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    Chapter 1,043: Let's Face Death Together!!!

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    • Xelloss
      Xelloss @Greg
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      @Greg:

      The crux of it all was when Lucky whipped out the hand-drawn picture of the GGF.

      If that's believed to be manga physics, it's a silly gag. But…if it's not just that...why did they have a drawing of it just sitting around? At this point, we know that they deliberately went after an escort to get it (which was still some time before the events at the bar) so it's not impossible to think that they had depictions of the fruit to know what they were going after and Lucky had his/a sketchbook with the old picture in it nearby.

      This was first mentioned to me over a decade ago at a One Piece bar in Osaka and I kinda politely smiled my way through it and that's where I left the idea until Who's-Who brought it up and I thought, "Holy s***...they might'vd been right..."

      Personally I don't have any problem with the GGF being special for some reason. It makes perfect sense that, if Shanks of all people went after it, then the fruit must have some hidden significance. I have also been thinking myself Lucky Roo's drawing of the GGF was an early hint that the Red Hair Pirates were looking for that precise devil fruit (of course, I only thought about this in the last week or so).

      The real problem is understanding why the WG waited 1000+ chapters to act against the current owner of the GGF, if they needed to prevent its awakening no matter what. Unless, as some people speculated, they knew of the fruit's connection with Joy Boy, but they had no idea that the fruit granted rubber powers. I think Oda stated that in the OP world there is a devil fruit encyclopedia with pictures of devil fruits and an explanation of the powers they grant, but it's not complete: so maybe the GGF is not in the encyclopedia, and the 5 old geezers only learned recently that Luffy had eaten the special fruit (because Shanks told them?)

      Why doesn't this theory work? Because it would seem that all Who's Who needed to identify Luffy as the person who had eaten that fruit was knowing that Luffy had rubber powers. So, if he knew that, why did the Gorosei not know? I really can't imagine how Oda will explain this point.

      NOT EVEN CLOSE, SIR!

      King Cannon 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • King Cannon
        King Cannon @Xelloss
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        @Xelloss:

        Why doesn't this theory work? Because it would seem that all Who's Who needed to identify Luffy as the person who had eaten that fruit was knowing that Luffy had rubber powers. So, if he knew that, why did the Gorosei not know? I really can't imagine how Oda will explain this point.

        Who's-Who could have overheard the fruit's new name (Gomu Gomu in this case) from Shanks himself, maybe after being defeated.

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        • Ivotas
          Ivotas @Monquito
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          @Monquito:

          Its been like a month since Shanks visit, this is likely the worst use of the word 'immediately' I ever seen.

          Didn't they just say that they were busy with the events of this years Reverie and also that they didn't expect for the conflict to go this route? While I myself consider the Five Elder Stars super incompetent on taking this long to actually move on Luffy ever since they first declared they would not let him roam free anymore, a one month delay in this current situation is something that sounds less like a problem.

          @King:

          Who's-Who could have overheard the fruit's new name (Gomu Gomu in this case) from Shanks himself, maybe after being defeated.

          That still doesn't explain how the Five Elder Stars didn't know Luffy has rubber powers while Who's Who does.

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          • Greg
            Greg
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            @King Cannon
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            From Robby

            Yes, we remember the WHo's WHo diatribe of plot dump, and we were upset 6 months ago about all those implications and hoped that Oda wasn't really going down the route of the ordinary common fruit being super secret special.

            From Xelloss

            The real problem is understanding why the WG waited 1000+ chapters to act against the current owner of the GGF,

            I don't disagree. It's an extremely odd choice for them to have made. Naturally it all depends on the rationalization which we're all waiting on with bated breath.

            That's why I've been trying to look at it from Oda's side and came up with some of the rationalizations I've offered that also fit the story. I don't think any single one is ideal, but they're certainly passable.

            If Oda manages to pull a 'CP-0 comes in and upsets everything.' then I'll applaud him. Because that was completely unexpected for me, and exciting.

            I think a lot of this depends on IM's 'plans'. Since the Five Stars are acting on IM's will, if IM had reason to stay their hand, it makes sense.

            If the Five Stars have any humanity left (which is something I've championed since the tears at Ohara) they may have been waiting to see where things went and Shanks' meeting may have something to do with it.

            The weakest low-level arguments are simply black and white views of their 'villainy'.

            Were they waiting for him to die? If so, this suggests even stronger that the one who eats the fruit isn't automatically 'the one' by default.
            Were they avoiding putting attention on him as possible in order to hide the nuclear football in plain sight without activation codes? If so, this makes even more sense for them downplaying Alabasta.
            Were they only recently made aware of this history? Not likely in my view but certain information regarding 'activation' may have recently been brought to light.

            As it stands I understand the frustration, but the pathway to explain this in a reasonable manner exists if we accept that these characters probably aren't just black hat/white hat.

            And yes, it could still be a fumble. But at least it hasn't come out of nowhere.

            No matter where you go, there you are.

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            • Cockycent
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              Yuck, any inch of redemption for the Gorosei would be trash. I hate them

              Also, even if Oda pulls off something completely different from every single assumption made, nobody will want to tuck their reaction or feelings back. Its the way fans work. OP is officially power of friendship/chosen one/nen after death/Mazoku blood/somebody planned it all along territory w/o getting the full rundown.

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              • Monquito
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                Oda didnt properly justify Sabo's absense in MF either.

                So yeah, I'm doubting about the existence of a credible reason why the GM didnt act a lot earlier.

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                • astagadragon
                  astagadragon @Dany
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                  @Dany:

                  Because it's not just a rubber power. That has clearly been implied, but I guess people will deny this to the very end.

                  It is implied that Gomu-gomu's awakening is not merely a power boost but it has other implications. Those implications are what the Gorosei afraid of.

                  "No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise. Henceforth, he shall walk.." - Venat

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                  • theackwardstation
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                    We won't see the Gorousei's perspective on this GGF stuff for a long time (maybe never), so there's no reason to rationalize it yet only for the justification to be another thing completely at the end… good or bad. For now, it seems they just didn't know something for whatever reason.

                    Chances are that Oda will just give a mediocre excuse that will be sufficient on a surface level, but kinda stupid. Once in a while, this is par for the course... after all, the big question is why don't they make a marine base at Twin Cape to arrest every rookie pirate crew coming to the Grand Line? A lot of their problems would be solved this way.

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                    • Robby
                      Robby @Monquito
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                      @Monquito:

                      Oda didnt properly justify Sabo's absense in MF either.

                      He had amnesia at the time and the revos had no reason to commit resources to go save a random Whitebeard crewmember. That tracks for me as a fairly clean reason.

                      The behind the scenes is likely something like Sabo just plain didn't exist earlier than that and he was put in for Oda to soften the blow a little after the fact, similar to the Mini-Merry…. but it still works way way better than the clunkier retrofits.

