Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
The biggest question unanswered for me and the reason I'm undecided about her joining is her dream. "Go to sea" is vague and non-specific. All of the Straw Hats want to "go to sea." Go to sea…. and do what? What's her dream? What's the thing that can only be accomplished by sailing with the Straw Hats?
It's kind of wrapped up in the "go out to sea" thing, but I think a big part of it, on top of the more general "seeing the world" and "going on adventures", is finishing what his idol, Oden, couldn't see through to the end, both inside and outside of Wano.
Taking down Kaidou and opening Wano's borders is pretty much self explanatory, but in addition to that, we should remember that Yamato knows Luffy's dream (the unrevealed thing that follows becoming Pirate King) because Ace mentioned it while the two of them were together. And due to having read Oden's journal Yams also knows that Luffy's dream parallels the (also unrevealed) dream that Roger told to Oden (and Whitebeard) that convinced Oden to join him on his final journey.
Roger, Oden, etc. found out that they were "too early" when they reached Laugh Tale, so for all that they achieved, that final goal had to be left undone and entrusted to a future generation who would follow in their footsteps - i.e. Luffy and the Strawhats.
While I suspect that few specifics about what they found on Laugh Tale were recorded in his journal, Oden returned to Wano with a much stronger drive to open its borders because the nation needed to be ready for what was going to happen ~20 years later - implicitly, when the man Laugh Tale is truly waiting for arrives. Whether or not Oden would be looking to make a return trip to Laugh Tale himself if he were still alive, it's nonetheless clear to me that Oden wanted to see that part of his life through to the end, to see done what he and Roger could not accomplish themselves, and the fact that he died before that could happen is almost certainly something Oden regretted.
That's at least part of what I think is driving Yamato, in regards to his interest in going out to sea. Plenty of seeing the world and adventures to be had, but also the chance to help the next Pirate King do what the previous Pirate King could not, and closing the book on the last proverbial chapter that Oden didn't live long enough to write.
Inherited Will.
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I really think to progress this discussion further, there needs to be a solidified argument what Yamato's dream is supposed to be as well as her inherited will. Once Wano's borders open, Oden's will will already have been completed since that's what he wanted to fulfill once he returned from his voyage with Roger.
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Oden's will doesn't stop at opening Wano's borders, it's only one of the steps towards welcoming the promised figure and working alongside them towards whatever Joy Boy and the Ancient Kingdom had planned/promised.
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Helping out the promised figure was something Oden had planned the country of Wano doing alongside him, though no one really knows what the reason for why. Oden had planned since his return to open Wano's borders and was verbatim what he told his retainers they should do in his stead.
He was only impeded because of Orochi holding citizens as hostages and his betrayal.
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Helping out the promised figure was something Oden had planned the country of Wano doing, though no one really knows what the reason for why. Oden had planned since his return to open Wano's borders and was verbatim what he told his retainers they should do in his stead.
Quite right, but the point I was trying to make is that I believe Oden's will goes beyond just what Wano itself needs to do - Momonosuke and the Akazaya will have that part covered.
It's about what Roger left undone because they reached Laugh Tale too early, and what "Oden" would do when Roger's successor is making that voyage. To my mind, it's not even a question: he'd go with him.
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I really think to progress this discussion further, there needs to be a solidified argument what Yamato's dream is supposed to be as well as her inherited will. Once Wano's borders open, Oden's will will already have been completed since that's what he wanted to fulfill once he returned from his voyage with Roger.
In addition to Joy Boy and the end part of Luffy’s dream, it’s possible Yamato will want to bring the dawn to the entire world, going by how she told Momo would help bring the world to there and that Luffy has a “D.” in his name, which may or may not be related to the dawn, and that Oden seemed to be waiting for Luffy.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I just want to emphasize again that being undecided about Yamato doesn't automatically make someone "always wrong about everything."
Undecided ppl are definitely not who I am talking about in that post.
Not sure how you could confuse that with what I said.
So I would say your point would need to be emphasized elsewhere.
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@TLC:
Did you just completely overlook the look of wonder and excitement Yamato has at all the cool things he read in that journal? The clear focus of that page. Fighting for Wano is not Yamato's big dream, it's a by product of his big dream which is to be like Oden and see the things he saw. Protecting Momo and Wano are part of it but the defining feature of his idol is to leave the confines of his country and explore the world.
Oden did mention that the whole world was waiting for a figure as opposed to just Wano. If it was really that important to stay in Wano, then there wouldn’t be this desire to leave it in the first place.
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I do think its pretty logical that once Linlin, King, Queen, Fukuro and Orochi are dealt with, we're going back to keep exploring Yamato.
Is just that the remaining villains are way too important and deserve more than the others, that's whats putting Yamato on hold momentarily.
In the meantime, the author makes sure we're still following Yamato and her story, because it costs nothing to give the next nakama constant appearances.. I'm looking at you.. Kurozomi O-Tama:getlost:
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I do think its pretty logical that once Linlin, King, Queen, Fukuro and Orochi are dealt with, we're going back to keep exploring Yamato.
Is just that the remaining villains are way too important and deserve more than the others, that's whats putting Yamato on hold momentarily.
