I hope we get to see the other Straw Hats fight soon, it seems like a good point to switch to them now that Luffy is finally going one v. one with Kaido
Chapter 1,010: Color of the Supreme King
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Have we considered, in the realm of Crocodile, Moria and other guys who tussled with the big leagues but were taken out by the Strawhats, that haki and other relevant skills can fade with time the same way it can get stronger? Like any muscle, if you don't work it out regularly, it gets weaker. Particularly so if you lose your willfulness and start aiming lower after a crushing defeat. Crocodile decided to work smarter instead of harder (Moria just decided to stop working) and stopped being involved in anything that would require the use of haki.
We don't know that Luffy fought either of these guys at their peak. We don't know what skills they might have had before they changed how they operate.
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@uniaka:
Wait, could Sanji's DJ be based on CoC too. Sanji puts his will on his kicks to kick you harder and his will burns hotter then fire, reason it doesn't burn him too.
Lol @Sanji awakening CoC, he's too weak willed for that
On this week chapter I predicts we'll have a "filler" chapter of sorts where ppl are running around as per usual
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Like King Cannon said, there's no evidence Moria or Croc have haki. I'd say it's likely Croc has an awakened fruit, but that's it.
Neither Croc nor Moria are hand-to-hand fighters. Both rely on their DFs (and cheap shots) to win fights.Moria even traps and crushes Luffy in Shadows Asgard form, but Luffy clearly says he felt nothing because he's rubber, indicating Moria was not using haki at all, thus the entire strength of Moria's attack was negated.
Now, about Lucci, he certainly was a hell of a fighter, but Gear 3rd was clearly able to surpass his defenses, and Gear 2nd was quick enough to be a match for him. He still was able to fight hand-to-hand and even had Rokuogan that looks suspiciously like an advanced CoA attack. Luffy was just able to outlast him throught willpower and resilience.
Haki is not a flawless power. It gives an edge, just like a DF would do, but it's not a "I have it no one without it can beat me" trump card. Even Kaido and Big Mom are monsters thanks to their abnormal bodies rather than haki alone.
I totally take Rokuougan to be CoA attack and one on the level of what Hyogoro just taught Luffy. However I think that Lucchi himself wasn't aware what it is and developed it by himself. I mean from how I understand things, Tekkai isn't even tied to CoA in the end otherwise it couldn't have been broken by pre-Haki Strawhats. But just like Enel has CoO without knowing it I would expect Lucchi to have very strong CoA. Croc and Moria however don't strike me as people that had it back then. But if Bellamy could get it I see no reason why those two shouldn't be able to learn it.
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I totally take Rokuougan to be CoA attack and one on the level of what Hyogoro just taught Luffy. However I think that Lucchi himself wasn't aware what it is and developed it by himself. I mean from how I understand things, Tekkai isn't even tied to CoA in the end otherwise it couldn't have been broken by pre-Haki Strawhats. But just like Enel has CoO without knowing it I would expect Lucchi to have very strong CoA. Croc and Moria however don't strike me as people that had it back then. But if Bellamy could get it I see no reason why those two shouldn't be able to learn it.
Have we considered, in the realm of Crocodile, Moria and other guys who tussled with the big leagues but were taken out by the Strawhats, that haki and other relevant skills can fade with time the same way it can get stronger? Like any muscle, if you don't work it out regularly, it gets weaker. Particularly so if you lose your willfulness and start aiming lower after a crushing defeat. Crocodile decided to work smarter instead of harder (Moria just decided to stop working) and stopped being involved in anything that would require the use of haki.
We don't know that Luffy fought either of these guys at their peak. We don't know what skills they might have had before they changed how they operate.
Thats why I said I am surprised that it was mentioned by Oda that Crocodile was defeated by WB himself. A person with some haki can't even get near the emperor as we have seen let alone do anything in the NW without it. Same goes to Moria. Do you really think he would have put up a good fight with Kaido of all people if he didn't have haki? So yes there is no clear indication they had it at the time when Luffy defeated them, but I doubt they would have gained the name and fame they had with just DF powers. Caribou was a prime example of how DF alone can't get anything done in NW.
Lucci is weird for me. I mean the whole CP9 are. The elite assassins of WG does not know the most important power system in the world or they dont use it (as per the reader) when a pirate group declares war against the WG? Why would they do that when Lucci and others know the SH are no pushovers?
I feel both Croc and Moria were bellow their peak when they fought Luffy. Both were in Paradise for decades, fighting lower threats and newbie pirates, so they grew complacent and overconfident (and lazy, in the case of Moria). However, I don't think they'd forget haki entirely, only their reflexes and strength would get dulled.
I think of Moria and Croc as pirates that rushed throught power in Paradise and went too early to the New World. Both were present in Roger's execution, and Moria was defeated by Kaido one year later, an event in which his whole crew was massacrated and left him with serious PTSD. The way he talks to the Straw Hats in the end of Thriller Bark makes me feel he was much like Luffy pre-TS, thought himself very powerful and rushed to face Kaido, only to be crushed much like the SHs were defeated in Sabaody but with only Moria surviving.
Croc is another pirate that got defeated around the same time. I feel he has mastered his Devil Fruit to the point of awakening and was even able to fight low-level haki users by relying on how lethal his power was, but once he went for an emperor he was soundly defeated.
Considering the Shichibukai were created as a counter to the Emperors, maybe Croc and Moria were among the first Warlords, which is why they seem far weaker than the others. The government took some failed "supernovas" in hopes of them getting stronger over time.
CP9 is an interesting case. It's my theory that Rokushiki is a martial art meant to awake the haki potential of users. Some techniques like tekkai, shigan, kami-e and geppou sound too related to haki, plus Rokushiki is used by vice-admirals, who are said to know haki, so I believe mastery Rokushiki leads to mastery of haki as its next step. We should remember that there's one level above CP9, which is CP0, so maybe once you get enough power you are graduated into CP0, which is why the CP9 members could have some limited knowledge of haki but weren't proficient with it yet pre-TS.
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Thats why I said I am surprised that it was mentioned by Oda that Crocodile was defeated by WB himself. A person with some haki can't even get near the emperor as we have seen let alone do anything in the NW without it. Same goes to Moria. Do you really think he would have put up a good fight with Kaido of all people if he didn't have haki? So yes there is no clear indication they had it at the time when Luffy defeated them, but I doubt they would have gained the name and fame they had with just DF powers. Caribou was a prime example of how DF alone can't get anything done in NW.
Ace didn't seem to have Haki before joining Whitebeard, yet he challenged him just fine in the New World.
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The practice of trying to retrofit Haki onto pre-skip one piece has always felt like a exhausting rabbit hole to me. So many scenes that were taken at face value back in the day now need get coated in an extra layer of stipulations in order to “make sense” in the haki system.
Like, when Whitebeard got stabbed by a throng of Marine mooks during the war nobody really thought anything of it; Whitebeard is a flesh and blood humans who doesn’t have tekkai, and the swords are pointy. Besides, the impressive thing is how he keeps going and mows down everyone regardless of his wounds.
