Red Hood

FolhaS

Well, very different ways of thinking we have then.

The base plot of the story was clearly planned at the start of the series ( a story about stories) as most Jump series are, even if the actual end isnt already planned there is an initial road the series is going to take, and when they get canceled the authors just tend to skip stuff and try to go for the high points.
Its what this series did, and we agree that it didnt work and actually made a mess of what could jave been cool ideas. But its still, imo, the preferable route.

Why would the author and editor lose their time trying to come up with some other ending when the series is already walking to its cancelation? Better to use the time they have left to close the story and then quickly move on to the next project.
They could ve kept an open ending, like the series finishing when Velou reaches the Guild and say he will train alot with his allies and eventualy beat the werewolves, and as you said, save the meta ideas for a future project. But, why?
It would be beating a dead horse, it didnt work now and the author already used the fairy tale setting. Might as well end the idea now, admit the defeat, and prepare for the next project with a fresh idea.

Robby

Because in doing htis, he went from a lackluster ending to an outright bad trainwreck of an ending. ANd seems like he was insulting the readers.

That'll affect his future prospects and any desire to give him another chance.

When other series end early, they might feel like wasted potential or rushed… but its not the same as an absolute trainwreck.

Zack

Looking around other forums, a lot of people seem to be liking the latest Red Hood chapters, but I also think a lot of people just go crazy for meta writing no matter how poorly executed it is.

Daz

Eh, I'll join the side of not finding the author Obviously Objectively Butthurt, and seeing these developments have some merit. Obviously the ending is extremely compromised, but the meta-angle was explicitly evoked in what, chapter 8? So its not like a completely out-of-nowhere swerve, half the serialization has been building to this. The series could've scrambled to change itself all at once from one chapter to the next but didn't, possibly to its detriment, but honestly I find that the end result may be more consistent and deliberate in and of itself than some longer-running, more succesful manga could be, like when each Reborn arc introduced a new gimmick for the leads, or when Toriko would abruptly discard whatever it was currently doing. This perspective is no doubt also affected by the short length of Red Hood, but I can respect trying to have an actual conclusive ending rather than "Not Renewed For A Second Season"

Zack

At the very least, I do think this is going to be a lot of readers' first big Shonen Jump cancellation disappointment. I know the first one I went through was Double Arts. I even found an old forum post about it.

http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=32201&p=2168955&viewfull=1#post2168955

@Zack:

Manga/Anime - Does that count?

Double Arts. Great shounen that had a ton of originality and potential that ended up getting cancelled. Definitely my most bummed out day to hear something being cancelled.

TV series - Megas XLR, Chowder.

The author did end up coming back with Nisekoi which was pretty successful though.

black-leg jex

Yeah I don't think the author is insulting his readers but I totally get why people see that. I just think its a meta commentary on how stories are made and playing to the reader is a big part of that, so the readers being god and playing to that makes sense.

I'm kind of expecting this series to end with the book being destroyed and it just ending suddenly lol. Like the final panel is just the book being ripped and then nothing else. It would play into the meta narrative.

@Zar:

The author decided to do meta commentary on fanservice and perversion. It's such a convoluted mess I can't do much else but link to the chapters: https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Fire-Brigade-Of-Flames-chapter-279-page-3.html (it continues to chapter 282).

Red Hood is digging its own grave but at least it's not trying to do harmful commentary about a complicated real life issue.

A bit off-topic but I've never read Fire orce but I didn't think it was a series this overt with meta commentary. Not even the fanservice but the background characters literally vanishing. What was that about???

Ivotas

I'd like to second what Robby said about setup, execution and timing being everything. The author had the mayor say why not to end it prematurely if the readers don't like it. I have no problems accepting that a meta level commentary was always supposed to be something reserved for the endgame of the series. But if this series would have run for several hundred chapters and ended on the authors terms I'm sure that this is not what the mayor would have said. He might have said something along the lines of "every good story needs to end at some point" or "be greatful that you were given the chance to go on this many adventures" or something along those lines that shows gratitude (I know I'm not good at comming up with good examples). But it would never have ended with the words the mayor used in this chapter.

Why does Shonen Jump let him go through with this then? Well, the sole fact that we're actually discussing wether this is him blaming the fans or not shows that not everyone is sold on thar point of view. So guys at Shueisha might buy into this too. In the end it comes down to how each person individually reads that development. I personally find it him being unprofessional and blaming the fans for not liking what he poured heart and soul into.

Sidenote:
I wonder if next week the mayor will also claim to have erases backrounds from the world and blame the lack assistants for it.

