Most of the time not always.
Just ask Bernie Madoff how fun those last few years in prison treated him.
Well, as Partison alluded to, Bernie made the huge mistake of swindling our modern-day aristocracy.
American Politics: A Brand New Day
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Defend demonstrators from whom? The gov't? A preposterous twinkie defense that probably gonna get accepted.
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@Johnny:
Well, as Partison alluded to, Bernie made the huge mistake of swindling our modern-day aristocracy.
What was Jeffrey Epstein’s excuse?
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NO ONE is denying that he murdered people, and that he had no reason to be there, or that he brought an assault weapon to a peaceful protest. But still, not guilty?
Cases are tried on the basis of law. The law is pretty cut and dried on what self defense constitutes and that Rittenhouse's actions fall under that ambit. A bunch of criminal attorneys were streaming live commentary of the trial on YouTube. I found that really insightful, please take a look at that as opposed to whatever echo chamber you consume your news from.
In a case where the judge refused to allow evidence that the public has seen, and had a clear bias. Where he would allow the white boy's mother to cry in court, but removed the jury when the black mothers got emotional. Where he refused to allow photos of the murderer celebrating after the killings. Where he allowed the murderer to stage an emotional breakdown with no tears.
All of the evidence the judge refused to allow was inadmissible in this trial. This is consistent with case law. Also, all people who died or wounded were white, so which affected black mothers did he hide from the jury? Similar, the photos of the "murderer" "celebrating" were removed because they were inadmissible to establish premeditated intent, which is the bar to clear for murder. Remember the prosecution was trying him for murder and not manslaughter. Lastly, what do you expect the judge do if someone already on the stand break down before the line of questioning is complete? Forcibly remove them from the stand?
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What is the letter of the law is not always "fair" or "just" is just how the system was built.
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All I’m saying is that this was a slam dunk self-defense case, nothing more. The judge did not act in a biased fashion, and the prosecutor was desperately trying to make extra-judicial arguments in an attempt to taint the character of the defendant.
People acting shocked that he was released are either misinformed or uninformed or deluded.
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Hate to say it, but I'm kind of in agreement with cooldud here. Don't get me wrong, I still think Kyle Rittenhouse is a piece of shit human being who was likely looking for trouble, but according to the letter of the law, I'd say what happened qualifies as self-defense.
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The judge did act in a biased manner no judge I know let’s defendants pick his jurors from a tumbler or tells prosecution they can’t refer to victims as victims. Or goes on a random spiel aboutMSNBC that has little to nothing to do with the trial.
Rittenhouse didn’t need the prosecution to taint his character his actions and his time on the stand showed pretty clearly he was an asshole.
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Most people on my Facebook friend list liked the fact that Rittenhouse was found innocent. I chose however to just say he should've been punished but I decided to say "meh" to this. I would wait and see what will happen to Rittenhouse if he decides to lay low and learn his lesson or mess things up again. I believe like with George Zimmerman he will lay low and stay out of trouble.
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I don't thing signing bags of skittles at gun shows is keeping low profile.
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All of the evidence the judge refused to allow was inadmissible in this trial. This is consistent with case law. Also, all people who died or wounded were white, so which affected black mothers did he hide from the jury? Similar, the photos of the "murderer" "celebrating" were removed because they were inadmissible to establish premeditated intent, which is the bar to clear for murder. Remember the prosecution was trying him for murder and not manslaughter. Lastly, what do you expect the judge do if someone already on the stand break down before the line of questioning is complete? Forcibly remove them from the stand?
I admit that I haven't followed the case very closely and have only gotten a flood of stuff on it since the verdict.
You hear this exact thing happening over and over, I just assumed given what the protest was about, and the publicity that this has gotten, that it was black victims given the literally dozens of cases now where white guy (sometimes cop) murders some black folk and has zero problem getting away with it. I confused it with the other dozens of identical cases. So that is my error.
Yes, to the letter of the law it was self defense.
But he picked up a rifle and went to a protest. You don't do that unless you're expecting or wanting to use it. Two people are dead that wouldn't be if he hadn't. He's responsible for that outcome, no matter if he's not being held accountable. He's a person that killed people, even if he's not a technical legal definition of "murder".
Women rotting in prison who killed their abusers in self-defense would like a word.
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I don't thing signing bags of skittles at gun shows is keeping low profile.
Or agreeing to almost fight DMX at a charity event.
Imagine if the same scenario plays out and he doesn't have his gun? He gets clubbed in the head with a skateboard and at BEST survives a horrible mob beating. Rittenhouse chose retreat before force and the only people responsible for the outcome in this case are Rosenbaum, Huber and Greuesskrewts(?).
