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    Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...

    Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

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    • Megadoomer
      Megadoomer
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      Megadoomer
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      At this point, I'd honestly be surprised if Yamato didn't join; I've seen some people bring up alternatives, but none of them have really made sense for me.

      • stay in Wano as the shogun/guardian deity? Yamato's current goal is to get out of Wano as quickly as possible, and the only person pushing for Yamato to act as the shogun or guardian of Wano is Kaidou.

      • stay in Wano as Momo's bodyguard? Momo already has the Nine Red Scabbards, Shinobu, various Kozuki loyalists, and in all likelihood he'll also have Tama and the Gifters to protect him, on top of him being physically older and having a better understanding of his DF. Not sure if the people who say this think that all of the Scabbards are going to die - if that's the case, I'm not sure if those people have read One Piece.

      • form a crew with ex-Beast Pirates and join the Grand Fleet? Yamato's dislike of the Beast Pirates seems pretty clear, and it's getting exhausting to see the Grand Fleet get used as a dumping ground for potential crewmates because the commenter doesn't like them or want them to join. (Ex. "Despite a decade of build-up, Jinbei's going to join the Grand Fleet with his former crew instead of becoming an actual Straw Hat Pirate!" "Despite being among the youngest and least experienced of the Minks, Carrot's going to form the New Nox Pirates and they'll join the Grand Fleet!")

      • setting out to sea solo? Luffy only survived that by pure luck in the East Blue, and this is the New World. Yamato's never even left Wano, as far as we know, and hasn't left Onigashima since the age of eight. Yamato's sailing knowledge, navigational skills, etc. are likely non-existent.

      • dying? I don't even know why people would seriously consider this an option, but it gets brought up from time to time, at least on Reddit.

      I'd like to see Carrot join the crew as well (she seems like she'd be a fun addition, she has some build-up towards the lookout position (which hasn't been filled on the Straw Hat crew), she's already gotten parallels with how Nekomamushi and Inuarashi joined Whitebeard and Roger, and it would be bizarrely downbeat and mean-spirited for Oda to end off her plotline with Carrot being told that she's worthless garbage and having the story do nothing to refute this), but unless she starts getting focus, I'm guessing that it won't happen. (at the very least, it's hard for me to be optimistic when her storyline that had been built up since WCI and followed through with seems to have ended with Carrot losing off-screen, and Perospero getting beaten by someone with no connection to the events at WCI while Carrot contributes absolutely nothing)

      One Piece: Grand Line Bout - a fighting game made by fans, for fans!

      K. Kira XXIII BobLoblaw 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • electricmastro
        electricmastro @Roosta
        @Roosta last edited by
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        @Roosta:

        These kind of quotes are why the log keeper role makes the most sense to me. Logs have been around since before chapter 50, and I could imagine Oda thinking something like "The one who wrote Roger's log will be one of the ones who wrote the true history, and this is how Luffy will find his log keeper" early on in the writing of the manga, and the time it's taken to get to Wano has just ballooned as the world grew. The rest of the details of Oden and Yamato could have been fleshed out as their appearance got closer, which would explain why they feel like last minute or self-insert characters to some.

        I'm still not sure about that. While Yamato has been interested in Oden's logbook, I don't actually get the sense she's actually interested in writing and logging info in general, as well as not displaying skills in engaging in anything like that either. Early arcs usually display or at least hint at an interest and skills in a potential recruit's profession, because even Whiskey Peak displayed Robin's knack at acquiring hard to get methods for reaching destinations and also passing on important info like Crocodile's identity, in addition to an interest in translating poneglyphs at Alabasta.

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          Roosta @electricmastro
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          @electricmastro:

          I'm still not sure about that. While Yamato has been interested in Oden's logbook, I don't actually get the sense she's actually interested in writing and logging info in general, as well as not displaying skills in engaging in anything like that either. Early arcs usually display or at least hint at an interest and skills in a potential recruit's profession, because even Whiskey Peak displayed Robin's knack at acquiring hard to get methods for reaching destinations and also passing on important info like Crocodile's identity, in addition to an interest in translating poneglyphs at Alabasta.

          So is Robin's role intel gatherer or Poneglyph reader? If you want to give multiple roles, then you can tack on combatant for Yamato as well, as we've seen plenty of that. Poneglyph reading didn't appear until nearly 100 chapters after Robin's introduction, and the actual need for Poneglyph reading didn't appear for more than 500 chapters after that. That gives Yamato 50 more chapters to show an interest in writing and still beat Robin's time.

          Also, while Yamato hasn't specifically shown the desire to write, he has told his own story to Luffy and the story of meeting Ace and learning about Luffy to Momonosuke and Shinobu. You could argue this shows Yamato's interest in storytelling. Oda has also gone out of his way in recent chapters to show extra reaction panels of Yamato witnessing things on the roof, to the point that I've seen people complain about wasted panel space. This could be Oda emphasizing the importance of Yamato witnessing the events that will soon be legendary.

          electricmastro 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Big Emperor
            Big Emperor
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            Not going to engage in discussion at present but since the poll is binary in regards to Yamato, just going to state my opinions here (again) for posterity.


            -Voting NO in the poll.
            -I believe Carrot will join and that Yamato will not because it seems the most narratively logical to me. I admittedly want Carrot to join so infer any biases from that that you will.
            -I do like Yamato and would like for her to join the crew in addition to Carrot, although I don't see that as likely or as good for the story.
            -I actually sort of expect Yamato to join and Carrot to not but that's just because I'm a pessimist.


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            • K. Kira XXIII
              K. Kira XXIII @Megadoomer
              @Megadoomer last edited by
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              @Megadoomer:

              • form a crew with ex-Beast Pirates and join the Grand Fleet? Yamato's dislike of the Beast Pirates seems pretty clear, and it's getting exhausting to see the Grand Fleet get used as a dumping ground for potential crewmates because the commenter doesn't like them or want them to join. (Ex. "Despite a decade of build-up, Jinbei's going to join the Grand Fleet with his former crew instead of becoming an actual Straw Hat Pirate!" "Despite being among the youngest and least experienced of the Minks, Carrot's going to form the New Nox Pirates and they'll join the Grand Fleet!")

              There are more chances for characters to join the grand fleet than the Straw Hats. There's at least 2000+ more members to join. I like how offering a possibility to join the grand fleet = hate character, doesn't want them. It is brought back again and again. I feel it is an honor to join the fleet. People need to stop thinking this is some personal crusade against insert character just because we don't agree on the outcome. Jimbe was officially invited to join the crew even before the fleet existed, so obviously those comments are better to be ignored.

              However, in terms of Carrot, she is more likely to be part of the fleet, and because she did adventure with the SH, she may even receive her own vivre card, instead of being part of the "Samurai/Mink/Ninja Pirate" group. I see her current character as an explorer. Travels alone, or becomes Neko's right hand. Experience means nothing when you have Luffy as a captain and protagonist. One Piece isn't that serious, if Carrot wants to sail out to sea and explore the world. She will do it. If she asks friends to go with her, some of them will say yes. If after details of the Dawn, poneglyphs, the Minks and everyone there get a new objective supporting Luffy, and if Carrot offers herself to be part of a crew affiliated with the fleet to honor Pedro, his crusade with the Nox pirates and Carrot has to live up to Pedro's shoes, gain responsibility, etc. Like damn, Barto calls his grandma to handle hazards at sea. It ain't that serious.

              The Nox pirates would have been part of the fleet under Pedro. Isn't Carrot (and Pekoms) the best people to inherit Pedro's position as an ally to the SH because of the events of WCI.

              –-

              Questions for anybody:

              • Do you think that there will be more members to the fleet?
              • Do you think that the people of Wano/Zou will form a pirate crew to join the fleet?

              Hidden:

              Originally Posted by Tamiel

              Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

              Hidden:

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              • R
                Roosta @K. Kira XXIII
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                @K.:

                • Do you think that there will be more members to the fleet?
                • Do you think that the people of Wano/Zou will form a pirate crew to join the fleet?

                -The language here makes me think the Grand Fleet isn't going to change:

                -I do think the people of Wano/Zou will form their own army, as one of Yamato's stated goals was to unleash the force of the samurai onto the world. However, I think this will be an army of Wano which is loyal to Momonosuke, not one which follows Luffy.

                K. Kira XXIII 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • K. Kira XXIII
                  K. Kira XXIII @Roosta
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                  @Roosta:

                  -The language here makes me think the Grand Fleet isn't going to change:
                  [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/LhZq3XI.png[/qimg]
                  -I do think the people of Wano/Zou will form their own army, as one of Yamato's stated goals was to unleash the force of the samurai onto the world. However, I think this will be an army of Wano which is loyal to Momonosuke, not one which follows Luffy.