But to make sense in a post-haki world, we need to write in that “Whitebeard probably only specializes in offensive CoA and is really bad at defensive CoA despite being an emperor” or “the accumulated force of the marines CoA must have trumped Whitebeards, the marines were maybe offensive CoA haki specialists” or “Maybe Whitebeard didn’t have enough Haki points for both Offensive and Defensive CoA, his haki pool is most likely tied to his deteriorating health, surely, probably”, all things that are not part of the original text in any way (side node, was there any sort of establishment of "Haki as literal body armor" during the war?).And there so many instances where you’d have to do this; when Luffy punches Crocodile for the first time and Crocodile goes “how did he…?”, the straightforward and unquestioned-at-the-time interpretation is “Crocodile is normally intangible and Luffy having found a way to touch him is extremely surprising and clever of Luffy” but now you’d have to come up with excuses of why Crocodile didn’t think the extremely obvious thought of “Haki!?! No, it can’t be - ”
And you can retroactively explain these things, but doing so slightly or greatly warps the nature of the original scenes. First time ‘round in the CP9 arc Lucci is pitched as the strongest ever prodigy of the exceptionally deadly government killer squad with his specific strength coming from his extreme mastery of their specific unique martial arts skills, including the ability to harden your body, but now its “tekkai is obviously meant as a decent placeholder for people until they learn CoA, and Lucci was pretty tough for a CP9 member, but compared to a New World CP0 member then…“.
And like, everything is so much simpler through the lens of “Haki as it is now was a later addition”, especially considering Oda has gone on record with at this point many examples of major developments being improvised. It lets pre-skip one piece retain its original framing of scenes, without caveats upon caveats needing to be placed upon them.
People are free to try making the whole of pre-skip one piece fit neatly into the haki system, it just seems based on the notion that One Piece is a meticulously planned clockwork contraption of foreshadowing (Yes some things are absolutely planned in advance but it is definetely not a rule). Plus, in the unambiguous examples of pre-skip haki, Oda is being way more straightforward and fair about the whole thing, specifically highlighting "wow Luffy made people faint, how did he do that, what is this" and such, drawing the readers attention to the concept specifically.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Go one fight further and see how Gear 4 was utilized.
I never got around to rereading the Katakuri fight (which I am assuming you are referring to?), but as far as I remember, Snakeman did land a hit or two on katakuri due to his speed…but then Katakuri started dodging again? As a "solution" to the "problem" of Katakuris ability theres also the issue of the snaking arms being used in much the same way on Doflamingo, plus the fact that Katakuris futurevision being a direct manifestation of the haki system rather than his mochi- i.e. it could have been applied to any sufficiently strong character, regardless of DF ability. Similarly, katakuris moves are a lot of fun to see, but a lot of them could be fitted onto other characters with "substance emission" DFs, with haki flattening them into similar uses.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
@Sibersk:
I don't think there's ever been that level of exploiting possible Devil Fruit workarounds in the series, pre or post haki. People weren't trying to superheat Crocodile to turn him into glass, or set up ground rods for Enel. The water weakness or rubber vulnerability were just for establishing why Luffy could eventually punch the bad guy really hard. Most of the fights in the series have come down to speed and durability, at least Gear 4th utilizes the fact that Luffy is made of rubber.
Yep gear 4 also add the mobility aspect that comes down to speed , power and durability we normal see to what deicide fights .
But exploiting possible Devil Fruit workarounds as you said was never a huge aspect in the series.I strongly disagree with the notion that DF- or enemy skill in general- specific workarounds were never a recurring thing; They've been there from day one.
Buggy can split up his body and fly around - except for his feet which then get targeted, and all his body parts get tied up so he can't reassemble them. Kuro charges at you with superspeed and sharp knives, so Luffy blocks with a rock, grabs him the instant after being struck, and grapples Kuro to neutralize the superspeed. Sanji blows air into Kuroobis gills. Dealing with Arlongs nose becomes both a facet of the fight and a big symbolic moment. Dealing with Mr 3s wax. Using the Mr 4 pairs tactics against them. Sanji dealing with Mr 2 transforming into nami, all the way up to finding workarounds to not being able to touch Magellan.
Even in the two logia cases its not simply "Luffy can punch them now", the entire second round of Luffy vs Crocodile is about Luffy having to protect his water barrel, internalizing the water into him self due to his rubber ability in order to protect it and surprising Croc by pumping it out, and Croc switching to large-scale AOE dehydration moves as a result. VS Enel, after it is established that Luffy can hit him Enel immediately swtiches to using electricity to mold and superheat an effective weapon and conducts himself through gold in order to surprise Luffy, and Luffy switches to a unique rubber-based tactics to circumvent Enels mantra.
Its wasn't an "iron clad rule" of pre-skip One Piece or anything, but it was absolutely a facet, and made for unique and enjoyable twists to fights.
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Ace didn't seem to have Haki before joining Whitebeard, yet he challenged him just fine in the New World.
Ace novel reveals he awakened his haki fighting a marine in Sabaody. However, he's never shown being particularly proficient with it.
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It was a little weird when it turned out that most big league marines knew the six forms too. Like i get the urge to repurpose it as the WGs main form of martial art, but it was nice when it was just a super specific skillset for assasins trained from birth. When everyone can have it and a lot of people do then Lucci and his gang sort of lose their flair
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@Daz:
The practice of trying to retrofit Haki onto pre-skip one piece has always felt like a exhausting rabbit hole to me. So many scenes that were taken at face value back in the day now need get coated in an extra layer of stipulations in order to “make sense” in the haki system.
Like, when Whitebeard got stabbed by a throng of Marine mooks during the war nobody really thought anything of it; Whitebeard is a flesh and blood humans who doesn’t have tekkai, and the swords are pointy. Besides, the impressive thing is how he keeps going and mows down everyone regardless of his wounds.
But to make sense in a post-haki world, we need to write in that “Whitebeard probably only specializes in offensive CoA and is really bad at defensive CoA despite being an emperor” or “the accumulated force of the marines CoA must have trumped Whitebeards, the marines were maybe offensive CoA haki specialists” or “Maybe Whitebeard didn’t have enough Haki points for both Offensive and Defensive CoA, his haki pool is most likely tied to his deteriorating health, surely, probably”, all things that are not part of the original text in any way (side node, was there any sort of establishment of "Haki as literal body armor" during the war?).All those musings are unnecessary. For the untrained eye, haki just makes the user stronger, faster and more resilient. We didn't know what we were seeing in Marineford, but you can bet haki was being used all the time by vice-admirals, admirals, commanders and so on.
We even saw the most glaring uses of haki when the admirals stopped Whitebeard's shockwave, when Jinbe was able to hold a lava fist with his bare hands,when Whitebeard was able to fend off Ace's attacks while sleeping, or when Akainu was able to evade haki attacks from Marco and Vista. Even when Squard took Whitebeard by surprise, Marco warned the readers that it was because of WB's failing health, as he normally would be able to avoid it entirely (CoO, then).
The post-Timeskip details only matter because we, the readers, are finally understanding haki just like the protagonists do. So, what appeared to be pure brute strength or unfathomable vigor before are now understood as haki enhancements.
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@Daz:
I never got around to rereading the Katakuri fight (which I am assuming you are referring to?), but as far as I remember, Snakeman did land a hit or two on katakuri due to his speed…but then Katakuri started dodging again? As a "solution" to the "problem" of Katakuris ability theres also the issue of the snaking arms being used in much the same way on Doflamingo, plus the fact that Katakuris futurevision being a direct manifestation of the haki system rather than his mochi- i.e. it could have been applied to any sufficiently strong character, regardless of DF ability. Similarly, katakuris moves are a lot of fun to see, but a lot of them could be fitted onto other characters with "substance emission" DFs, with haki flattening them into similar uses.