                      @theackwardstation:

                      Chances are that Oda will just give a mediocre excuse that will be sufficient on a surface level, but kinda stupid. Once in a while, this is par for the course… after all, the big question is why don't they make a marine base at Twin Cape to arrest every rookie pirate crew coming to the Grand Line? A lot of their problems would be solved this way.

                      Because that's a good system if you do it at the very start of the problem. But decades in there's already pirates out there and big threats they have check and counter balance. Whole reason they needed the Warlord system is to do cleanup on little pirates and keep emperors at bay in theory. . Doing that wouldn't, for example, have done anything to prevent Arlong from waltzing into town and terrorizing a village for a decade. And notably, Arlong is even a pirate they had caught before!

                      Even the Warlord systemm was obviously massively flawed given that most of them used their government given immunity to do evil plotting, and they've scrapped the system the minute they had something better to replace it.

                      –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                      @Greg:

                      Were they waiting for him to die? If so, this suggests even stronger that the one who eats the fruit isn't automatically 'the one' by default.
                      Were they avoiding putting attention on him as possible in order to hide the nuclear football in plain sight without activation codes? If so, this makes even more sense for them downplaying Alabasta.
                      Were they only recently made aware of this history? Not likely in my view but certain information regarding 'activation' may have recently been brought to light.

                      Oh sure, have reasonable explanations.

                      But if its one of those things how will we vent at the series we clearly hate now and don't enjoy in any way?

                      theackwardstation Ivotas 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • theackwardstation
                        theackwardstation @Robby
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                        @Robby:

                        Because that's a good system if you do it at the very start of the problem. But decades in there's already pirates out there and big threats they have check and counter balance. Whole reason they needed the Warlord system is to do cleanup on little pirates and keep emperors at bay in theory. . Doing that wouldn't, for example, have done anything to prevent Arlong from waltzing into town and terrorizing a village for a decade. And notably, Arlong is even a pirate they had caught before!

                        Even the Warlord systemm was obviously massively flawed given that most of them used their government given immunity to do evil plotting, and they've scrapped the system the minute they had something better to replace it.

                        You're saying that placing a marine base at Twin Cape won't erase ALL the piracy – and I agree with that, of course it wouldn't, for many reasons. But, still, it would be a super effective policy to reduce the number of pirates and control their movement across oceans -- and that's especially important because getting to the Grand Line is what puts pirates from the Blues on the path to Lodestar and Laugh Tale.

                        But, well, they're not that smart… better for the story.

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                        • K
                          Kizuchan
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                          I get the feeling this at least won't fundamentally change Luffy's character.

                          OP hasn't really done this with any main characters, at least. The closest I can think of is actually the shift between Ms. Wednesday and Vivi, but she was still a side character and we barely knew her character back in Whiskey Peak.

                          And maybe Robin, but that's similar to Vivi where we didn't get to know her that much before she 'changed'.

                          I actually think if Joyboy is another entity, the narrative can go the direction where Luffy actually doesn't like it since freedom is so important to him. Make this whole 'fate' thing something to be fought against.

                          Also, you don't have to redeem the Gorosei to give them understandable motives. You can have villains with more nuanced views than that, but still keep them as villains. 'Cool motive, still evil' and all that.

                          They might think there is no other way to what they are doing, but that doesn't automatically have to redeem them.

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                          • Ivotas
                            Ivotas @Robby
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                            @Robby:

                            He had amnesia at the time and the revos had no reason to commit resources to go save a random Whitebeard crewmember. That tracks for me as a fairly clean reason.

                            Perhaps Monquito meant that amnesia is a weak plot device when retconning something. Still I agree that it is a valid reason, as cheap a plot device it might be.

                            The behind the scenes is likely something like Sabo just plain didn't exist earlier than that and he was put in for Oda to soften the blow a little after the fact, similar to the Mini-Merry…. but it still works way way better than the clunkier retrofits.

                            I seem to be out of the loop here. What fact about the Mini-Merry are we talking about here?

                            Because that's a good system if you do it at the very start of the problem. But decades in there's already pirates out there and big threats they have check and counter balance. Whole reason they needed the Warlord system is to do cleanup on little pirates and keep emperors at bay in theory. . Doing that wouldn't, for example, have done anything to prevent Arlong from waltzing into town and terrorizing a village for a decade. And notably, Arlong is even a pirate they had caught before!

                            That makes sense. But now that I'm thinking about it, wouldn't it make sense to at least have one of the big branches (the ones that go from G1 to G9 perhaps?) be close to the Twin Capes?

                            Even the Warlord systemm was obviously massively flawed given that most of them used their government given immunity to do evil plotting, and they've scrapped the system the minute they had something better to replace it.

                            The warlord system as a whole is actually ridiculous when you think about it and I'm not talking about it being a deal with the devil, that might come to bite you in the ass. I'm talking about it's entire purpose. Unless I was reading some sketchy translations, didn't the WG claim that they shouldn't disband the warlord system because they need them to send them after the Emperors? If that's a proper translation then we've never actually seen any indications that any warlord went after any of the emprerors. What's more, that entire thing doesn't make sense as the Marineford conflict proves that the combined forces of the Marine HQ and the warlord can pretty much match one emperor and his troops. Also the emperors as we've seen them now fully fledged out don't seem to be the types to be impressed by anyone they consider to be below them. Meaning the warlords are kinda pointless as I don't see anyone of them challenging an emperor by themselves and having them all fight together alongside the WG/Marine is something that doesn't even work out that well in the first place (Jinbe and Hancock refused with one just joining because she needed to get Luffy to Impel Down and Teach outright using the summon to rise to power).

                            Sure it was nice to talk and theorize about the balance of the three great powers when it was mostly abstract and we didn't really know the specifics of it. But once everything got revealed it really was an absolutely pointless thing that benefitted only the pirates in question themselves.

                            DatYute Robby 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • DatYute
                              DatYute @Ivotas
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                              @Ivotas:

                              Perhaps Monquito meant that amnesia is a weak plot device when retconning something. Still I agree that it is a valid reason, as cheap a plot device it might be.

                              I seem to be out of the loop here. What fact about the Mini-Merry are we talking about here?

                              That makes sense. But now that I'm thinking about it, wouldn't it make sense to at least have one of the big branches (the ones that go from G1 to G9 perhaps?) be close to the Twin Capes?

