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    Yamato's Role in the Story

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    • BobLoblaw
      BobLoblaw @King Cannon
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      @King:

      Exact mythology doesn't mean much. Chinese dragons are symbols of wisdom, which Kaido is anything but.

      Plus, by the end of the arc, there won't be local demons anymore. And if Momo does become a huge ass dragon as it is being foreshadowed, then Yamato being around will be irrelevant.

      Kaido may not represent wisdom, but Momo might. As for mythology itself, we see the tale of Momotaro playing out right now. I don't think anything mythological should be categorically disregarded at this point. OP as a series has had a ton of symbolism along with an overlap of history and mythology.

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      • electricmastro
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        • Clessenur
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          It's pretty clear she will join Straw Hats, but what will be her role in the crew? Lookout? Brewer?

          "In mad world, only the mad are sane."

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          • electricmastro
            electricmastro @Clessenur
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            @Clessenur:

            It's pretty clear she will join Straw Hats, but what will be her role in the crew? Lookout? Brewer?

            I'm most inclined to think bodyguard at this point.

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            • Clessenur
              Clessenur @electricmastro
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              @electricmastro:

              I'm most inclined to think bodyguard at this point.

              That sounds kinda odd for a crew that risks each others life on a daily basis.

              "In mad world, only the mad are sane."

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              • Robby
                Robby @Clessenur
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                @Clessenur:

                That sounds kinda odd for a crew that risks each others life on a daily basis.

                Sure but an explicit point has been made this arc that Luffy needs escorts so he can save his energy for the big fights. ANd that Nami and Usopp's usual trap tactics just don't work when there's an a enemy that can get up to them and tear through them.

                Yeah they'll still need to do their solo battles in the final arcs, but having protection won't hurt.

                Apprentice/ cabin boy is probably a better position though. The juxtaposition of being a super tough high end fighter, but with zero sailing experience, feels like an Oda joke.

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                • TLC
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                  I assumed it'd be a chronicler of their adventures like Oden.

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                  • MiyamotoMusashi
                    MiyamotoMusashi @King Cannon
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                    @King:

                    Guys, do not forget that characters struggling about leaving or staying is not a new thing in this series.

                    Sanji, Chopper and Franky have all went through it. They all felt like they had a duty to achieve by staying, but eventually decided to leave.

                    Vivi is the only person who has ever chosen to remain, but that was not due to duty, but because she genuinely loved Arabasta. Yamato, if he's supposed to stay in Wano, has to be out of free will, not because he feels guilty or responsible for Wano because he's some guardian deity of somesuch. What matters is what Yamato wants.

                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                    Well, Yamato already proved he has no problem leaving important Wano people behind if it means getting more involved in fights, so an innate sense of protection is unlikely.

                    Not to mention Yamato has no real attachment to Wano. He cares about it because it was Oden's country.

                    Sanji and Franky yeah, for Chopper, after Wapol was defeated, that was not the reason, his insecurities in regards to being a monster were.

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                    • Zik
                      Zik @TLC
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                      @TLC:

                      I assumed it'd be a chronicler of their adventures like Oden.

                      This'll be the actual skill while cabin boy is the joke.

                      Sort of how Robin is an assassin while also being an archeologist and poneglyph translator.

                      Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                      Last.fm

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                      • electricmastro
                        electricmastro @Robby
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                        @Robby:

                        Sure but an explicit point has been made this arc that Luffy needs escorts so he can save his energy for the big fights. ANd that Nami and Usopp's usual trap tactics just don't work when there's an a enemy that can get up to them and tear through them.

                        Yeah they'll still need to do their solo battles in the final arcs, but having protection won't hurt.

                        Apprentice/ cabin boy is probably a better position though. The juxtaposition of being a super tough high end fighter, but with zero sailing experience, feels like an Oda joke.

                        Yeah, I think a dedicated escort/bodyguard would be appreciated. There was even a specific point made about Luffy needing to conserve power by not defeating too many enemies all at once, before it basically came to Yamato needing hold Kaido off from hurting anyone else after Luffy lost Round 2.

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                        • electricmastro
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                          So in addition to going out to sea with Luffy, Yamato wants to not be alone, have people who believe in her, and have people who accept her, all while being free. I suppose that lends to a little more potential towards Yamato joining the crew.

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                          • G
                            Ghidorah Guy
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                            It'd be funny if it turns out Yamato gets easily seasick.

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                            • Gol D. Silvers
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                              I like Yamato and would want to see more of the character in the future, past Wano.

                              Match-up wise, I'd love Yamato to fight Weevil. Two "sons" of Emperors.

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                              • G
                                Ghidorah Guy @Robby
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                                @Robby:

                                The fact that Kaidou wants to use "guardian of Wano" as a further chain to hold Yamato there means its all the more reason to break free.

                                Like, Yamato is actively fighting AGAINST that role.