                  How do you reconcile the fact that the fleet are literally followers of Usopp and one of Usopp biggest lies is that he has 8000 followers. The current fleet has 5600.

                  Do you not believe in Usopp's lies?

                  The same way the Tonttatas have an army but there is also a pirate crew in the fleet. The people of Wano will have their army. But the focus is if any of them will switch their main loyalty to Luffy like the fleet captains did.

                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                  @Zik:

                  As far as siblings go, there's nothing saying Yamato didn't form that bond with a human when he was young and traded sake cups to become siblings. Still a bit more to be revealed about his past. Could still work in to everything Kaido has said and Yamato's protests. The death of a sibling being a part of his tragic past would only closer parallel his story with Luffy's.

                  Hmm could be, although with the mention Kaido did of everyone that gets close to Yamato dies. I would expect something as important as a sibling to be mentioned. At least more than the random soldier that gave them food.

                  Hidden:

                  Originally Posted by Tamiel

                  Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

                  Hidden:

                  BellisarioFaith Zik 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • goty
                    goty @Roosta
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                    @Roosta:

                    I'm new to this, but I'm curious about the history. People often mention how much Oda likes to surprise us, but in the end a lot of the broad strokes are pretty obvious. Has there ever been a time where the community as a whole thought something was going to happen only for Oda to go another way? For example, did most people think Vivi would join the crew permanently, or that the Merry would be the ship for the whole story, or that Ace would survive Marineford? My experience watching and reading for the past year is that Oda likes to surprise by dropping new information on top of what he's already built, rather than taking a big expectation and going a different way.

                    I think the best example of a time when Oda completely subverted expectations was Ace's death. I remember pretty much no one expected the rescue mission to fail, and a lot of people were still waiting for Ivankov to heal him next chapter or another cop out, given Oda''s track record handling death (even though that would be narratively ridiculous).

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                    • BobLoblaw
                      BobLoblaw @Megadoomer
                      @Megadoomer last edited by
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                      @Megadoomer:

                      At this point, I'd honestly be surprised if Yamato didn't join; I've seen some people bring up alternatives, but none of them have really made sense for me.

                      • stay in Wano as the shogun/guardian deity? Yamato's current goal is to get out of Wano as quickly as possible, and the only person pushing for Yamato to act as the shogun or guardian of Wano is Kaidou.

                      • stay in Wano as Momo's bodyguard? Momo already has the Nine Red Scabbards, Shinobu, various Kozuki loyalists, and in all likelihood he'll also have Tama and the Gifters to protect him, on top of him being physically older and having a better understanding of his DF. Not sure if the people who say this think that all of the Scabbards are going to die - if that's the case, I'm not sure if those people have read One Piece.

                      • form a crew with ex-Beast Pirates and join the Grand Fleet? Yamato's dislike of the Beast Pirates seems pretty clear, and it's getting exhausting to see the Grand Fleet get used as a dumping ground for potential crewmates because the commenter doesn't like them or want them to join. (Ex. "Despite a decade of build-up, Jinbei's going to join the Grand Fleet with his former crew instead of becoming an actual Straw Hat Pirate!" "Despite being among the youngest and least experienced of the Minks, Carrot's going to form the New Nox Pirates and they'll join the Grand Fleet!")

                      • setting out to sea solo? Luffy only survived that by pure luck in the East Blue, and this is the New World. Yamato's never even left Wano, as far as we know, and hasn't left Onigashima since the age of eight. Yamato's sailing knowledge, navigational skills, etc. are likely non-existent.

                      • dying? I don't even know why people would seriously consider this an option, but it gets brought up from time to time, at least on Reddit.

                      I'd like to see Carrot join the crew as well (she seems like she'd be a fun addition, she has some build-up towards the lookout position (which hasn't been filled on the Straw Hat crew), she's already gotten parallels with how Nekomamushi and Inuarashi joined Whitebeard and Roger, and it would be bizarrely downbeat and mean-spirited for Oda to end off her plotline with Carrot being told that she's worthless garbage and having the story do nothing to refute this), but unless she starts getting focus, I'm guessing that it won't happen. (at the very least, it's hard for me to be optimistic when her storyline that had been built up since WCI and followed through with seems to have ended with Carrot losing off-screen, and Perospero getting beaten by someone with no connection to the events at WCI while Carrot contributes absolutely nothing)

                      Putting Carrot aside, I have said that Yamato's fate would likely be tied to Wano (not Onigashima) since his/her intro. This was before the DF was revealed and before the WG recently claimed they wanted Wano for themselves. There are several reasons why I don't believe that Yamato was built for anything beyond the Wano arc, but I won't go over those all now. Here's a smaller, meta one related to his DF.

                      The w****olf as god is above all worshipped under the name of Ooguchi no Magami, 大口真神, the "Large-Mouthed Pure God" (magami まかみ/真神 [Kanji: 'true-god'] is also an archaic version of ōkami, 'wolf'); 大口, ōguchi means 'big mouth'). Once he was a very popular god and still today he is worshipped at some shrines, like Mitsumine, Ryogami Shrine and Mitake. There, the komainu - the shrine guardians - have the form of a wolf (see images below)…

                      Ancient historic accounts from Japan report this mythical story how the wolf deity, a white wolf (白狼, shirōkami), in times of need suddenly appeared to Yamato Takeru, son of Emperor Keikko (around AD100). Takaru got lost on a road near Mitakesan (御嶽山) when a local demon shapeshifted into a white deer (白鹿) and obstructed the road. The white wolf showed him the way and let his army on the right path, "and Takeru commanded the white wolf to stay in Mitakesan as a true god, in order to slay any local demons."

                      Edit: Source. I forgot who around her originally posted it.

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                      • DarthAsthma
                        DarthAsthma @BobLoblaw
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                        @BobLoblaw:

                        Robin being stronger than both Zoro and Sanji was debatable and I wasn't around here back then making that argument. And I made no mention of bounties because the only thing worth less than "powerscalers" are those that think bounties actually mean much. Ask Jack or Kid or anyone else with inflated bounties.

                        I'm not sure how you can flip any perceptions when we've seen Zoro tank one combined yonko attack and then essentially have every bone in his body broken and need some sort of miracle drug just to move. If it was Yamato, he/she would've shrugged it off and went on the attack. That's my point. Yamato having mastered CoC haki, having a strong DF, and going toe to toe with Kaido for who knows how long vs Zoro having his bones broken in one attack and showing a split second of CoC clearly shows that Yamato is stronger than Luffy's always strongest crew mate.

                        On a side note, you need to calm down. This is supposed to be a place for civil discussions.

                        How are you not sure about how Oda would flip perception he literally did it for Robin and Jinbe and shut the powerscalers up. Even beyond that as mentioned it literally is worthless and does not matter. Did Apoo KOing luffy flip perception to anyone with a brain? Literally the only people that went Apoo = Kaido tier after that are the some of the worst part of the community with the biggest brain rot.

                        Don't take it as me being not calm it's just to an extend how I tend to write about very dumb people. I just ain't about talking around certain types of foolery.

                        theackwardstation Galleon Panthera 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • electricmastro
                          electricmastro @Roosta
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                          @Roosta:

                          So is Robin's role intel gatherer or Poneglyph reader?

                          Well, archeologist can basically fall into both, no? lol

                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                          @Devil:

                          6. She read Oden’s journal. She knows too much especially about One Piece

                          Seeing as how she has talked about the Dawn of the World and Momo being a relevant figure to it, I suspect that in any case a main goal she'll have will have something to do with the Dawn going forward. Really though, it ultimately might not be too different from Robin since she also knows important info and will be a big reason why Luffy and the others will discover more important info at Laugh Tale. With the Dawn of the World concept itself having been mentioned in the last 6 years and Momo being relevant to it, I suppose it would be about time that the Straw Hats have a reason to focus in on it more, whatever it may be.

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                          • Zik
                            Zik @BobLoblaw
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                            @BobLoblaw:

                            Well, let's just say this. No one has ever joined the crew and were clearly stronger than both Zoro and Sanji. That dynamic hasn't changed in all this time. On FI, Jinbe fought on par with Sanji. On Onigashima, Jinbe fought a Flying Six member and Sanji is fighting a commander, which shows yet again that Zoro and Sanji are stronger than the newest member. Yamato would clearly break that dynamic. You say that Oda doesn't care, but he's certainly not shown it with the crew up to this point. It's always been Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, everyone else

                            This statement and then you're reasoning for why you think it's true just seems like more power scaling nonsense.