In the meantime, the author makes sure we're still following Yamato and her story, because it costs nothing to give the next nakama constant appearances.. I'm looking at you.. Kurozomi O-Tama:getlost:
Or even help fight one of the enemies if need be. I suppose she has a ways to go before presumably moving on from trying to impersonate Oden so as to carry on his will too.
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Bewitching kunoichi!
Tbh, these discussions the last 2 years or so have been quite lacklustre, it used to be the carrot fans (in general not everyone) that were passive aggressive towards anyone with opposing opinions, but now the Yama-o fans are doing the same thing, what comes around, goes goes I guess.
I've probably been guilty of it myself.After this has been settled I feel kind of done with the one piece community.
Have you actually faced much passive aggression for Tama?
Cause honestly I've always thought that outside the age thing the arguments for Tama are really good. I don't agree with it but I think they're sound and make a lot of sense. Hence outside people driving with the age argument I cant imagine that you've gotten much aggressive pushback.
But feel free to correct me if that's wrong.
For me I always appreciate a decent case based on the material even if things don't turnout as guessed same with the Sukiyaki/Tengu theory. -
I also appreciate the discussion of Tama. I don't personally think she's going to join, but it's an interesting conversation.
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Let them come, all discussions about Tama, because she contributes many things to the raid!
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Monthly reminder Yamato will be the Strawhats pirate apprentice. Her possibly being a closet fanboy only enhances the chances of that coming to pass
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Have you actually faced much passive aggression for Tama?
Cause honestly I've always thought that outside the age thing the arguments for Tama are really good. I don't agree with it but I think they're sound and make a lot of sense. Hence outside people driving with the age argument I cant imagine that you've gotten much aggressive pushback.
But feel free to correct me if that's wrong.
For me I always appreciate a decent case based on the material even if things don't turnout as guessed same with the Sukiyaki/Tengu theory.The age thing is SUCH a disqualifier there's just no reason to seriously think about her without that being addressed first, the same reason there was no point in discussing a mermaid character that hadn't had their tail split yet. There's no discussion or thought to be had, because its SO strong a negative that it just can't be overcome.
Points to Solid for passion though.
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The age thing is SUCH a disqualifier there's just no reason to seriously think about her without that being addressed first, the same reason there was no point in discussing a mermaid character that hadn't had their tail split yet. There's no discussion or thought to be had, because its SO strong a negative that it just can't be overcome.
Points to Solid for passion though.
I mean I can personally agree with that but to me I can still appreciate the actual arguments around Tama because a lot of the common checkboxes that are shared among strawhats apply to her and she had decent focus in the manga as well.
Regardless of your personal take on the age thing at least the arguments that Tama has a dream, she has a personal connection to Luffy, she has a tragic childhood, she has had decent focus in the manga, etc are all things you can back up with pages.
And when people so often do not apply this type of thinking and just pull stuff from their daydreams it makes it just very easy to appreciate arguments that are actually based on something tangible.Another way to put it there is this youtube guy called marco the theorist who is pretty niche and he puts out stuff that I really like because the basis on his guesses is actually trying to connect things from panels. Even if it is dead wrong I feel like you can at least appreciate the thinking process.
And then we have people like morj where the thinking process is…. well...
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The bolded is definitely wrong because Yamato has probably more spotlight than any Straw Hat besides Luffy.
We can talk about flashbacks, interactions, etc., but those can happen literally in any minute. Right now, what matters is screentime, and Yamato has lots of it, even eclipsing more popular characters.
Like, this is the definite sign of a main character. Take Momo, who's also important to Wano, being currently relegated to staying in one place making mini-clouds during an occasional panel or two like the secondary character he is. Or Kin'emon currently bleeding to death in a corner somewhere because he's not more important (despite being the Scabbard leader). Meanwhile, Yamato is shown with agency and is stumbling into all sorts of events happening in Onigashima, taking huge chunks of chapters with her presence.
Oda knows what characters he wants people to focus on. The question then being "why?"
I can see to that. For supposedly appearing in the Wano Country Arc so late, she has managed to appear in more panels than some of the Straw Hats themselves:
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/qxbuvn/the_top_50_characters_in_wano_as_of_chapter_1032/
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If Tama was at least 13 and could fight for herself a bit I'd be supporting her.
Instead she played her part and then literally retired from the fight and left things up to her new kibi controlled followers.
A ninja actually joining would've been cool. Oda actually depicting a badass ninja would've been even better.
.@DarthAsthma:
I mean I can personally agree with that but to me I can still appreciate the actual arguments around Tama because a lot of the common checkboxes that are shared among strawhats apply to her and she had decent focus in the manga as well.
Regardless of your personal take on the age thing at least the arguments that Tama has a dream, she has a personal connection to Luffy, she has a tragic childhood, she has had decent focus in the manga, etc are all things you can back up with pages.
And when people so often do not apply this type of thinking and just pull stuff from their daydreams it makes it just very easy to appreciate arguments that are actually based on something tangible.Another way to put it there is this youtube guy called marco the theorist who is pretty niche and he puts out stuff that I really like because the basis on his guesses is actually trying to connect things from panels. Even if it is dead wrong I feel like you can at least appreciate the thinking process.
And then we have people like morj where the thinking process is…. well...LOL
Smoker joining after Momo.
That's not even what's the worst about that but it stuck out.
I tend to think Morj is usually wrong any time I see any of his theories pop up. Not a fan.