                                The role as conceived by Kaido, ie a tyrannical Shogun carrying out his will. What if Yamato were simply to pursue on her own conception of the role of Wano's protector, of her own free will?

                                One could also argue Yamato outright dismissing any thoughts of remaining on in Wano specifically due to her father would in a sense constitute Yamato yet remaining shackled by her father's influence, as Ace once alluded to – for whatever odd reason, out of the blue-- in their first meeting; allowing her resentment to sway her decisions.

                                That's not an argument for or against Yamato joining, just saying. Whatever guides their decisions in the coming future ( I think she'll leave ), I don't think any bitterness centered around rebellious pushback against Kaidad will necessarily factor into it, one way or the other. Obviously, her experiences have had a hand in shaping her desires and wishes throughout her life, but I don't see her reasoning being defined by opposition to his wishes, tainted in a sense, ie I can't, won't be Wano's protector because that's what HE would've wanted!

                                As others have said, it'd be enough to say she'd already have fulfilled her "duties" as Oden/the Mikami as is, that Wano would be in good hands without her having to stick around, that she'd skip ala Oden to pursue her dreams, etc…

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                                • electricmastro
                                  electricmastro @Ghidorah Guy
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                                  @Ghidorah:

                                  The role as conceived by Kaido, ie a tyrannical Shogun carrying out his will. What if Yamato were simply to pursue on her own conception of the role of Wano's protector, of her own free will?

                                  One could also argue Yamato outright dismissing any thoughts of remaining on in Wano specifically due to her father would in a sense constitute Yamato yet remaining shackled by her father's influence, as Ace once alluded to – for whatever odd reason, out of the blue-- in their first meeting; allowing her resentment to sway her decisions.

                                  That's not an argument for or against Yamato joining, just saying. Whatever guides their decisions in the coming future ( I think she'll leave ), I don't think any bitterness centered around rebellious pushback against Kaidad will necessarily factor into it, one way or the other. Obviously, her experiences have had a hand in shaping her desires and wishes throughout her life, but I don't see her reasoning being defined by opposition to his wishes, tainted in a sense, ie I can't, won't be Wano's protector because that's what HE would've wanted!

                                  As others have said, it'd be enough to say she'd already have fulfilled her "duties" as Oden/the Mikami as is, that Wano would be in good hands without her having to stick around, that she'd skip ala Oden to pursue her dreams, etc…

                                  I honestly find it really hard to believe in justifying Yamato staying in Wano at this point for how much she has expressed in wanting to leave after being trapped there for at least 20 years and One Piece in general embracing the concepts of freedom and exploration. Nothing in the story so far inclines me further believe that she'll stay honestly, despite what Kaido said.

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                                  • G
                                    Ghidorah Guy @electricmastro
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                                    @electricmastro:

                                    I honestly find it really hard to believe in justifying Yamato staying in Wano at this point for how much she has expressed in wanting to leave after being trapped there for at least 20 years and One Piece in general embracing the concepts of freedom and exploration. Nothing in the story so far inclines me further believe that she'll stay honestly, despite what Kaido said.

                                    Which is completely fair and reasonable. Nothing wrong a little discussion and idle speculation, is there?

                                    Just saying, never say never; if Oda wanted to unveil new details, take things in another direction, he could.

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                                    • King Cannon
                                      King Cannon @Ghidorah Guy
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                                      @Ghidorah:

                                      The role as conceived by Kaido, ie a tyrannical Shogun carrying out his will. What if Yamato were simply to pursue on her own conception of the role of Wano's protector, of her own free will?

                                      Because if that were the case, Oda could've easily written him as such. Why not just have Yamato say he wants to be Wano's guardian by his own terms?

                                      Oda has never really subverted a character's wish before. Even the likes of Sanji and Franky, who tried to act tough and stay behind out of duty, were clearly shown to be interested in leaving because that was exactly what their flashbacks depicted. We knew Sanji wanted to find All Blue and that Franky wanted to create his own ultimate battleship, goals that could only be achieved by setting out.

                                      It would be weird to have a character who wishes to set out of their home just decide to stay behind. It would go against the general theme of the series where people leave their comfort zones to pursue happiness.

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                                      • electricmastro
                                        electricmastro @King Cannon
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                                        @King:

                                        Because if that were the case, Oda could've easily written him as such. Why not just have Yamato say he wants to be Wano's guardian by his own terms?

                                        Oda has never really subverted a character's wish before. Even the likes of Sanji and Franky, who tried to act tough and stay behind out of duty, were clearly shown to be interested in leaving because that was exactly what their flashbacks depicted. We knew Sanji wanted to find All Blue and that Franky wanted to create his own ultimate battleship, goals that could only be achieved by setting out.

                                        It would be weird to have a character who wishes to set out of their home just decide to stay behind. It would go against the general theme of the series where people leave their comfort zones to pursue happiness.