I'm actually talking about the Cracker fight, where Luffy ate Cracker's biscuit soldiers after Nami softened them, became huge, and then used Gear 4: Tankman to absorb Cracker into his hard, but soft belly and spit him into his own Biscuit Soldiers. It's a creative and hilarious solution to Cracker that is reminiscent of Luffy's Fusen technique or Mizu Luffy. Gear 4 Boundman was specifically not enough to beat Cracker because of the durability and number of his biscuit soldiers, but Luffy was able to use his ability to eat copious amounts of food and the nature of his rubber when hardened to beat him.
As for Katakuri, the point of his techniques is that he's sticky and moldable. He can change his body, or create whatever he sees fit so that he doesn't fall and stick to the ground. He can also use that nature of Mochi and his haki to change the shape of his body like Logia's are able to do by instinct. It's really cool that Oda waited until using a mochi paramecia fruit to do this. To some extent, Luffy is fighting him in order to level up in Observation Haki, but what the fight is about is the difference in philosophies between Luffy and Katakuri. All of Kata's techniques are to prove that he is above Luffy and that his philosophy (and the facade of) not having ever fallen in battle on his back is superior while Luffy has to fall and bounce back over and over to even get on the same level as Katakuri. That works for me really well thematically.
The first part of the fight sees him using his Mochi to copy Luffy's techniques and do them better, including mimicking Gum Gum Storm by creating multiple arms to match Luffy's 2. He doesn't really delve into his own techniques until Luffy reveals the truth of him while his guard is down and the most impressive of these attacks (peerless donuts) reflect his favorite food. I think the others also do a job of imagining ways to use mochi creatively, whether it's the square fists that represent packed and compressed mochi, or the way he compresses the Mochi of his arm and shoots it off, creating grilled/a flaming and exploding mochi arm. I don't think we've seen any other Devil Fruit user with as many creative and non-bs uses for their power.
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Super late comment, I'm sure everything's been discussed.
This is one of my personal favorite chapters of the entire series.
Luffy's will should be the strongest, and now he can manifest it the most directly he's ever been able to.
What'll be interesting is how strong is Kaido's will in comparison? It can't be much weaker than Luffy's, but perhaps it's the whole "I'm starting a world war because I'm bored" thing won't have as much of a solid foundation as Luffy wanting to achieve a childhood dream and make Shanks proud.Oda's got me. I initially was one of those who thought Luffy would be defeated again, but now I don't believe so.
The art this chapter was also breathtaking. Kaido just has such a presence when he's on panel, it's so satisfying to see something like that take actual damage.I now think volume 100 lives up to its significance in the series, just based on these last few chapters.
The Straw Hat moments actually round it out very well, won't be surprised if we move onto Jinbe soon.Oh and I have 0 issue with Luffy learning this CoC utilization, this is how he learned Soru, and he already has access to Conqueror's and knew the concepts of Ryuuou. Very natural powerup.
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@Daz:
The practice of trying to retrofit Haki onto pre-skip one piece has always felt like a exhausting rabbit hole to me. So many scenes that were taken at face value back in the day now need get coated in an extra layer of stipulations in order to “make sense” in the haki system.
Like, when Whitebeard got stabbed by a throng of Marine mooks during the war nobody really thought anything of it; Whitebeard is a flesh and blood humans who doesn’t have tekkai, and the swords are pointy. Besides, the impressive thing is how he keeps going and mows down everyone regardless of his wounds.
But to make sense in a post-haki world, we need to write in that “Whitebeard probably only specializes in offensive CoA and is really bad at defensive CoA despite being an emperor” or “the accumulated force of the marines CoA must have trumped Whitebeards, the marines were maybe offensive CoA haki specialists” or “Maybe Whitebeard didn’t have enough Haki points for both Offensive and Defensive CoA, his haki pool is most likely tied to his deteriorating health, surely, probably”, all things that are not part of the original text in any way (side node, was there any sort of establishment of "Haki as literal body armor" during the war?).And there so many instances where you’d have to do this; when Luffy punches Crocodile for the first time and Crocodile goes “how did he…?”, the straightforward and unquestioned-at-the-time interpretation is “Crocodile is normally intangible and Luffy having found a way to touch him is extremely surprising and clever of Luffy” but now you’d have to come up with excuses of why Crocodile didn’t think the extremely obvious thought of “Haki!?! No, it can’t be - ”
And you can retroactively explain these things, but doing so slightly or greatly warps the nature of the original scenes. First time ‘round in the CP9 arc Lucci is pitched as the strongest ever prodigy of the exceptionally deadly government killer squad with his specific strength coming from his extreme mastery of their specific unique martial arts skills, including the ability to harden your body, but now its “tekkai is obviously meant as a decent placeholder for people until they learn CoA, and Lucci was pretty tough for a CP9 member, but compared to a New World CP0 member then…“.
And like, everything is so much simpler through the lens of “Haki as it is now was a later addition”, especially considering Oda has gone on record with at this point many examples of major developments being improvised. It lets pre-skip one piece retain its original framing of scenes, without caveats upon caveats needing to be placed upon them.
People are free to try making the whole of pre-skip one piece fit neatly into the haki system, it just seems based on the notion that One Piece is a meticulously planned clockwork contraption of foreshadowing (Yes some things are absolutely planned in advance but it is definetely not a rule). Plus, in the unambiguous examples of pre-skip haki, Oda is being way more straightforward and fair about the whole thing, specifically highlighting "wow Luffy made people faint, how did he do that, what is this" and such, drawing the readers attention to the concept specifically.And yet, you have stuff like the battle against Mr. 1 and Sanji pointing out that Garp could punch Luffy somehow, where some sort of unexplained power explicitly happened.
Otherwise, Zoro cut steel just because. If that fight was post-timeskip, everybody would be complaining of asspull.
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If Oda had haki established exactly as it is now in his mind from the start then i'd say he was a bit sloppy in how he put it in. Alternatively i'd like to believe that he had a general idea of such a power, but the execution and it's nuances changed a number of times betwenn 1997 and 2021
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Yeah, there are two options for me here
1. Oda is a terrible author, who couldn't properly depict a core feature of his world in 1000+ chapters.
2. Oda is a great author, who frequently manages to tie up those loose ends (accumulated over 2 freaking decades of weekly serialisation).
I think I will go with the latter.
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The way I see it, the ppl who didn't have haki then, didn't have haki; Lucci, the rest of CP9, Moria, Crocodile, etc.
The ppl who had unexplained non-DF abilities or hinted at something to be explained later, had haki; all the ppl in the sky having mantra some way stronger than others, Zoro's 9 sword style attack, Shanks' menacing stare, Garp's punches, etc.
No need to retroactively fit haki for any strong character. There's no definitive signature for CoO and no need to make everybody have blackened body parts to indicate CoA.
The way story has been as Luffy progresses from each sea; east blue to Paradise to the New World the message has always been there are way stronger ppl ahead. Mihawk beating Zoro with a small knife after cutting up a huge ship displayed that 4 arcs in to the story. The entire progress and perception would have most seasoned pirates assume a rookie pirate cant use haki, especially if they don't start off using it in every fight which is only natural in the New World.
No reason to try and give Lucci haki. He didn't learn it then. Simple.
Stuff like WB you can simply say he's clearly old and sick. He was introduced as clearly out of his prime with the tubes up his nose anyway. So whether it's a small stab or an Akainu punch of BB's crew unloading the entire clip in to him doesnt matter he was too weakened to use CoO.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Thats why I said I am surprised that it was mentioned by Oda that Crocodile was defeated by WB himself. A person with some haki can't even get near the emperor as we have seen let alone do anything in the NW without it. Same goes to Moria. Do you really think he would have put up a good fight with Kaido of all people if he didn't have haki? So yes there is no clear indication they had it at the time when Luffy defeated them, but I doubt they would have gained the name and fame they had with just DF powers. Caribou was a prime example of how DF alone can't get anything done in NW.