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@Zik:
If Tama was at least 13 and could fight for herself a bit I'd be supporting her.
Instead she played her part and then literally retired from the fight and left things up to her new kibi controlled followers.
A ninja actually joining would've been cool. Oda actually depicting a badass ninja would've been even better.
I suppose the bar was set quite high when it was established an 11 year old kid defeated Zoro many times, even though Zoro could defeat adults. Tama could have easily been written to be a fighter like her, yet for some reason she wasn't.
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I suppose the bar was set quite high when it was established an 11 year old kid defeated Zoro many times, even though Zoro could defeat adults. Tama could have easily been written to be a fighter like her, yet for some reason she wasn't.
Tama's even younger, and it's a plot point that the grunts in this arc are notably tougher than the grunts from previous arcs.
Also, Tama's devil fruit is hyper-specialized for the story's current situation.
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@Zik:
A ninja actually joining would've been cool. Oda actually depicting a badass ninja would've been even better.
I'm not sure if it was speculation or if he actually said it somewhere, but the thought is he doesn't want to do any cool ninjas because he doesn't want to step on Naruto's toes. And that's also why he waited so long to do the Japan arc.
If Naruto had just been a 4 year quick hit instead of a 15 year long runner that started around the same time it might be different. Plus he and Kishi are friends.
He never speaks of Kubo or Bleach though…
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I suppose the bar was set quite high when it was established an 11 year old kid defeated Zoro many times, even though Zoro could defeat adults. Tama could have easily been written to be a fighter like her, yet for some reason she wasn't.
Even Kuina admitted that Zoro was going to completely overtake her as soon as he hit puberty. If she'd lived another two or three years Zoro would have started winning every fight.
And both of them were only holding their own in the weakest area in the world with the worst fighters.
It sucks that in a world of special techniques and devil fruits and haki that they felt this was the case but… raw strength would have started overtaking her skill pretty soon.
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Hypothetically speaking would devil fruits really matter that much if you went by the "honorable" way of mano-o-mano combat (so no diamond fruit cheesing or whatsoever).
Like would it break their code if they incorporated their abilities into their swordmanship or whatsoever -
I mean I can personally agree with that but to me I can still appreciate the actual arguments around Tama because a lot of the common checkboxes that are shared among strawhats apply to her and she had decent focus in the manga as well.
Regardless of your personal take on the age thing at least the arguments that Tama has a dream, she has a personal connection to Luffy, she has a tragic childhood, she has had decent focus in the manga, etc are all things you can back up with pages.
And when people so often do not apply this type of thinking and just pull stuff from their daydreams it makes it just very easy to appreciate arguments that are actually based on something tangible.Another way to put it there is this youtube guy called marco the theorist who is pretty niche and he puts out stuff that I really like because the basis on his guesses is actually trying to connect things from panels. Even if it is dead wrong I feel like you can at least appreciate the thinking process.
And then we have people like morj where the thinking process is…. well...Make 4 'Royalty' (Brook was Captain of the Royal Guard in a 'certain kingdom') and swap Momo for Vivi and you have the crew I've been predicting. I have been arguing for Smoker for 15 years and I'm not giving up now lol.
But I also don't agree with this type of pattern or think it has true predictive power.
I simply think Vivi is going to return. Whole Cake convinced me of Carrot.
The moment I began to think Smoker would eventually join was in Alabasta when Zoro pulled Smoker out of the water. It was the look on Luffy's face when he said, 'I kinda like you.' That planted the thought. And it has grown since then. But the reasoning is more complicated.
Chapter 439, 'The Third and the Seventh'. The chapter is all about the crew. It's their departure from Water Seven and the celebration of both Franky joining and Usopp returning. The only other events in the chapter focus on the final farewell to the city of water and its people.
In the following chapter, 440, Oda gives us glimpses of a number of allies and friends from past story arcs reacting to the news from Enies Lobby. But two characters are instead shown reacting to the news one chapter earlier in 439 - Smoker and Vivi.
In the buildup to the final scene of the chapter where Usopp and Franky's (re)joining celebration takes place, we first see two characters reacting to the news. First Smoker, then Vivi. In fact, it's 'Luffy will be the Pirate King' moment. It's just very interesting because these particular characters receive the spotlight in 439. The rest of the friends and allies are presented in chronological order (order of first appearance) in 440. Oda broke sequence for these two and it begs the question of why. We know Vivi is special, that she's a Straw Hat. She appears in the banner of the official YouTube page. She was always included in the string of Animal Theater covers between cover arcs. Her Vivre Card indicates her as a Straw Hat. So why was Smoker out of order here?
Beyond any of that - Smoker's entire character arc is centered on Luffy. Next to Sanks, he was the first character in the series to recognize Roger in Luffy. He abandoned his post to pursue Luffy into the Grand Line. He's not the guy to rise up to challenge the top-brass and reform the Marines from within. He said as much when he saw the news of Fujitora confronting Sakazuki. But more than that, reforming the Marines and dealing with internal injustice is not Smoker's goal. Smoker's goal is taking down specifically Luffy. Koby is the young idealistic Marine intent on reforming the organization from within. He's the one who stood up to Akainu during the Battle of Marineford. He's the one who dreams of becoming a Marine Admiral. He was the one who was trained by Roger's Marine rival Monkey D. Garp. Smoker is not the Garp to Luffy's Roger. Koby is the Garp to Luffy's Roger. He's the one who believes in the system / structure of the Marines and the proper dispensation of justice while still playing by the rules.