                            Since when are character's strength let alone them at their strongest gauged by fighting weaker opponents? What exactly is fighting on par with each other? Yamato stalled Kaido for some chapters. Sanji and Zoro are going to defeat Kaido's #1 and #2 top officers. The reasoning to downplay Jimbe just reads as nonsensical especially when we know who he has fought in the past.
                            @BobLoblaw:

                            And I made no mention of bounties because the only thing worth less than "powerscalers" are those that think bounties actually mean much. Ask Jack or Kid or anyone else with inflated bounties.

                            Bounties aren't inflated and they aren't power levels. They're the measure of a characters threat level. That includes things like their strength, criminal acts, etc.

                            It's fans fault and especially the power scalers that treat it as anything else.

                            Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                            Last.fm

                            BobLoblaw 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • theackwardstation
                              theackwardstation @DarthAsthma
                              @DarthAsthma last edited by
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                              @DarthAsthma:

                              How are you not sure about how Oda would flip perception he literally did it for Robin and Jinbe and shut the powerscalers up. Even beyond that as mentioned it literally is worthless and does not matter. Did Apoo KOing luffy flip perception to anyone with a brain? Literally the only people that went Apoo = Kaido tier after that are the some of the worst part of the community with the biggest brain rot.

                              I don't care too much about the strength argument either, but it's easy to see why Yamato looks like he'll be a top SH.

                              In regards to Robin and Jimbe, there was a lot room for growth to surpass them in the future regardless of their rank at the time of joining (were they stronger than Sanji and Zoro at the time though? not necessarily) because they were never among the highest tier of power level. Jimbe was a Shichibukai, which is obviously impressive, but at the time of his recruitment we were already comfortable with the idea that Yonkou, Admirals and even Commander are stronger than the average Shichibukai.

                              On the other hand, Yamato was giving a good fight to Kaido, who's said to be the strongest in the world – and if he's not, it should be close anyway. There may be some room for ambiguity in regards to Yamato's exact power level because we can't measure it scientifically, but it was really impressive. Arguably, Yamato is at the level of an Admiral, which is more or less what some of us expect to be the level of Sanji and Zoro by the end of the series, so there's not much room for them to surpass Yamato in the long run because he's already around their ceiling, unless things start to escalate like Dragon Ball in the final saga, or unless Oda suddenly pretends that Yamato is not as strong as it looked before.

                              Yamato is very much like Oden in this sense.

                              DarthAsthma 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • BellisarioFaith
                                BellisarioFaith
                                Warlord Mod
                                @K. Kira XXIII
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                                Well. A new thread, huh. Only took 15 months to fill up the previous one. 😆 Let's see how things have changed from then (in which I voted "Other" in the poll): @BellisarioFaith:

                                Well, my "other" is partially "none of the above", in that, while I do think we're gonna get one more (hence not voting for "Jimbei's the last one"), I'm seriously doubtful that it'll be any of the available choices on the poll based on everything we've seen so far. None of them feel right, certainly not the way Jimbei did. I could be quite wrong about that, and I'm sure part of that is my own bias because, by the time I started reading the series, Fishman Island was already complete and Jimbei had promised to join eventually, so him being official at some point has been a given to me for the whole time I've been reading weekly. But that doesn't change the fact that none of them have made the same impression and given the same vibes he did.

                                The one possible exception there is Yamato, whom we've just met and hasn't had the chance to leave much of any impression at all, but I'm not bandwagoning on him at this point. I suppose I could have waited a few months before casting my vote to see if he becomes more convincing and appealing as a possible Straw Hat, or if the hype for him dies out completely. Maybe after he's been around longer, I'll end up wishing I'd voted for him and feel much more optimistic about his chances. But eh. I'm friggen lazy and wanted to get my vote-explaining post out of the way before things start devolving in here, and Yamato, though he leaves me with a stronger first impression than several of the other options, seems perfectly viable as just an arc ally as well. I would rather just place my bets now and admit I was wrong later.

                                For whom I think it will be? No idea. Could even be a new character. Whom I'd like it to be? Vivi, who has far better chemistry with the Straw Hats–and I mean all of them (minus the three she never got the chance to meet), not just one or two–than any of the other choices. Hell, just the possible interactions between Vivi and Robin (whom she knew as an enemy) alone sound more interesting than everything we've gotten from some of these other choices combined. And for those who believe "Vivi already is a Straw Hat", yes, I believe that too, and still do consider her to be at least an honorary Straw Hat member regardless. But I'd literally prefer her coming back and sailing on the Sunny with them as a full-time member than any of the other choices joining. If one of them does, I won't love it, but it'll be whatever. If Vivi comes back, I will love it.

                                Well, my stance that we'll get one more crewmember, no more or less, remains the same.

                                At this point, Yamato definitely feels like the most likely option, by far. None of the other so-called major candidates for consideration seem to come anywhere close to him:

                                • It never felt to me like Carrot was being built up to join even at her most prominent in WCI, and her complete lack of presence and any amount of individual importance in Wano has only sealed the deal. (I'm not really into the whole "but she could get 'her moment' later down the line, let's wait and see!" train of thought. I prefer to make judgements based on what we've already seen and what's already happened, not based on what could happen–let's be real, a LOT could happen in this series–and then if something changes, adjust accordingly.)
                                • Thanks to Tama's young age and complete lack of ability to defend herself, in addition to her power seeming like a poor fit for the SHs, I'm very doubtful about her as well. Yes, we do know now that Shinobu can age people up, but why Tama? I didn't like it being done to Momonosuke either, but at the very least, there was the justification that doing so put him at his correct "chronological" age (how old he would be if he hadn't time-jumped). Tama doesn't even have that reasoning. There's also the fact that, while it's a reasonable enough guess, it's never actually been established that she wants to leave Wano with Luffy (unlike with Yamato).
                                • None of the other retainers feel right when they're so devoted to Momo and Wano, and likewise for Momo himself, also wholly devoted to Wano.
                                • And Vivi, whom I mentioned above? Not much has changed there for me, haha. I still like her better than any of the other choices, and I still acknowledge that she's probably not an option, as much as I would like it. I'm only bringing her up because I did so last time.

                                As for Yamato himself, I'm definitely more receptive to him as a choice now than I was then, it's true, since we've seen far more of him. I like his design, he and Luffy seem to get along great, and Yamato has explicitly said he wants to leave Wano and go with Luffy. That being said, in terms of wanting him to join, I'm still not fully won over yet, so I'm waiting to vote in the poll. It'll be disappointing if he does so without changing his weird Oden fixation at all. I will fully admit that there's some bias here because I didn't like Oden, but I really want to see Yamato realize that you can look up to someone and want to live up to their legacy and admirable qualities–even if I personally believe he's admiring the wrong guy, haha--without literally declaring yourself to be that person and trying too hard to emulate them. If he can do that and decide to be himself, whoever that may end up being, while still looking up to Oden in a better way, then I'll be more on board with him as a potential crewmate–and for the record, I think the chances of that are pretty high considering his Oden emulation is primarily played for comedy. I'd just really rather not have him continue that on the Sunny as his major personality quirk; I don't really want to have to bring all the Oden wanking with us after this arc is over, haha. I'll be a lot more lukewarm about him as a member if that's the case.

                                That being said, though, I gotta say: whether he joins the crew or not, I definitely expect him to leave Wano in some way after this is all over. He has made it explicitly, abundantly clear that he wants to help free Wano from his shitty dad and then get outta dodge and go out to sea after being trapped on Wano/Onigashima his whole damned life. I just do not see the "he's gonna stay as a retainer" or "he's gonna be the guardian deity of Wano" arguments, at all. As other folks here have already pointed out, the only character in-universe who has been shown to want that for him is…Kaido, his abusive dad who forced him to stay there in the first place. Having Yamato decide at the end "Actually, after wanting to leave my whole life, I am gonna stay in Wano to protect it after all like my dad wanted me to…but for my own reasons, so it's okay, I'm still defying his wishes!" feels really lame and like a complete cop-out. I can't really say I understand why someone would want that fate for Yamato, either, unless it's like "I hate him as a character and I want him to be stuck in a life that makes him unhappy" or something petty like that, lol. But that doesn't seem to be the reasoning for anyone who's making the argument for him to stay.

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                                • DarthAsthma
                                  DarthAsthma @theackwardstation
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                                  @theackwardstation:

                                  I don't care too much about the strength argument either, but it's easy to see why Yamato looks like he'll be a top SH.

                                  In regards to Robin and Jimbe, there was a lot room for growth to surpass them in the future regardless of their rank at the time of joining (were they stronger than Sanji and Zoro at the time though? not necessarily) because they were never among the highest tier of power level. Jimbe was a Shichibukai, which is obviously impressive, but at the time of his recruitment we were already comfortable with the idea that Yonkou, Admirals and even Commander are stronger than the average Shichibukai.

