The death of the author mindset with it's own forum account.
What is the false-named fruit the Five Elders are talking about?
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The thing about thematic consistency in particular in One Piece is…Oda has absolutely had clear thematic underpinnings and moral statements in the story. Several times. Often quite bluntly, ranging from "this arc is entirely about generational racism infesting a nation" to "I will use this particular tactic to specifically frame the villain as reprehensible". So it'd be noticiable if Oda in a later arc suddenly contradicted or muddled those themes or stances.
And vis a vis the whole "Luffy chosen one" debate, I think its hard to argue that for a sizeable chunk of the manga, Oda leaned in to framing Luffy as a no-name upstart from nowhere Island, who has a fruit that comes off as goofy and silly yet becomes highly effective due to his personal ingenuity, who is defined by a massive drive to simply be free and go on adventures as he pleases, and that all this formed the appeal of his character...
So now leaning into Luffy being the prophesized chosen one whom several civilizations have been waiting for generations who also has an insanely important fruit ability, whos drive is directed at accomplishing a massive checklist of specific tasks, and now leans on an inborn one-in-a-million spiritual power* in order to be competitively viable...well its not that all these things "Logically contradicts" the earlier stuff, it just feels at odds with it. Luffy being able to tango with Crocodile and Lucci due to his own ingenuity of using his silly DF ability sells a different appeal than Luffy being able to tango with Kaidou after booting up "inborn King Haki 2.0" powers while being literally unconcious.- I'd say Ace- a character ultimately defined by dedicated his life to supporting another character as well as a lot of self-loathing- being able to use King Haki as an unwashed junkyard kid heavily suggests that its an intrinsic "born-with" thing rather than an "aqcuired" thing.
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Forum user Bartholemew Bear passed away in a very moving and touching way. I, ARTEMlS, therefore carry on the Will of DArth for good unto its final fulfilment.
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This isn't sure, however. I-I refuse to believe this until it's explicitly and undeniably told by the text. Please, th-this is my final straw! M-My final lifeline… I d-don't wanna drown... Please, d-don't pull it away...!
Would it help if i gaslit you a bit about how Luffy has always been this exact amount of chosen?
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Would it help if i gaslit you a bit about how Luffy has always been this exact amount of chosen?
Sure, that'll help a lot! For maximum impact, shall I evolve back into my 10+ years older self who thinks that Cell is the absolute pinnacle of writing as well as that the Sailor Moon anime is an absolutely flawless masterpiece completely untouchable by any critique at all?
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Daz does a better job of explaining it. It's not the trope itself as much as how at odds it seems to be, thematically, from the Luffy who is my favorite Shonen character. Now Oda has done enough destiny talk from the beginning to get away with it, but I don't have to like it. I hope that some of the chosen one stuff is a red herring, but I'm not getting my hopes up about that.
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The destiny issue is at the crux of my couch potato Luffy example.
It's not destiny, if you can be another person.
Previous iterations of Poseidon didn't 'have' to be the one to help save the world.
Luffy didn't 'have' to be Joyboy. In fact, a recent chap almost blew apart the 4th wall to tell us that.
People are making the assumption that because he has it, he's 'destined' and no matter how vague 'born with it' might be, Shanks clearly stated that he lost his arm not because a child was 'destined' for greatness, but that it was instead, a bet.
Of course I can understand the frustration, but it seems very clear to me that Luffy using this ability is because:
1. We're reading a story about extraordinary individuals.
2. Luffy became extraordinary in his own right.
3. That allowed him to earn an ability.
4. Other extraordinary individuals can earn this same ability too, making a struggle between them entirely fair.
5. He's not destined for greatness, he was given a chance, same as the others.
And possibly
6. Literally anyone could do this extraordinary feat if they had enough emotional drive/conviction/ambition but only a few actually do, an aspect that runs true in real life.In fact….now that I think about it....
If anything, Oda constructed Mingo solely to be the kind of figure most people are attributing the 'destined one' trope to. From birth, to how his crew believed he'd be the Pirate King. If anyone got the ability by being born into it, it's him. Look at his childhood compared to Luffy's. He avoided every single decent influence in his life and made a direct b-line for ambition, no matter what. It's almost like Oda took that very trope being attributed to Luffy and intentionally put it at the crux of one of his most despicable characters.
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Ace feels more like the chosen one if he we're talking about tropes. And he's dead. So…
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I'm not bothered much by the King's Ambition thing, it's a common enough shonen troupe, and at the end of the day it's the same has a tall person having a better chance at being a professional basketball player. They still need to train and such but they do have an innerent advantage but that's okay, specially in a world/story that highlights the power and importance of family/crew and how their different skill sets and abilities combined is what makes them great.