                                        And that if it resulted that Yamato decided to stay in Wano, it might risk having all the previous panels mentioning of wanting to leave Wano and disappointment of not being able to leave with Ace be a waste of time.

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                                        • Zik
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                                          The whole Yamato staying is just a bad idea by ppl who are not thinking it through. They just leave the rest up to Its to somehow make it good writing while they ignore everything Oda has set up that points down the clearly stated path.

                                          Similar to why some ppl think Yamato will drop the whole Oden thing when that why really isn't anything Oda has presented as an issue that needs to be addressed or dealt with.

                                          It's a baseless sort of prediction that ignores themes and the storytelling.

                                          Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                          Last.fm

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                                          • electricmastro
                                            electricmastro @Zik
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                                            @Zik:

                                            Similar to why some ppl think Yamato will drop the whole Oden thing when that why really isn't anything Oda has presented as an issue that needs to be addressed or dealt with.

                                            Well Orochi and Kaido killing a big hope for Wano by killing Oden is an issue, and the frustration and tears Yamato had seems to have led her to conclude that Oden's will must be carried on in the aftermath of his murder and her best solution she came up with was dressing up as him, using his name as an alternate name, attempting to live up to his expectations, and be heroic like the hero he was as opposed to staying more true to herself, in addition to wanting freedom like how he had. If Yamato's motivations for being Oden are to free Wano and herself, then why at that point should the plot demand that she still be Oden after gaining freedom for Wano and herself?

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                                            • G
                                              Ghidorah Guy @King Cannon
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                                              @King:

                                              Because if that were the case, Oda could've easily written him as such. Why not just have Yamato say he wants to be Wano's guardian by his own terms?

                                              Because it's simply something that Oda could always address later? Hypothetically speaking, say something that naturally comes about upon Yamato mingling with the people of the mainland once more, realizing they're still needed there? And for that matter, who says it need become Yamato's permanent status quo? For all we know, Oda could always pull a Jinbe or some such with her, depicting her staying behind to help the people of Wano rebuild until setting out to pursue her dream at a later point in time, be it on her own or eventually joining the Strawhats at some later stage?

                                              Again, not saying that will happen, something I believe will happen, but just saying: it's always good to keep an open mind.

                                              Oda has never really subverted a character's wish before.

                                              You mean Strawhat crewmember's wishes, because it's certainly happened before with others.

                                              Besides which, that means everything set in stone? That Oda will never change things up, has nothing else to say on the nature of the pursuit of dreams? I bet he does, and I'm banking on it. Whether Yamato's storyline falls within this scope is another matter, but anywho; we've been given plenty indications already imo that one's dreams and desires in the world of One Piece aren't exempt from being subject to change, to being placed on the backburner, or coming to fruition in other forms, even those one may not initially expect. And that in itself falls squarely under one of the guiding core philosophies of One Piece, as I see it: there are no absolutes.

                                              As such, more to the discussion at hand ( and really, tying into the entire Wano narrative as a whole ), one shouldn't rush to conclusions based on fixed perceptions of patterns, surefire odds, fate, prophecies, and the like, because that is precisely the overall point I see Oda pushing overall, as well as a sign of things to come.

                                              For instance, let's talk about Tama. Because if we're to take precedent as dogma, that means it's she who's set to become the next crewmember, having received the female-specific MARK OF THE CHOSEN ONE, ie Luffy placing his strawhat on her head. And she's one with her own stated dream too. So that means no room for Yamato, sorry guys, Strawhats have never had two new members join at the same time, not happening.

                                              Naaaah.

                                              –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                              @electricmastro:

                                              And that if it resulted that Yamato decided to stay in Wano, it might risk having all the previous panels mentioning of wanting to leave Wano and disappointment of not being able to leave with Ace be a waste of time.

                                              One could say the same with respect to Tama, no?

                                              Apart from that, this need not necessarily be the case, for a number of a reasons…again, hypothetically speaking. For one, the arc has yet to even conclude, so it's too soon to make such calls, as we've yet to have access the the complete picture. While some readers may deem these scenes to be a waste of time per this scenario, that doesn't preclude the possibility of Oda himself having a different view of it, of having intended these sequences to serve some other purpose that'd ultimately become clearer as the story unfolds and wraps up.

                                              But again, I'll keep repeating for clarification: not a definite by any means, and not what I see happening myself.

                                              @electricmastro:

                                              Well Orochi and Kaido killing a big hope for Wano by killing Oden is an issue, and the frustration and tears Yamato had seems to have led her to conclude that Oden's will must be carried on in the aftermath of his murder and her best solution she came up with was dressing up as him, using his name as an alternate name, attempting to live up to his expectations, and be heroic like the hero he was as opposed to staying more true to herself, in addition to wanting freedom like how he had. If Yamato's motivations for being Oden are to free Wano and herself, then why at that point should the plot demand that she still be Oden after gaining freedom for Wano and herself?