Smoker told his superiors to eat shit. He left his post in Logue Town. He leads a crew of scoundrels at G5 who are more like pirates than Marines. Smoker's fundamental flaw is his rigid view of good and evil evenly parsing between Marine and Pirate. Smoker seems to have some very deep rooted hang-up with Pirates. Despite the fact that he has pursued Luffy all this time, they have never really met as enemies in the Grand Line. Both of the two major arcs in which Smoker appeared, he ended up as Luffy's ally. Conveniently, both times, the Word Government sanctioned agents they were fighting happened to be former pirates, so Smoker wasn't forced to confront the rigidity of his worldview. Even when Vergo, his commanding officer, was revealed to be affiliated with Caesar and Doflamingo, Smoker simply shifted Vergo into the Pirate category rather than acknowledge him as an evil Marine.
The thing is, Smoker's wrong. Koby and Garp may believe in the Marines, but seem to have a more nuanced understanding of morality and justice. Smoker is right that Luffy is the successor to Roger, but wrong to believe this is a bad thing or represents a moral evil. The world needs a Pirate King.
The end of Punk Hazard setup a change of some kind for Smoker. Kuzan told him there are other ways to pursue justice and that's leading somewhere. Luffy also told Smoker they'll settle things once and for all the next time they meet. Smoker has been pushing Tashigi to make decisions for herself and be a bold leader on her own without deferring to him all the time or following every one of his orders. I think Oda has set up the two parting ways in a manner which forces Tashigi to make her own decisions of what she will do and who she will follow. Kuzan's words are likely to catalyze some type of change in Smoker's allegiance or alignment and a reevaluation in some way of what it means for him to pursue justice. And he and Luffy will clash at least one more time - the next time they meet.
Smoker and Tashigi left PunK Hazard with the kids experimented on Caeasar to deliver them to Vegapunk. We saw them en route a couple times - after Dressrosa, and in a cover story arc. But despite the fact that most Marines were seen during the Reverie, Smoker and Tashigi were nowhere to be found. This indicates they're still with Vegapunk and leads me to suspect they'll meet the Straw Hats when / if they voyage to Vegapunk's location.
Smoker isn't the guy who's going to rise to the rank of Admiral and challenge the status quo. It's not his nature - he's not willing to play nice enough to achieve that rank. He only ascended to the rank of Vice Admiral by taking an outpost at G5 in a wild region of the New World where he's largely separated from the top brass of the Marines. Not to mention, Fujitora is already shaking things up in a way Smoker admits he couldn't and Koby is the young idealist who dreams of holding the title of Admiral. If Koby is Luffy's, 'Marine Admiral', where does that leave Smoker? What is the reason Oda has pulled this character through the story for 900 chapters? Smoker's sense of justice, his attitude toward superiors, etc. is inherently similar to the Straw Hats. He bucks the rules at every turn and pursues justice in his own way and fights for the side he believes is right, regardless of title or rank. But at the end of the day, he always re-classifies those who do wrong as pirates. Smoker has a singular fundamental flaw - his hangup with the name 'pirate' which prevents him from recognizing Luffy as the 'hero' the world needs right now.
So what I think needs to happen for Smoker to join is a (tragic) flashback explaining the origin of his hatred for pirates and an enemy who finally breaks the rigidity of his worldview. I suspect Borsalino ('Uncle' Kizaru), given his affiliation with Vegapunk, and the role CP0 seemingly play in shaping the Underworld of the New World (I even suspect Trebol to be a Cipher Pol agent sent to radicalize young Doffy and mold him into an underworld broker), could be a prominent player in the underworld. Luffy and Smoker will settle things the next time they meet. Smoker really stopped being a threat or rival to Luffy in any way as early as Punk Hazard. Once it became clear Luffy could regularly combat logia users through armament Haki, Smoker's biggest advantage was mitigated. But since then, Luffy has fought Doflamingo, Katakuri, and Kaido / Big Mom, advanced his mastery of Haki to new levels, deployed Gear 4, and ascended to the title of 'Emperor'. Sure, maybe after meeting Vegapunk Smoker has learned to awaken his power and will give Luffy a fight. Even Usopp was able to give Luffy a good fight. But at the end of the day, Smoker isn't a threat to Luffy anymore. He's not even a threat to the strongest members of the crew anymore like Zoro, Sanji, and Jinbei. So what is the purpose of their conflict and in Smoker's pursuit of Luffy?