                              The warlord system as a whole is actually ridiculous when you think about it and I'm not talking about it being a deal with the devil, that might come to bite you in the ass. I'm talking about it's entire purpose. Unless I was reading some sketchy translations, didn't the WG claim that they shouldn't disband the warlord system because they need them to send them after the Emperors? If that's a proper translation then we've never actually seen any indications that any warlord went after any of the emprerors. What's more, that entire thing doesn't make sense as the Marineford conflict proves that the combined forces of the Marine HQ and the warlord can pretty much match one emperor and his troops. Also the emperors as we've seen them now fully fledged out don't seem to be the types to be impressed by anyone they consider to be below them. Meaning the warlords are kinda pointless as I don't see anyone of them challenging an emperor by themselves and having them all fight together alongside the WG/Marine is something that doesn't even work out that well in the first place (Jinbe and Hancock refused with one just joining because she needed to get Luffy to Impel Down and Teach outright using the summon to rise to power).

                              Sure it was nice to talk and theorize about the balance of the three great powers when it was mostly abstract and we didn't really know the specifics of it. But once everything got revealed it really was an absolutely pointless thing that benefitted only the pirates in question themselves.

                              No, the warlord system is what allowed the world government to produce a martial force to equal 1 single emperor crew like you said. they were for events like the paramount war to help even the forces of the government with an emperors entire crew + allies. the world government needed a way to match the force of the emperors, which is why they would turn a blind eye to some obvious sketchy shit the warlords got up to.

                              the balance of power in the one piece world hasnt been shaken for decades simply because the 4 emperors and the world government(with the warlords) were all stuck in a stalemate. any of the factions challenging another is risky due to the fact that none are outright stronger than the others and it opens the door for a 3rd party to sneak in and get the upper hand after the others are done fighting(which we nearly saw in marineford with kaido going there to wreak havoc/ fight whitebeard). it's a delicate balance, and if the world government didn't have the warlords to pad their forces they wouldnt even be in the running compared to the 4 emperors.

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                              • D
                                Dany @astagadragon
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                                @astagadragon:

                                It is implied that Gomu-gomu's awakening is not merely a power boost but it has other implications. Those implications are what the Gorosei afraid of.

                                Yes? Obviously whatever ability the awakened fruit bestows is not something they would like to deal with considering the name change and connection to "Joy Boy".

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                                • Robby
                                  Robby @Ivotas
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                                  @Ivotas:

                                  I seem to be out of the loop here. What fact about the Mini-Merry are we talking about here?

                                  At the start of Thriller Bark Franky unveiled the little bonus Merry boat, and once of the characters (Usopp?) said something like "Merry came back as a lifeboat!"

                                  It wasn't explicit in that moment and it hasn't come up in-story, (But I think confirmed in an interview?) that Merry's spirit had moved into the new thing.

                                  It's not talking or moving on its own currently so I personally don't feel like it counts… but even without that implication it was most certainly put in there to be a case of "this beloved character died... but they have a sibling that is very similar that can also be loved to ease the blow."

                                  Ivotas S Barkworm 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Ivotas
                                    Ivotas @Robby
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                                    @Robby:

                                    At the start of Thriller Bark Franky unveiled the little bonus Merry boat, and once of the characters (Usopp?) said something like "Merry came back as a lifeboat!"

                                    It wasn't explicit in that moment and it hasn't come up in-story, (But I think confirmed in an interview?) that Merry's spirit had moved into the new thing.

                                    It's not talking or moving on its own currently so I personally don't feel like it counts… but even without that implication it was most certainly put in there to be a case of "this beloved character died... but they have a sibling that is very similar that can also be loved to ease the blow."

                                    Ah, that one. Yeah, I remember having issues with that as well. But I don't remember Oda saying anything in an interview so that's news to me. Thanks for the info.

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                                    • Robby
                                      Robby @Ivotas
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                                      @Ivotas:

                                      Sure it was nice to talk and theorize about the balance of the three great powers when it was mostly abstract and we didn't really know the specifics of it. But once everything got revealed it really was an absolutely pointless thing that benefitted only the pirates in question themselves.

                                      I think they were jsut dicussing potential positives and negatives there, not specifically saying they were going to send them out after them.

                                      Given what we know about all of them… I figured the purpose was mostly there to weed out pirates like Krieg that would be a problem... and to keep pirates like Mihawk from getting "bored" with the marines and going on a spree. Or to keep Hancock only attacking pirated. We know Jinbe in particular was a racially motivated choice, and Buggy they had to know was actually weak but had influence.

                                      And we don't know what Kuma's dealw as but he was apparently a total monster that then became a loyal dog so... Yeah it bit them in the ass with Crocodile and Doflamingo... but even Moria was mostly planning to build his army to go after other pirates with.

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                                      • S
                                        Sibersk Esto @Robby
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                                        @Robby:

                                        At the start of Thriller Bark Franky unveiled the little bonus Merry boat, and once of the characters (Usopp?) said something like "Merry came back as a lifeboat!"

                                        It wasn't explicit in that moment and it hasn't come up in-story, (But I think confirmed in an interview?) that Merry's spirit had moved into the new thing.

                                        It's not talking or moving on its own currently so I personally don't feel like it counts… but even without that implication it was most certainly put in there to be a case of "this beloved character died... but they have a sibling that is very similar that can also be loved to ease the blow."

                                        Did Mini Merry even have more than one appearance? That felt like a final tribute, not a replacement.

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                                        • Ivotas
                                          Ivotas @DatYute
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                                          @DatYute:

                                          No, the warlord system is what allowed the world government to produce a martial force to equal 1 single emperor crew like you said. they were for events like the paramount war to help even the forces of the government with an emperors entire crew + allies. the world government needed a way to match the force of the emperors, which is why they would turn a blind eye to some obvious sketchy shit the warlords got up to.

                                          the balance of power in the one piece world hasnt been shaken for decades simply because the 4 emperors and the world government(with the warlords) were all stuck in a stalemate. any of the factions challenging another is risky due to the fact that none are outright stronger than the others and it opens the door for a 3rd party to sneak in and get the upper hand after the others are done fighting(which we nearly saw in marineford with kaido going there to wreak havoc/ fight whitebeard). it's a delicate balance, and if the world government didn't have the warlords to pad their forces they wouldnt even be in the running compared to the 4 emperors.

                                          That's the exact thing that I think is actully a construct that only works in the WGs eyes. As we've seen with the emperors, they don't seem to be the guys to be stuck in a stalemate because the WG has the Marine HQ and the Warlords. They rather are in a stalemate amongsts themselves and don't seem to concern themselves much with the matters of anyone they consider below them.

                                          The one time an emperor actually decided to go against the WG the warlord system turned out not to work as intended, with one warlord (Jinbei) joining the opposing forces, one warlord (Hancock) refusing to help and only joining because of a completely unrelated matter and one warlord (Teach) using the entire situation to rise to power himself. Emperor vs Marine HQ+Warlord is the one thing that should justify the existence of the entire warlord system. And it was very flawed.

                                          Outside of that, the entire "send the warlords after the emperors" makes little to no sense considering the difference in strenghts.