If we’re supposed to imagine what would have happened had Rittenhouse had not had a gun (which also doesn’t guarantee he would have been attacked) how about imagining a scenario where Rittenhouse had actually stayed home and out of Kenosha like he should have?
Those people likely don’t get shot at least by Rittenhouse, Rittenhouse doesn’t go on on trial for murder. Even if you want to blame the victims which is stupid to do anyway you slice it, Rittenhouse was still in the wrong for merely being somewhere he wasn’t supposed to be with a weapon he should not have had doing/trying to do something no one told him to do.
Also last I checked people providing triage are not only trained and authorized to do so but they don’t usually carry guns unless of course they’re soldiers.
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284
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Self-defense is a stupid defense if you willingly put yourself into a situation that would require you to act in self-defense. It's like wearing a suit of raw meat into a bear enclosure and then claiming self-defense when you kill a couple of them for attacking you.
Then again, we all know what kind of people are defending shittenhouse and why.
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If we're supposed to imagine what would have happened had Rittenhouse had not had a gun (which also doesn't guarantee he would have been attacked) how about imagining a scenario where Rittenhouse had actually stayed home and out of Kenosha like he should have?
We don't even have to go that far. If he didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have killed Rosenbaum and he wouldn't have been attacked by the mob.
Everything stems from that first incident. Shooting Hoser may have been self-defense in that moment, but it was directly caused by shooting Rosenbaum in the back four times. Which seems like a pretty hard sell as self-defense to a sane person.
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I really don't understand the American mindset. I'd imagine that in a non-gun worshipping nation he would have been on the hook for essentially provoking the series of events where he killed a bunch of people. But in the US walking around with a rifle LARPing as a hero is normal enough that the law covers you for anything done while enacting that fantasy.
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I didn't see anything of the trial myself, but if the comments I've read are to be believed, it was established there that he was helping put out a fire and got attacked by the arsonist, he defended himself and things just kept escalating when the crowd noticed he had shot one of the protesters. In the end, nothing he did that day was really illegal.
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Not much too add myself that hasn't been said already, but just a few thoughts.
One thing I keep seeing from people who saying he was found not guilty equate that to being completely innocent. Based on how the law works and with what he was being charged with, he was found not guilty based on what was presented, or more in this case, he wasn't guilty because self defense was considered fine in this case with a fire arm. However, that doesn't mean he isn't completely blameless, as it's pretty clear that he intentionally went out of his way to go there, not like is was in an area which he lived in. Had he not gone this never would have happened. I find it funny that people I know who always say if people didn't want to face consequences should be more careful with their decisions look the other way in this case where Kyle made the decision to go somewhere where he could easily make others hostile.
With the self defense aspect, self defense is such a loosely defined things that depending on framing and pulling people's emotions you can in many situations make what is clearly a over reaction seem like a reasonable response. A few months ago I was on a jury for aggravated assault with a fire arm, and the defense during the selection process was really playing up the self defense aspect, drilling into everyone if you felt you were in danger would you hesitate to use a fire arm to protect yourself. However, the prosecution went with the idea that self defense should only be used as last resort, and with a fire arm it's an absolute last resort. Can't make any judgements on this case in particular, but with American gun culture on top of a culture where self defense with a fire arm is an absolute right, outside of a video in which a person was restrained with no ability to do harm was shot point blank by Kyle, there was little to no chance of conviction.
Lastly, the idea of justice being served. I believe justice should be not about punishing but rehabilitating. Surrounding the incident it was quite clear that Kyle had a toxic mindset and went in with a hope of things escalating. Even with being acquitted the hope would be that being charged and the past year of his life would be a time to reflect and change for the better. However, with the current political climate the right, especially the far right, are propping him up as a hero who helped uphold the right to bear arms. There's a few politicians who want him to be an intern for them as well. With all that in mind, there is no way that Kyle will have learned anything, as you have a large population that are saying he did nothing wrong and will only embolden him and others like him.
End of the day, just because he was found not guilty by the current law doesn't mean he is completely innocent or that the law itself is completely fair. With how everything played out, there is nothing to say to people like Kyle who may want to go do the same that doing so is a bad idea and wrong, just the opposite.
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I'm always fascinated with the near religious worship of the founding fathers and their ideas.
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Who's Sam Hyde and why do we care if he's defending himself?
I'm always fascinated with the near religious worship of the founding fathers and their ideas.
For those types, I've long since decided that anybody who calls themselves a Patriot isn't. Not in the actual sense of the word, anyway.
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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Who's Sam Hyde and why do we care if he's defending himself?
I'm pretty sure that this is a meme.