My issue is with the full on prophecy mode we've reached.
Our protagonist being from this ancient clan of D., the same as the original Pirate King, possibly the D. Roger was waiting for, etc, is okay. It falls into that category of he's a contender (and since he's the protagonist we can safely bet he'll take home the championship belt by the end of the series) but he still has to work hard for it.But when you get to the point that Joy Boy knew/prophetised they would come 900 years into the future, and Oden knew strong pirates would come 20 years into the future, it starts to look like no matter what Luffy did he would always be driven to that fateful spot. Suspension of disbelief, knowing the main character will be the one to win in the end, is very different from plot armor, where no matter what happens he'll just find a way to shrugg it off and reach the top.
It's the difference betwen Luffy, like Roger, reaching the top of the world and inventing a crown for himself, and just another prince that will get the crown eventually because that's what's meant to happen. And Oda knows how to write characters that go against their supposed heritage, Sabo rejected his noble but shitty family, Ace did end up becoming a pirate but with different goals and for different reasons than his father.
That's why it's so jarring to me seeing Luffy being presented the figure everyone was waiting for, even if Oda is just waiting to throw us a curve ball on those prophecies. -
One thing people seem to ignore about Devil Fruits and their names on Wano; Wanos own people don't even know about DFs, calling them magic instead. This might as well be deliberate.
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@lix:
One thing people seem to ignore about Devil Fruits and their names on Wano; Wanos own people don't even know about DFs, calling them magic instead. This might as well be deliberate.
Which makes it more strange that Hitetsu somehow managed to get a teapot combined with a raccoon devil fruit, which is something only science is said to do.
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The gomu gomu no potentially being a key to fulfilling a prophecy is really just the straw looming over the overloaded camels back. Like you've stomached all the other things, grumbled about it, and then you get a hint that the one pure and silly thing remaining about not-chosen Luffy is actually a super important WG treasure / plot macguffin and the whole thing starts to crumble all over again.
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I've definitely said it before, but even though Luffy is special for a whole bunch of reasons (the D, the King's Haki, Shanks's favour, Roger's hat, apparently the fruit too, uncanny good luck, Whoop Slap talking about destiny etc etc), he's almost definitely not the only person who could take the One Piece.
It's been strongly suggested that whatever the One Piece is, it has a specific intended use that can only be fulfilled by the right person (or right kind of person) at the right time. While Luffy definitely is that, the two conditions make it far from exclusive. Roger was the right person at the wrong time. Blackbeard will almost certainly be the wrong person at the right time. Who knows how many other people and times have failed to line up since the end of the Void Century, or how many more there will be if Luffy misses his shot.
There's a lot we still don't know about the treasure and its use. Can it not be used at all if the person or time is wrong, or will the results just be different? That detail may end up being make or break for a lot of the people talking tropes here, but One Piece has been so good to me for so long that I'm not inclined to assume the worst of it.
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Fate's always been a big theme of One Piece, though it's never been clear how much of it is at play. Blackbeard's crew seem to almost use it like plot armor at times.
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Kaido's fruit is huge candidate indeed.
It could finally show the last rage show from the beast king himself, when the fruit's name is revealed
But i have no clue on what it should be. -
FolhaS,
That's an extraordinary point about the, "It'll happen X years in the future!"
That's the 2nd closest the series has come to a prophecy regarding Luffy but even that's tenable.
Up until a few weeks ago I don't know if it was as strong a point as it is now, but thanks to King's comment about Kaido being Joyboy (from his perspective) I think the point is literally anyone on the stage since Marineford, can be Joyboy.
We readers have one unfortunate (dis)advantage over everyone in that world, we know Luffy is the main character. We know he'll always come out on top so we know he will succeed but from the perspective of a bystander in that world, Luffy is just another force to be reckoned with as much as those in the ring for the Pirate King title.
If I'm being honest? Any kind of prophecy in a story bugs me. I'll accept this one only because it's not pointing out Luffy in particular. At this point, probably only Imu knows that the stars are aligning for him.
But what the closest the series has come to straight-up making Luffy part of a prophecy? Sharley. Luckily Oda turned that on its head by making him a destructor rather than saviour but…we all know how that will turn out.
In short, yeah, the series has come close to chosen one but for an author who doesn't give a shit about foreign taste/tropes (he's an unapologetic and unashamed fan of 'The Prequels') I think he's done a damn fine job of avoiding a blatant chosen one story to this point. That may change of course.
Very good point Fol, thank you.
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I dunno, i never felt the Kaido comment implied that anyone could become joy boy.