What happens if Smoker learns a Marine Admiral, raised up within the Marines, never associated with Piracy in any way, is fundamentally corrupt? What if Smoker learns the Marines can't serve justice because the institution they serve is fundamentally unjust? Koby would fight even harder to achieve his dream, become an Admiral, and reshape things from within. But that's not who Smoker is, nor is reforming the Marines consistent with his primary motivating desire. What change in Smoker's allegiance did his encounter with Kuzan foreshadow? What decision will Kuzan's words catalyze? There are other (better) ways to pursue justice. Revoutionaries? Maybe, but like reforming the Marines from within, it would be a significant departure from Smoker's quest until this point. Smoker's quest has centered on Luffy. You might also say, 'what about Sword? couldn't he join Sword?' Sure. Maybe. But what is Sword about? Marine intelligence gathered primarily through infiltration of Pirate Crews, like X. Drake. Kuzan is already working with Teach, though whether or not he's part of Sword remains in question. Shanks has his own thing going on with the Celestial Dragons. Kaido is going down this arc and Big Mom is a wildcard, but her organization was already infiltrated by at least Stussy. But there's a new Emperor on the rise named Monkey D. Luffy. I'm not saying with any degree of certainty that Smoker will infilitrate the crew as a mission for Sword before turning coat and joining the Straw Hats in earnest, though the possibility has crossed my mind. A genuine traitor in the Straw Hats' midst (even if he does become a true ally before long) is an interesting potential at least. And it would also make sense to a degree that as Luffy ascends in status, he would be subjected to the same tactics and pressures used by the World Government and Marines against the reigning Emperors.
But importantly, Smoker's quest centers on Luffy. His entire character arc centers on Luffy. His next phase in life, whether that's committing to a life of piracy, advancing his rank in the Marines, joining the revolutionaries, or infiltrating a pirate crew undercover as an agent of SWORD, must be similarly centered on Luffy rather than the abstract concept of justice for it to remain consistent with the way his character has been written until this point. I'd argue that this eliminates a good number of possibilities. The fact that Smoker has been in the story for so long without a clear purpose should immediately beg some questions.
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I still have my dream that Yamato, Carrot or whoever can be left behind for the glorious return of Vivi.
Vivi >>> all of them by a huge margin
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I still have my dream that Yamato, Carrot or whoever can be left behind for the glorious return of Vivi.
Vivi >>> all of them by a huge margin
I'm pretty solidly convinced on Yamato's chances, but I'm right there with you on Vivi coming back - my guess is she meets up with the crew on Elbaf.
Had my theories since she reappeared post-Dressrosa, and the Reverie arc and Wano's between-Act interludes have only strengthened them. Looking forward to the inevitable post-Wano Reverie flashback to get the full story of what went down after we cut away.
Without love, it cannot be seen.
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I'm pretty solidly convinced on Yamato's chances, but I'm right there with you on Vivi coming back - my guess is she meets up with the crew on Elbaf.
Had my theories since she reappeared post-Dressrosa, and the Reverie arc and Wano's between-Act interludes have only strengthened them. Looking forward to the inevitable post-Wano Reverie flashback to get the full story of what went down after we cut away.
Well but I think only 1 more will join… So either it will be Yamato or Vivi getting back on ship in my opinion
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I suppose the bar was set quite high when it was established an 11 year old kid defeated Zoro many times, even though Zoro could defeat adults. Tama could have easily been written to be a fighter like her, yet for some reason she wasn't.
To put it in to perspective, since Kuina, Oda hasn't had a female fighter that could arguably beat Zoro until Big Mom and then again with Yamato.
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I'm not sure if it was speculation or if he actually said it somewhere, but the thought is he doesn't want to do any cool ninjas because he doesn't want to step on Naruto's toes. And that's also why he waited so long to do the Japan arc.
If Naruto had just been a 4 year quick hit instead of a 15 year long runner that started around the same time it might be different. Plus he and Kishi are friends.
He never speaks of Kubo or Bleach though…
I knew about the whole depicting ninjas conflict cuz of Naruto and Kishi being his friend but its been done for spool long now and Boruto doesn't count. Just wanted one ninja from Oda even if its not a part of the crew. Oh well
LOL @ Kubo and Bleach. No real angle for Oda to bring shinigamis in to the story especially since he barely kills and swordsman are free for everyone.
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I don't think age is the biggest issue facing Tama, it's techniques. I think if Tama actually had ninja powers and could look out for herself in a crisis she would have a much stronger chance. As is, she is just a girl whose powers is the ability to make an army that can take care ofeverything for her. It makes her perfect for a potential fleet ally down the line but unless they can find a way to bring her allies with her (or at the very least Komainu) she's going to have a hard time. This isn't Pokemon.
Also 4 for the East Blue, 4 for the Grand Line and 4 for the New World. Add Luffy and you get the Straw Hats 13, let's go! :P
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Ah, yes, the child with weird powers that would force Oda to be creative and interesting with how she contributes to the remaining story would be far worse than the Ogre who just swings their big stick really really hard and is really really tough to hurt.
I'm joking, but I do find Yamato's displays of techniques to be pretty uninteresting or forgettable so far. I know there's that ice beam too, but it all feels pretty lacking compared to your average strawhat fighting skillset. I'm probably forgetting stuff but seems significantly better suited for a supportive character that's gonna go off and make their own major accomplishments that we don't have to see the specific fight details of.
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Have you actually faced much passive aggression for Tama?
Cause honestly I've always thought that outside the age thing the arguments for Tama are really good. I don't agree with it but I think they're sound and make a lot of sense. Hence outside people driving with the age argument I cant imagine that you've gotten much aggressive pushback.
But feel free to correct me if that's wrong.
For me I always appreciate a decent case based on the material even if things don't turnout as guessed same with the Sukiyaki/Tengu theory.Didn't really want to answer this, but also don't want you to think I'm ignoring you since I didn't quote you on the last message. I've faced worse than passive aggression because of Tama. :getlost:
Tama's even younger, and it's a plot point that the grunts in this arc are notably tougher than the grunts from previous arcs.