Lucci is weird for me. I mean the whole CP9 are. The elite assassins of WG does not know the most important power system in the world or they dont use it (as per the reader) when a pirate group declares war against the WG? Why would they do that when Lucci and others know the SH are no pushovers?
The WG and Marines still think Chopper is their pet.
At the time of EL, the only ppl they thought might be some trouble were Luffy and Zoro. Then with only half of CP9 around, like two or three CP9 agents beat their asses and sent them flying with ease. One train ride later after tiring themselves out fighting thousands of fodder they proceed to beat every single member of CP9.
So cant really say they knew the SHs weren't pushover when they literally got pushed over, beaten, and after a bit of a chase and fighting more fodder got left behind in the sea never actually getting close to Robin or CP9.
It would be a totally different thing if the SHs fought a bunch of Vice admirals and Luffy didn't take any direct damage.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
If Oda had haki established exactly as it is now in his mind from the start then i'd say he was a bit sloppy in how he put it in. Alternatively i'd like to believe that he had a general idea of such a power, but the execution and it's nuances changed a number of times betwenn 1997 and 2021
It definitely evolved. He had CoC established day 1 and basically it took until Garp in W7 to show signs of CoA.
I feel Oda needed mantra in Skypeia just so there wouldn't be a boring rubber beats lightning fight akin to rock, papers scissors.
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If Oda had haki established exactly as it is now in his mind from the start then i'd say he was a bit sloppy in how he put it in. Alternatively i'd like to believe that he had a general idea of such a power, but the execution and it's nuances changed a number of times betwenn 1997 and 2021
That’s the thing, it feels like the general idea (including the three types) was established fairly early, while details, especilly visuals) were developed later. But haki basics are pretty consistent in early One Piece, and later reveals help understand some prior abilities.
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And yet, you have stuff like the battle against Mr. 1 and Sanji pointing out that Garp could punch Luffy somehow, where some sort of unexplained power explicitly happened.
Otherwise, Zoro cut steel just because. If that fight was post-timeskip, everybody would be complaining of asspull.
With Garp this is as you say explicitly highlighted, and also happens alongside the Whitebeard / Shanks scene which directly spotlights haki. I'm not saying there is NO haki pre-skip, Oda did gradually introduce the concept, with stuff like Luffy suddenly being able to make animals faint framed as noteworthy. From Sabaody onwards the haki callouts are extremely overt.
But that does not mean haki was always a thing, or was a thing in its final form. With Zoro vs Mr 1, as a certified Old Asshole I can recall no pre-haki conversation on Zoro cutting steel being some avenue into a generalized DF-negation system. "Zoro needs to be the worlds strongest swordsman and thus needs to be able to cut really durable things" is a pretty easy follow-through in a fantasy series where we saw The Worlds Strongest Swordsman bisect entire giant galleons with no effort in volume 6. Being able to retrofit it into the Haki system doesn't mean it was ever considered some sort of abberation that needed Willpower Magic in order to be "properly" explained (same with Shanks scaring off the Lord of the coast with an intense glare and a stern voice. There was simply no reason to consider there was any deeper Magic Power in play)
But if we need to re-assess it as a certified Haki clue, why not bring it up again in the next major arc where Zoro is faced with an uncuttable thudner man? From the perspective of haki not being a thing at this point it makes sense, but if Zoro cutting Mr 1 is supposedly a way of establishing CoA, why not? And why have the subject introduced by Luffys subordinate in an arc where Luffys main struggle is about overcoming an intangible opponent with creative non-haki based solutions?
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@Daz:
But that does not mean haki was always a thing, or was a thing in its final form. With Zoro vs Mr 1, as a certified Old Asshole I can recall no pre-haki conversation on Zoro cutting steel being some avenue into a generalized DF-negation system. "Zoro needs to be the worlds strongest swordsman and thus needs to be able to cut really durable things" is a pretty easy follow-through in a fantasy series where we saw The Worlds Strongest Swordsman bisect entire giant galleons with no effort in volume 6. Being able to retrofit it into the Haki system doesn't mean it was ever considered some sort of abberation that needed Willpower Magic in order to be "properly" explained (same with Shanks scaring off the Lord of the coast with an intense glare and a stern voice. There was simply no reason to consider there was any deeper Magic Power in play)
Except for the part where Zoro literally goes "I must be able to use that power again".
From what Zoro says, it's clearly something he just tapped out and had no clue to do it again. A "magic, mysterious power" if you will.
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Except for the part where Zoro literally goes "I must be able to use that power again".
[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/aQaDeOs.png[/qimg]
From what Zoro says, it's clearly something he just tapped out and had no clue to do it again. A "magic, mysterious power" if you will.
Also, Krieg claiming Mihawk must have a DF because no normal being could do what Mihawk did to his ship.
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The breath of all things feels like it could be one of those times when Oda may have changed his mind on how the specifics of haki worked. What zoros teacher passed on to him about hearing the breath of all things and getting in tune with objects, i dunno spirits or souls or something? To enable him to cut anything. Seems a bit more spiritual than manifest your will physically and just force shit to become human flesh again
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Yeah, there are two options for me here
1. Oda is a terrible author, who couldn't properly depict a core feature of his world in 1000+ chapters.
2. Oda is a great author, who frequently manages to tie up those loose ends (accumulated over 2 freaking decades of weekly serialisation).
I think I will go with the latter.
I mean assassin trained from birth and big shots veterasn like Moriah werent using haki and now haki turn stuff black constantly when it didnt before. You can retrofit it to preskip for in-universe consticency but if we talking purely author intent/execution it's lacking either way. At some point it's fine to accept Oda is not only failable but also can change or expand on a new concept.
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The breath of all things feels like it could be one of those times when Oda may have changed his mind on how the specifics of haki worked. What zoros teacher passed on to him about hearing the breath of all things and getting in tune with objects, i dunno spirits or souls or something? To enable him to cut anything. Seems a bit more spiritual than manifest your will physically and just force shit to become human flesh again
In the end, the concept is still spiritual mumbo jumbo.
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The choice to cut a leaf or not sounds more spiritual bs then make your sword strickly stronger by applying that power up.
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@Zik:
The way I see it, the ppl who didn't have haki then, didn't have haki; Lucci, the rest of CP9, Moria, Crocodile, etc.
But at least Lucci and Kaku are confirmed to be haki users in Databook. Stussy too.
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Ace didn't seem to have Haki before joining Whitebeard, yet he challenged him just fine in the New World.
In the one piece novel, Ace activated CoA when fighting the VA before going to NW. He also developed CoC when he was in Goa kingdom.
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I feel both Croc and Moria were bellow their peak when they fought Luffy. Both were in Paradise for decades, fighting lower threats and newbie pirates, so they grew complacent and overconfident (and lazy, in the case of Moria). However, I don't think they'd forget haki entirely, only their reflexes and strength would get dulled.
I think of Moria and Croc as pirates that rushed throught power in Paradise and went too early to the New World. Both were present in Roger's execution, and Moria was defeated by Kaido one year later, an event in which his whole crew was massacrated and left him with serious PTSD. The way he talks to the Straw Hats in the end of Thriller Bark makes me feel he was much like Luffy pre-TS, thought himself very powerful and rushed to face Kaido, only to be crushed much like the SHs were defeated in Sabaody but with only Moria surviving.
Croc is another pirate that got defeated around the same time. I feel he has mastered his Devil Fruit to the point of awakening and was even able to fight low-level haki users by relying on how lethal his power was, but once he went for an emperor he was soundly defeated.