It seemed more like guess you aren't the one either.
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I think the idea that King was hoping Kaido would be Joyboy is the interesting part. As a Lunarian, we expect him to know more than we do about "things" and such an expectation of him is fascinating. Again though, the issue of how much we readers know makes things possibly less interesting. We know the Sea Kings were anticipating another sovereign and unless there's another ancient weapon born around that time then we know it's not Kaido and never could have been. I'm hoping there's a misdirect.
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Seeing as how Sengoku and Onimaru have human fruits in the form of a Buddha and monk, it makes me wonder if Chopper’s fruit is of a certain model, and for what reasons Chopper slapping Queen in front of everyone was done for.
But nah, maybe it is too far-fetched.
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The thought of it being Chopper is exciting, but I don't think it is. I hope we do end up seeing more Hito Hito no mi variants in the future.
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Seeing as how Sengoku and Onimaru have human fruits in the form of a Buddha and monk, it makes me wonder if Chopper’s fruit is of a certain model, and for what reasons Chopper slapping Queen in front of everyone was done for.
But nah, maybe it is too far-fetched.
Chopper would be more interesting to have an important secret fruit than Luffy, IMO. The little guy needs an upgrade anyway. There's also far more leeway in giving Chopper a different yet same power than Luffy. I don't think it's possible to turn rubber into something else, but any mythical humanoid could make a hito hito fruit. Chopper's human form is also very far from normal human.
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I dunno, i never felt the Kaido comment implied that anyone could become joy boy.
It seemed more like guess you aren't the one either.
Interesting! How/Why so?
Because it hit me exactly as andre brought forward:
As a Lunarian, we expect him to know more than we do about "things" and such an expectation of him is fascinating.
King followed him b/c he felt Kaido was Joyboy and in being defeated, yes, you're right, that scene is meant to say, "Guess you couldn't be Joyboy either." but to me, that's indicative that Joyboy isn't predetermined, only that those who will carry Joyboy's are in this age and they're accomplishing feat after feat to reach the top.
I suppose a good deal of whether this can be palatable or not comes down to whether or not it's a literal rebirth. Like, if Luffy is literally Joyboy's soul or not. But I still maintain that couch potato is viable: Luffy is Luffy because of everyone he's met.
There is….one other inside fact that I stumbled on that I'm keeping close to my chest and its revelation could drive people already upset over this into a fury. Even at that reveal I'd maintain Luffy's life is due to his own choices but after that if it's revealed that it's straight up rebirth...yeah even I'd have to admit it's a bit much ^o^ However, the trope doesn't bother me to begin because I always go back to the root of the logic: We're reading a story about extraordinary people. For better or worse, I've never minded a trope (or a series) just because it was unpopular. But yeah...if Oda makes a few more choices with a literal rebirth reveal...yikes.
What worries me most about literal rebirth is Makino's baby. If that turns out to be a reborn Ace I swear to God....^o^
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The thought of it being Chopper is exciting, but I don't think it is. I hope we do end up seeing more Hito Hito no mi variants in the future.
I can understand that. I guess it could make it a little more suspect after Usopp said “I don’t think the Blackbeard Pirates would want your human-human fruit” though.
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Chopper would be more interesting to have an important secret fruit than Luffy, IMO. The little guy needs an upgrade anyway. There's also far more leeway in giving Chopper a different yet same power than Luffy. I don't think it's possible to turn rubber into something else, but any mythical humanoid could make a hito hito fruit. Chopper's human form is also very far from normal human.
Even before Chopper used the rumble ball to give himself more forms, it does seem it little off to give his initial forms as being part of a “human” and nothing more, as opposed to a name alluding to some “evolved” state of existence. Makes me wonder if Chopper’s fruit is the only human fruit without a model name too.
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Even before Chopper used the rumble ball to give himself more forums, it does seem it little off to give his initial forms as being part of a “human” and nothing more, as opposed to a name alluding to some “evolved” state of existence. Makes me wonder if Chopper’s fruit is the only human fruit without a model name too.
I remember people theorizing Chopper could be of model sasquatch or big foot when we learned Sengoku was also a human-fruit user.
Maybe there's some furry eastern deity/spirit/monster that could have some interesting powers?