El-Matematico

I'm also not really feeling like he's insulting the readers, more like accusing the editor and self pitying.
About accusing the editor: the mayor seems to be the stand in for the editor, since he's the one meddling with the script and adding the awful werewolf bros. He's now ending the manga.
I believe that the meta stuff was always the intent, but the author used the commentary to criticize the choices made in the story. Another manga running in WSJ, Undead Unluck, had a self referencial arc where the author criticized the beginning of UU. If anything, it would be weird to get into fourth wall breaking territory and only reference a fictional meta instead of addressing reality.

Ivotas

Accusing the editor is pretty much related to what I mean when I'm saying he's blaming the readers. As I said before there's a clear difference between blaming and insulting someone. However that does not mean that the blamed party cannot feel offended. Kind of a "well, f… you sir! See when I'm gonna support you again" reaction. Not that I'm saying that's how I feel. Just showing how blaming can lead to offense. But to me it's clearly blaming. And I would agree that it's also a jab at the editor and to a degree a jab at the entire system that enables this too. But then again this is pretty much the point I'm making at the first place. Be it readers, editors or Shueisha itself, the author is salty and accusing/blaming anyone but himself fir the cancellation. This feels less of a man who deals with a huge setback like a true professional and more like a child with an "well, if you don't like it then I'm just gonna go home and take my toys with me" attitude. I mean isn't this his first serialization anyways? Lack of experience and possibly a very young age might definitely lead to something like this. Not every mangaka is unphased working machine. Some people deal with setbacks differently. His feelings are understandble. But it doesn't make his actions lesser pathetic. Just deal with it, learn from it and come back stronger. If you can't he should reconsider if this is the right working environment for him. It's commonplace here in Japan that people do extremes because they cannot deal with the pressure of working for a Japanese company.

Coookie

Red Hood is ending with the upcoming chapter

black-leg jex

Well that's not a surprise.

Ivotas

Wow, not even 20 chapters. I honestly we'd be gwtting as many.

Robby

It only got this many because Jump was running a month of try out one shots so spaces weren't opening up. Otherwise it woulda been done sooner. Barrage only got 16 and Time Paradox rip off artist only had 14… which I think is the fastest cancellation I know of.

Neru will almost certainly follow the week after.

Ivotas

Oh, I see. I'm really not that familiar with early cancellations so I figured they woud always end at 10 or 20 chapters so that Shueisha can at least get some money out of the volume sales. I stand corrected.

PatTraverse

Series was basically DOA so there is no real money to be made even with volume sales. That is why they will try to cut their loses as early as possible.

Robby

@Ivotas:

Oh, I see. I'm really not that familiar with early cancellations so I figured they woud always end at 10 or 20 chapters so that Shueisha can at least get some money out of the volume sales. I stand corrected.

First chapters are triple length so you can make two tanks out of the first 14 chapters as a bare minimum, since that's equivalent to 16 chapters.

8 chapter volumes are pretty thin though so something would have to be a mega bomb like TPGW to warrant not giving it an extra two weeks to have a slightly beefier release with 16 (18) chapters though.

Suppose they could always fill a section with sketches if they really needed, like they had to do for the final YuYuHakusho volume..

I'm pretty sure they will always shoot for two volumes worth at bare minimum so they can sell soemthing to whatever fans it does garner… and because they have to schedule new things into the magazine. Barring cases where its an established author like Toriyama just doing a 10 chapter short.

Ivotas

@Robby:

First chapters are triple length so you can make two tanks out of the first 14 chapters as a bare minimum, since that's equivalent to 16 chapters.

8 chapter volumes are pretty thin though so something would have to be a mega bomb like TPGW to warrant not giving it an extra two weeks to have a slightly beefier release with 16 (18) chapters though.

Suppose they could always fill a section with sketches if they really needed, like they had to do for the final YuYuHakusho volume..

I'm pretty sure they will always shoot for two volumes worth at bare minimum so they can sell soemthing to whatever fans it does garner… and because they have to schedule new things into the magazine. Barring cases where its an established author like Toriyama just doing a 10 chapter short.

Oh right, totally slipped my mind. Makes sense then. Thanks for clearing that up.

El-Matematico

Kawaguchi didn't have the balls to let the bad guy win, despite the bad guy winning.

pariston_hill

woof that was bad.

Ivotas

You could have had an ending like this without any of the mera level stuff from the previous three chapters. Or to put it differently a standard ending like this is pointless with the previous three chapters. It's as if,, you know, he was just venting his frustration instead of a coherent ending. I know I cmplained about the previius chapters but still, if you decide to take your story there then stick with it or don't do it at all. This all feels just… inconsequencial for the lack of a better term.