Considering the Shichibukai were created as a counter to the Emperors, maybe Croc and Moria were among the first Warlords, which is why they seem far weaker than the others. The government took some failed "supernovas" in hopes of them getting stronger over time.
CP9 is an interesting case. It's my theory that Rokushiki is a martial art meant to awake the haki potential of users. Some techniques like tekkai, shigan, kami-e and geppou sound too related to haki, plus Rokushiki is used by vice-admirals, who are said to know haki, so I believe mastery Rokushiki leads to mastery of haki as its next step. We should remember that there's one level above CP9, which is CP0, so maybe once you get enough power you are graduated into CP0, which is why the CP9 members could have some limited knowledge of haki but weren't proficient with it yet pre-TS.
Its possible. But I doubt anyone without haki would even be able to meet the emperor.
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All those musings are unnecessary. For the untrained eye, haki just makes the user stronger, faster and more resilient. We didn't know what we were seeing in Marineford, but you can bet haki was being used all the time by vice-admirals, admirals, commanders and so on.
We even saw the most glaring uses of haki when the admirals stopped Whitebeard's shockwave, when Jinbe was able to hold a lava fist with his bare hands,when Whitebeard was able to fend off Ace's attacks while sleeping, or when Akainu was able to evade haki attacks from Marco and Vista. Even when Squard took Whitebeard by surprise, Marco warned the readers that it was because of WB's failing health, as he normally would be able to avoid it entirely (CoO, then).
The post-Timeskip details only matter because we, the readers, are finally understanding haki just like the protagonists do. So, what appeared to be pure brute strength or unfathomable vigor before are now understood as haki enhancements.
All the examples you point here are after haki was introduced after EL/W7 and explored in Boa sisters arc. There is no retrofitting this to Alabasta or Thriller bark etc.
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That’s the thing, it feels like the general idea (including the three types) was established fairly early, while details, especilly visuals) were developed later. But haki basics are pretty consistent in early One Piece, and later reveals help understand some prior abilities.
Yes this is what I am also saying. Did Oda plan on haki as a general concept? Absolutely yes. Did Oda plan every nitty gritty detail on why Lucci/Moria and Crocodile did not use haki? Not really. And that's ok. That does not mean he is not a great author. It just means in a 20 yr series, things change and we have to accept that.
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Except for the part where Zoro literally goes "I must be able to use that power again".
https://i.imgur.com/aQaDeOs.png
From what Zoro says, it's clearly something he just tapped out and had no clue to do it again. A "magic, mysterious power" if you will.
He was still able to cut Ohm's steel clouds, which are also as durable as steel. So he remembered only for that fight but not when Enel was roasting everyone?
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He was still able to cut Ohm's steel clouds, which are also as durable as steel. So he remembered only for that fight but not when Enel was roasting everyone?
Im pretty sure Ohm of the "Ordeal of Iron" and Eisen Whip (i.e. "Iron Whip") used iron, which Zoro had no problem cutting beforehand.
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He was still able to cut Ohm's steel clouds, which are also as durable as steel. So he remembered only for that fight but not when Enel was roasting everyone?
Haki is not just a powerup, you need to know what you are doing, that's why Luffy, Zoro and Sanji took two years to learn the basics. If you don't know what you are doing, you can't coat your weapon to hit a logia.
(Also, Ohm's clouds were iron-hard, not steel-hard, like King Cannon said above)
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I think Oda clearly had bits of ideas about would eventually end up being Haki. Clearly the Zoro stuff with Mr 1 is Armament and Observation Haki. But I doubt at the time Oda knew that those things and were called Haki. But I think he had the idea that overcoming death through willpower can make you stronger since then.
Because that's exactly what Zoro was doing in that fight. So I think had pieces of what would beceom Haki and it's various branches. And of course those branches having advanced forms isn't that far of leap. And he can even retroactively say that people in Marineford were doing these things but the audience didn't know it because Luffy didn't.
Haki is not just a powerup, you need to know what you are doing, that's why Luffy, Zoro and Sanji took two years to learn the basics. If you don't know what you are doing, you can't coat your weapon to hit a logia.
(Also, Ohm's clouds were iron-hard, not steel-hard, like King Cannon said above)
That's not necessarily true. Ussop used Observation without any training. It just bloomed for him in a important moment. And in his mind, he may have been in a life or death situation. Because of those people who were rushing him, he didn't know they weren't coming for the bounty Doffy put on his head, also because he had one shot to save Luffy.
But just because this a power up, and can do this blooming thing, doesn't mean it's bad or anything. At the end of the day One Piece is a Shonen series. And we want to see our main characters do cool shit. And if blooming is the justification for the cool shit happening? Then I'm good with it.
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But at least Lucci and Kaku are confirmed to be haki users in Databook. Stussy too.
You mean now. That's all well and good since haki is something you can learn and develop.
The same way Usopp has it now.
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Oda is a smart guy and writer. He came up late in the game with haki as we know it now, but when he finally codified it he made sure it could overlap with stuff he put in the story before which at the time where just there and simply unrelated.
Like when he made sure that kid yamato's kimono in his one-panel recollection of Oden's execution matched one that was barely visible in that flashback, just so that one could make a case that he didn't actually came up with him (with a definitiv version of the charachter at least)at the last possible minute.Stuff like Zoro cutting steel or hearing the breath of things was written in because ha had a "samurai" and a "zen" theme going for him, now we learn that haki lets you kinda do just that so we made the association.
Garp punched and hurt Luffy, and everybody's surprised UNTIL e few minutes later he reveals he's his granpa, and that it hurt because it was "a fist of love". Everybody seems satisfied with that explanation and don't question it further, neither they question when it is Nami that, just a chapter later, beats up Luffy's face for something stupid he did or said. Those were both gags. Now we know that it was actually Haki in Garp's case… but Nami's still a gag, she doesn't have haki. Or does she? Maybe in Elbaf she awakens CoA and it's revealed that her slapping Luffy silly back in W7 was yet again clever foreshadowing and Oda actually finished writing One Piece in the summer of '97.
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Oda is a smart guy and writer. He came up late in the game with haki as we know it now, but when he finally codified it he made sure it could overlap with stuff he put in the story before which at the time where just there and simply unrelated.
Like when he made sure that kid yamato's kimono in his one-panel recollection of Oden's execution matched one that was barely visible in that flashback, just so that one could make a case that he didn't actually came up with him (with a definitiv version of the charachter at least)at the last possible minute.Stuff like Zoro cutting steel or hearing the breath of things was written in because ha had a "samurai" and a "zen" theme going for him, now we learn that haki lets you kinda do just that so we made the association.
Garp punched and hurt Luffy, and everybody's surprised UNTIL e few minutes later he reveals he's his granpa, and that it hurt because it was "a fist of love". Everybody seems satisfied with that explanation and don't question it further, neither they question when it is Nami that, just a chapter later, beats up Luffy's face for something stupid he did or said. Those were both gags. Now we know that it was actually Haki in Garp's case… but Nami's still a gag, she doesn't have haki. Or does she? Maybe in Elbaf she awakens CoA and it's revealed that her slapping Luffy silly back in W7 was yet again clever foreshadowing and Oda actually finished writing One Piece in the summer of '97.
I think you're underestimating Oda there, if only because there are several other hints like Blackbeard outright mentioning Haki in Jaya (which the English translation didn't pick on). Also, it's strange to accept Garp's Fist of Love as a real thing when just a few chapters later Shanks was imploding WB's ship with Haoshoku, with Haki being explicitly mentioned.