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I'm always fascinated with the near religious worship of the founding fathers and their ideas.
Well, they did start the country, it's only natural to hold them in extremely high regard. However, a lot of people aren't following their teachings much at all, or are denying the faults that they had. Washington was an amazing leader, but he had a slave plantation. Double that for Thomas Jefferson who slept with his. Ben Franklin was a genius, but was also a pervy old man who slept around. In fact the only founding father I can think of that was pretty close to exemplary was John Adams; a lawyer who represented the soldiers of the Boston Massacre (because everyone deserves a genuine rep in court), didn't have any slaves, and was devoted to his wife. He did have a notorious rivalry with Jefferson, but they made up at the end.
Point being, they did leave us with a lot of important guidance, but like any actual religious teachings people often twist them for their own use.
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Who's Sam Hyde and why do we care if he's defending himself?
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Imagine living under a Republic driven by "Manifest Destiny" for over 200years… of course people will sculpt the giant heads of some of their presidents on a mountain.
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As a Swede i can't really relate, the founder of my nation is a fact for history class and anything he said or did has no direct impact on my choices in my current life. But i realize that odds are decently high that as a Swede i am the outlier globally speaking.
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Just playing with the thought is wild. Imagine doing something that goes against current sensibilities, and warding off criticism by saying this is how Gustav Vasa did it, and have people just go shit he did do that and what happend in in 1523 is clearly the mark to go by in 2021. To my outsider eyes it seems like a magical charm or something, it shouldn't work but it does.
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My theory is that America is a relatively young nation, at least compared to a lot of the other big nations, and we're at that point where we kind of have to look back and face facts that some of our founding fathers weren't that great and our modern sensibilities don't really gel with theirs.
Of course, we really should have started to accept that back when we abolished slavery.
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We're still pre-teens compared to most other nations.
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If the government would have do their jobs and protect the city they swear to protect .The citizens won’t feel compelled to
Take up arms and defend it themselves. -
In a poll that will likely piss Trump off, the majority of people outside the Republican party reaaalllllly don't like him:
https://secondnexus.com/trump-2024-new-marquette-poll?fbclid=IwAR1x3KNO1pltWPVBIk_XU65lum9MEd8qTgYnc39XdX8ak_pn7ozikC3n9-g -
We're still pre-teens compared to most other nations.
I sometimes have to remind myself of this when I get frustrated that the USA (as a whole) still hasn't completely abolished the death penalty like the vast majority of the west.
Gotta give more time for the "hang 'em high" cowboy mindset to die out completely.
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We won’t abolish the death penalty while we have red states doing their best to kill Roe v Wade.
We’re a living breathing paradox.
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Well, they did start the country, it's only natural to hold them in extremely high regard. However, a lot of people aren't following their teachings much at all, or are denying the faults that they had. Washington was an amazing leader, but he had a slave plantation. Double that for Thomas Jefferson who slept with his. Ben Franklin was a genius, but was also a pervy old man who slept around. In fact the only founding father I can think of that was pretty close to exemplary was John Adams; a lawyer who represented the soldiers of the Boston Massacre (because everyone deserves a genuine rep in court), didn't have any slaves, and was devoted to his wife. He did have a notorious rivalry with Jefferson, but they made up at the end.
Point being, they did leave us with a lot of important guidance, but like any actual religious teachings people often twist them for their own use.
Here in Brazil we weren't that different in becoming an indepedent country and we don't have this worship bs either by the Imperial Family or the first President that we only remember him cause he is in our 25 cents coin.
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My theory is that America is a relatively young nation, at least compared to a lot of the other big nations, and we're at that point where we kind of have to look back and face facts that some of our founding fathers weren't that great and our modern sensibilities don't really gel with theirs.
Of course, we really should have started to accept that back when we abolished slavery.
It's kind how Rome had to make up they were founded by a pair twins raised by a wolf just so people would forget the biggest empire ever at the time wasn't some backwater town in the middle of the map.
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You could argue that post-revolution France, to certain degrees, is also a quite young creation but it'd be weird if young frenchmen walked around saying stuff like this is how Robespierre wanted it while fighting to bring back the gulliotine
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That's because we went through 5 different republics, 2 empires and various kingdoms from the first revolution to 2021 (and also through the Vichy regime :ninja:). And there are lots of people going around like "this is how DeGaulle wanted it". I guess it only works if it's an unifying leader figure though. Robespierre doesn't work that well.
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De gaulle is relatively recent tho. He was president during my mothers lifetime, so i could see people being like things were different back when so and so was in charge. That doesn't read as unusual to me.