                                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                          @Robby:

                                          I think they were jsut dicussing potential positives and negatives there, not specifically saying they were going to send them out after them.

                                          Given what we know about all of them… I figured the purpose was mostly there to weed out pirates like Krieg that would be a problem... and to keep pirates like Mihawk from getting "bored" with the marines and going on a spree. Or to keep Hancock only attacking pirated. We know Jinbe in particular was a racially motivated choice, and Buggy they had to know was actually weak but had influence.

                                          And we don't know what Kuma's dealw as but he was apparently a total monster that then became a loyal dog so... Yeah it bit them in the ass with Crocodile and Doflamingo... but even Moria was mostly planning to build his army to go after other pirates with.

                                          That's pretty much what I was saying when I meant that it made sense when it was early and abstract. Having privateers going after other pirates seems like a good idea. But the entire balance of the three powers thing seems like a flawed construct. Especially when you consider how much emphasis they put on making clear that even a tiny fraction in the system might destroy the world as they know it.

                                          –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                          @Sibersk:

                                          Did Mini Merry even have more than one appearance? That felt like a final tribute, not a replacement.

                                          If I'm not mistaken it was Mini-Merry they used to get to Punk Hazard.

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                                          • Robby
                                            Robby @Sibersk Esto
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                                            @Sibersk:

                                            Did Mini Merry even have more than one appearance? That felt like a final tribute, not a replacement.

                                            It's appeared a few times. And it doesn't matter if it hasn't shown up much, it's immediate role was to ease the hurt of the previous loss. It showed up just a few chapters after Merry died, same way Sabo was teased even as Ace died.

                                            (And then Sabo goes out and just plain takes Ace's fruit and moveset… its not surprising they hit basically the same rank in the popularity polls.)

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                                            • Barkworm
                                              Barkworm @Robby
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                                              @Robby:

                                              At the start of Thriller Bark Franky unveiled the little bonus Merry boat, and once of the characters (Usopp?) said something like "Merry came back as a lifeboat!"

                                              It wasn't explicit in that moment and it hasn't come up in-story, (But I think confirmed in an interview?) that Merry's spirit had moved into the new thing.

                                              Oh, it‘s actually worse: In chapter 439 Franky flat-out states that Merry‘s `brave soul will be carried on by the Thousand Sunny´. So the Sunny is basically Merry‘s improved re-incarnation.

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                                              • Robby
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                                                Well until the boat starts talking and moving onits own, its not as good as the old boat.

                                                It's been over a decade and I still far prefer Merry's design. I just don't like how Sunny looks mostly. Merry was a boat, Sunny is a carnival ride. Some of the features like the grass on deck are nice but…

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                                                • L
                                                  legumes @theackwardstation
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                                                  Probably easier to accept that oda's plan is not as airtight as many of us assumed and that the man himself can be susceptible to retcons and poor storytelling (sometimes). It's the best way to explain the whole "ehhh we don't know that the gomu fruit is the legendary fruit" boo-boo that's happening now (same for imu)

                                                  @theackwardstation:

                                                  If you're seeking for answers why these events could enhance the story, I think you should wait because the story can go different ways, so it's premature to make a thematic analysis of Oda's personal take on these themes. What folks appreciate in this chapter is the sense of awe they get from reading it, or the pleasure for aesthetic and poetry, or simply the mechanical satisfaction of seeing important events unfold in a story. It's electrifying! Besides, these tropes are popular too…

                                                  What you can do for now is start thinking about these concepts in general beyond a superficial understandment -- researching them, reading mythology, etc -- so you'll have more baggage to digest the story. After all, it's inexorable that all interpretations are made from personal references, biases, morals and knowledge -- and ours are much different than Oda's. By the way, people love to point out all the mythological references Oda put in the story, but people like to think about them as mere easter eggs and cool visuals, and ignore that these things may have significance for the author beyond the surface. But that's the author's choice to place his work alongside the tradition where he wants it to belong.

                                                  ...

                                                  Personally, I'm so used to the idea of Luffy being the spiritual successor of Joy Boy that it's the only way the story makes sense to me. It's not only all the foreshadowing and prophecies, but the storytelling itself. The narration boxes in One Piece are like an ancient poet (oh Muse!) singing the story of a great Hero or a great King, traditionally mystified to be of a higher order to justify his greatness, like it's a tautological correlation for old poets. That's aesthetic, metaphor, and the mythification of virtues – that's art! The craft is that Luffy sets out on his journey to become King, but a playful misdirection named Pirate King. Nevertheless, the more we discover about the quest of finding the One Piece and about the Ancient Kingdom, the more the Pirate King becomes the purpose of liberating the world. I understand that, mechanically, anyone can arrive at Laugh Tale and become Pirate King (and do nothing), but this is a story, so it also functions on a thematic level – and here we see the narrative fusion of the mechanical with the deontological, thus the Pirate King is the Just King. (That's why I like theories of Black Beard getting to Laugh Tale first, since even though he accomplishes the mechanical goal, he only becomes a false king.) Every arc of One Piece feels like a construction of the ideals that make Luffy the Just King – especially the stretch from Romance Dawn to Skypiea --, and the values that make him prevail over any villain in real battles of will. Ages before the timeskip, the language of the story portrayed Luffy as a light that liberates the world from darkness. Even sheer luck conspires for Luffy's success all the time – and that's regardless of the story calling it destiny or not, although characters comment on it every time. In the words of Woop Slap, "is it his dream or his destiny?". Meanwhile, the character many see as the final boss – Black Beard -- is always talking about fate since his introduction. And all of this is rather mythical, especially on a meta level thinking about our history and the tradition of Epic stories.

                                                  What's ingenious is that Luffy already does on his journey the mission that the Pirate King is meant to do after learning everything in Laugh Tale. When two separate things (Luffy and Pirate King) are thematically so equivalent to the point of being conceptually inseparable, and finally they crash together at the end despite the theoretical "odds" in-universe (Luffy finds the One Piece), this is the definition of Destiny. You can't measure it empirically, you can't see the forces of the universe acting, but it's the human abstraction of extreme "coincidences" and special "circunstances". The writing is just accepting this concept by speaking it out loud. Moreover, it's the self-awareness of the story – and also its moral, a devir of sorts.

                                                  At last, nothing of what I said negates other themes in the story, like freedom. I just feel like people don't know how to contextualize other themes and facts once fate comes to the table. Which leads me to my next point.

                                                  …

                                                  I don't see much real criticism other than strict distaste for this direction... which it totally valid, btw, nobody has to like it since enjoyment always comes from personal biases, and that's how it should be. I really want to emphasize that nobody is wrong for hating it, but we should acknowledge that this debate is a moral conundrum instead of a mere storytelling critique. The issue is that most of this stuff are meaningless concepts for most people nowadays, even inadequate and outdated, especially in the West – so some people feel like "what's the point of this shit?".