DarthAsthma

I don't think there is a single series I've read in Jump that had a bigger drop in expectations/story quality as this from chapter 1 to 3. Even Ghost Paradox Writer took a couple of chapters to reveal it didn't really had a thought out story while trying to appear smart(I know some people might bring up that it had to change course after the plagiarism story stuff was so hated but I frankly do not believe that with how quickly you could see how poorly it was thought out. Series was carried by the art hardcore). Then of course there is the myriad of series that just look bad from the onset and other stuff that sadly just ran out of air under the pressure like Iron Knight.

I'd be really curious what in gods name made this manga have such screwed pacing. Was it the author insisting? Was it the editor taking drugs? It's just so weird to break so many rules in your first couple of chapters when I think it's the safest and most explored place to look around for inspiration from and just apply general writing guidelines to. Like beginnings are hard I get that but whew I just feel like structurally this went from good chapter 1 lets see where it goes into uh uh….

Call me boring but I think making sure to be done with the werewolves at latest in chapter 2 then having Velou travel with Red Riding Hood for a bit was just the very basic safe way to go. Flesh your main character out. Communicate the ideas of the world more.
Just wild that it was dragged to 5 chapters into a big mystery scene that you know as a reader wouldn't be answered for quite a while.

Zar

I gotta give it to Red Hood, the few weeks it lasted has been a very memorable experience. There was so much potential in that first chapter, so how the heck we ended up with this baffles me. We went from a classic monster-of-the-week story, to a school-like setting with training arcs and bunk mates, to meta insanity and finally ended on a dull, cookie-cutter finale. What happened? Was this the authors idea? Editor's meddling? Something else we don't know about? What in the world happened to make this series turn out this way? It almost feels like some kinda art installation experiment, it's all so surreal. And what makes it hit so hard is that if the story had just stuck with it's core concept and gone the safe route I could see it turning into a huge success.

I said for a long time that I hope the author teams up with a writer and return with a new manga, but after how ranty the last chapters came across I kinda lost some respect for the guy. And maybe he really was trying to do something cool without any ill intent, but the damage is done. But I'll stick around if he comes back, just to see what insanity he'll cook up next.

Robby

@DarthAsthma:

Call me boring but I think making sure to be done with the werewolves at latest in chapter 2 then having Velou travel with Red Riding Hood for a bit was just the very basic safe way to go. Flesh your main character out. Communicate the ideas of the world more.
Just wild that it was dragged to 5 chapters into a big mystery scene that you know as a reader wouldn't be answered for quite a while.

It's almost as if the author got that exact feedback and didn't appreciate it!

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Zar:

What happened? Was this the authors idea? Editor's meddling? Something else we don't know about?

Well, if we take the above obviously meta exchange at face value it paints a pretty obvious picture.

We'll never know for sure but it seems like the first chapter was promising and that's what got it greenlit… and then the author didn't leave that location or do anything interesting for 5 chapters and the numbers tanked.

I keep trying to interpret that scene in a way where the wolves are the artist and the witch is the editor, but that ONLY makes sense if the editor gave the truly awful advice of "stay in the same town and linger on repeating yourself without introducing anything new and fresh". But even then both characters are complaining about the start sucking for different reasons. There was definitely editorial pushback that the author did not like. If that advice was "do more wolves" or "stop with the wolves and move onto something fresh" its hard to judge... but I'd have to imagine any editor worth their salt would push more variety, and NOT lingering on one idea.

It takes a stubborn first time author to insist on going slow and taking their time even if its not the best thing for the story, so I have to think he did more wolves, and the editor said "No, wrap it up, introduce an interesting big bad or something."

The only interpretation that makes sense, if that scene is meant to represent an actual conversation that happened, is if BOTH sides there are the editor "complaining", there's just two characters vocalizing because that's the only way to have a back and forth dialogue.

Otherwise it only makes sense if the editor gave incredibly bad advice..

Still, since that was chapter 8, readers would have seen the first 5 by the time he was doing that and the feedback would have been in. The numbers were awful, and he was told "this isn't working, the opening was boring and you've lost the readers... you're going to get cancelled unless you do something different."

So he turned around and tried to introduce a ton of whacky support character and lots of people with cool interesting powers, which isn't unrecedented, after all Dragonball turned around when it introduced Krillin.... but it was so sudden and out of nowhere and obviously desperate... and the side characters aside from muscular fire lady were all pretty bland... it didn't work and the numbers stayed down.