                                  On the other hand, Yamato was giving a good fight to Kaido, who's said to be the strongest in the world – and if he's not, it should be close anyway. There may be some room for ambiguity in regards to Yamato's exact power level because we can't measure it scientifically, but it was really impressive. Arguably, Yamato is at the level of an Admiral, which is more or less what some of us expect to be the level of Sanji and Zoro by the end of the series, so there's not much room for them to surpass Yamato in the long run because he's already around their ceiling, unless things start to escalate like Dragon Ball in the final saga, or unless Oda suddenly pretends that Yamato is not as strong as it looked before.

                                  Yamato is very much like Oden in this sense.

                                  Nah my point is you think this shit does matter and it literally does not. Yamato's showing doesn't really mean anything beyond he can stall someone he's fought for years on years.
                                  Is Ulti, Kaido level for stalling Luffy? Is Apoo? Cause that's the actual power space of leeway Oda has demonstrated. It's all meaningless to get into.
                                  All these lines of thoughts just lead you into your braincells dying because of how stupid they are, the rabbit hole of if x beat y and c beat x = c stronger than x and y is just…. barf

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                                  • Zik
                                    Zik @Roosta
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                                    @Roosta:

                                    I'm new to this, but I'm curious about the history. People often mention how much Oda likes to surprise us, but in the end a lot of the broad strokes are pretty obvious. Has there ever been a time where the community as a whole thought something was going to happen only for Oda to go another way? For example, did most people think Vivi would join the crew permanently, or that the Merry would be the ship for the whole story, or that Ace would survive Marineford? My experience watching and reading for the past year is that Oda likes to surprise by dropping new information on top of what he's already built, rather than taking a big expectation and going a different way.

                                    I never thought Vivi was going to join but apparently some did.

                                    We all assumed we'd get a new shipwright and the Merry would be fixed and made like brand new. Most were not expecting for Robin to leave, Usopp to fight Luffy and elave over the Merry being done for, or that the new shipwright would be the guy that beat up Usopp and stole from the crew. From beginning to end Water 7 and Enies Lobby was chock full of surprises even in to the epilogue with the Garp, Dragon, New World revelations. Some things became more apparent as they were underway but nothing was obvious beforehand.

                                    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                    Last.fm

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                                    • theackwardstation
                                      theackwardstation @BellisarioFaith
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                                      @BellisarioFaith:

                                      That being said, though, I gotta say: whether he joins the crew or not, I definitely expect him to leave Wano in some way after this is all over. He has made it explicitly, abundantly clear that he wants to help free Wano from his shitty dad and then get outta dodge and go out to sea after being trapped on Wano/Onigashima his whole damned life. I just do not see the "he's gonna stay as a retainer" or "he's gonna be the guardian deity of Wano" arguments, at all. As other folks here have already pointed out, the only character in-universe who has been shown to want that for him is…Kaido, his abusive dad who forced him to stay there in the first place. Having Yamato decide at the end "Actually, after wanting to leave my whole life, I am gonna stay in Wano to protect it after all like my dad wanted me to…but for my own reasons, so it's okay, I'm still defying his wishes!" feels really lame and like a complete cop-out. I can't really say I understand why someone would want that fate for Yamato, either, unless it's like "I hate him as a character and I want him to be stuck in a life that makes him unhappy" or something petty like that, lol. But that doesn't seem to be the reasoning for anyone who's making the argument for him to stay.

                                      What's funny is that, ironically, half of this forum condemns Oden for following Roger to Laugh Tale to make his dreams come true (when Orochi's reign was just starting and still rather soft) while, at the same time, people see it as unforgivable to have Yamato stay to protect Wano in case Wano needs it. Two weights and two measures. Of course, the comparison is not symmetrical yet since we don't have, necessarily, an imminent threat in Wano after Kaido's defeat, but this idea is not out of the cards either, in abstract or concretely, especially now that we know the WG wants to annex Wano by force. Likewise, Vivi wanted to go with the SHs ("I'd like to continue my adventures, but when it comes down to it I love this kingdom, so I can't go!") after explicitly considering that Alabasta had tough times ahead to reconstruct itself after the civil war, which was less troubled than the recent history of Wano and its next steps opening to the world.

                                      Btw, I'm not saying Yamato has to stay in Wano since I'm actually one of the people who's okay with Oden's choice to go to Laugh Tale at the time of his decision, so Yamato can leave Wano too and I'll be supportive. That said, it's totally inside the realm of narrative development for a character to develop his "want" as he matures his desires and rediscover his role in life. In the case of Yamato, this could be his story since his parallels and symbology with Wano/Japan are so categorical that's almost like Oda is hinting this outcome as much as Yamato joining the SH crew.

                                      All that said, the fact that Yamato has been saying again and again that he'll leave with Luffy matters a lot. Not because it's mandatory that it happens just because it was said, but more because it would feel like Oda was trolling his readers if Yamato stayed behind after so much bait. Imagine the salt. It's almost untasteful to be so evil. At the same time, I have to say that Yamato is always repeating that he'll leave with the SHs without being invited or accepted, which is kinda forceful even if it becomes true, honestly. I also feel like Yamato's reasons to join specifically the SHs are rather artificial, since Yamato has chosen Luffy for being the "chosen one" and all the lore purposes, instead of their bonds have been developed in a more organic manner.

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                                      • BobLoblaw
                                        BobLoblaw @Zik
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                                        @Zik:

                                        This statement and then you're reasoning for why you think it's true just seems like more power scaling nonsense.

                                        Since when are character's strength let alone them at their strongest gauged by fighting weaker opponents? What exactly is fighting on par with each other? Yamato stalled Kaido for some chapters. Sanji and Zoro are going to defeat Kaido's #1 and #2 top officers. The reasoning to downplay Jimbe just reads as nonsensical especially when we know who he has fought in the past.

                                        The point is the "monster three" or "monster trio" or whatever they're called have always been considered the three strongest in the crew. My point is that hasn't ever changed, even with Jinbe joining now. Yamato would disrupt that longstanding dynamic, so you have one of two scenarios. Either that tradition gets broken to accommodate Yamato or it doesn't.

                                        Bounties aren't inflated and they aren't power levels. They're the measure of a characters threat level. That includes things like their strength, criminal acts, etc.

                                        It's fans fault and especially the power scalers that treat it as anything else.

                                        I'm aware of what bounties represent. They're irrelevant when it comes to assessing a person's actual combat abilities in a given scenario, which was my main point. I'll take longstanding traditions (monster three) over bounties any day of the week. See Jinbe.

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                                          NightGrinder @BobLoblaw
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                                          I think the worry about Yamato’s „being Oden“ schtick is somewhat overblown. Yes, there were two gags in close proximity about Luffy taking him on his ship because Roger took Oden and Momo being his son. Yes, if Yamato joins the „I am Oden“ stuff could be extremely annoying 60 chapters from that point on.

                                          But he mostly uses it as a metaphor for being free and opening up Wano. He barely shows any Oden mannerisms. In 20 years, he couldn’t even be arsed to pick up two swords and adopt the sword style Oden named after himself - that should be a no-brainer for someone who LITERALLY wants to be Oden (and a samurai). Instead, he wields his abusive father’s weapon and somewhat adopted his fighting style.

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                                          • electricmastro
                                            electricmastro @theackwardstation
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                                            @theackwardstation:

                                            What's funny is that, ironically, half of this forum condemns Oden for following Roger to Laugh Tale to make his dreams come true (when Orochi's reign was just starting and still rather soft) while, at the same time, people see it as unforgivable to have Yamato stay to protect Wano in case Wano needs it. Two weights and two measures. Of course, the comparison is not symmetrical yet since we don't have, necessarily, an imminent threat in Wano after Kaido's defeat, but this idea is not out of the cards either, in abstract or concretely, especially now that we know the WG wants to annex Wano by force. Likewise, Vivi wanted to go with the SHs ("I'd like to continue my adventures, but when it comes down to it I love this kingdom, so I can't go!") after explicitly considering that Alabasta had tough times ahead to reconstruct itself after the civil war, which was less troubled than the recent history of Wano and its next steps opening to the world.

                                            Btw, I'm not saying Yamato has to stay in Wano since I'm actually one of the people who's okay with Oden's choice to go to Laugh Tale at the time of his decision, so Yamato can leave Wano too and I'll be supportive. That said, it's totally inside the realm of narrative development for a character to develop his "want" as he matures his desires and rediscover his role in life. In the case of Yamato, this could be his story since his parallels and symbology with Wano/Japan are so categorical that's almost like Oda is hinting this outcome as much as Yamato joining the SH crew.