Also, Tama's devil fruit is hyper-specialized for the story's current situation.
Tama's power would come in handy in almost all the arcs of One Piece, not just for Onigashima, there are some special beasts and animals in every arc, heck even strong world, imagine Tama in strong world or impel down :ninja:
I'm not sure if it was speculation or if he actually said it somewhere, but the thought is he doesn't want to do any cool ninjas because he doesn't want to step on Naruto's toes. And that's also why he waited so long to do the Japan arc.
If Naruto had just been a 4 year quick hit instead of a 15 year long runner that started around the same time it might be different. Plus he and Kishi are friends.
He never speaks of Kubo or Bleach though…
Which is the reason why I think Tama is the last one, Oda been dragging it out until Naruto ended, and now he is finally allowed to have a very own ninja in the crew. Of course she has to become a proper one first… which brings me to a new theory.
Forget Shinobu and other time/age up shenanigans. Big Mom is the one who will power up Tama with her own very soul!
She did it to herself, so maybe she can do it permanently to Tama too? She could use the very last year or so of her lifespan and give it to her, redeeming herself and reconciling with Tama, if handled right it would be beautiful. -
Fact is… Oda doesn't really do "creative" with the battles anymore. Just think of what Usopp battles were and what are now.
It's all about overpowering the opponent and it might be visually engaging, but it's always very straightforward.Tama did well as long as wololoing beastmen could carry her, then she's been more a burden than anything.
And the age thing is not something to take lightly here. Shanks wasn't confident about bringing the wielder of the very important rubber fruit in his journey through noob den east blue because he was 7.
Taking an 8 yo with the puny kibidango power directly to the treacherous New World, were anybody with an haki level inferior to 9.000.is fish food doesn't sound really wise in comparison. -
Robin had 2 proper 1 vs 1 fights in the whole series, I'm sure he could be creative with one fight for Tama, Tama and her pets vs San Juan wolf for example.
Leave the 1 on 1s to Luffy, Zoro and Sanji, after Jinbe I don't think there is really a need for another top tier fighter, focus on the crews dynamics and slice of life moments instead which Tama would excel at. -
Agree with Solid. If it not for Tama, the alliance would be ganked by Grifters. It would be very bad.
What Tama did is really important to the raid, just like what Yams did against dear daddy and now. By following their actions, we also know about their motivation of fighting, their dreams etc.
This bring me to another important aspect: they DID something important in this arc. Thus, we as readers know about their abilities, or what is so special about them if they are to join. Because they're on screen doing important stuffs.
Not unline a certain someone that is ALWAYS missing and when we FINALLY see them, they're given a very minimal screen time or dialogue.
Who I've talking about? Why, Denjiro of course!!
(No, it's Radish or something, I forget because she's always missing)
"No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.." - Venat
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Even Kuina admitted that Zoro was going to completely overtake her as soon as he hit puberty. If she'd lived another two or three years Zoro would have started winning every fight.
And both of them were only holding their own in the weakest area in the world with the worst fighters.
It sucks that in a world of special techniques and devil fruits and haki that they felt this was the case but… raw strength would have started overtaking her skill pretty soon.
I mean, Kuina was conflicted about things in the first place due to her father telling her that women are weaker than men, so I'm not sure how much his claim should be validated in that case regardless of how Zoro himself turned out.
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Man needs to chill it with his hateboner
It's not? I'm only stating that Carrot is ALWAYS missing screentime and ppl are skirting around this?
Like, the fact of Carrot missing actions somehow increasing her chance of joining, while Tama and Yams' screentimes are always NOT ENOUGH?
"No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.." - Venat
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It's not? I'm only stating that Carrot is ALWAYS missing screentime and ppl are skirting around this?
Like, the fact of Carrot missing actions somehow increasing her chance of joining, while Tama and Yams' screentimes are always NOT ENOUGH?
Yep, fair game in that if lack of panel time in the present counts against Tama and Yamato, then it puts it into question if a lack of panel time counts against Carrot too, regardless of what happened in past arcs.
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Carrot's whole deal is centered around waiting and being ready for her moment to come. If it doesn't, it doesn't, but I've waited this long, might as well see it to the end.
Like the Avatar? / Like the Miis?Dragalia Lost ID: 97617932505
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Agree with Solid. If it not for Tama, the alliance would be ganked by Grifters. It would be very bad.
But doesn't it show how arc-specific Tamas powers are?
Don't get me wrong, what Tama did was very important for the raid and reduced the number of enemies significantly. It would be foolish to disregard the impact of Tamas action on the future success of the raid. But that's it. Tamas powers are really useful for this arc. If Oda wants to use an animal as a supporter of the strawhats - well Nami, Luffy and Chopper did a quite good job at taming animals so far (and that without grey-brainwashing-letting-feelings-of-attachment-grow or however Tamas powers work).
And Solid does have a point by saying in any arc are animals which Tama could tame to fight with them.
But can somebody name one animal which in a serious fight didn't get fodderized?
Because of the top of my head, I can't remember any animal (and with that I mean a real-world animal and not something like an artificial dragon like the two back in PH) in the manga being shown as a dangerous opponent. If I remember it correct no animal has ever been portraited as a real threat in a serious fight. The big ones looked impressive, got a few good hits in but still end up getting beaten pretty easy.