It's clear he wanted some sort of magic power out there, but likely didn't have all the details figured out. But the power itself did exist.
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I think you're underestimating Oda there, if only because there are several other hints like Blackbeard outright mentioning Haki in Jaya (which the English translation didn't pick on). Also, it's strange to accept Garp's Fist of Love as a real thing when just a few chapters later Shanks was imploding WB's ship with Haoshoku, with Haki being explicitly mentioned.
It's clear he wanted some sort of magic power out there, but likely didn't have all the details figured out. But the power itself did exist.
When I started reading OP I was expecting some kind of “ki” power in the series, so I read since the beginning seeking clues about it. From Coby being surprised by Morgan’s cutting power, to Jango questioning how Luffy survived a chakram to the head and clearly saying being rubber wouldn’t explain it, or Krieg saying in no uncertain terms that Mihawk had some kind of power and that someone who went to the GL (Zeff) may know the explanation, there were quite a few early hints that there were non-DF abilities that relied on some sort of power to work.
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Yeah, there are two options for me here
1. Oda is a terrible author, who couldn't properly depict a core feature of his world in 1000+ chapters.
2. Oda is a great author, who frequently manages to tie up those loose ends (accumulated over 2 freaking decades of weekly serialisation).
I think I will go with the latter.
Why can't it be both? Nobody is perfect.
It's obviously #2 with some toned down #1.
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The man probably makes up a fair bit as he goes along. It's bound to happen when your story goes from 5 years to 25 years
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Except for the part where Zoro literally goes "I must be able to use that power again".
https://i.imgur.com/aQaDeOs.png
From what Zoro says, it's clearly something he just tapped out and had no clue to do it again. A "magic, mysterious power" if you will.
…but the straightforward explanation is that Zoro wants to be able to use the ability of being able to cut steel again? As he then repeats a few more times pre-skip? Theres’ not really any reason that one should think otherwise, beyond hindsight. Because even if you can slot cutting Mr 1 in under “circumventing DF bodies is a trait of haki!”, that’s not what the scene is framed as. Zoro being able to cut Mr 1 does not relate to insights gained against DF’s, it’s about learning to cut steel, which Mr 1 happens to be made of. It operates on being attuned to the specific substance, in contrast to haki, where simply coating your fist in it is an all-purpose solution to DFs. Otherwise you’re moving into territory of “Zoro could cut through Mr 1 through haki based DF negation, but wouldn’t be able to cut through a regular hunk of non-DF steel”
In contrast, If Zoros comment is supposed to be taken as a “hint” of him suddenly now being wise to the wider DF negating properties of haki, why does it come up not at all when he’s faced with an uncuttable thunder man in the next arc? Not even a tiny bit?I think you're underestimating Oda there, if only because there are several other hints like Blackbeard outright mentioning Haki in Jaya (which the English translation didn't pick on).
But again, the reason this ”hint” was “missed” is that there was no reason to doubt the original interpretation: Blackbeard thought it was strange that someone of Luffys ambition -demonstrated by Luffy being a literally very ambitious character who in this case is highlighted a dreamer who believes in sky island- had a bounty of “only” 30 million. Its an interpretation that makes perfect sense in and of itself. There was no reason to expect that what BB REALLY meant was “Luffys haki-power level, which is a thing now, and which I can somehow sense, and can sense despite Luffy doing nothing in this arc that relates to the haki concept as it will be known later on (a “skill“ which I don’t think has reappeared, ever?), is too low for a 30 million bounty”
You’re zooming in on just the word “haki” being uttered and missing that the entire context of the scene, least of all the arc, doesn’t relate to the concept as it is now known. Which is pretty much the same case as when Zoro cut Mr 1. Or when people take Zoro dodging the falling rocks as a sign of CoO, which only works in isolation, if you don’t factor in that Zoro never demonstrated any increased CoO assisted dodging capacity after this moment (I mean, Zoro being ground to a bloody pulp was a staple throughout pre-skip), or how it didn’t come up whatsoever in the mantra-central that was Skypea.You’re focusing on a handful of moments that in retrospect can fit the haki mold as “hints” that haki as it is now was always a thing, but not really dealing with whether or not the entire rest of the surrounding pre-skip framework supports this. If there is nothing in the story that framed these moments as “hints” at the time, and in fact all had straightforward alternate interpretations that everyone were happy with, why would you assume they were hints?
To put the haki issue another way, imagine If it was now, with the haki system firmly established, that Oda introduced the idea of a government top-secret super-strong squad of masters of a secret martial arts code, trained by the WG since childhood, with the squad in its strongest ever iteration…
…would you ever expect them to be written as CP9 was, originally? With NO haki, despite being trained from birth and framed as amazing assets in an organization where everyone of noteworthy rank has haki? With two of their 6 fundamental principles, the cornerstone of their strength, being tekkai and kami-e, which are both completely redundant when CoA and CoO exist? And with none of this remarked upon in any way? -
@Daz:
…but the straightforward explanation is that Zoro wants to be able to use the ability of being able to cut steel again? As he then repeats a few more times pre-skip? Theres’ not really any reason that one should think otherwise, beyond hindsight. Because even if you can slot cutting Mr 1 in under “circumventing DF bodies is a trait of haki!”, that’s not what the scene is framed as. Zoro being able to cut Mr 1 does not relate to insights gained against DF’s, it’s about learning to cut steel, which Mr 1 happens to be made of. It operates on being attuned to the specific substance, in contrast to haki, where simply coating your fist in it is an all-purpose solution to DFs. Otherwise you’re moving into territory of “Zoro could cut through Mr 1 through haki based DF negation, but wouldn’t be able to cut through a regular hunk of non-DF steel”
In contrast, If Zoros comment is supposed to be taken as a “hint” of him suddenly now being wise to the wider DF negating properties of haki, why does it come up not at all when he’s faced with an uncuttable thunder man in the next arc? Not even a tiny bit?But it's unarguable that Zoro used a strange magic power against Mr. 1, going by the fact he claimed his sword and the rocks were breathing, which is lunatic talk and would fall under the scope of "magic". Whether Oda intended that to be Haki or not, the power existed and that's a fact. And he likely was going to elaborate on it further down the line, since that post-fight scene made it clear Zoro didn't know how to manifest that technique again (and we don't see Zoro cutting steel in subsequent arcs).
@Daz:
But again, the reason this ”hint” was “missed” is that there was no reason to doubt the original interpretation: Blackbeard thought it was strange that someone of Luffys ambition -demonstrated by Luffy being a literally very ambitious character who in this case is highlighted a dreamer who believes in sky island- had a bounty of “only” 30 million. Its an interpretation that makes perfect sense in and of itself. There was no reason to expect that what BB REALLY meant was “Luffys haki-power level, which is a thing now, and which I can somehow sense, and can sense despite Luffy doing nothing in this arc that relates to the haki concept as it will be known later on (a “skill“ which I don’t think has reappeared, ever?), is too low for a 30 million bounty”
You’re zooming in on just the word “haki” being uttered and missing that the entire context of the scene, least of all the arc, doesn’t relate to the concept as it is now known. Which is pretty much the same case as when Zoro cut Mr 1. Or when people take Zoro dodging the falling rocks as a sign of CoO, which only works in isolation, if you don’t factor in that Zoro never demonstrated any increased CoO assisted dodging capacity after this moment (I mean, Zoro being ground to a bloody pulp was a staple throughout pre-skip), or how it didn’t come up whatsoever in the mantra-central that was Skypea.That interpretation doesn't make sense because Blackbeard didn''t know Luffy's ambition at first, which clashes with that scene where Blackbeard asks Luffy about his bounty and calls him a liar for no reason. He only learned about it later once Bellamy came into the bar.