                                            All that said, the fact that Yamato has been saying again and again that he'll leave with Luffy matters a lot. Not because it's mandatory that it happens just because it was said, but more because it would feel like Oda was trolling his readers if Yamato stayed behind after so much bait. Imagine the salt. It's almost untasteful to be so evil. At the same time, I have to say that Yamato is always repeating that he'll leave with the SHs without being invited or accepted, which is kinda forceful even if it becomes true, honestly. I also feel like Yamato's reasons to join specifically the SHs are rather artificial, since Yamato has chosen Luffy for being the "chosen one" and all the lore purposes, instead of their bonds have been developed in a more organic manner.

                                            Yeah, even before Alabasta, Vivi expressed it clear that she really cared for her country and never got to the point that she'd leave it all behind in favor of the Straw Hats even though she's friends with them, in addition to Cobra getting older and possible sicker while she's growing up to potentially be ruler of them one day.

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                                            • BellisarioFaith
                                              BellisarioFaith
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                                              @theackwardstation:

                                              What's funny is that, ironically, half of this forum condemns Oden for following Roger to Laugh Tale to make his dreams come true (when Orochi's reign was just starting and still rather soft) while, at the same time, people see it as unforgivable to have Yamato stay to protect Wano in case Wano needs it. Two weights and two measures. Of course, the comparison is not symmetrical yet since we don't have, necessarily, an imminent threat in Wano after Kaido's defeat, but this idea is not out of the cards either, in abstract or concretely, especially now that we know the WG wants to annex Wano by force.

                                              Ehhh, there's another major reason the comparison isn't symmetrical besides what you mentioned: Oden was the legal heir to the shogunate of Wano, its future leader, and was also the current daimyo of one region of it at the time he left.

                                              Personally, the whole "Oden abandoned Wano" thing isn't as high on my list of reasons to dislike him as other factors are, and I took more issue with it the second time when he dropped Toki and the kids and Dog and Cat off and was like "I could clearly tell this place was getting screwed up, but, ah well, toodles". I did at least get the conflicting loyalties between the choices of helping Wano with its issues or going with Roger, so again, this isn't the biggest problem I have when citing why I don't like Oden, but I do totally get the complaint, and I'm can't say I had no problem with it, either. I can sympathize with wanting to have freedom and not being bound by your duties, but when you have that comparison with Vivi like you brought up, where she cared about her country and her people and practically everything she did that whole time we knew her was for the purpose of helping them, it's hard to say Oden doesn't come out of it looking worse than she did.

                                              Because, again, Oden was already a regional ruler and the rightful heir apparent to lead the entire country. Yamato is neither of those things. His dad is a usurper of a usurper who wants to put him on the throne, and Yamato, along with everyone else in the alliance, wants to put the rightful leader, the Kozuki family (via Momo), back on the throne. The only duty to Wano that Yamato has is feeling like he needs to free it from the crappy situation his own father put it in to begin with. Once he's done that via the Alliance defeating Kaido, Yamato doesn't owe Wano anything, and there's no reason that he (or the readers) should have to feel like he's obligated to stay.

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                                              • theackwardstation
                                                theackwardstation @electricmastro
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                                                @electricmastro:

                                                Yeah, even before Alabasta, Vivi expressed it clear that she really cared for her country and never got to the point that she'd leave it all behind in favor of the Straw Hats even though she's friends with them, in addition to Cobra getting older and possible sicker while she's growing up to potentially be ruler of them one day.

                                                It's perfectly understandable the route Oda chose for Vivi's character because she was introduced as the princess wanting to save her country, so her character was tied to that plot of Alabasta. However, Vivi was also written as someone who was struggling with that final decision because, if it were up to her most selfish desires, she'd rather be with her friends and have new adventures. But she chose responsability over everything else, so this is a thing in One Piece too. As things stand, the same principle can fit Yamato too, not unlike situations we saw before in the series, even if it's also perfectly fine if Yamato joins.

                                                –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                @BellisarioFaith:

                                                Ehhh, there's another major reason the comparison isn't symmetrical besides what you mentioned: Oden was the legal heir to the shogunate of Wano, its future leader, and was also the current daimyo of one region of it at the time he left.

                                                Personally, the whole "Oden abandoned Wano" thing isn't as high on my list of reasons to dislike him as other factors are, and I took more issue with it the second time when he dropped Toki and the kids and Dog and Cat off and was like "I could clearly tell this place was getting screwed up, but, ah well, toodles". I did at least get the conflicting loyalties between the choices of helping Wano with its issues or going with Roger, so again, this isn't the biggest problem I have when citing why I don't like Oden, but I do totally get the complaint, and I'm can't say I had no problem with it, either. I can sympathize with wanting to have freedom and not being bound by your duties, but when you have that comparison with Vivi like you brought up, where she cared about her country and her people and practically everything she did that whole time we knew her was for the purpose of helping them, it's hard to say Oden doesn't come out of it looking worse than she did.

                                                Because, again, Oden was already a regional ruler and the rightful heir apparent to lead the entire country. Yamato is neither of those things. His dad is a usurper of a usurper who wants to put him on the throne, and Yamato, along with everyone else in the alliance, wants to put the rightful leader, the Kozuki family (via Momo), back on the throne. The only duty to Wano that Yamato has is feeling like he needs to free it from the crappy situation his own father put it in to begin with. Once he's done that via the Alliance defeating Kaido, Yamato doesn't owe Wano anything, and there's no reason that he (or the readers) should have to feel like he's obligated to stay.

                                                I was referring specifically to the second time Oden left Wano, since that was the point when he went to Laugh Tale and Orochi was already in power.

                                                Your counterargument about Oden being the son of the shogun (while Yamato is not) is valid and shows another assymetry, but do you really feel like this? Because, honestly, I don't. The idea that some people are born with a burden because of their lineage while others are freer is not something that I think is fair, or at least not unfixable. Regarding Oden in particular, he never accepted his role as royalty and he was always very vocal about renouning this responsability, which is only forced on him due to his blood. Oden was happy to be disowned. He then became Daimyo after that (a title given to him, not asked by him), but that was a position he resigned the moment he became a pirate in the first place, since he never gave up on his dream to leave Wano. That was his choice. So it's not like Oden was a President who was abandoning his duty, but instead a citzen who everybody wants to be the President and forces it upon him to act like one while it's definitely not his wish. In other words, Oden was different from Vivi, who was always much more invested in her role as Princess, thus owning the responsability by free will.

                                                That's not to say that it wasn't selfish for Oden to have chosen his dreams over Wano when he left both times. However, if we go by the moral premise that a person has the duty to protect a country over anything personal, this morality can also be imposed on Yamato, especially if you agree with me that Oden was not different from any other regular person considering he never accepted his role as Shogun. And if we go by some sort of "lineage responsability", then what about the concept that Yamato has to make up for the destruction his father brought to the country? Imagine Yamato seeing that Wano became a big wasteland compared to the last time he set foot on the mainland.

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                                                • astagadragon
                                                  astagadragon @theackwardstation
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                                                  Re: Yamato too stronk

                                                  Yes, but going forward the crew will challenge the World Government, Marines, 2 Yonkos, Im and maybe the Revolutionary Army. They will need all firepower they can get, as you can see that Luffy, Zoro, Sanji and Nami getting their upgrades this arc.

                                                  Oh and remember, we don't see Jinbe at his peak yet. A life and death battle involving a Shichibukai, I'd imagine Jinbe will go as hard as climax Doflamingo. Hell I'd argue that in normal encounter, Jinbe is still stronger than Yamato. Dunk her on water and Jinbe wins automatically.

                                                  Monster trio? More like, make it monster quintet! Expanding the main character's crew with blatantly overpowered ally is normal in any shonen or game out there.

                                                  "No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.." - Venat

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                                                  • StrawHatJedi
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                                                    Well, I'm not going to vote because it's a binary. I believe Carrot is going to join, but that does not exclude Yamato's chances. I'm still not 100% sold on Yamato, but I think there's a strong possibility. But there's a good chance something else happens with Yamato.

                                                    Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker

                                                    "ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate

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                                                    • Zik
                                                      Zik @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                      @K.:

                                                      How do you reconcile the fact that the fleet are literally followers of Usopp and one of Usopp biggest lies is that he has 8000 followers. The current fleet has 5600.

                                                      Do you not believe in Usopp's lies?

                                                      Usopp could easily get 8000 separate followers.

                                                      Do you expect him to only get 2400 more?

                                                      Hmm could be, although with the mention Kaido did of everyone that gets close to Yamato dies. I would expect something as important as a sibling to be mentioned. At least more than the random soldier that gave them food.

                                                      Well Kaido didn't say anything like a detailed list. He mentioned some samurai. Oda just highlighted Ace and in a small panel that one Beast pirate (I assume) that fed Yamato.