                                                  What people crave for in stories is for the stories to reinforce their cultural myths and ideals – to inspire them in their beliefs. And what could those values and myths be today? For example, from rags to riches, freedom (the blockbuster version of the principle), individualism (your success is only your own), equality (not only of 'state rights', but ontological equality), equality of opportunities (which is the theoretical "meritocracy"), scientism (even in fantasy), secularism, etc… and these principles are all good to me -- I'm not criticizing¹. Therefore, the next step is projecting these values into the story as much as possible to extract personal meaning.

                                                  Thus, while One Piece seemed """ambiguous""", readers could ignore the contradictions and still find those ideals in the story. However, now Joy Boy returned like a wrecking ball, which apparently crashes all of our modern principles. I mean, Luffy is special, priviledged, destined, and all of this is kinda religious/spiritual too, and there's even the possibility of reincarnation. It just feels like the antithesis of our morals and beliefs, right? Well yes, but actually no.

                                                  We can still talk about freedom and effort in One Piece, no doubt about it. We can also think about fate under different angles (for example, I like the concept of Karma). It's very clear that Will moves Destiny in One Piece – and there are old Wills at play in this story which shape destiny all the time. Besides, you can still find inspiration in the story, or just admire the craft. Don't forget that stories are metaphors, not reality. But, of course, a deeper analysis of all of this will depends on how Oda tells the story from now on.

                                                  ¹ I'm also "westerner" (latino, actually), leftist, a science-dude, atheist, secular, etc.

                                                  So basically you're arguing that people align beliefs to what they want to see happen in those stories. Which may be true sometimes, and i've enjoyed stuff like LoTR because of its themes, but given how oda has always wrote the One Piece as something that many people have risked their lives for despite the costs, and having it all be thrown away because of how specific the prophecies does stink up the overall message that oda has, in no small part, being building up to (unless you think all the people chasing after the OP are foolish when they were locked from the quest to begin with).
                                                  Like even if the themes of destiny and whatnot are prevalent in one piece, the opposite that freedom and free will are also very prevalent ideas consistently developed since the start of the series (and not some made up preference some of us have), and having the series take a sharp dive into the former at the detriment of the latter does hurt your narrative at the end.

                                                  And how does luffy being the hero equate to him having all the symbols be granted to him on a platter? My statement wasn't about the criticism lobbied at this revelations, but how does all these sacred icons being given to luffy enriches the themes of luffy having to struggle to get there and/or how he always saves the day because of it.
                                                  It's one thing for luffy to be a spiritual successor to the joyboy title, its another to realize he has all the pieces of the ancient kingdom from the start.
                                                  The former is absolutely not served by the special fruit/hat/one-in-a-million haki/heritage and the latter doesn't need these blatant comparisons unless you're a 6 year old schoolkid (and even i don't think they're that daft not to see how luffy will, in fact, manage to save wano irregardless of whether he has a chosen one fruit to begin with).

                                                  Ivotas R theackwardstation 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                  • Ivotas
                                                    Ivotas @legumes
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                                                    @legumes:

                                                    Probably easier to accept that oda's plan is not as airtight as many of us assumed and that the man himself can be susceptible to retcons and poor storytelling (sometimes). It's the best way to explain the whole "ehhh we don't know that the gomu fruit is the legendary fruit" boo-boo that's happening now (same for imu)

                                                    That's pretty much it. If I had to put it simply, I would have to say that to me it's kind of a feeling of disillusion that One Piece in the end just might not be that good as originally thought. And by that I don't mean it's bad or mediocre or just slightly good. It's still very good. But not as good as when we could not see many of the cracks in the story.

                                                    Personally I think that One Piece when finished will turn out to be a series where the actual main story turns out not to be as good as the actually little advantures we went through to get the full picture. Again, not saying it's going to be bad, but rather that those adventures especially during the earlier stages of the series where just that good. Oda undoubtedly is on track to tell the story he always wanted to tell. But along the way he's actually managed to fill the road with entertaining moments and characters, leading readers such as myself to expect that everything will be of the same quality.

                                                    Who's fault is this really though? Honestly, it's nobody's fault. You can't really blame the author for doing somethings better than others. It would be great if possible but understandable if not. And readers are also not to blame for feeling havnig expectations after being exposed to what the author is capable of. Feeling disappointed is normal. Where it get's ridiculous is when people act entitled to what the story should be in their eyes. Doesn't mean however that bad writing cannot be called out for being bad writing. It's a blurry line between the two sometimes.

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                                                    • D.aelthasaar
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                                                      One of my ideas about going to Elbaf is that the crew will have to go to Nifelheim (realm of the dead) through one branch of the Yggdrasil (the big tree) to recover Luffy and Zoro's souls that are currently vacant from their bodies.

                                                      The Luffy/Joyboy/Nika (I avoid the sungod epiteth, as it is misleading imho, as Nika is not a god, but perceived as that, and the same applies to Joyboy) could really well leave the crew while in Luffy's body, and the crew should get Luffy's life back, going for an inversion of Impel Down…which had "hells" as floors, and that's why I made a parallel with Nifelheim.

                                                      That means that we could see Shanks helping the crew without Luffy seeing Shanks yet.

                                                      I still believe that Blackbeard or some of his crew will appear in the final phases of Wano, and BB will reveal his Xebec's inherited will

                                                      Proud Kintama Owner ![](images/smilies/ipb/grin.png "Grin")

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                                                      • kevo_koma
                                                        kevo_koma @D.aelthasaar
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                                                        @D.aelthasaar:

                                                        One of my ideas about going to Elbaf is that the crew will have to go to Nifelheim (realm of the dead) through one branch of the Yggdrasil (the big tree) to recover Luffy and Zoro's souls that are currently vacant from their bodies.

                                                        The Luffy/Joyboy/Nika (I avoid the sungod epiteth, as it is misleading imho, as Nika is not a god, but perceived as that, and the same applies to Joyboy) could really well leave the crew while in Luffy's body, and the crew should get Luffy's life back, going for an inversion of Impel Down…which had "hells" as floors, and that's why I made a parallel with Nifelheim.

                                                        That means that we could see Shanks helping the crew without Luffy seeing Shanks yet.

                                                        I still believe that Blackbeard or some of his crew will appear in the final phases of Wano, and BB will reveal his Xebec's inherited will

                                                        Introducing a literal Underworld would just be waay to much. Even for One Piece and its current progresssion.

                                                        Luffy and Zoro won't die, that would just be too absurd.

                                                        Like, what does that add to the story?

                                                        Usually, Underworld stories are often used as a way to progress the characters story as they confront their past and actions.

                                                        It usually never serves any other purpose.