@Daz:
You’re focusing on a handful of moments that in retrospect can fit the haki mold as “hints” that haki as it is now was always a thing, but not really dealing with whether or not the entire rest of the surrounding pre-skip framework supports this. If there is nothing in the story that framed these moments as “hints” at the time, and in fact all had straightforward alternate interpretations that everyone were happy with, why would you assume they were hints?
Because the "straightforward" interpretations I'm seeing from you and others are riddled with holes as well.
@Daz:
To put the haki issue another way, imagine If it was now, with the haki system firmly established, that Oda introduced the idea of a government top-secret super-strong squad of masters of a secret martial arts code, trained by the WG since childhood, with the squad in its strongest ever iteration…
…would you ever expect them to be written as CP9 was, originally? With NO haki, despite being trained from birth and framed as amazing assets in an organization where everyone of noteworthy rank has haki? With two of their 6 fundamental principles, the cornerstone of their strength, being tekkai and kami-e, which are both completely redundant when CoA and CoO exist? And with none of this remarked upon in any way?Enies Lobby is a strange arc to begin with because everybody is pulling new powers from their asses. Remember Douriki?
I'm assuming Oda simply wanted to focus on this new cool martial arts based on actual real life kung fu techniques. Tekkai in particular is based on "Iron Shirt", and Oda probably that was too interesting to not include with the other abilities.
Also, Kami-e is less CoO and more like being superflexible, akin to Diamante's ability but more realistic.
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Current haki being something of a patchwork isn't neccesarily a bad thing, and Oda managing to tie his different takes into something fairly cohesive is arguably more impressive than just laying it all out from the outset. Buuut i still think he took it too far, but c'est la vie, you can't like all decisions
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But it's unarguable that Zoro used a strange magic power against Mr. 1, going by the fact he claimed his sword and the rocks were breathing, which is lunatic talk and would fall under the scope of "magic". Whether Oda intended that to be Haki or not, the power existed and that's a fact. And he likely was going to elaborate on it further down the line, since that post-fight scene made it clear Zoro didn't know how to manifest that technique again (and we don't see Zoro cutting steel in subsequent arcs).
I'm not arguing that Zoro acquired a new power, I'm saying that nothing about the framing of the scene or subsequent pre-skip developments paints it as being an overt introduction to the CoA Haki system as it exists now. And If you agree that it isn't necessarily haki, then what are we even arguing here?
Besides, Zoro used the Lion Song move -which was used to cut Mr 1s steel- against Kaku, who got wise to the techniques nature and literally went "yeah I'm not using tekkai on that" and when he cut and damaged cyborg Kuma. And before you go "Ah, Kuma might technically NOT be steel!" my point is that this very specific move that cut down Mr 1 was busted out by Zoro later in the very specific context of "cutting through very durable things". There is no instance of Zoro trying to apply his “proto CoA magic power” to nullify DF abilities in general, or harden himself or his swords, or improve his dodging.
That interpretation doesn't make sense because Blackbeard didn''t know Luffy's ambition at first, which clashes with that scene where Blackbeard asks Luffy about his bounty and calls him a liar for no reason. He only learned about it later once Bellamy came into the bar.
BB calls Luffy a liar regarding the bounty because at that point Luffy is just some rando kid who argues with him about pies. Then, the entire Bellamy “dreams are stupid” standoff happens which BB clearly overhears, and first thing that happens when Luffy comes out the door is BB literally saying “Dreams are great! People are dumb! But you’ve got things figured out, kid! Happy trip to the fantastical sky island that no one else here believes in and actively mocks!”.
It’s… a straightforward sequence of events which that would lead BB to quickly revise his opinion on Luffy, and in turn later remark that 30 million seemed low for a guy he just praised like that.
And if you dismiss my interpretation, as nonsensical, can you honestly argue that “After initially dismissing Luffy BB then flips to BB reconsiders Luffys haki-power level, which is a thing now, and which BB can somehow sense, and can sense despite Luffy doing nothing in this arc that relates to the haki concept as it will be known later (a “skill“ which I don’t think has reappeared, ever?) or doing something haki related to sway BBs opinion, is too low for a 30 million bounty” is more sensical? Could anyone at the time be expected to infer this?
And even if "Haki" is here to be taken as an overt hint…an overt hint of what, exactly? A hint that people will be able to punch logias or harden their fists or make people faint? Because BB remarks that Luffy is ambitious, in an arc all about the pursuit of the impossible? If you can't connect the dots of the word "haki" being used at that time and haki as a power system as it exists now, how can you argue it is a "hint" that the system was in place from day 1? -
@Daz:
And if you dismiss my interpretation, as nonsensical, can you honestly argue that “After initially dismissing Luffy BB then flips to BB reconsiders Luffys haki-power level, which is a thing now, and which BB can somehow sense, and can sense despite Luffy doing nothing in this arc that relates to the haki concept as it will be known later (a “skill“ which I don’t think has reappeared, ever?) or doing something haki related to sway BBs opinion, is too low for a 30 million bounty” is more sensical?
Could you reasonably expect anyone at the time to get wise to people being able to punch logias or harden their fists or make people faint because BB remarks that Luffy is ambitious, in an arc all about the pursuit of the impossible? If not, how is it a “hint”?Easy. Blackbeard was able to sense Luffy's power and it didn't correspond to the level of 30 billion. He called Luffy a liar because he was lowballing his own worth.
This is confirmed later in chapter 234, when Blackbeard says the issue is that 30 Billion was too low for Luffy_,_ yet 100 Billion was too high. Why exactly does wanting to go to the sky preclude Luffy from being worth a hundred? The scene makes no fucking sense if its applied to literal ambition.
This is the most straightforward, consistent answer, and it relies on Blackbeard having the magic ability to measure Luffy's strength somehow.
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Also, Kami-e is less CoO and more like being superflexible, akin to Diamante's ability but more realistic.
Don't think he confused them, just pointed out how CoO as an ability is superior to Kami-e. The purpose is still the same.
Haki could have definitely been done better. In retrospect, it's obvious Oda didn't have the full picture at the time it actually started coming up. I imagine if it were the case, Rokushiki would have had less explanations and more vagueness regarding the nature of those abilities. We even had one of vice admirals commenting how Lucci will be enough to deal with Luffy and the rest. Said vice admiral, who could use Haki like all other vice admirals, who should have been aware Lucci couldn't, couldn't have known if Luffy or his buddies could use Haki or not. And that's just one of the examples.
Ffs, even Smoker referred to Hancock's ability as Kuja Haki, but then suddenly after the Marineford battle we have a doctor explaining to Coby what happened to him during the battle and how his Haki awakened. Apparently, it's business as usual?
Things like that happen and writers sometimes need to dig themselves out or cut corners. It isn't always pretty but if it can be done without too much damage to the narrative, I'm more than happy. Just the other day I first read GRRM had a perfect ending constructed, but the only problem was, he needed a character he killed off to pull it off without it looking cheap and cheesy. Imagine that predicament! Something like that, at least, is not very likely to happen to Oda.
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Easy. Blackbeard was able to sense Luffy's power and it didn't correspond to the level of 30 billion. He called Luffy a liar because he was lowballing his own worth.
This is confirmed later in chapter 234, when Blackbeard says the issue is that 30 Billion was too low for Luffy_,_ yet 100 Billion was too high. Why exactly does wanting to go to the sky preclude Luffy from being worth a hundred? The scene makes no fucking sense if its applied to literal ambition.