                                                      Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                      Last.fm

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                                                      • K. Kira XXIII
                                                        K. Kira XXIII @Zik
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                                                        @Zik:

                                                        Usopp could easily get 8000 separate followers.

                                                        Find it hard to believe. They literally started calling him God Usopp and saying things like: I will follow you until the end of days. They are literally followers, of Usopp and Luffy. That's why the lie fits so well. Because they didn't exchange sake cups like they usually do, it is the fleet captains drinking the sake: doing what they want -> follow Luffy/Usopp.

                                                        Do you expect him to only get 2400 more?

                                                        Yes. And what do you mean "only", 8000 troops is quite big of a number.

                                                        Well Kaido didn't say anything like a detailed list. He mentioned some samurai. Oda just highlighted Ace and in a small panel that one Beast pirate (I assume) that fed Yamato.

                                                        I am saying that instance was a perfect chance to introduce such a character. I took that scene as Oda showing all the people that helped Yamato. Samurai, Ace and that Beast pirate.

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                                                        Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku

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                                                        • Shiebs
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                                                          I’d love an Avengers Endgame moment where it looks like the heroes are doomed and then we get the Grand Fleet comes to back them up at the last second

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                                                          • BobLoblaw
                                                            BobLoblaw @StrawHatJedi
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                                                            @Vongola_Boss_XI:

                                                            Well, I'm not going to vote because it's a binary. I believe Carrot is going to join, but that does not exclude Yamato's chances. I'm still not 100% sold on Yamato, but I think there's a strong possibility. But there's a good chance something else happens with Yamato.

                                                            No hedging. Pick a side and suffer the consequences like the rest of us. 😆

                                                            @Shiebs:

                                                            I’d love an Avengers Endgame moment where it looks like the heroes are doomed and then we get the Grand Fleet comes to back them up at the last second

                                                            Bart's fruit is made for that.

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                                                            • Zik
                                                              Zik @theackwardstation
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                                                              @theackwardstation:

                                                              What's funny is that, ironically, half of this forum condemns Oden for following Roger to Laugh Tale to make his dreams come true (when Orochi's reign was just starting and still rather soft) while, at the same time, people see it as unforgivable to have Yamato stay to protect Wano in case Wano needs it. Two weights and two measures. Of course, the comparison is not symmetrical yet since we don't have, necessarily, an imminent threat in Wano after Kaido's defeat, but this idea is not out of the cards either, in abstract or concretely, especially now that we know the WG wants to annex Wano by force. Likewise, Vivi wanted to go with the SHs ("I'd like to continue my adventures, but when it comes down to it I love this kingdom, so I can't go!") after explicitly considering that Alabasta had tough times ahead to reconstruct itself after the civil war, which was less troubled than the recent history of Wano and its next steps opening to the world.

                                                              Btw, I'm not saying Yamato has to stay in Wano since I'm actually one of the people who's okay with Oden's choice to go to Laugh Tale at the time of his decision, so Yamato can leave Wano too and I'll be supportive. That said, it's totally inside the realm of narrative development for a character to develop his "want" as he matures his desires and rediscover his role in life. In the case of Yamato, this could be his story since his parallels and symbology with Wano/Japan are so categorical that's almost like Oda is hinting this outcome as much as Yamato joining the SH crew.

                                                              All that said, the fact that Yamato has been saying again and again that he'll leave with Luffy matters a lot. Not because it's mandatory that it happens just because it was said, but more because it would feel like Oda was trolling his readers if Yamato stayed behind after so much bait. Imagine the salt. It's almost untasteful to be so evil. At the same time, I have to say that Yamato is always repeating that he'll leave with the SHs without being invited or accepted, which is kinda forceful even if it becomes true, honestly. I also feel like Yamato's reasons to join specifically the SHs are rather artificial, since Yamato has chosen Luffy for being the "chosen one" and all the lore purposes, instead of their bonds have been developed in a more organic manner.

                                                              The reason why this comparison isn't the same and pretty much bullshit is cuz Yamato has absolutely no obligation to Wano at all.

                                                              Yamato wanting to be Oden, wanting to what he did and couldn't, opening Wano's borders, getting rid of Kaido, etc. has all been an active choice. The reason Oden is looked at differently is cuz he skirted his duties eben after knowing some problems were brewing. He still chose to do something he felt was more important.

                                                              The Vivi example doesn't even track. Sure she wanted to join the crew but she loved her country and the ppl more. She made that abundantly clear more than once.

                                                              The thing with Yamato staying is a lot of you are advocating for something Oda has never done. He's never had a character express their dreams to be one thing repeatedly just for them not to achieve it (not talking about villains and Not talking about children in flashbacks).

                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                              @BobLoblaw:

                                                              The point is the "monster three" or "monster trio" or whatever they're called have always been considered the three strongest in the crew.

                                                              If you take that as an absolute rule then it'll remain that. Even after Yamato joins no matter your view on the power scaling of the strawhats.

                                                              My point is that hasn't ever changed, even with Jinbe joining now. Yamato would disrupt that longstanding dynamic, so you have one of two scenarios. Either that tradition gets broken to accommodate Yamato or it doesn't.

                                                              This is a totally ridiculous power scaling fan made created problem lol.

                                                              The answer is the precious tradition won't be broken.

                                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                              @NightGrinder:

                                                              I think the worry about Yamato’s „being Oden“ schtick is somewhat overblown. Yes, there were two gags in close proximity about Luffy taking him on his ship because Roger took Oden and Momo being his son. Yes, if Yamato joins the „I am Oden“ stuff could be extremely annoying 60 chapters from that point on.

                                                              But he mostly uses it as a metaphor for being free and opening up Wano. He barely shows any Oden mannerisms. In 20 years, he couldn’t even be arsed to pick up two swords and adopt the sword style Oden named after himself - that should be a no-brainer for someone who LITERALLY wants to be Oden (and a samurai). Instead, he wields his abusive father’s weapon and somewhat adopted his fighting style.

                                                              Yeah, ppl conveniently look over this constantly which is why I don't take the complaints seriously. Has more to do with their hate for Oden and annoyance with Yamato.

                                                              Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                              Last.fm

                                                              theackwardstation BobLoblaw 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                              • theackwardstation
                                                                theackwardstation @Zik
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                                                                @Zik:

                                                                The reason why this comparison isn't the same and pretty much bullshit is cuz Yamato has absolutely no obligation to Wano at all.

                                                                I never said Yamato has an obligation. I said the opposite, actually, about Yamato and Oden. What I commented is that people have double standards when they think this not similar to Oden, who also didn't have any obligation. You, for example, are saying that Oden skirted his duties, but that's just forcing it upon him despite the fact that the dude always renounced the politics of Wano since a young age and then became a pirate. So the same moral reasoning (which is not mine) could be aplied to Yamato, unless all that you can take into consideration for people's responsability is lineage.

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                                                                • Zik
                                                                  Zik @K. Kira XXIII
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                                                                  @K.:

                                                                  Find it hard to believe.

                                                                  Why?

                                                                  Do 8000 more strong warriors not exist? We still got giants and a couple more groups to meet and islands to go.

                                                                  They literally started calling him God Usopp and saying things like: I will follow you until the end of days. They are literally followers, of Usopp and Luffy. That's why the lie fits so well. Because they didn't exchange sake cups like they usually do, it is the fleet captains drinking the sake: doing what they want -> follow Luffy/Usopp.

                                                                  This doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying about Usopp getting 8000 followers. If anything all of that points to Usopp being able to do it again not that he can't or won't.

                                                                  Yes. And what do you mean "only", 8000 troops is quite big of a number.

                                                                  The idea Usopp can only gain 2400 more followers is limiting and pretty silly. Extremely arbitrary.

                                                                  I am saying that instance was a perfect chance to introduce such a character. I took that scene as Oda showing all the people that helped Yamato. Samurai, Ace and that Beast pirate.

                                                                  I mean that's okay if you think it was a perfect chance.

                                                                  I'd agree if I thought Yamato's flashbacks were done or Kaido wouldn't get one or if Yamato wasn't going to interact with Kaido again.

                                                                  Regardless, I don't think Luffy will be making new siblings with Yamato or anyone else.

                                                                  Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                  Last.fm

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                                                                  • FelRes
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                                                                    Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.

                                                                    Steam | Battle.net: FelRes#1963

                                                                    \(゜∀゜ ) TSUKAME PURAIDO !

                                                                    \( `ー´)TSUKAME SUCCESS !

