upon paragraphs of words when the entire baseline of your argument is subjective.
I'm too indolent and too much of a troglodyte to continue engaging in a fruitless conversation about magical fruits.
Artistic expression as a whole is meant to appeal to our subjective values of aesthetic through our sense. In One Piece's case as a manga, it does this visually for our sight the same way music appeals to our hearing or food appeals to our sense of taste and even smell. Which can of course lead to people having different preferences and favorites. It's why forums like this are made, so that our subjective opinions interact for the sake of informing and learning about other perspectives while having fun. And it's not like those perspectives, as opinionated as they might be, can't be founded upon compelling and rational evidence. Why else do you think people are able to agree about certain things in the first place? Because it's some sort of random miracle, or that there might be some underlying logic in how people are able to think the same way about certain things?
Saying "opinions are just opinions" isn't anything new and doesn't go anywhere. All that logic does is equate every opinion as being valid as another opinion, including yours in regards to mine. Which I would beg to disagree for both of our sakes and others with considering some of the ridiculous assertions that people can believe and how frequently accurate the likes of reputable theorizers can be even though they don't definitively know the future 100%. You shouldn't force people to believe in your opinion if they don't want to listen, but that doesn't mean you can't convince them or at least make decent points even if a full agreement isn't made in the end.
If you don't care to have an argument like this, then you could, you know, agree to disagree? Instead of giving a condescending dismissal of somebody's opinion about fiction because… it's an opinion about fiction in a forum about an entertaining piece of fiction? I think that was obvious from the get-go. Unless you're trying to say having forum discussions are pointless.
I don't mean to be rude, I just really hate that argument. I see it all over the place and it's seriously toxic. Not just to the people that it's used against but the people using it themselves because you could find so much better logic to criticize an opinion that's better than simply saying it's an opinion. Lots of decisions in life are made by needing to rely on opinions instead of cold, hard, unchangeable facts, but it's not like you can't make dumb decisions by thinking that every opinion is as good and pointless to discuss as the other.
Also, I don't mind edgy. I actually love a bunch of characters and designs that fit into being edgy, like Guts from Berserk, Darth Vader, or Shadow the Hedgehog design-wise. Being edgy can sort of be defined as not fitting the norms and trying to push the envelope of what might be socially ethical/acceptable. South Park as an animated comedy is an example, or even The Simpsons in its early prime decades ago. But there's different levels in the spectrum of edginess much like a lot of fictional genres/tones, and I feel like Katakuri falls into the pretentious shallow kind that doesn't have any real substance or something informative behind it besides wanting to look appealingly edgy by pulling from the imagery of edgy designs willy-nilly without real effort/creativity. At least, in my opinion.
I find the fanfic-esque character design funny in itself, it's like Oda gets sent these mails of his fans asking him to draw characters that are over the top and almost what his target audience believe to look cool at their age and decided to make a parody of it with the design of Katakuri. He's got the skull tattoos, random protruding spikes, crazy cow boy boots, the Auron from FFX covering of the mouth with a scarf, the bulky and muscly look, the angry eyes us a kids would draw on our made up characters, heck even the spiky hair is there too. But that's why it's interesting for me because it's so over the top that it serves as nostalgia for when I was a kid drawing made up characters and also that it's such a parody in of itself to the point where I find it funny when I look at him. In fact, I've had more giggles seeing Katakuri in action than I have had with characters who are meant to look whacky and funny (more than the likes of Perospero et al). That's just me, his Joseph Joestar lines are funny to me, I don't even consider them so badass or whatever, you're next line is gonna be this are you sure you want to say that as your final words, only to have Luffy say them anyway with such conviction made me crack up. So far this has been entertaining and we've yet to see Katakuri do something besides imposing superiority on all of Luffy's moves. Now that the trident has come out, which some of you have pointed out seems latched on for no apparent reason, I think we'll see some varied moves that stray away from just imitating Luffy, so we've got variation to look forward to in the coming chapters.
See, you get what I'm talking about. But my perception of Katakuri is that Oda isn't trying to make any jokes about pretentiously shallow edgy characters. He's doing it unironically, as if he expects Katakuri to look legitimately cool and creative as a major villain design. None of the context in the story is actually criticizing him or pointing out how ridiculous he might look, that it fits into some sort of culture like being a biker or gangster, or at least some sort of gag where people think he's in an intimidating monstrous savage guy like Bartolomeo in the Dressrosa coliseum only for Katakuri "nah, I like reading poetry, petting rabbits, and watching cooking competition shows as hobbies. This is just what I like to wear."
He just… is like this. The story isn't really focusing on how it's a parody of itself at all, which is my problem if Oda is actually trying to do something like that on purpose. Any laughs he gets out of me happen ironically, against the impression the story wants me to have. Especially during those Joseph Joestar moments, although those are legitimately cool and fine in their own right lol.
If he actually uses that trident in any cool ways, I will be entertained by that, at least. I hope it's not one of those weapons Oda randomly assigns to characters for them to use once for the sake of it. Like Opera getting a crossbow or Doflamingo using a gun against Law because Oda needed some sort of lead poisoning foreshadowing. Or worst of all, Pica's sword.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
snip
Did I not just refer to myself as an indolent troglodyte?
!
Lighten up, kid.
You're way out in the stratosphere far beyond us simple folk. I can't even have a proper eye to eye with you.
Here look, I'll hand you an olive branch. I'm being a dick. I like you. I think you're a pretty smart fellow. But not everything has to be a thesis for a term paper.
So then, we agree to disagree.
@Jazzy:
Did I not just refer to myself as an indolent troglodyte?
! http://zankrank.com/u/5f5a48b8-b2ea-4462-8b51-8a60db1eb812.jpg
Lighten up, kid.
You're way out in the stratosphere far beyond us simple folk. I can't even have a proper eye to eye with you.
Here look, I'll hand you an olive branch. I'm being a dick. I like you. I think you're a pretty smart fellow. But not everything has to be a thesis for a term paper.
So then, we agree to disagree.
Forgive me of not being the biggest fan of having my thoughts sort of invalidated for seeming too sophisticated when I'm only being honest and passionate, even if you phrase it in a joking "I'm just a simple lazy guy that's not on your level" way. You can tell me if I'm being too pedantic and can be more to the point if you have trouble following what I'm saying. Or if you're just not in the mood to debate lol, I can be that way too. I'm not an alien that doesn't understand common conversations about comics not usually having essay-long responses or some snobby art critic that looks down on people having "simpler" ways of speaking valuing art. Although, yes, it's easy for me to sound like one lol. Anybody can talk and analyze like I do if they have enough free time, it's really nothing special. I don't say all of this to sound impressive, I do it to get to know people and see if I'm wrong, that's all.
Okay, that's awesome. I liked talking with you and found this a bit fun. Just, you know, don't sell yourself short simply to avoid me. You made good points and you seem to be smart yourself. And I would like to talk to you again in the future if the opportunity arises, and hopefully about something we can agree on.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
snip
I'm glad we could hash this out civilly, my pretentious ribbing aside.
I'll have to be sure to mentally prepare myself the next time I go into the lion's den with you. >_>
Nothing exists; even if something exists, nothing can be known about it. Even if something can be known about it,