He was told he was cancelled and to wrap it up around chapter 10 or 11 and said "well I want to showcase the super cool meta ending I intended" and so jumped into the weird stuff to make us sorry and show what we missed out on because we just don't appreciate it.

Then he just plain stopped caring and gave up on doing backgrounds or leaving a clean ending.

DarthAsthma

@Zar:

I gotta give it to Red Hood, the few weeks it lasted has been a very memorable experience. There was so much potential in that first chapter, so how the heck we ended up with this baffles me. We went from a classic monster-of-the-week story, to a school-like setting with training arcs and bunk mates, to meta insanity and finally ended on a dull, cookie-cutter finale. What happened? Was this the authors idea? Editor's meddling? Something else we don't know about? What in the world happened to make this series turn out this way? It almost feels like some kinda art installation experiment, it's all so surreal. And what makes it hit so hard is that if the story had just stuck with it's core concept and gone the safe route I could see it turning into a huge success.

I said for a long time that I hope the author teams up with a writer and return with a new manga, but after how ranty the last chapters came across I kinda lost some respect for the guy. And maybe he really was trying to do something cool without any ill intent, but the damage is done. But I'll stick around if he comes back, just to see what insanity he'll cook up next.

After ghost writer paradox I stopped believing in that. Honestly I would have stopped believing in that earlier if I took the time to think about it. I think the whole writer/artist thing can have a lot of benefits if there is chemistry and of course talent on the writers side. But I think these aren't easy to come by. It's def not as simple as look you're the artist you now have time to just focus on the art and here you're the writer use all that extra time on the story and it will be good.
I'd imagine that a lot of solo artist just go into Jump wanting to do their own thing too. My assumption is Jump doesn't really force rookies to pair up, because for one as I said it's not guaranteed you're going to get a well working duo and it's also not guaranteed you're going to get a hit from a writing perspective.
That said prominent writers pairing up with artists has happened for JUMP like Medaka Box but I assume the reason we don't see it more is very logistics and people related.

Robby

@DarthAsthma:

That said prominent writers pairing up with artists has happened for JUMP like Medaka Box but I assume the reason we don't see it more is very logistics and people related.

Takeshi Obata knows he's just an artist, and is very content to pair up with writers. He just got a new series Show-Ha-Shoten about a coemdy duo that seems promising. But Hikaru No Go, Death Note, Bakuman, all hits. Even Platinum End didn't make any big waves but it ran for like six years.

I can't think of many other "gun for hire" artists though… And even he teamed up with the same writer multiple times, they obviously had synergy.

DarthAsthma

@Robby:

Takeshi Obata knows he's just an artist, and is very content to pair up with writers. He just got a new series Show-Ha-Shoten about a coemdy duo that seems promising. But Hikaru No Go, Death Note, Bakuman, all hits. Even Platinum End didn't make any big waves but it ran for like six years.

I can't think of many other "gun for hire" artists though… And even he teamed up with the same writer multiple times, they obviously had synergy.

Yeah. Also worth considering is given that pairs are already rarer than solos, that for us the public there is probably a lot of confirmation bias going on. We probably aren't even aware of a fraction of the potential pairs that tried and failed together(we mostly see the rare cases of some level of success) + Jump seems to build on its original content identity. Things also might be slightly different if Jump allowed adaptions of already proven written work in there.

FolhaS

@Robby:

Takeshi Obata knows he's just an artist, and is very content to pair up with writers. He just got a new series Show-Ha-Shoten about a coemdy duo that seems promising. But Hikaru No Go, Death Note, Bakuman, all hits. Even Platinum End didn't make any big waves but it ran for like six years.

I can't think of many other "gun for hire" artists though… And even he teamed up with the same writer multiple times, they obviously had synergy.

Obata had a solo series in Jump in the 90's: Cyborg Grandpa G, though.
Maybe Murata is a better example. I dont remember him ever having a solo series.

Anyway, I was still enjoying the ride until the last couple of pages. Guess Jump really doesnt like cancelling things and just pretends they could keep series going.
I was expecting something more along the lines of everything fading away and leaving room for new stories, an actual ending, not a good one nor a bad one, just an end. Instead of this old troupe of Well, maybe it could continue

Robby

@FolhaS:

Anyway, I was still enjoying the ride until the last couple of pages. Guess Jump really doesnt like cancelling things and just pretends they could keep series going.