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                                                                    • Zik
                                                                      Zik @theackwardstation
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                                                                      @theackwardstation:

                                                                      I never said Yamato has an obligation. I said the opposite, actually, about Yamato and Oden. What I commented is that people have double standards when they think this not similar to Oden, who also didn't have any obligation. You, for example, are saying that Oden skirted his duties, but that's just forcing it upon him despite the fact that the dude always renounced the politics of Wano since a young age and then became a pirate. So the same moral reasoning (which is not mine) could be aplied to Yamato, unless all that you can take into consideration for people's responsability is lineage.

                                                                      Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them. You can say they were forced upon him but that doesn't change anything. They were still duties he chose not to fulfill.

                                                                      I don't get how you can compare that to Yamato who isn't from Wano and the reason for his ties to the country is cuz Kaido brought him there as a kid.

                                                                      That moral reasoning can not be applied to Yamato cuz Yamato was not in the same situation as Oden. Its pretty obvious Oda has put Yamato in the exact opposite situation. He's pursued the acceptance of samurai, wants to be one in his own way while making it clear since being a child he wanted to leave and go explore the world before coming back and helping Wano.

                                                                      Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                      Last.fm

                                                                      theackwardstation Deicide 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                                                                        theackwardstation @Zik
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                                                                        @Zik:

                                                                        Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them. You can say they were forced upon him but that doesn't change anything. They were still duties he chose not to fulfill.

                                                                        I don't get how you can compare that to Yamato who isn't from Wano and the reason for his ties to the country is cuz Kaido brought him there as a kid.

                                                                        That moral reasoning can not be applied to Yamato cuz Yamato was not in the same situation as Oden. Its pretty obvious Oda has put Yamato in the exact opposite situation. He's pursued the acceptance of samurai, wants to be one in his own way while making it clear since being a child he wanted to leave and go explore the world before coming back and helping Wano.

                                                                        I don't see any argument in your post for why Oden had this obligation. It's just stated as a fact that doesn't need to be justified. I don't know why.

                                                                        Since I don't understand why you're saying that, I have the trouble of having to suppose the reasoning behind your assumption, and I can think of two different justifications: (1) Oden's responsability is due to his surname and nothing else, (2) the responsability comes from the ethical axiom that nobody can put their personal desires over social security. Both are obviously arbitrary as any other moral postulate, so you're free to pick your poison, or to take the opposite stance and agree with me that not even Oden had an obligation. As for me, my non-monarchic self disagrees with the first option and, regarding the second option, it assumes an universal duty burdened by all people, and it applies to Yamato just as to everybody else as long as Wano is under threat. It's valid, but it's not my point of view.

                                                                        Btw, as a side note, Yamato may not have been born in Wano, but Yamato was raised in Wano since he was at least 3 years old, maybe even less than that, which is more than enough to inform nationality according to most legal systems, which are all based on philosophical concepts of identity. Besides, Yamato is completely a part of that culture, and willingly seeks to be recognized as a samurai. More than that, Yamato is the son of the effective ruler of the country for the last 20 years, so he's definitely not some sort of outsider unrelated to Wano. In fact, if you take into consideration that responsability comes from the surname, Yamato has a big debt to pay back to the people of Wano.

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                                                                          @Zik:

                                                                          Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them.

                                                                          By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?

                                                                          (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).

                                                                          Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                            I've been curious for a long time as to what the moral of Oden's story was, especially as Oda sees it, since there are many that expect Yamato's journey to become Oden means learning from Oden's mistakes. Some of the "mistakes" I've heard include:

                                                                            • Leaving Wano in the first place: he abandoning it.
                                                                            • Not staying when he returned with Toki: he knew something was wrong and left anyway.
                                                                            • Taking Orochi at his word and dancing instead of fighting immediately: maybe he could have won when Kaido was less prepared.
                                                                            • Trying to kill Kaido alone, only counting on his retainers and only at the very end.
                                                                            • Generally trying to shoulder everything himself, and not relying on others.

                                                                            It's easy to point to any of these and say "this was his big mistake, it wouldn't have gone so wrong if not for that"… but also, the alliance wouldn't be on the cusp of defeating Kaido if he didn't do any of these. If he didn't leave Wano either time, Roger wouldn't have found the One Piece. If he didn't try to kill Kaido, then Momonosuke and the others wouldn't have been sent away, which is what enabled them to enlist the help of the Worst Generation (particularly Luffy). I can't say if he wouldn't have succeeded in killing Kaido before all the dancing, but he only danced because he wanted to save the people in front of him, so I can't see that as his great mistake.

                                                                            The way I've been thinking recently is: Oda doesn't see any of these as mistakes, but just actions of a noble but flawed and foolish figure. I don't think Oda wants us to think it's bad to be flawed and foolish, especially considering what Luffy is like. However, maybe Oden's responsibility was to endure Kaido's rule until Joyboy arrived so they could fight together to open Wano. He died leaving this duty unfinished, and this is what Yamato has been doing in Oden's place. I find this idea satisfying because Yamato chose to accept the duty because he was inspired, rather than because of his blood or a fruit he ate when he was hungry. I expect that the return of Momonosuke and the events that are currently transpiring will mean Momonosuke can take on the burden of responsibility for Wano, and Yamato will be free to pursue his own adventure however Oda decides. I do also expect some kind of payoff for the guardian deity DF thing, though... maybe something like Yamato carrying the will of the people of Wano and fighting with Joyboy against the WG.

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                                                                              King Cannon @Deicide
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                                                                              @Deicide:

                                                                              By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?

                                                                              (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).

                                                                              It's extremely unhealthy in Yamato's case, since his "obligations" come with abusive baggage.

                                                                              Oden was a beloved lord meanwhile and didn't really need to leave besides a vague sense of crampness.

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                                                                              • Johnny B. Decent
                                                                                Johnny B. Decent @FelRes
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                                                                                @FelRes:

                                                                                Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.

                                                                                Maybe either Wang Zhi or Silver Axe?

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                                                                                • BobLoblaw
                                                                                  BobLoblaw @Zik
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                                                                                  @Zik:

                                                                                  If you take that as an absolute rule then it'll remain that. Even after Yamato joins no matter your view on the power scaling of the strawhats.

                                                                                  It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.

                                                                                  This is a totally ridiculous power scaling fan made created problem lol.

                                                                                  The answer is the precious tradition won't be broken.

                                                                                  It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.

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                                                                                    Boombalaga @BobLoblaw
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                                                                                    @BobLoblaw:

                                                                                    It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.

                                                                                    It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.

                                                                                    I don't think anyone should be worried about "Yamato will disrupt Monster Trio dynamic" thing.

                                                                                    From my point of view, Zoro and Sanji will fight the second and third strongest enemies like before, even after Yamato join the crew.

                                                                                    Heck, Zoro and Sanji might even surpass Yamato's strength at the end of Wanokuni, who knows?

                                                                                    @Johnny:

                                                                                    Maybe either Wang Zhi or Silver Axe?

                                                                                    Either of them would be pretty dope, man.

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                                                                                      Shiebs @FelRes
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                                                                                      Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.

                                                                                      I hope it’s a new character

                                                                                      I can’t think of any characters we already know that would join the Black Beards Crew except maybe Urouge or if Oda really wants to fuck with expectations Gin

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                                                                                        @King:

                                                                                        It's extremely unhealthy in Yamato's case, since his "obligations" come with abusive baggage.

                                                                                        Oden was a beloved lord meanwhile and didn't really need to leave besides a vague sense of crampness.

                                                                                        Yeah, but look at this from another perspective.

                                                                                        Oden is accused of being selfish because he left responsibilities for his dreams, and in the meantime, Wano fell to a danger Oden wasn't aware at first, and only barely aware of. Later, he chose to not know more about it because he knew he wouldn't be able to leave.

                                                                                        But people expect Yamato to leave Wano because he dreams for the wider world, denying that he may also have responsibilities as "Oden" and "Wano's guardian", even now that we know the opening of Wano will endanger the country throught the WG's actions. Yamato is the strongest defender Wano has (he was able to fight Kaido alone while all the Nine Red Scabbards together couldn't). Wouldn't Yamato also be selfish by leaving?

                                                                                        One may say that Oden had an obligation to Wano, while Yamato hasn't. But that obligation was created solely by blood. As a person, Oden wanted to be free of it.

                                                                                        In this "freedom versus duty" dichotomy, I can see the story going either way. Maybe Yamato finds acceptance and reckognition in Wano and becomes a samurai like he hinted he once wanted to be. Or maybe he feels any duty he had has been fulfilled and he's totally free to go out and be a pirate to his heart's fulfillment.

                                                                                        The problem is that this arc is a samurai story, and Yamato represents Japan itself. In samurai stories, duty is often a very important theme, the core of honor itself. With how much I think Yamato's fondness for Wano and the samurai have been increasedly hinted lately, I am expecting that duty and self-fulfillment throught it may become a greater drive for him in the end.