                                              https://i.ibb.co/tPf1g99/Screen-Shot-2021-09-12-at-6-53-57-PM.png

                                              While it need not be something that has to be addressed, I do think it will be, as it'd tie into the presiding themes of Identity and Role currently at play, in tune with some prevalent overarching themes at hand.

                                              Me, I personally foresee the endgoal of Yamato's character arc being Yamato's realization that they need not in some literal, exact sense be Oden in order to simply live up to his example and ideals, fulfill his role, and carry on his legacy. By the same token – and this might be a point of controversy -- this will extend to his gender as well, in that Yamato need not need identity as a man because Oden happened to be a man.

                                              That said, I'm also expecting ( though not guaranteed, of course ) that Oda will cap off the gender topic once and for all by directly proceeding to cement that Yamato has either always identified as male prior to Oden's influence or, perhaps more fittingly, will simply declare that they yet remain a man because that is what Yamato chooses to identify as of his own free will, independent of any association with Oden's role; remains to be seen, of course.

                                              Overall idea and message I believe Oda intends to convey here through Yamato ( for one ) is that one need not, should not, be compelled to arbitrarily adhere to some exact checklist of prerequisites when taking up a cause, following one's will, etc...nor should others expect as much, as we the readers and the characters are sure to learn soon enough in future cases imo. As mentioned before, all falls within the parameters of the themes of Anti-Absolutism and Freedom of Choice.

                                              All that said, I could always see Oda going another alternate route as well, though one that need not clash with the above: Yamato still holding on to the Oden identity, albeit to a more toned down extent. Really, it'd be little different from what's already been established previously; as others have already pointed, Yamato identification as Oden has never really excluded his identification as Yamato either. The long-running themes of identity, role, coming to terms with one's past/origins, legacy, embracing everything….Oda's been gradually interweaving these and will continue to do so going forward, so this could ultimately culminate with Yamato ( and others ) declaring or adopting a mentality along the lines of something like this:

                                              I am "Oden"…I am "Kaido"...I am oni and samurai ( or whatever else )...I am man and woman..,but above all, I am me. That's the very rough gist of it: Yamato no longer proclaiming to be Oden per se, but not exactly discarding the identity altogether…Yamato being Oden but also not Oden...
                                              an acknowledgment that all these various elements and figures may have shaped Yamato to an extent, but no one piece defines them either, which is the thematic point being made. I imagine we'll also see this play out in sync with other characters like Sanj, Zoro, and others coming to terms with their own pasts, particularly as it pertains to Sanji's current ongoing struggles to reconcile his Germa background...and humanity. No coinydink there.

                                              Above all else, I fully believe Taoist philosophy, Quantum Mechanics, and other such related schools of thought run at the heart of One Piece overall, and that's what further colors my reasoning here; Yamato is just one of many other examples we'll be seeing ( and have seen already ) of functional paradoxes at work. And this will further underscore everything else to come.
                                              Who knows? Saw someone propose the idea that Yamato may adopt a new name altogether. Can't rule that out as a possibility either, and would mesh with everything I've outlined. One could say Oda' already planted the seeds with the whole Pirate/Ninja/Samurai/Mink Alliance gag.

                                              "I am ______ aka Oden aka Yamato, son of Oden/Daughter of Kaido/ samurai oni pirate yadda yadda"

                                              On a somewhat related note, it also jives with my own theory of what the D may actually stand for...an abbreviation of a very, very long string of existing or suggested names that the collective D clan members of long ago agreed to combine together because the stubborn idiots couldn't agree on any any one particular designated name. All this time, fans have been wracking their brains over what the D specifically stands for, the mystery behind the supposed secrecy, when the answer may be that it doesn't stand for any one word, and the clan name was abbreviated out of practical necessity 😕

                                              But yeah, that's my piece.

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                                                legumes @Ghidorah Guy
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                                                @Ghidorah:

                                                Because it's simply something that Oda could always address later? Hypothetically speaking, say something that naturally comes about upon Yamato mingling with the people of the mainland once more, realizing they're still needed there? And for that matter, who says it need become Yamato's permanent status quo? For all we know, Oda could always pull a Jinbe or some such with her, depicting her staying behind to help the people of Wano rebuild until setting out to pursue her dream at a later point in time, be it on her own or eventually joining the Strawhats at some later stage?

                                                Again, not saying that will happen, something I believe will happen, but just saying: it's always good to keep an open mind.

                                                The problem is, as many people have stated previously, is that why would Oda just….spend the greater part of the year, planning and writing and drawing all these things building up to Yamato joining and then...toss it into a bin for...what exactly? He's a good enough author to pen down his intent on paper, and there has been 0 indication that yamato wants to or needs to stay.
                                                There's nothing to keep an open mind about when the author himself is stating the facts as explicitly as he can. Like i'm not going to entertain perona or hancock arguments for nakama just because "it's good to keep an open mind and Oda can change tack whenever he wants". Sorry for being blunt, but that's just a way to justify fanfic as a possibility (it doesn't work that way when there's no text, even subtext supporting it).