So fighting alongside an animal won't help Tama much. She would still need more fighting prowess herself to stand a chance in a serious fight. Or does anybody want to see the probably only serious one-on-one fight of Tama to be a gag fight????Of course, it would be something new if an animal turns out to be an actual threat and Tama could tame it for her fight. Oda has never done something like this. But after more than a thousand chapters the chances seem to be slim for something like this to happen.
But that's just my opinion on the matter…
Originally Posted by Cyan D. Funk in Spoilerthreat from Chapter 579
"Did I fire six shots or only five? Well, do you feel lucky punk?"
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But doesn't it show how arc-specific Tamas powers are?
Don't get me wrong, what Tama did was very important for the raid and reduced the number of enemies significantly. It would be foolish to disregard the impact of Tamas action on the future success of the raid. But that's it.Tamas powers are really useful for this arc. If Oda wants to use an animal as a supporter of the strawhats - well Nami, Luffy and Chopper did a quite good job at taming animals so far (and that without grey-brainwashing-letting-feelings-of-attachment-grow or however Tamas powers work).
And Solid does have a point by saying in any arc are animals which Tama could tame to fight with them.
But can somebody name one animal which in a serious fight didn't get fodderized?
Because of the top of my head, I can't remember any animal (and with that I mean a real-world animal and not something like an artificial dragon like the two back in PH) in the manga being shown as a dangerous opponent. If I remember it correct no animal has ever been portraited as a real threat in a serious fight. The big ones looked impressive, got a few good hits in but still end up getting beaten pretty easy.
So fighting alongside an animal won't help Tama much. She would still need more fighting prowess herself to stand a chance in a serious fight. Or does anybody want to see the probably only serious one-on-one fight of Tama to be a gag fight????Of course, it would be something new if an animal turns out to be an actual threat and Tama could tame it for her fight. Oda has never done something like this. But after more than a thousand chapters the chances seem to be slim for something like this to happen.
But that's just my opinion on the matter…
I don't understand why people are always so narrow minded when it comes to character abilities when Oda consistently has played loose on what anyone is able to do at any given time. Usopp is a perfect example of that. What I mean with that is the limit of Tama's ability is basically limited only to how strong the animals she has access to are. And we know there are decently powerful animals in this world, Luffy trained on such an island for 2 years and in theory there isn't really a cap on how powerful Oda could make an animal.
Really at most the one thing that is somewhat hard to swallow is the logistics of Tama traveling with animals if she were to be a strawhat it would be similarly awkward as the suggestions of Shirahoshi just swimming alongside the Sunny.
Really the point I'm mostly talking against here is kind of falls under a similar umbrella as the arguments that Carrot has a boring fighting style/it's not unique etc. The nature of these arguments is mostly limited by the imagination of people making them and assuming that there is somehow a limit on what Oda can come up with to make them useless/interesting etc. But the thing is powers in One Piece are often just that convenient and scale to whatever they need to be.
To a lesser extent they also remind me of the doubt with Brook being another swordsman and well look what Oda did over time to not make Brook feel redundant to Zoro. -
But doesn't it show how arc-specific Tamas powers are?
Don't get me wrong, what Tama did was very important for the raid and reduced the number of enemies significantly. It would be foolish to disregard the impact of Tamas action on the future success of the raid. But that's it. Tamas powers are really useful for this arc. If Oda wants to use an animal as a supporter of the strawhats - well Nami, Luffy and Chopper did a quite good job at taming animals so far (and that without grey-brainwashing-letting-feelings-of-attachment-grow or however Tamas powers work).
And Solid does have a point by saying in any arc are animals which Tama could tame to fight with them.
But can somebody name one animal which in a serious fight didn't get fodderized?
Because of the top of my head, I can't remember any animal (and with that I mean a real-world animal and not something like an artificial dragon like the two back in PH) in the manga being shown as a dangerous opponent. If I remember it correct no animal has ever been portraited as a real threat in a serious fight. The big ones looked impressive, got a few good hits in but still end up getting beaten pretty easy.
So fighting alongside an animal won't help Tama much. She would still need more fighting prowess herself to stand a chance in a serious fight. Or does anybody want to see the probably only serious one-on-one fight of Tama to be a gag fight????Of course, it would be something new if an animal turns out to be an actual threat and Tama could tame it for her fight. Oda has never done something like this. But after more than a thousand chapters the chances seem to be slim for something like this to happen.
But that's just my opinion on the matter…
That totally depends on who the animals are set up to fight against, if she is fighting someone like an admiral, yonkou, or yonkous right hand men, then most animals would get "fodderised" but so would most characters too.
Animals that has been portrayed as threats; Nola, Sphinx, various venomous animals, Luffys training partners during the timeskip, Kraken, Mountain God, Randolph, ZUNESHA etc.I still think she actually needs to become a kunoichi and being able to dispatch a few goons by herself, just like can do.
And she also needs a serious boost in popularity, and a ninja power-up would certainly help with that.
Big mom's soul infused into Tama, becoming the Tamama or Big Tam, lets go
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Also 4 for the East Blue, 4 for the Grand Line and 4 for the New World. Add Luffy and you get the Straw Hats 13, let's go! :P
THIS IS THE WAY!