                                                        In this case what would the strawhats gain from going to the land of the dead? what would it add to the story?

                                                        HOW COME LUFFY NEVER KILLS AN ENEMY?

                                                        ODA:ITS BECAUSE IN THAT ERA EVERYONE USES THEIR LIVES TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS. FOR AN ENEMY WHEN THEIR DREAM HAS BEEN SHATTERED,IT IS AS PAINFUL AS DEATH,I BELIEVE FOR A PIRATE NOT TO KILL AN ENEMY , IT'S GIVING THEM A SECOND CHANCE TO FIGHT FOR THEIR DREAMS.

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                                                        • U
                                                          uniaka ikuzakas
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                                                          It always felt Like luffy's fruit was too weak compared to all the crazy fruits out there Like admiral logias, Law, BB, magellan, sugar, etc. Haki was a way to compensate for the broken fruit vs weak fruit, but Even haki has (time) limits and unless luffy was going to eat a second fruit Like blackbeard( ace fruit in dressrosa), gomu no had to get a big power up. Gear 4 was great, but the time limit REALLY hurts the battles of luffy and also depends too much on coa haki.

                                                          https://imgur.com/MyjRSWw

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                                                          • R
                                                            RigaCrypto @legumes
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                                                            @legumes:

                                                            Probably easier to accept that oda's plan is not as airtight as many of us assumed and that the man himself can be susceptible to retcons and poor storytelling (sometimes). It's the best way to explain the whole "ehhh we don't know that the gomu fruit is the legendary fruit" boo-boo that's happening now (same for imu)

                                                            First of all, we should not put everything that Oda tries to write that is unexpected or unforshadowed in the "Plothole/BS" jar . I mean if Oda didn't plan anything special for Luffy during the course of this manga, why even bother to write it.. he envisioned the bigger picture of this manga a long time ago and all these little details that are unveiled contribute to that specific story course.

                                                            Second, Luffy IS the protagonist in this bildungsroman manga and we can expect great things to happen and I can only commend and appreciate Oda for his infinite creativity to come up with something totally new and shrouded in mystery after 1000+ chapters that can create this level of ambiguity in the fanbase. Look at how the story progressed up until now, we can expect Oda to keep delivering the same well-thought development and growth of characters with a grain of "personal decisions" that would never ever satisfy all of the fans own view of how the story should move forward.

                                                            Luffy vs Katakuri Full fight: https://www.docdroid.net/qrFOY9p/luffyxkata.pdf

                                                            Luffy vs Cracker Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/Pk06JZL/luffy-vs-cracker.pdf

                                                            Luffy vs Doflamingo Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/VDl3Ctf/luffyxdoffy.pdf

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                                                            • theackwardstation
                                                              theackwardstation @legumes
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                                                              @legumes:

                                                              So basically you're arguing that people align beliefs to what they want to see happen in those stories. Which may be true sometimes, and i've enjoyed stuff like LoTR because of its themes, but given how oda has always wrote the One Piece as something that many people have risked their lives for despite the costs, and having it all be thrown away because of how specific the prophecies does stink up the overall message that oda has, in no small part, being building up to (unless you think all the people chasing after the OP are foolish when they were locked from the quest to begin with).

                                                              Are you talking about all the other pirates risking their lives to become Pirate King? Well, the prophecies don't change anything, because they can still find the One Piece. As I put in one of my paragraphs, there's the mechanical way to become Pirate King, and "anyone" can accomplish that. Roger got to Laugh Tale despite not being Joy Boy; Newgate could have gone there if he wanted to; and I believe Black Beard will get there too, perhaps. To sum it up, any pirate can get to Laugh Tale and enjoy the public title of Pirate King (a false king). Isn't that what pirates want? Wealth, fame and power?

                                                              The prophecies are about a great person who will be reborn, Joy Boy, the Just King. Do you see the difference? The Pirate King and the Just King are two different titles, but they're bound to be carried by the same individual since the One Piece is the means for both of them. Thus, as a story, thematically, they're one and the same. For the sake of finding Joy Boy, Roger misdirected the world by offering the title of Pirate King. Then we follow the journey of a boy who wants to become the Pirate King, but the storytelling is all about the thematic construction of the values of a Just king – a mythological archetype disguised by a macguffing. In my opinion, that's brilliant writing!

                                                              Like even if the themes of destiny and whatnot are prevalent in one piece, the opposite that freedom and free will are also very prevalent ideas consistently developed since the start of the series (and not some made up preference some of us have), and having the series take a sharp dive into the former at the detriment of the latter does hurt your narrative at the end.

                                                              Freedom and freewill are still real themes in One Piece. Nobody is puppeteering Luffy into doing all this stuff. The cosmos is not controlling him. Luffy's mind is his own. In this regard, nobody chooses their own self and psyche, so this is not a philosophical question of freedom.

                                                              In fact, it's Luffy's personal agency that makes him carry the Will of D. by virtue of his nature. Luffy doesn't even know about the prophecies and the void century, but he still liberates the world since he thinks it's right. Luffy being Joy Boy is not a restraint of fate, but the exercise of freewill.

                                                              At last, I should emphasize that Luffy is fated to be Joy Boy, not fated to accomplish the Will of D. – failing is not beyond the cards. The past Joy Boy failed.

                                                              And how does luffy being the hero equate to him having all the symbols be granted to him on a platter? My statement wasn't about the criticism lobbied at this revelations, but how does all these sacred icons being given to luffy enriches the themes of luffy having to struggle to get there and/or how he always saves the day because of it.
                                                              It's one thing for luffy to be a spiritual successor to the joyboy title, its another to realize he has all the pieces of the ancient kingdom from the start.
                                                              The former is absolutely not served by the special fruit/hat/one-in-a-million haki/heritage and the latter doesn't need these blatant comparisons unless you're a 6 year old schoolkid (and even i don't think they're that daft not to see how luffy will, in fact, manage to save wano irregardless of whether he has a chosen one fruit to begin with).

                                                              This is a revisionist interpretation of the story, like it retcons past arcs. No, you've read the story. We've seen the effort Luffy put into it – and the effort other characters also put it into us getting here. Those things are still true.

                                                              Luffy didn't have all the pieces from the start. Luffy had to recruit his crew. Luffy had to get stronger. Luffy had to do it.

                                                              The Gomu Gomu may be a legendary fruit, but until yesterday it could only do those rubber abilities that Luffy so creatively perfected, and that's how he got to this stage. And the same goes for every other perk he's priviledged to own, some of which are just intrinsic to his personality, an ontological fact. And if good luck (or karma) is also part of the journey, that's not something we can criticize only now, since it was an intrinsic fact of all the arcs from the start of the story.

                                                              Finally, you shouldn't dismiss so much the narrative trope of the 'chosen one' – it's not a bad writing tool, because story is metaphor, not description. That's why it's the prevalence of theme over the mundane.