                                                @Ghidorah:

                                                Besides which, that means everything set in stone? That Oda will never change things up, has nothing else to say on the nature of the pursuit of dreams? I bet he does, and I'm banking on it. Whether Yamato's storyline falls within this scope is another matter, but anywho; we've been given plenty indications already imo that one's dreams and desires in the world of One Piece aren't exempt from being subject to change, to being placed on the backburner, or coming to fruition in other forms, even those one may not initially expect. And that in itself falls squarely under one of the guiding core philosophies of One Piece, as I see it: there are no absolutes.

                                                As such, more to the discussion at hand ( and really, tying into the entire Wano narrative as a whole ), one shouldn't rush to conclusions based on fixed perceptions of patterns, surefire odds, fate, prophecies, and the like, because that is precisely the overall point I see Oda pushing overall, as well as a sign of things to come.

                                                For instance, let's talk about Tama. Because if we're to take precedent as dogma, that means it's she who's set to become the next crewmember, having received the female-specific MARK OF THE CHOSEN ONE, ie Luffy placing his strawhat on her head. And she's one with her own stated dream too. So that means no room for Yamato, sorry guys, Strawhats have never had two new members join at the same time, not happening.

                                                Naaaah.

                                                –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                One could say the same with respect to Tama, no?

                                                Yes. Oda has always been super explicit about the whole dreams matter, from how a person's will/dreams continues to exist past their mortal selfs or whether a villain who's dreams have been crushed no longer have a "stake" per say to fight for. There's a very clear belief that the strawhats will achieve their dreams clearly at the end of the series, whether it's shown at the final conflict or as an epilogue. And that every single SH's dreams have remained super consistent from the moment of their declaration to the current moment so i'm really not sure what you've even talking about here.

                                                Also there's probably a grand total of 1 person vocally pushing for tama in these forums (from what i see) and even they don't use "strawhat on my head" as an argument or have a dream (she has a dream other than to see wano be free?). So that's completely irrelevant to whatever you're trying to argue (plus the fact she's 8).

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                                                • electricmastro
                                                  electricmastro @legumes
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                                                  @Ghidorah:

                                                  One could say the same with respect to Tama, no?

                                                  Well Tama seemed fine staying on Wano to train herself up to be a skilled kunoichi.

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                                                    Ghidorah Guy @legumes
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                                                    @legumes:

                                                    The problem is, as many people have stated previously, is that why would Oda just….spend the greater part of the year, planning and writing and drawing all these things building up to Yamato joining and then...toss it into a bin for...what exactly?

                                                    I've already briefly touched upon this, in terms of what Oda could be looking to accomplish under such a scenario. I'm not going to write a novella here detailing my entire analysis of Wano and OP as a whole, what Oda's been setting up, and where I think he plans to take things, but basically, it could serve to further underscore some key major thematic points on the topic of perspective shifts, the malleability of dreams and desires, absolutism, freedom of choice, and many more.

                                                    Basically, here's one of the core ideas I see evolving out of Wano, based on what Oda's working up to all this time: nothing is set in stone, be it fate, dreams…there's room for change, flexibility, varying interpretations...exceptions to every rule. Very significant, far-reaching implications here as to what's come. Whether Oda would use Yamato staying on to underline this, that's another matter. But it's possible. And even then, it need not even be permanent.

                                                    Problem is, people seem to have misconstrued Yamato's importance and relevance to the overall plot here with somehow hinging on their becoming a Strawhat member; there's a lot more at play here meriting the time and focus that's been placed on Yamato alone.

                                                    What's more, in an arc rife with the themes of deceit and misdirection, in which Roger's flashback further emphasized the underlying theme of misconceptions …methinks people really need to pause and think about Oda what is setting up to do here on multiple fronts, both in terms of Yamato possibly joining, the Raid, and a number of other things. To me, the warning signs are clear: don't rush to conclusions. In fact, he's been rather hammering that point throughout Wano, even as he's been slyly attempting to string readers along..

                                                    Again, not saying I believe Yamato falls in this boat, but it's not impossible with the way things are shaking up.

                                                    He's a good enough author to pen down his intent on paper, and there has been 0 indication that yamato wants to or needs to stay.
                                                    There's nothing to keep an open mind about when the author himself is stating the facts as explicitly as he can. Like i'm not going to entertain perona or hancock arguments for nakama just because "it's good to keep an open mind and Oda can change tack whenever he wants". Sorry for being blunt, but that's just a way to justify fanfic as a possibility (it doesn't work that way when there's no text, even subtext supporting it).