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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Hito Hito no Mi, Model: Joy Boy :ninja:
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To be honest i'm kind of starting to get over the whole "luffy has chosen one haki" given how…luffy/zoro struggled hard and pissed blood just to get it? Like even through we have people like ace and yamato showing it off at an extremely young age, it feels open enough to interpret it as "you can be born with it, but also maybe if you work hard enough and have the right temperament for it, you can achieve it? rayleigh doesn't know about biology and genetics totally not headcanon
The bigger issue really is luffy walking around with innocuous symbols that are seemingly extremely important (the strawhat and the rubber fruit). It really does put a damper with oda's initial statements that he chose the rubber fruit for luffy because it would be a pretty goofy one, and luffy developing and calling it his own makes it feel like his own accomplishment. But if someone important happened to have it back then, then doesn't this just…put down all the stuff that luffy went through? Or it being an overly hamfisted way of telling the audience "hey luffy is tots the chosen one"? We as the audience already know that luffy is going to be PK, but it being told in such a manner is pretty...weird. I'm not even sure 9 year old boys are that daft about it...and at the end, what's the whole point of going about showing all these hints?
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Interesting! How/Why so?
Because it hit me exactly as andre brought forward:
King followed him b/c he felt Kaido was Joyboy and in being defeated, yes, you're right, that scene is meant to say, "Guess you couldn't be Joyboy either." but to me, that's indicative that Joyboy isn't predetermined, only that those who will carry Joyboy's are in this age and they're accomplishing feat after feat to reach the top.
I suppose a good deal of whether this can be palatable or not comes down to whether or not it's a literal rebirth. Like, if Luffy is literally Joyboy's soul or not. But I still maintain that couch potato is viable: Luffy is Luffy because of everyone he's met.
There is….one other inside fact that I stumbled on that I'm keeping close to my chest and its revelation could drive people already upset over this into a fury. Even at that reveal I'd maintain Luffy's life is due to his own choices but after that if it's revealed that it's straight up rebirth...yeah even I'd have to admit it's a bit much ^o^ However, the trope doesn't bother me to begin because I always go back to the root of the logic: We're reading a story about extraordinary people. For better or worse, I've never minded a trope (or a series) just because it was unpopular. But yeah...if Oda makes a few more choices with a literal rebirth reveal...yikes.
What worries me most about literal rebirth is Makino's baby. If that turns out to be a reborn Ace I swear to God....^o^
If Shanks babymama gives birth to a baby who goes -hey wiggedy wiggedy Poochies in the house then we truly live in the darkest timeline. But yeah for me i guess it comes down to how we as readers now know that the requierments for the savior are not only super specific but also time stamped so that even if you were almost all the way there you literally cannot progress unless you were born on the second tuesday of the chosen time. But what is funny is that i don't even neccesarily object to the concept of a chosen one story, i mean it feels weird to say that after whining oh so much, but if Oda wants to play a prophecy story straight then that in itself is not a problem. What bothers me is the, i dunno false representation? Where i was a decade plus into the story before it suddenly goes oh yeah this isn't a freedom story it is a prophecy scripture. If this was a 5 year story i probably wouldn't have raise an eyebrow on it, but now it hits different.
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Did anyone take the Hana Hana no Mi into consideration? That was my first thought when this whole thing started.
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Did anyone take the Hana Hana no Mi into consideration? That was my first thought when this whole thing started.
I remember someone saying it was the hana hana no mi when this matter came up first. It was something along the lines of the fruit generatic human body parts and not actual plants iirc. And actually that's something that baffled people way back in the day but people came to accept it with the explenation we've been given. Personally I say, it's another fair guess.
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Did anyone take the Hana Hana no Mi into consideration? That was my first thought when this whole thing started.
Definitely would be a reasonable choice to consider more since the elders were just talking about Robin.
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I think the idea that King was hoping Kaido would be Joyboy is the interesting part. As a Lunarian, we expect him to know more than we do about "things" and such an expectation of him is fascinating. Again though, the issue of how much we readers know makes things possibly less interesting. We know the Sea Kings were anticipating another sovereign and unless there's another ancient weapon born around that time then we know it's not Kaido and never could have been. I'm hoping there's a misdirect.
Makes me wonder if Kaido figured he’d be more likely to be Joy Boy since Luffy was losing to him previously.
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I remember people theorizing Chopper could be of model sasquatch or big foot when we learned Sengoku was also a human-fruit user.
Maybe there's some furry eastern deity/spirit/monster that could have some interesting powers?
Late reply, but I always liked the theory that Chopper had the Ancient version of the Hito Hito (the Missing Link).
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Last time we saw the elders they were talking about a devil fruit that hadn’t awakened in centuries and in this chapter CP0 gets an order directly from the elders to take out Luffy, I don’t believe this is a coincidence
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It does really seem like it's going to be the gum gum fruit but for me it's still slightly too early to call it.
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Tama: army of
slavesfriends, time to attack marijois, gorosei found out about my power. -
I wonder if the Elders also know about that tree, and if they deem it to be a unique case:
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I wonder if the Elders also know about that tree, and if they deem it to be a unique case:
Isn't that just the pilot?