Also for others wondering, just like the previous 8 (Sanji, Robin, Brook), the next 4 don't have to actually be from the New World just show up in the arc at that half of the grand line.
@Marcotty:Ah, yes, the child with weird powers that would force Oda to be creative and interesting with how she contributes to the remaining story would be far worse than the Ogre who just swings their big stick really really hard and is really really tough to hurt.
I'm joking, but I do find Yamato's displays of techniques to be pretty uninteresting or forgettable so far. I know there's that ice beam too, but it all feels pretty lacking compared to your average strawhat fighting skillset. I'm probably forgetting stuff but seems significantly better suited for a supportive character that's gonna go off and make their own major accomplishments that we don't have to see the specific fight details of.
You say this as if all of the other strawhats fighting skill sets are unique and special.
They are not. Zoro and Brook, Luffy, Chopper, Sanji, Jimbe and Franky, Usopp and Franky.
Yamato fits in just fine among that crew's list of skill sets.
@Alfiere:Fact is… Oda doesn't really do "creative" with the battles anymore. Just think of what Usopp battles were and what are now.
It's all about overpowering the opponent and it might be visually engaging, but it's always very straightforward.Usopp's "fights" were never creative (neither were Nami's).
They're mostly based around him being a coward (or his opponents being a bit dumb). Other times he was support.
I'd much rather see fights like the ones Sanji, Jimbe, and Zoro get than the comic relief fights
Bit disappointing to me Usopp still hasn't got in to a duel whether like a western or otherwise. No sniper fights (guess I gotta wait for Van Auger for that). No shootouts. No gun-fu opponents.
@Solid:I don't think there is really a need for another top tier fighter, focus on the crews dynamics and slice of life moments instead which Tama would excel at.
This is wrong. So wrong.
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Robin had 2 proper 1 vs 1 fights in the whole series, I'm sure he could be creative with one fight for Tama, Tama and her pets vs San Juan wolf for example.
Leave the 1 on 1s to Luffy, Zoro and Sanji, after Jinbe I don't think there is really a need for another top tier fighter, focus on the crews dynamics and slice of life moments instead which Tama would excel at.Luffy got his ass kicked by Kaidou twice, Zoro had to use mink medicine before struggling to find a way to beat King, Nami and Usopp were getting their asses kicked by Ulti until Big Mom came along, Sanji was in trouble until Robin came along, and Chopper came to point of getting into a struggle with Queen until Sanji arrived. Even Robin, Franky, and Jinbe being more straight forward in their fights got smacked around quite a bit and couldn't really get a firm focus on fighting them until Tama made her command. This is all on top of how they don't really have much experience properly going up against Marine Admirals and the like in the first place. Can we really say we don't need more fire power when keying in that, as well as Blackbeard's forces and Im's forces?
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Luffy got his ass kicked by Kaidou twice, Zoro had to use mink medicine before struggling to find a way to beat King, Nami and Usopp were getting their asses kicked by Ulti until Big Mom came along, Sanji was in trouble until Robin came along, and Chopper came to point of getting into a struggle with Queen until Sanji arrived. Even Robin, Franky, and Jinbe being more straight forward in their fights got smacked around quite a bit and couldn't really get a firm focus on fighting them until Tama made her command. This is all on top of how they don't really have much experience properly going up against Marine Admirals and the like in the first place. Can we really say we don't need more fire power when keying in that, as well as Blackbeard's forces and Im's forces?
Theyre about to defeat two yonkous, it doesnt get much harder than this, and they still have a ton of allies to help them out during the end game. Grand fleet, the revos, all the countries and other character they befriended, and the likes of Garp, Shanks and other supernovas are still possible end game allies, as well as Yamato himself and everyone else from Wano. So no, I don't think fire power is a factor.
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Luffy's crew is even smaller than Roger's and its supposed to surpass them, for such a compressed crew, it makes sense to have several of them being really strong.
Even Nami is now arguably one hell of a powerhouse with Zeus in her hands.
And they're going up there to wreck Mariejoa eventually, they do need power, a lot.
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Luffy's crew is even smaller than Roger's and its supposed to surpass them, for such a compressed crew, it makes sense to have several of them being really strong.
Even Nami is now arguably one hell of a powerhouse with Zeus in her hands.
And they're going up there to wreck Mariejoa eventually, they do need power, a lot.
Maybe incredibly soon seeing as how Sabo was just captured
And with Zoro out of commission because of Choppers super medicine there gonna need all the help they can get
I still think X Drake is gonna travel with them and help them out because of some code of honor he has, and help them sneak in to Mary geoise (well try to sneak in lol) because he knows secret passages as a marine, or maybe puts fake sea stone hand cuffs on Luffy and acts like he captured him, or does that with Caribou who’s carrying everyone inside him….. who knows
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Just throwing my idea out there.
Momo and Tama will join.
It changes the dynamic of the crew. We have Monster Trio, Weak trio and Mature Trio( Brook, Robin, Franky)
They can have an apprentice type roles and…
make a new trio with new recruit Jimbei. Like a master/apprentice group
Momo and Tama would become great support/assist types since the weak Trio will move up from that.
And Momo (sky) Tama (land) and Jimbei (sea) would be a great asset in any battle.