                                                    Well, that's the thing of it: authorial intent, subtext…it's largely subjective, isn't it, especially when taking into account that we're talking about attempts to predict what an author is or isn't going to do before the story's finished?

                                                    There may currently be no explicit indication of Yamato wanting or needing to stay spelled out in crayon, but the overall subtext laid out throughout Wano and the whole story in general, as I see it, certainly laid the groundwork that could potentially lead to some outcome wherein Yamato could change their mind, modify their plans a bit, or even at least even briefly reconsider at some juncture. So no, when I say one should keep an open mind, it has less to do with Oda flipping things on a dime in a vacuum for the mere sake of doing so, and more with people acknowledging the mere possibility they may have been looking at things wrong ( asking a lot in this day and age, I know ).

                                                    Yes. Oda has always been super explicit about the whole dreams matter, from how a person's will/dreams continues to exist past their mortal selfs or whether a villain who's dreams have been crushed no longer have a "stake" per say to fight for*. There's a very clear belief** that the strawhats will achieve their dreams clearly** at the end of the series, whether it's shown at the final conflict or as an epilogue. And that every single SH's dreams have remained super consistent from the moment of their declaration to the current moment so i'm really not sure what you've even talking about here.

                                                    *more accurately, Oda mentioned how Luffy crushing the villains' dreams gave them a second chance to fight for their original dreams. Losing one dream to pursue another…keep that in the back of our head. This is going to become a major topic real soon imo.

                                                    **Clear to fans, you mean. But what's "clear" to the fans may not necessarily translate to a given as to what will see print...at least not in the exact way people think.

                                                    I've already touched upon it already here and elsewhere, but Wano is gearing up on many levels to demonstrate that many things may not prove to be as clear-cut as people expect, things may not go the well people think ( see Roger's expectation that his son would be the next to travel to Laugh Tale for one such tease ). And how dreams, like prophecies, can also prove subject to "interpretation" or "revision." Well, don't take my word for it, but I'm pretty sure we're going to see the hopes and dreams of the Wano people for instance come to fruition....but not in the exact way people think it will, ie the Raid succeeding, Luffy being the "incarnation" of Joyboy ( or only candidate ), the means by which Wano's borders will be opened, the circumstances of Kaido's defeat etc.

                                                    You're probably familiar with the long simmering theory that Blackbeard's going to be the one to become Pirate King, yeah? I'll leave it at that. Basically, don't be shocked if Luffy and Co. will see their respective dreams "ruined" only to gain a second chance at fulfilling said dreams, albeit in a slightly altered form.

                                                    Anyway, let's put it this way: we'll see soon enough if the Raid itself will fail or not. If so, think back to this discussion we're having; it should prove a good indication as to where things are truly headed.

                                                    And if not, well, I'll just have to eat shit. Which is fine, I certainly never claimed I may not be wrong.

                                                    Also there's probably a grand total of 1 person vocally pushing for tama in these forums (from what i see) and even they don't use "strawhat on my head" as an argument or have a dream (she has a dream other than to see wano be free?). So that's completely irrelevant to whatever you're trying to argue (plus the fact she's 8).

                                                    Quite relevant, since (a) lest you forget, Tama made clear her own wish to set sail with Ace (b) it's a long recognized in the fandom at large. However many have taken advantage of that here or not is beside the point.

                                                    The point stands: Tama fits the formula too.

                                                    Frankly, I don't think it's any coincidence either. Oda knows more or less what fans are thinking, so he's seen fit to exploit this to not only keep people guessing but prove a point imo, as I've been outlining.

                                                    As to her age:

                                                    • Look at what we're seeing right now in Onigashima.

                                                    • Kids are no strangers to serving on pirate crews

                                                    • Think back to what I mentioned about the core theme of there existing exceptions to every rule, as well as the prerequisite Ace posed to Tama for joining sailing on his ship. Well, we just saw how Momo shot from 8 to 28; should Luffy try recycling Ace's demand, it's no stretch of the imagination to see how Tama could find a way to "cheat" to rapidly become an adult and "enchanting" Kunoichi.

                                                    That said, I think it's likely Momo will be de-aged by arc's end, so I foresee whatever means is used to be readily available to do the same for Tama, were she to go ahead with this ( strong chance ); if only to avoid the creepy prospect of adults with 8 year old minds running around on a permanent basis.

                                                    Well, with the exception of perhaps a "senile" Big Mom by Wano's end, anyways….but that's another theory and topic.

                                                    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                    @electricmastro:

                                                    Well Tama seemed fine staying on Wano to train herself up to be a skilled kunoichi.

                                                    With the expectation that Ace would return and fulfill his promise. But now Ace is dead, and Luffy's here. Writing's on the wall on this one, I think, so far as what Tama will propose to Luffy.