You never know when an author will become a big author and suddenly there will be a demand for their older work. Like no cared about Zombie Powder but after Bleach was a hit I['m sure they sold a few new copies. Or in a case like Shaman King, where the ratings drop so they end the series before the actual end… they try to do new stuff, it doesn't work out, and they're allowed to go back and put right what once went wrong.

Those are rarities to be sure, but I would not be surprised at all if after My Hero Academia runs its course, Barrage gets an animated series that gets more fleshed out and goes further than the actual manga did. Because that had a decent enough hook but was overall a pretty shallow early Dragonball copy and the inexperienced author just couldn't quite make it work.

FolhaS

Yeah, I get that take, but I was feeling like this series would break that ending mold just a bit.
And honestly it could actually be a plan for the series. The first part about destroying the Book and the second part about hunting the last monsters.

But I hope the author can keep going on his career. Pardon the bad word but he has potential, hes not there yet but future works could be very good if he gets there.

maxterdexter

I don’t want to search for it, but there is a change.org petition to revive this in another magazine because jump doesn’t know a hit when they have it.

Zack

How have you been around the internet since 2007 and can still take a change.org petition here seriously?

Coookie

Red Hood's final volume will contain an extra epilogue with a one year time skip

Nidhoeggr

Apparently this is a comment from the final volume, at least that's what I got from another thread on a different site:

"Originally, it was supposed to be a manga about two characters exploring a world and encountering creatures and other hunters along the way. After consideration with my editor, the story changed. However, for this extra, I wanted to give readers a small taste of what the story initially was about. I hope it meets your expectations!"

If that's true then this is probably one of the worst choices by an editor in recent memory. In any case, I hope we get to see some scraped story ideas and designs in the last volume.

black-leg jex

This isn't a surprise, it was clear that there was a huge story shift after the initial arc when interest began wanning. It always felt like an editor decision (although those inital chapters that brought the series down are still entirely the authors fault).

Robby

Wow, the artist is STILL blaming his editor for his own failings.

But here its just "well I was going to do the story BETTER but then my editor told me to make it dumb. Here's the GOOD way it would have been otherwise."

Obviously, I can't know for certain what the exact advice of the editor was, maybe it really was straight up the worst most sabotaging advice ever and he's a new editor with no experience , BUT…

I'm fairly sure the editor's advice was more "the two leads alone aren't really doing it, add some more characters or powers" and not "add incredibly boring forgettable characters"

And maybe "add some big bads that the audience can get invested in long term so that first arc had a point" and not "start breaking the fourth wall break where you complain about the reception being bad and reveal the mentor was actually bad."

The series was tanking before the end of the prologue section. They wouldn't have suggested a massive direction shift if it was doing great. The execution of adding in new elements and doing them so ham-fistedly and badly was on the writer.

Like they got onto the ship and were going to do a training arc. The ONLY character I remember out of that was the old man. He was interesting, had a neat story and I was invested in him... and he gets shipped off a few pages later because the training is too tough. He's made an example of even though none of the other suddenly introduced characters was at all interesting or given any panel time to show personality or backstory.

I mean, Dragonball had a complete direction shift after its first arc. The entire Pilof saga was just whatever, it wasn't until he introduced Krillin and did a tournament that the series took off, and that was a complete direction shift too.

Ivotas

Wow, this really is the gift that keeps on giving. It's incredible what a pathetic piece of work this person is (I refuse to call him mangaka because he clearly fails at being one).

In addition to what Robby already said, I'd like to add that whatever the suggestion by the editor was having the opening part eat up 3 (or was it 4) chapters is something that happened before any shift in tone happened. Back then people here already pointed out how this is a bit weird. I myself didn't consider it a negative but I could see how it can contribute to interest fading away if we stick for the intro for too long without adding something so spice things up quickly.

I'm not saying that the editor might not have made some bad calls. But even then you can express more gratitude to them and at least make it seem like you are aware of your own shortcomings. It just creates a better publich image. Especially in Japan were the face concept is huge and you generally first blame yourself if something went wrong. Just pathetic this guy. However it's entertaining to see happening, which is why I'm looking forward to any other thing he creates, just to see how he as a person reacts.

Robby

Yeah, if he had cut out chapters 2-5 entirely where it was just more werewolves and gone straight to "the outside world" where we see the walking tree and the crab carriage it might have done better. But that first arc was just… not good. Literally spent five chapters just doing what the first chapter already managed.