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                                                              • wolfwood
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                                                                It does reframe everything. That is a big part in what makes it feel wrong.

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                                                                • flandrian15
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                                                                  Whatever it is that is happening, if there's one thing that is for sure, it is that Luffy (or Zoro for that matter), as a person will not dissapear from the story. The themes of this manga have been too much about Luffy wanting to be the most free person in the world and on having a grand adventure so that any form of predestination is basically out of the question. However, as the intro to One Piece has long told us, inhereted will IS a thing that can come into play and is it different from predestination in that one can carry the will of another without being that person or becoming that person.

                                                                  Also I was thinking about the sudden logianess of Luffy's fruit and was reading on here it might be tree sap because rubber was made from tree sap so I was thinking if there were some special trees and then there was this:

                                                                  In Chinese Mythology, a carving of a tree of life depicts a phoenix and a dragon; the dragon often represents immortality. A Taoist story tells of a tree that produces a peach of immortality every three thousand years, and anyone who eats the fruit receives immortality.
                                                                  An archeological discovery in the 1990s was of a sacrificial pit at Sanxingdui in Sichuan, China. Dating from about 1200 BCE, it contained threebronze trees, one of them 4 meters high. At the base was a dragon, and fruit hanging from the lower branches. At the top is a bird-like (Phoenix) creature with claws. Also found in Sichuan, from the late Han dynasty (c 25 – 220 CE), is another tree of life. The ceramic base is guarded by a horned beast with wings. The leaves of the tree represent coins and people. At the apex is a bird with coins and the Sun.

                                                                  If Luffy doesn't have the rubber fruit he might have the tree sap fruit from the Adam tree which is perhaps the "tree of Life", who knows what this might do when awakened. Having a healing effect doesn't sound too farfetched anyway. This myth is also very integratable with the Momotaro (peach boy) references and ties big players at the scene in both mythologies. The monkey (Luffy), the dog (Yamato) and the pheasant (that one is not so clear), the dragon (Kaidou and Momo) and the phoenix (Marco).

                                                                  What is interesting here is also the interplay between the Gorosei saying that, even for them, (probably) Luffy's fruit is a legend because it hasn't awakaned in so long and the myth saying the peach only grows every 3000 years. In both instances, the special thing being that the fruit is very rare. The Peach of the momotaru legend gave birth to Momotaru or better, Momotaru was born out of the peach. Naturally Luffy will not be born because of his fruit but instead of being born, something latent within him might be awoken (the drums of liberation?) and this might be something that happens to anyone that can awaken this specific fruit, which happens very rarely.

                                                                  Remember, remember, the 5th of November

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                                                                  • fana
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                                                                    While discussing "worst case scenario" can be interesting, especially since there's a 2-week wait, it annoys me a bit to read some comments that scream plothole before the facts are fully known.

                                                                    Not saying there will be no plothole in the end but as of this chapter we lack the actual information to make that conclusion.

                                                                    For instance, maybe wait a bit before stating as a fact that it doesn't make sense that the WG didn't act before. It seems more than likely that they are acting based on new informations and that won't just be "we just learned that Luffy ate the Gomu fruit and we already knew that it was THAT legendary fruit".

                                                                    Also, Luffy is Luffy. In the end, I can't see Oda changing his personality based on any kind of destiny thread that's slapped on him. And that's what matters most for me.

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                                                                    • zeltrax225
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                                                                      It still doesn't make sense for me for the Gorosei to hold back. I mean, the WG has been established as an entity that erases all history that is a threat to them through any means necessary. They burned down Ohara and also put out a bounty that on a 9 year old girl that might as well be murder. Cipher Pol has also been shown to be ruthless in erasing anyone that stands in the way. There's different explanations on why they only acted now (most of which might not be satisfactory) but taking a wait and see approach is certainly not them, as established by oda himself. If Shanks meeting is anything to go by, it is likely a threat or blackmail that made them held their hand. Which means he could be playing both sides because he is fully supportive of Luffy's dream.

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                                                                      • Kdom
                                                                        Kdom @fana
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                                                                        @fana:

                                                                        While discussing "worst case scenario" can be interesting, especially since there's a 2-week wait, it annoys me a bit to read some comments that scream plothole before the facts are fully known.

                                                                        Not saying there will be no plothole in the end but as of this chapter we lack the actual information to make that conclusion.

                                                                        For instance, maybe wait a bit before stating as a fact that it doesn't make sense that the WG didn't act before. It seems more than likely that they are acting based on new informations and that won't just be "we just learned that Luffy ate the Gomu fruit and we already knew that it was THAT legendary fruit".

                                                                        Also, Luffy is Luffy. In the end, I can't see Oda changing his personality based on any kind of destiny thread that's slapped on him. And that's what matters most for me.

                                                                        You are right but then maybe we should close the thread if the only thing we can do is wait for what Oda has in mind 🙂

                                                                        Oda will probably give some explanations but I'm not sure they will satisfies every critics that have been written so far

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                                                                        • A
                                                                          Ashura_KingFisher @Kdom
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                                                                          It's nice to see Joy Boy emerged this quickly. I wonder if his true identity in the past will be revealed soon.

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                                                                          • maxterdexter
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                                                                            I think that people are glossing over one thing that Luffy said, when raileigh offered the laughtale spoilers back during shabody, or when Robin or the villain of movie… dynamite? Stampede? Avalanche? The one with the supernovas and random characters in the pirate tournament offered a destination:

                                                                            This is his voyage, whatever fate or idea this joy boy has set up for Luffy, if it is not luffys ideals, he won’t do it, with the threat of turning this ship around and quit being a pirate on top.

                                                                            3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837

                                                                            SW-4128-8032-0729

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                                                                            • hideoushorrendous
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                                                                              There are a couple of fruits that turns the user into mythical humans

                                                                              There are a couple of fruits that works after dying ( Brook & Enel )

                                                                              Hyogoro the flower always described luffy upon transformation with the sun kami

                                                                              Oden talked about the JoyBoy to reappear in the future

                                                                              The bink's sake lyrics

                                                                              this whole thing has been already foreshadowed on every aspect long before the Gorosei or Who'sWho said a thing so maybe some fellas needs to calm down a little?

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                                                                              • Coookie
                                                                                Coookie @hideoushorrendous
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                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                There are a couple of fruits that turns the user into mythical humans

                                                                                That are aptly called Mythical Zoan Human-Human Fruit: Model _______.

                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                There are a couple of fruits that works after dying ( Brook & Enel )

                                                                                Brook's is explicitly the Revive Revive Fruit, for electricity human Enel it made sense that the brain can still send signals for a short time after the heart has stopped.

                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                Hyogoro the flower always described luffy upon transformation with the sun kami

                                                                                Hyogoro said Luffy looks like a Guardian Deity, not Sun God Nika himself.