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                                                      King Cannon @Ghidorah Guy
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                                                      @Ghidorah:

                                                      I've already briefly touched upon this, in terms of what Oda could be looking to accomplish under such a scenario. I'm not going to write a novella here detailing my entire analysis of Wano and OP as a whole, what Oda's been setting up, and where I think he plans to take things, but basically, it could serve to further underscore some key major thematic points on the topic of perspective shifts, the malleability of dreams and desires, absolutism, freedom of choice, and many more.

                                                      Basically, here's one of the core ideas I see evolving out of Wano, based on what Oda's working up to all this time: nothing is set in stone, be it fate, dreams…there's room for change, flexibility, varying interpretations...exceptions to every rule. Very significant, far-reaching implications here as to what's come. Whether Oda would use Yamato staying on to underline this, that's another matter. But it's possible. And even then, it need not even be permanent.

                                                      Problem is, people seem to have misconstrued Yamato's importance and relevance to the overall plot here with somehow hinging on their becoming a Strawhat member; there's a lot more at play here meriting the time and focus that's been placed on Yamato alone.

                                                      What's more, in an arc rife with the themes of deceit and misdirection, in which Roger's flashback further emphasized the underlying theme of misconceptions …methinks people really need to pause and think about Oda what is setting up to do here on multiple fronts, both in terms of Yamato possibly joining, the Raid, and a number of other things. To me, the warning signs are clear: don't rush to conclusions. In fact, he's been rather hammering that point throughout Wano, even as he's been slyly attempting to string readers along..

                                                      Again, not saying I believe Yamato falls in this boat, but it's not impossible with the way things are shaking up.

                                                      I think you're vastly overthinking how Oda works.

                                                      He has never really gone full deceiver, and at his current age, I don't see him straying much from his patterns. I could expect it if he were younger and attempting to bring something new to the table, but as of now, he has little incentive to do so, especially with him wanting to wrap up all the myriad of plot points he already introduced beforehand.

                                                      That's why, at the beginning of this raid, people were expecting certain matchups that… ended up happening for the most part. Zoro and Sanji vs. King and Queen was a common guess and it's happening right now. He even introduced a completely unknown medicine from nowhere just to give Zoro a chance to fight again. Another one was Kin'emon striking down Kanjuro, which seemingly was not going to happen, but then did. This latter event happened because there was enough emotional investment in Kin'emon and Kanjuro's relationship coming all the way back in Dressrosa, and needed a satisfying conclusion.

                                                      Like, Oda can delay plotlines, but he eventually gets them done. He's not the master expectation subverter you think he is. His strengths have always been character writing, foreshadowing and set ups, not red herrings.

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                                                        Ghidorah Guy @King Cannon
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                                                        @King:

                                                        I think you're vastly overthinking how Oda works.

                                                        He has never really gone full deceiver, and at his current age, I don't see him straying much from his patterns. I could expect it if he were younger and attempting to bring something new to the table, but as of now, he has little incentive to do so, especially with him wanting to wrap up all the myriad of plot points he already introduced beforehand.

                                                        That's why, at the beginning of this raid, people were expecting certain matchups that… ended up happening for the most part. Zoro and Sanji vs. King and Queen was a common guess and it's happening right now. He even introduced a completely unknown medicine from nowhere just to give Zoro a chance to fight again. Another one was Kin'emon striking down Kanjuro, which seemingly was not going to happen, but then did. This latter event happened because there was enough emotional investment in Kin'emon and Kanjuro's relationship coming all the way back in Dressrosa, and needed a satisfying conclusion.

                                                        Like, Oda can delay plotlines, but he eventually gets them done. He's not the master expectation subverter you think he is. His strengths have always been character writing, foreshadowing and set ups, not red herrings.

                                                        We'll just have to agree to disagree there, as I think you've got Oda pegged all wrong, with heavy emphasis on the highlighted snippet there; are we already forgetting WCI?

                                                        But as I've said previously, arguing back and forth about it won't change a thing. It'll be easy enough to see what's what in the coming months.

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                                                              Well, at present, in chapters 1028-1032, I find it refreshing that Yamato left Momo with enough confidence to trust in him that he'll generate the flame clouds, but also willing enough to consider the reality that he might not make enough in time and chose to go off on her own to find the armory and minimize the damage from there. Admittedly it is disappointing she didn't get to interact with Kid, Law, Robin, and Brook despite being nearby them, though I was amused by the exchanges between her and Drake and Apoo. Am also interested to what happens in Yamato and Fuga attempting to stop Kazenbo too.

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                                                                I need a scene of Yamato in full wolf form holding Brook in her mouth and a well timed bone joke.

                                                                Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                Last.fm

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                                                                    So what will Yamato do after defeating Kazenbo?

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                                                                      Defeat CP0 and protect Robin.

                                                                      Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                      Last.fm

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                                                                        Marco was last seen going after Kazenbo, so I'm betting on Marco and Yamato meeting. Yamato will probably reckongnize Marco as Ace's crewmate, and Marco will probably deduce Yamato is Ace's friend from Wano. They'll team up to get rid of the bombs and defeat Kazenbo.