This is the most straightforward, consistent answer, and it relies on Blackbeard having the magic ability to measure Luffy's strength somehow.
I never thought about it that way, but that's a hella sensible interpretation, especially considering Mantra would be introduced not long after.
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Don't think he confused them, just pointed out how CoO as an ability is superior to Kami-e. The purpose is still the same.
Haki could have definitely been done better. In retrospect, it's obvious Oda didn't have the full picture at the time it actually started coming up. I imagine if it were the case, Rokushiki would have had less explanations and more vagueness regarding the nature of those abilities. We even had one of vice admirals commenting how Lucci will be enough to deal with Luffy and the rest. Said vice admiral, who could use Haki like all other vice admirals, who should have been aware Lucci couldn't, couldn't have known if Luffy or his buddies could use Haki or not. And that's just one of the examples.
Ffs, even Smoker referred to Hancock's ability as Kuja Haki, but then suddenly after the Marineford battle we have a doctor explaining to Coby what happened to him during the battle and how his Haki awakened. Apparently, it's business as usual?
Things like that happen and writers sometimes need to dig themselves out or cut corners. It isn't always pretty but if it can be done without too much damage to the narrative, I'm more than happy. Just the other day I first read GRRM had a perfect ending constructed, but the only problem was, he needed a character he killed off to pull it off without it looking cheap and cheesy. Imagine that predicament! Something like that, at least, is not very likely to happen to Oda.
Smoker was at first surprised that someone had hit him, cause he's made of smoke, meaning he probably wasn't used to meet haki users yet even if he had already found out about it.
And the Kujas are know for their use of haki, that's the first thing Luffy noticed about them, that even though they weren't as strong as him they could break boulders with their arrows. Margaret could do it and she wasn't strong enough to go on Hancock's ship and raid, every single one of the Kuja aboard the emperess' ship, i.e. the Kuja the rest of the world knew since no one else was allowed to set foot on their island, is a haki user.
To me Smoker's comment is just a bit of world building.And Coby trained under Garp and yet he didn't even know about haki, that's the weird part.
Either you need a certain rank before some higher officer explains it to you or you get the higher rank when you "unlock" haki. Because outside of the Kuja, and we never saw how they train it, all the cases we've seen is of someone using an haki technique without realizing it and then someone tells them "Oh that's haki, you can train how to use it".My head cannon is that you can't unlock haki just by training, you need to train your mind and body in general but only when you get to a dangerous/stressfull moment will haki first manifest itself, and then you can train it.
Btw, I'm on the camp that Oda had a general concept of haki, the ki/chakra/nen/soul power, of his world and he dropped hints whenever he could, but it wasn't a fully detailed idea then and he just made stuff up as he went along. It is confusing or even annoying sometimes but I mostly find fun in creating a headcannon that explains some of the discrepancies.
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My head cannon is that you can't unlock haki just by training, you need to train your mind and body in general but only when you get to a dangerous/stressfull moment will haki first manifest itself, and then you can train it.
That's how I see it as well.
I feel Zoro's "hear the breath of all things" is meant to be "sensing/being made aware of haki". Once Zoro was at death's door, he was able to sense haki, and thus use it to avoid rocks (Observation) and then transfer it to his sword (Armament, so he wouldn't cut a leaf, but was able to cut steel).
Coby's haki awakened during the war, when he could hear the distressed voices of people around him.
Usopp's awakened in Dressrosa, when he had to find a target that he couldn't see by normal means.
Before you are made aware of haki, it's pointless to train it. At best, you need to get yourself in danger and hope it awakens.
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I would hope there’s other ways to unlock haki given all the people on the island of women have haki unlocked too.
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That's how I see it as well.
I feel Zoro's "hear the breath of all things" is meant to be "sensing/being made aware of haki". Once Zoro was at death's door, he was able to sense haki, and thus use it to avoid rocks (Observation) and then transfer it to his sword (Armament, so he wouldn't cut a leaf, but was able to cut steel).
Coby's haki awakened during the war, when he could hear the distressed voices of people around him.
Usopp's awakened in Dressrosa, when he had to find a target that he couldn't see by normal means.
Before you are made aware of haki, it's pointless to train it. At best, you need to get yourself in danger and hope it awakens.
That's all fine in general concept, but it makes no sense for a large military group like Marines. Seastone is scarce and can't be outfitted to every soldier? Well then how about reallocating the resources into training soldiers to use CoA. Each Vice Admiral can use it, along with some lower ranked officers. Sentoumaru certainly wasn't no Vice Admiral when we first met him. It makes no sense for them not to train their soldiers the best they can.
Also, top officers having a special punching ability would be close to impossible to keep a secret in an organization as large as that.
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I would hope there’s other ways to unlock haki given all the people on the island of women have haki unlocked too.
Not everyone there is a warrior. I’d say training people since childhood helps raising the chances. As well as putting them in danger frequently.
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That's all fine in general concept, but it makes no sense for a large military group like Marines. Seastone is scarce and can't be outfitted to every soldier? Well then how about reallocating the resources into training soldiers to use CoA. Each Vice Admiral can use it, along with some lower ranked officers. Sentoumaru certainly wasn't no Vice Admiral when we first met him. It makes no sense for them not to train their soldiers the best they can.
Also, top officers having a special punching ability would be close to impossible to keep a secret in an organization as large as that.
I think rokushiki is exactly that: a path to awaken haki. Once you show promise, you are trained in it in hopes of awakening your abilities. Same with swordsmanship or other structured martial arts, but rokushiki is ained towards awaking haki, hence the similarities.
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That's all fine in general concept, but it makes no sense for a large military group like Marines. Seastone is scarce and can't be outfitted to every soldier? Well then how about reallocating the resources into training soldiers to use CoA. Each Vice Admiral can use it, along with some lower ranked officers. Sentoumaru certainly wasn't no Vice Admiral when we first met him. It makes no sense for them not to train their soldiers the best they can.
Oda had already made enough of a point that Haki only manifests and improves in life-death situations, while fighting strong opponents. Or do you think Rayleigh brought Luffy to Rusukaina because reasons?
It's very likely that the Vice-Admirals didn't obtain Haki by training, but by actually nearly dying in work. It's the same with Kuja, who are a hunter society.
If the Marines actually did have a Haki-training program, few would come out alive.
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Do they force their warriors into the wilderness without weapons like Garp did with Luffy? Do they have a rite of passage where they just throw the women into a pit with a crazed wild animal to force it out of them?
How does it work if a warrior is just naturally talented as a hunter and haven’t unlocked it? Does the tribe hunt her down Ready or Not style and try to kill her until she unlocks it?
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Not to mention a life or death situation doesn’t necessarily mean haki will be unlocked. Think of all the warriors in the series that reached near death, including the Straw Hats themselves.
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Do they force their warriors into the wilderness without weapons like Garp did with Luffy? Do they have a rite of passage where they just throw the women into a pit with a crazed wild animal to force it out of them?
How does it work if a warrior is just naturally talented as a hunter and haven’t unlocked it? Does the tribe hunt her down Ready or Not style and try to kill her until she unlocks it?
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Not to mention a life or death situation doesn’t necessarily mean haki will be unlocked. Think of all the warriors in the series that reached near death, including the Straw Hats themselves.
If a Kuja warrior gets that talented, she will just be recruited to Hancock's crew and fight all sorts of pirates, learning Haki eventually.
Haki is willpower. It's not just putting someone in a life-death situation and hope for the best. They require willpower to come out alive.