                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                Oden talked about the JoyBoy to reappear in the future

                                                                                Oden said that they're waiting for someone, not that Joy Boy himself will reappear.

                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                The bink's sake lyrics

                                                                                What about them, the drum part? I still don't see why people are making a big deal out of the SFX, why does it have to have a deeper meaning beyond just being drums?

                                                                                @hideoushorrendous:

                                                                                this whole thing has been already foreshadowed on every aspect long before the Gorosei or Who'sWho said a thing so maybe some fellas needs to calm down a little?

                                                                                People have explained why these reveals are a whole lot different than what has been foreshadowed before.

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                                                                                • Alfiere
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                                                                                  I wonder how many times it has to be reiterated that the issue many people are having is not "this direction was unexpected and not forshadowed" but "it was disappointing that it turned exactly how it was foreshadowed that we were stranding away from the more charming aspects of the story and closer to end of NAruto shenanigans" for this strawman argument to be put to rest.

                                                                                  Curiosity has its own reason for existing

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                                                                                  • Daz
                                                                                    Daz
                                                                                    Warlord Mod
                                                                                    @wolfwood
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                                                                                    @wolfwood:

                                                                                    It does reframe everything. That is a big part in what makes it feel wrong.

                                                                                    Well, it only reframes things if you've been reading one piece wrong, you know. Any aspects of the series which you enjoyed and now feel are in conflict with this development, it was your mistake to put stock in those things in the first place, no doubt influenced by your own westernized, modern biases for storytelling. Oda doesn't abide by such things (though if he did that'd probably also be cool subversions that'd distinguish the series from its peers).

                                                                                    Now all this doesn't really make things any better for you of course, but it does dismiss your grievances as baseless and misinformed, so thats something

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                                                                                    • Jabra
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                                                                                      Oda is definitely a skilled CoC user.

                                                                                      Of the Hancock version

                                                                                      !

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                                                                                      • Tarek
                                                                                        Tarek @Coookie
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                                                                                        @Coookie:

                                                                                        Oden said that they're waiting for someone, not that Joy Boy himself will reappear.

                                                                                        He specifically mentions Joyboy in chapter 968:

                                                                                        !

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                                                                                        • Monquito
                                                                                          Monquito
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                                                                                          I think Oda's terrible habit of throwing the smallest crumbs of information as possible, is whats hurting him back right now.

                                                                                          For instance, if Luffy being the user of a legendary df is not a mistery, but the real mistery lies within the fruit itself and what its real nature is, then why he went all the way to make ~the user~ a mistery and have us discuss who the df user was.

                                                                                          He could've saved it, if it was Luffy all along, just say it damn it, that was completely unnecesary.

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                                                                                          • Coookie
                                                                                            Coookie @Tarek
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                                                                                            @Tarek:

                                                                                            He specifically mentions Joyboy in chapter 968:

                                                                                            ! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/qTwqSZs.jpg?1[/qimg]

                                                                                            Good catch, I stand corrected then

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                                                                                            • R
                                                                                              RigaCrypto @Coookie
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                                                                                              @Coookie:

                                                                                              Brook's is explicitly the Revive Revive Fruit, for electricity human Enel it made sense that the brain can still send signals for a short time after the heart has stopped.
                                                                                              .

                                                                                              Law's and Masherry's fruit also fall into this category imo. And also Marco could have some after death powers since it has a move called "Fukkatsu no Aoi Honō?, English version: Blue Flame of Revival".

                                                                                              And he have a couple of totally broken DF that Oda didn't care to fully explain that produce parallel worlds and nobody bat an eye when they were shown cough Blueno cough.

                                                                                              Luffy vs Katakuri Full fight: https://www.docdroid.net/qrFOY9p/luffyxkata.pdf

                                                                                              Luffy vs Cracker Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/Pk06JZL/luffy-vs-cracker.pdf

                                                                                              Luffy vs Doflamingo Full fight : https://www.docdroid.net/VDl3Ctf/luffyxdoffy.pdf

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                                                                                              • Ivotas
                                                                                                Ivotas @Tarek
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                                                                                                @Tarek:

                                                                                                He specifically mentions Joyboy in chapter 968:

                                                                                                ! https://i.imgur.com/qTwqSZs.jpg?1

                                                                                                Oh, totally forgot the part in the final speech bubble. Well I guess they failed on that one then, eh?^^

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                                                                                                • D.aelthasaar
                                                                                                  D.aelthasaar @kevo_koma
                                                                                                  @kevo_koma last edited by
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                                                                                                  @kevo_koma:

                                                                                                  Introducing a literal Underworld would just be waay to much. Even for One Piece and its current progresssion.

                                                                                                  Luffy and Zoro won't die, that would just be too absurd.

                                                                                                  Like, what does that add to the story?

                                                                                                  Usually, Underworld stories are often used as a way to progress the characters story as they confront their past and actions.

                                                                                                  It usually never serves any other purpose.

                                                                                                  In this case what would the strawhats gain from going to the land of the dead? what would it add to the story?

                                                                                                  It's not related to Luffy and Zoro but mostly to Nami and Usopp
                                                                                                  It's about showing the strength of the crew without the monster trio

                                                                                                  Proud Kintama Owner ![](images/smilies/ipb/grin.png "Grin")

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                                                                                                  • theackwardstation
                                                                                                    theackwardstation @wolfwood
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                                                                                                    @wolfwood:

                                                                                                    It does reframe everything. That is a big part in what makes it feel wrong.

                                                                                                    No, it doesn't.

                                                                                                    .

                                                                                                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                                                    @Daz:

                                                                                                    Well, it only reframes things if you've been reading one piece wrong, you know. Any aspects of the series which you enjoyed and now feel are in conflict with this development, it was your mistake to put stock in those things in the first place, no doubt influenced by your own westernized, modern biases for storytelling. Oda doesn't abide by such things (though if he did that'd probably also be cool subversions that'd distinguish the series from its peers).

                                                                                                    Now all this doesn't really make things any better for you of course, but it does dismiss your grievances as baseless and misinformed, so thats something

                                                                                                    Huh… no, sorry. That's not it also.

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                                                                                                    • Coookie
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                                                                                                      theackwardstation said it ain't so, glad we can finally put this discussion to rest.

                                                                                                      Move along folks, nothing to see here.

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                                                                                                      • theackwardstation
                                                                                                        theackwardstation @Coookie
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                                                                                                        @Coookie:

                                                                                                        theackwardstation said it ain't so, glad we can finally put this discussion to rest.

                                                                                                        Move along folks, nothing to see here.

                                                                                                        I said it ain't so because Daz misrepresented what I said before. Thus I'm the best authority to say "it ain't so", and you can move on indeed.

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