But then in chapter 6 we meet those two apprentice hunters, and they're neat. (That was probably the editor's advice.) And then we meat the big buff fire lady, and she's neat. But even at that point it was clear it ws already doign a big shift in suddenly introducing a ton of powered individuals. (All of whom made the lead even more dull)

And then it goes into a "training arc". That off cameras all the interesting training. And introduces like a dozen new characters. And off cameras anything interesting about them. And then it reveals the mentor figure was evil and that its already going the fourth wall break route.

And then it spends the next NINE chapters on a cops and robbers practice game where we don't care about any of the participants before jumping into its ending.

Just... that's on you dude. If an editor told you to do all those things the editor is getting fired.

Daz

If we take this statement as true, that should mean that all the meta-stuff that many people despised would have fallen directly after Editor intervention? And regardless, the new direction should have been subject to scrutiny by said editor before being sent out to publish? It just seems weird to simultaneously give the editor just enough power to enforce a new direction for the manga AND make them just helpless to prevent the artist from doing supposedly spiteful industry meta-commentary?
…its a lot of "we'll never know but surelys, most likelys, assumptions" that all converge to making the author and JUST the author come off as bad as possible. Like Dragonballs entire android arc is famously janky due to editor notes, they can be quite shitty, so why here this idea that "oh the offensive meta-text came after the editor wanted a new direction, that must mean the editor had offered some hypothetical GOOD ideas that were then mishandled into the BAD outcome by the author and then the greenhorn author overpowered the editor to bring his "spiteful tantrum" into the world".

Eh, I thought he had some chops. I'll still be checking out whatever he does next.

black-leg jex

Same. I think there was a lot of potential in the stories premise and I think the Meta stuff made a lot of sense given the context of the series, but the actual execution after Chapter 1 wasn't great. Really they should have had them leave after chapter 2 and done the other Wolf story in the next town to help break up the pace.

I also did like the side characters introduced, it was just the main character who was extremely plain.

Robby

If we take this statement as true, that should mean that all the meta-stuff that many people despised would have fallen directly after Editor intervention?

Because we can see where the series was being placed in the magazine, and know how readers were responding to it. It was already being put in the middle of the magazine by its third chapter, and in the bottom five by the end of the safe cancellation proof first 8 weeks. It never got a second color spread to try and push up interest in it.

The series was tanking and tanking hard it obviously needed some help.

Maybe the editor's advice was good, maybe it was the worst advice ever. Either way what the series started with wasn't working AT ALL for readers and it was going to be cancelled as soon as it had enough material for 2 volumes unless it did something to grab attention.

ANY editor worth their salt would have said "mix it up and try something different" at that point. The actual quality of the suggestions we'll never know, but we CAN see how the writer responded to criticism and readers not liking it. And it DID make it to three volumes, so maybe those sudden shifts staved the inevitable for a few more weeks.

Like Dragonballs entire android arc is famously janky due to editor notes, they can be quite shitty,

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure it was Toriyama's former editor that said the designs looked dumb that he listened to, as opposed to his actual current one at the time. So not someone he really needed to listen to, but someone whose judgement he respected? ) If it was his current editor he would have given those notes when he saw the designs, not after the chapters came out.

And the notes were more or less "an old man and a fat guy?" "those are just two kids" and "Cell's second form looks really dumb."

All of which are 100% true. It was good advice to tell him not to keep using those designs for months on end. Would Android 19 really have been a fun villain to watch for two years? If we'd really had Penguin Cell as his final form that would have just been… eww. No one would remember Cell fondly.

Toriyama still made the story interesting and kept tension and pacing high despite weird plot twists to accommodate those things. Sure, we know NOW why that jank was there and we can see the seams, but if you're just seeing the story it seems like unexpected plot twists and surprises and doesn't really pull you out of it.

Editors basically left him alone during Buu saga to do whatever he wanted just so he'd keep making it, and he made bonkers weird off the cuff pacing and story decisions there too. Like... every single choice involving Gohan.

We also know a lot of the advice Oda has gotten over the years and stuff that came from his team and a lot of the most iconic moments of the series are last minute changes and additions. Like the cherry blossoms in Drum or the Vivi farewell X or the Supernovas.

El-Matematico

Maybe the editor was actually that bad? People were memeing from the beginning about him being the same guy who edited Samurai 8 (and now he's apparently the editor of Earthchild). Still doesn't take away that the author is way too salty and looks unprofessional each time these hints come.

pariston_hill

Man either the editor is bad or has was given shit titles so far. Nevertheless the author can't stop shooting himself in the foot. At this track he may be back to be an assistant.