                                                                        I don't think Yamato's role in the raid ends there. The raid will probably be over soon after it, so we get to post-raid resolutions.

                                                                        Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                        • electricmastro
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                                                                          @Zik:

                                                                          Defeat CP0 and protect Robin.

                                                                          Interesting since that that could have happened earlier, but then Kazenbo appeared and purposefully kept Yamato from meeting Robin and Brook. I imagine she’s set on having some big intro with the rest of the Straw Hats honestly.

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                                                                            @Deicide:

                                                                            Marco was last seen going after Kazenbo, so I'm betting on Marco and Yamato meeting. Yamato will probably reckongnize Marco as Ace's crewmate, and Marco will probably deduce Yamato is Ace's friend from Wano. They'll team up to get rid of the bombs and defeat Kazenbo.

                                                                            I don't think Yamato's role in the raid ends there. The raid will probably be over soon after it, so we get to post-raid resolutions.

                                                                            Actually, I don't think it was clarified if Marco was going after the Kazenbo. Their conversation implied only Izo was.

                                                                            But then that leads to the question of what exactly Marco is doing right now.

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                                                                              @King:

                                                                              Actually, I don't think it was clarified if Marco was going after the Kazenbo. Their conversation implied only Izo was.

                                                                              But then that leads to the question of what exactly Marco is doing right now.

                                                                              Yeah, you are correct, but Izo asked for Marco's help, and last we seen, just Izo arrived, and went to the opposite direction of Kazenbo. So, it's not farfetched to assume Marco and Izo split in different directions once they found Kazenbo's path.

                                                                              Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                                @Deicide:

                                                                                Yeah, you are correct, but Izo asked for Marco's help, and last we seen, just Izo arrived, and went to the opposite direction of Kazenbo. So, it's not farfetched to assume Marco and Izo split in different directions once they found Kazenbo's path.

                                                                                Kazenbo has one path though. Why would they split up when it's heading directly down?

                                                                                It's made of fire and easy to track.

                                                                                Its more likely that Marco just dropped Izo off after asking to head in that direction. Marco may be off doing his own thing as the place burns down.

                                                                                Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                                Last.fm

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                                                                                  @Zik:

                                                                                  Kazenbo has one path though. Why would they split up when it's heading directly down?

                                                                                  It's made of fire and easy to track.

                                                                                  Yeah, but they may have reached its path on any point he passed in descent. So Izo went up, reaching Kin'emon and Kiku, while Marco may have gone down.

                                                                                  Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

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                                                                                    @Deicide:

                                                                                    Yeah, but they may have reached its path on any point he passed in descent. So Izo went up, reaching Kin'emon and Kiku, while Marco may have gone down.

                                                                                    Going off of where they went and Izo meeting CP0 they both had to have gone down from where they were.

                                                                                    It's not like there was a hole all the way to the bottom and the roof so you couldn't tell which way it went.

                                                                                    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?

                                                                                    Last.fm

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                                                                                          After more reflection, I suppose Yamato's role would be leaning towards brewer, even though I had been pondering on a combat-related role more beforehand.

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                                                                                            Shin10 Bukuro @electricmastro
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                                                                                            I believe similar to how Luffy inherited Roger's will, Yamato has inherited Oden's will. Oden was laughing even in death because he knew his will would live on no matter what, and he would still get to see the Dawn.

                                                                                            So, I think Yamato will take over for what Oden's role would have been: Assisting Joyboy to bring about the Dawn, by acting as the protector of an important leader of the Dawn (who also happens to be his son).

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                                                                                            • electricmastro
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                                                                                              Looks like we'll be getting into Yamato's fate going forward soon enough.

                                                                                              alt text

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                                                                                                If Yamato is Oden, I guess he is meant to boil, no?

                                                                                                Remember, remember, the 5th of November

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                                                                                                  @flandrian15 said in Yamato’s role in the story.:

                                                                                                  If Yamato is Oden, I guess he is meant to boil, no?

                                                                                                  Well that's definitely one reason Yamato shouldn't live the same way Oden did. >_>

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                                                                                                    Great to have the forums back before Yamato actually joins the crew 🙂 When the next chapter comes out, we can all celebrate here!

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                                                                                                      Living like Oden as in following your heart's desire I suppose. And Yamato has made it clear numerous times that he wants to travel with Luffy and the crew. Next chapter I foresee a run for the ship reminiscent of Usopp's run when he rejoined in Water 7.

                                                                                                      We all float down here!

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                                                                                                      • flandrian15
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                                                                                                        Living like Oden is actually not good. Great guy 'n all but dancing like a fool for years only to obviously be backstabbed, leaving his country, boiling to death are actually not such great accomplishments...

                                                                                                        Remember, remember, the 5th of November

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