#Vergoshotfirst #Doflaisapunk
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Isn't that just the pilot?
It was mentioned at least twice, and can't find any more recent references to it, but it still makes me wonder how involved trees are to devil fruits.
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Gaimon isn't exactly the most trustworthy source
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Gaimon isn't exactly the most trustworthy source
So trees have nothing to do with devil fruits at all then?
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So trees have nothing to do with devil fruits at all then?
All I'm saying is that the concept of one specific tree where each Devil Fruit originally came from respectively doesn't hold much traction when it wasn't touched upon within over 1,000 chapters and when the info came from a guy who was stuck inside a treasure chest for the last 20 years in the weakest Blue that doesn't know much about Devil Fruits in the first place, during what could reasonably be called the most filler canon arc that lasted one chapter
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He just says "Gomu Gomu no Mi" in the original, no mention of a tree, it's just a translation quirk.
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Depends on how they came to existence.
Are they natural or were they artificially made.When they naturally came to existence, then they have to grow somewhere, like the Smiles.
The idea could be that there was/is one tree where all the fruits originally came from, before they were scattered all over the world… maybe on Laugh Tale or God Valley or any other weird place...The other idea would be that the people of the Great Kingdom created them and chose fruits as carrier for the power.
So, they were able to take the power... wherever that came from and could put it in any fruit... -
All I'm saying is that the concept of one specific tree where each Devil Fruit originally came from respectively doesn't hold much traction when it wasn't touched upon within over 1,000 chapters and when the info came from a guy who was stuck inside a treasure chest for the last 20 years in the weakest Blue that doesn't know much about Devil Fruits in the first place, during what could reasonably be called the most filler canon arc that lasted one chapter
Thing is is that Koby was translated as having mentioned it too. So is Romance Dawn filler then? lol
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Depends on how they came to existence.
Are they natural or were they artificially made.When they naturally came to existence, then they have to grow somewhere, like the Smiles.
The idea could be that there was/is one tree where all the fruits originally came from, before they were scattered all over the world… maybe on Laugh Tale or God Valley or any other weird place...The other idea would be that the people of the Great Kingdom created them and chose fruits as carrier for the power.
So, they were able to take the power... wherever that came from and could put it in any fruit...Yeah, one translation mentions trees, in addition to Shanks speculating they came from the sea devil. Not even sure if both would be connected or not today or if Shanks now things Luffy has sea devil powers in him now.
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Thing is is that Koby was translated as having mentioned it too. So is Romance Dawn filler then? lol
Weak attempt to purposefully misconstrue my words. But as Lemony said there is no mention of a tree in the original Japanese, neither in the scene with Gaimon nor with Koby. And even if there were, Koby also isn't exactly the most knowledgable source out there.
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Weak attempt to purposefully misconstrue my words. But as Lemony said there is no mention of a tree in the original Japanese, neither in the scene with Gaimon nor with Koby. And even if there were, Koby also isn't exactly the most knowledgable source out there.
Not wanting to misconstrue anything. Just wanting to be clear of the info that has been made apparent about Devil fruits and the implication of what the elders might be touching on and wanting. If there’s none, then I’ll accept it, leave it at that, and move on.
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Not wanting to misconstrue anything. Just wanting to be clear of the info that has been made apparent about Devil fruits and the implication of what the elders might be touching on and wanting. If there’s none, then I’ll accept it, leave it at that, and move on.
Alright, then let me just say that the conclusion "So is Romance Dawn filler then? lol" is a logical fallacy
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Alright, then let me just say that the conclusion "So is Romance Dawn filler then? lol" is a logical fallacy
Ok? Whatever you want to think. lol
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Please Oda, don't make it the Gomu Gomu
I'm hoping it's Kaido's/Momo's now.
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And what if the Elders want Luffy dead because:
With a 1.5 billion bounty and a large "criminal" record he has become a major threat to them, and…
The possibility that he might defeat Kaido and thus completely shake up the world's balance is a thought that terrifies them so much Luffy must be eliminated quickly. Not to mention how the Strawhats are every day getting closer to their goal: Laugh Tale.
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If it’s Luffy’s fruit, you gotta wonder what shanks knew?.
Maybe Shanks got to Laugh tell and read the history and kept quiet.
He was probably in the East Blue Sea looking for the chosen one who he thought would be Roger’s son.He probably believes in fate and was waiting for fate to somehow intervene and help him find Roger’s son to feed him the fruit and Fate indeed intervened but not in the way he thought but clearing his mission nonetheless and he understood it.