Ivotas

@El-Matematico:

Maybe the editor was actually that bad? People were memeing from the beginning about him being the same guy who edited Samurai 8 (and now he's apparently the editor of Earthchild). Still doesn't take away that the author is way too salty and looks unprofessional each time these hints come.

@pariston_hill:

Man either the editor is bad or has was given shit titles so far. Nevertheless the author can't stop shooting himself in the foot. At this track he may be back to be an assistant.

That's the thing, even if we could say it's all on the editor, the author just is showing the absolute wrong behaviour on how to deal with it. I'm not saying that he's not allowed to feel frustrated but this is a professional world and he has to show that he can be professional about it. He's totally shooting himself in the foot in terms of publich perception which is what matters so much more in Japan than in the west. But it does make for an entertaining shitshow to watch.

zeltrax225

hey on the good side at least this nihilism of his didn't erupt 4-5 years down the line when there is a significant amount of people invested into it and turn into a trainwreck.
The editor is such a convenient scapegoat though, like wow I can't believe Samurai 8 who was written by one of the most established names in the industry with a shit ton of experience actually has gone to shit because of an editor. Of course, Kishimoto was held at gunpoint, there's no way he's that bad right?

Daz

I just don't get the instinct to lump all of the "fault" entirely on either the author or the editor, given that we'll never ever know for sure who suggested what.

As for the authors handling of the whole situation, I am of course biased due to not finding the series all that bad, but a comment such as this is on itself pretty neutral, no? Its only by viewing it through a lens of pre-existing grievance that you can interpret it as some snide unprofessional remark. I mean I'm not japanese so I could be totally off base, maybe a casual reader would see the comment and consider it an extreme faux pas. Regardless, comments like this - to say nothing of the manga itself- need to be filtered through editors before being published by the biggest manga outlet in the world, if it was really some extreme breach of professionality I cannot comprehend how supposedly no one would catch onto it, or that they'd be somehow powerless to stop it from getting printed.
"The first-time author is being supremely unprofessional and bitter to the point of writing a trantrum into his manga itself! Too bad the entire publishing apparatus cannot stop this from happening"

zeltrax225

not that bad if you don't consider the Japanese culture of sub context and subtle signaling. this is 100% on him trying to shift his failure to someone else. heck, i would even argue it is bad even without the cultural lens.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Daz:

Regardless, comments like this - to say nothing of the manga itself- need to be filtered through editors before being published by the biggest manga outlet in the world, if it was really some extreme breach of professionality I cannot comprehend how supposedly no one would catch onto it, or that they'd be somehow powerless to stop it from getting printed.

yes and no, the use of words mention that himself and the editor discussed it together (shared responsibility) and nothing of the sort that says the editor straight up lead him to fail. because your casual readers who didn't following the entire saga wouldn't have thought much of it but those invested would instantly see the link because of his previous tantrums. anyone invested would know exactly what he is trying to say and lead to believe a certain way, but the sentence is still not straight out accusatory. He probably has more control or was aggressive in fighting for this statement, I don't know. its the same thing with game of thrones actors being vague or rolling their eyes when interviewed for the final season.

edit: I think it's cool that people want to believe that he was trying to be harbinger towards change in the office run by an presumed outdated japanese culture. And that his creative and his talent (as he so love to believe) was being surpassed by shitty editorial decisions. That's possible but he is also unprofessional, a whiner and shown signs of narcissism through his limited run. If you've read Bakuman and read mangaka documentaries, you kind of have an idea of how things work and the scope of editorial decisions. If you didn't, keep in mind that Chainsaw-man actually ran and was readable for young kids at a point of time. You can't even argue that Fujimoto(author of chainsaw) have more control and is not tied up by editorial decisions because he had more experienced when Kishimoto (Samurai is literally second in author power to Oda in Jump and his series still got axed. This guy's first few chapters wasn't even that good and his entire "visiting towns and meeting new hunters" premise sounds generic. He also either hasn't planned out what he wanted to write or lacked the conviction of pushing the story he want to tell, seeing how quickly he flip flopped.
Maybe the truth is that he just isn't that good and is full of himself. I give him full respect for his designs though and think he can still do well. But in this case, I'll call a spade a spade.

Daz

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Robby

It's not as if Naruto wasn't a complete shitshow for the last 10 years of it's run. A successful one, sure, but mostly on the pure momentum of its first few years. It's little surprise Kishi's next series didn't land.

Whatever Horikoshi does after he rushes MHA to a conclusion in the next three months probably won't land either.

And the series the Kenshin author did after Kenshin didn't win anyone over. No one cares about Buso Renkin.