                                                                                        Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                                        • Zik
                                                                                          Zik @theackwardstation
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                                                                                          @theackwardstation:

                                                                                          I don't see any argument in your post for why Oden had this obligation.

                                                                                          You stated it and acknowledged it yourself though. I'm not even sure why I have to make an argument for that.

                                                                                          Or were you using that stance to try and apply it to Yamato?

                                                                                          It's just stated as a fact that doesn't need to be justified. I don't know why.

                                                                                          If you're not pretending Oden wasn't the son of the shogun, made a daimyo, came back wanting to open Wano's borders and made a deal with Kaido/Orochi, then fought Kaido then I'm not sure we're even talking about the same story.

                                                                                          Oden was told of his duty and he decided not to do it. That's the story. If you think it wasn't an obligation, okay but I don't see why it wasn't.

                                                                                          Btw, as a side note, Yamato may not have been born in Wano, but Yamato was raised in Wano since he was at least 3 years old, maybe even less than that, which is more than enough to inform nationality according to most legal systems, which are all based on philosophical concepts of identity. Besides, Yamato is completely a part of that culture, and willingly seeks to be recognized as a samurai. More than that, Yamato is the son of the effective ruler of the country for the last 20 years, so he's definitely not some sort of outsider unrelated to Wano.

                                                                                          Yamato as we've seen grew up idolizing Oden, admiring samurai, hoping to be one, accepted by them, and then was chained up on Onigashima for 20 years.

                                                                                          Yamato at the age of 8 declared he would come back to Wano (assuming that he would leave) and help free Wano according to the prediction/prophecy Oden made. Yamato chose to do that. This is already a fact stated in the story. There's no reason to make up a reason to say Yamato is responsible for his father's actions. That's like a made up thing to throw out there when Yamato has already committed himself to freeing Wano. If the story was Yamato feels he needs make up for everything his father has done then story would be that.

                                                                                          Now to what actually happened, Yamato never actually got to leave so his new plan was to help beat Kaido, free Wano, and then leave.

                                                                                          Orochi has been the ruler of Wano the past 20 years. Yamato is not his son. Orochi has been the face Wano leadership the past 20 years. That's why CP0 secretly meets with him.

                                                                                          Calling Kaido the effective ruler of Wano rigs false. He's the power behind Orochi but from what we've seen he's remained a pirate and his base is in Onigashima. He got his weapon making factories and thats all he cared for. He didn't rule Wano. He couldn't be bothered with it.

                                                                                          Even now, when his plan is move his pirate island on top of the capitol and make Wano a lawless land for pirates is to still make his son shogun to handle the actual ruling of the country.

                                                                                          In fact, if you take into consideration that responsability comes from the surname, Yamato has a big debt to pay back to the people of Wano.

                                                                                          This doesn't make sense.

                                                                                          I brought up Oden being the son of the shogun and his duty to talk about what is expected of him. He chose not to adhere to that until much later in life. He abandoned his duties.

                                                                                          Yamato as Kaido's son (especially since no surname has been stated) doesn't have any debt to pay back. The reasoning isn't whatever the parents do the children have to pay for. The story specifically tells you that's how you make a characters like Orochi and Kanjuro. I'm not even sure how you reached this conclusion when compared to Oden and his father.

                                                                                          Just because your father did something bad to a group of ppl doesn't mean you as their child owe a debt to those ppl. Really not sure what guideline your following.

                                                                                          Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                                          Last.fm

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                                                                                          • BobLoblaw
                                                                                            BobLoblaw @Boombalaga
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                                                                                            @Boombalaga:

                                                                                            I don't think anyone should be worried about "Yamato will disrupt Monster Trio dynamic" thing.

                                                                                            From my point of view, Zoro and Sanji will fight the second and third strongest enemies like before, even after Yamato join the crew.

                                                                                            Heck, Zoro and Sanji might even surpass Yamato's strength at the end of Wanokuni, who knows?

                                                                                            So you expect Zoro and Sanji to master CoC-based attacks while also gaining the additional strength of a mythical zoan-based DF by the end of this arc?

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                                                                                              @Deicide:

                                                                                              The problem is that this arc is a samurai story, and Yamato represents Japan itself. In samurai stories, duty is often a very important theme, the core of honor itself. With how much I think Yamato's fondness for Wano and the samurai have been increasedly hinted lately, I am expecting that duty and self-fulfillment throught it may become a greater drive for him in the end.

                                                                                              Yamato's actions over the past 20 years show that he would be willing to give whatever it takes to defend Wano, so learning to give up on adventuring to continue doing what he's been doing for 20 years doesn't really seem like a real character arc. I get the feeling he just believes that opening Wano and unleashing the samurai on the world will mean that it won't need its strongest fighters sitting at home waiting to fight.

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                                                                                                @Deicide:

                                                                                                By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?

                                                                                                Depends.

                                                                                                Then again, you're kinda presuming what his lineage's expectations are.

                                                                                                Are you going solely by what Kaido said? I wouldn't really take his word for it. Feel like there's some pain behind those statements that'll be revealed in a flashback.

                                                                                                But if we later on learn that all oni have this tradition or law to be a part from humanity and feel they are superior to humans, cant be friends with them at all, etc. then yes Yamato is being selfish and is ditching his obligations as an oni (assuming Yamato is 100% oni cuz if he's not Kaido's even more of a hypocrite).

                                                                                                But I don't see anything wrong with that. If anything it'd further cement Yamato as the black sheep of his ppl (that admired humans; samurai) just like Chopper was or how a few other strawhats were

                                                                                                Its not like I said Oden abandoned his duties and obligations in Wano and therefore he is a bad person. Sometimes being selfish is the right thing to do.

                                                                                                Most of the strawhats were a bit selfish. You gotta be to achieve your dreams sometimes.

                                                                                                (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).

                                                                                                Yeah this 100% false.

                                                                                                I never said Oden was wrong for following his dreams.

                                                                                                You just made that up for some reason.

                                                                                                Please don't put words in my mouth or try to warp my stance.

                                                                                                Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                                                Last.fm

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                                                                                                  @Roosta:

                                                                                                  Yamato's actions over the past 20 years show that he would be willing to give whatever it takes to defend Wano, so learning to give up on adventuring to continue protecting Wano doesn't really seem like a real character arc.

                                                                                                  It depends a lot on what the story chooses to focus on, really. If he actually earns for companionship and acceptance, but saw himself unable to achieve it due to his father's ideas ("you are an oni, the samurai will never accept you"), then finding out that he earned to be a samurai and can indeed mix with the people of Wano will be his character arc.

                                                                                                  With the WG threat now being revealed, I feel that plot point could very well be resolved by the people of Wano not wanting Luffy to get involved, but to defend their country themselves. Cue Yamato chosing to side Wano in this and the scene of the two guardian deities, the dragon and the wolf, coming to teach the invaders a lesson.

                                                                                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                  @Zik:

                                                                                                  Please don't put words in my mouth or try to warp my stance.

                                                                                                  I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, I am, however, challenging opinions, and that's a perfectly valid arguing technique.

                                                                                                  Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                                                    Yamato is the strongest defender Wano has

                                                                                                    Wrong, Luffy is.
                                                                                                    His title as Yonko / Pirate King will take care of that, won’t it?

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                                                                                                      @BobLoblaw:

                                                                                                      It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.

                                                                                                      No. You literally just made up the tenets for a rule and just called it "tradition".

                                                                                                      All I'm saying is your assumptions about Yamato won't and don't have to break the rule regardless of what you think.

                                                                                                      It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.

                                                                                                      Everything about your power scaling analysis of why Jimbe isn't stronger than Zoro or Sanji is ridiculous. It doesn't make sense or is even consistent with the facts about Jimbe and his fights.

                                                                                                      And again like I just said the answer is your precious tradition won't be broken.

                                                                                                      Monster trio is taking on top 3 strongest characters (Big Mom aside) and Yamato hasn't defeated anyone to fit in that ranking. All he's done is knock out a tobi roppo, attack another, and stall a yonkou for a bit.

                                                                                                      It's totally on you if you want to pretend that means he's stronger than Sanji and Zoro. Same way its on you for thinking Jimbe (easily) beating a weaker tobi roppo opponent means he's weaker than Sanji and Zoro.

                                                                                                      Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                                                      Last.fm

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                                                                                                        With the WG threat now being revealed, I feel that plot point could very well be resolved by the people of Wano not wanting Luffy to get involved, but to defend their country themselves. Cue Yamato chosing to side Wano in this and the scene of the two guardian deities, the dragon and the wolf, coming to teach the invaders a lesson.

                                                                                                        I see where you're coming from better now, but Oden did also put emphasis on Wano being ready to work with Joyboy when he appeared.

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