It's actually really rare that manga authors get multiple long running hits. Takehashi is the only one I can think of with multiple major successes under her belt and even she hasn't had a big hit since Inu Yasha. Rin-Ne ran for 10 years and no one cares. I haven't heard a single thing about Mao. Toriyama had Dr. SLump and Dragonball and since then he's done nothing but shorts. Togashi did YYH and HxH. Akamatsu had Love Hina and Negima but you never hear about any of his other five series. Can you name anything else the Sailor Moon creator did? Takeuchi has worked on 11 different series, 7 of them after Sailor moon.

Two big hits are about all any author ever gets, and even that's rare.

Not just even within manga, in the novel world as well. J.K. Rowling is the best selling author n the planet but no one cares at all about the TEN books she wrote after Harry Potter. You didn't even know she'd written more than like 2 books after Harry Potter, right? But she's written TEN books since 2012 that aren't HP related and people stopped reporting them after the first like, two.

So "It was a successful author before and they aren't nailing it now" doesn't mean much. Hitting it twice is pretty rare.

@Daz:

I just don't get the instinct to lump all of the "fault" entirely on either the author or the editor, given that we'll never ever know for sure who suggested what.

I am relatively confident it wasn't the editor that told him to put into the story a fourth wall breaking rant that directly insulted the readers for not liking the direction of the story.

Any number of the bad decisions might have been the editor, but that one, the worst one, is almost certainly on the writer. As is the lack of characterization or making any of the characters interesting.

If the editor suggested "do a training arc" or "add more powers" and that clashed with what the writer wanted and he couldn't pull it off, that's sort of on both of them. If the editor said "You should insert a big muscle woman that controls fire because I have a fetish", that's the editor's fault.

But regardless of if the editor's advice was good or bad, the series was tanking and due to be cancelled before the obvious sudden shifts occurred. If they didn't try anything to course correct, that would have been a failing on the editor's part too.

I mean, we were all able to spot the sudden direction shift and comment on it before he broke the fourth wall, it was pretty obvious.

So you're saying that for japanese readers this would absolutely read as bitter unprofessionalism…and yet it somehow made it to publication? Everyone can pick up on the hidden signals except the people publishing his manga?

He phrased it nicely.

He didn't say "My editor ruined the manga." He said "I had planned to go in a different direction but then things changed."

It's NOT bad or harmful on its own, especially months apart from the other statements.

If that was the first thing ever said on the subject, wouldn't read anything into it at all.

But right here on a message board, where there is nothing inbetween and statements are practically back to back, it stands out a lot more.

Daz

@Robby:

I am relatively confident it wasn't the editor that told him to put into the story a fourth wall breaking rant that directly insulted the readers for not liking the direction of the story.

Any number of the bad decisions might have been the editor, but that one, the worst one, is almost certainly on the writer. As is the lack of characterization or making any of the characters interesting.

If the editor suggested "do a training arc" or "add more powers" and that clashed with what the writer wanted and he couldn't pull it off, that's sort of on both of them. If the editor said "You should insert a big muscle woman that controls fire because I have a fetish", that's the editor's fault.

Why this distinction that the ""Worst"" element of the newdirection MUST be entirely on the author though whereas the editor "only" gave constructive advice? Beyond it being a "cleaner", easier narrative? Is that a thing that would be assumed of all quickly cancelled and premise-scrambling manga series - the editor just gave good notes and its purely on the author for failing to execute? And again, regardless, this supposed "reader insulting" direction was then ultimately approved by the entire publishing system. Certainly no one stopped the author. Which means either the first-time author somehow strongarmed the biggest manga publisher in the world to publish his supposedly "objectively" reader-insulting ranting, or the people in power didn't really care…suggesting that they might not concieve it as "objectively" reader-insulting ranting?

zeltrax225

the whole point of it being passed is that it is not "objectively" reader-insulting ranting. its a meta commentary that only works if you've been following it online. the author has to be the one who pen and draw the chapter and if he refused to do otherwise, there's not much you can do as a magazine or an editor. what are you going to do if you run a weekly magazine? cancel the guy out of a sudden and then draw even more public eye attention once he decided to go all guns blazing on twitter? now you have your staff scrambling to work overtime to deal with this unnecessary shit and trying to fill his slot. or do you try to compromise, let him pull his tantrum in a way that is not straight out accusatory and can be only picked up a certain group of readers? and once he is done, he can pack his bags and you still won't suffer any damage. I would be more complied to agree with you if jump didn't run weekly and they aren't also held hostage by the making of their own system.