Wonder what would be the closest comparison to Americans and the founding fathers? Mao? I mean it is way crazier and fanatical but there is some degree of overlap
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Maybe Bolivar? I don't know how much his actual politics are idolized as opposed to him just being an (inter)national icon.
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Here in Brazil we weren't that different in becoming an indepedent country and we don't have this worship bs either by the Imperial Family or the first President that we only remember him cause he is in our 25 cents coin.
Say that to the Orléans-Bragança at congress and his voters. But yeah the first weirdos in LATAM to create cult of personalities around them were Vargas and Peron, to my knowledge. Coincidence or not both with a flair for fascism, and both still looming shadows in the national politics due to his fan clubs.
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http://European think tank puts US on ‘backsliding’ democracy list for the first time
An actual left wing competent opposition party that fought back sure would be nice right about now (though I will say I've been liking some stuff like raiding Steve Satan Bannon).
I just keep thinking of the Weimar government cracking down hard on the left and letting the right do whatever. -
Comparisons to the Weimar Republic never make sense. The Weimar Republic was a failed state that no one felt too attached to. Really nothing close to the history and institutions of the modern US. There's really nothing about their situation that resembles ours.
Edit: And America is not only one of the oldest democracies, we are among one of the oldest states now too.
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https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2021/11/22/day-307/
1/ The number of U.S. Covid-19 deaths in 2021 surpassed the 2020 death toll. The total number of reported deaths linked to Covid-19 topped 770,800 on Saturday, according to federal data and Johns Hopkins University. New cases, meanwhile, are increasing with the seven-day rolling average ticking up to more than 90,000 cases a day after it dropped to about 70,000 last month. More than 30 states are seeing sustained upticks in infections. (Wall Street Journal / New York Times)
2/ More than 95% of the 3.5 million federal workers are in compliance with the Biden administration’s vaccine mandate. About 90% of workers have received at least one shot and the other 5% have requested a medical or religious exemption that has been either approved or is pending. Workers who are not in compliance will receive “education and counseling” with the goal of getting more federal workers fully vaccinated. Workers who don’t get vaccinated or secure an approved exception could ultimately be terminated. (Reuters / Associated Press / NPR / CNN)
3/ Biden nominated Jerome Powell for a second term as Federal Reserve chairman. Powell, a Republican, was originally appointed to the Fed’s governing board by Obama and was later elevated to the chairman’s post by Trump. Under Powell’s stewardship, the Fed set aside its practice of raising rates to pre-empt inflation and instead has kept interest rates near zero to stimulate a faster recovery following downturns, like from the Covid-19 pandemic. Inflation, meanwhile, has reached a three-decade high with the Labor Department reporting that prices in October were 6.2% higher than a year ago. Biden nominated current Fed governor Lael Brainard – seen as a leading contender to eventually replace Powell – to serve as vice chair. (NPR / Associated Press / Wall Street Journal)
4/ Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson publicly urged the Republican-controlled state Legislature to take over the running of federal elections and direct local officials to ignore election guidance issued by the bipartisan Wisconsin Elections Commission. Johnson, a Republican, claimed that Republican control of Wisconsin elections was necessary despite previously acknowledging that there was “nothing obviously skewed about the results” of the 2020 presidential election. Johnson baselessly accused Democrats of cheating. Last month, a report on the 2020 results that was ordered by Republican state legislators found no evidence of voter fraud. Johnson’s push comes after a Republican member of the State Assembly formally proposed decertifying Wisconsin’s election results, and a Republican sheriff in Racine County called for five members of the state’s six-member election commission to be charged with felonies because they waived a requirement to send poll workers into nursing homes during the pandemic. Biden won Wisconsin last November by about 21,000 votes. In 2016, Trump won Wisconsin by about 23,000 votes. (New York Times / CNN / Washington Post)
5/ Two Fox News commentators resigned in protest over Tucker Carlson’s “documentary” about the Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol. Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes called the series “a collection of incoherent conspiracy-mongering, riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths, deceptive imagery, and damning omissions.” The two longtime conservative commentators concluded that “the voices of the responsible are being drowned out by the irresponsible” at Fox News, adding that Carlson’s three-part series relied on fabrications and unfounded conspiracy theories to exonerate Trump supporters who participated. Carlson, meanwhile, said the departure of Goldberg and Hayes “will substantially improve the channel.” (Washington Post / NPR / New York Times)
6/ A federal judge blamed the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol on Trump, suggesting that the rioters were pawns provoked into action. Speaking at sentencing hearing for rioter John Lolos, Judge Amit Mehta said rallygoers like him were “called to Washington, DC, by an elected official, prompted to walk to the Capitol by an elected official.” Mehta called the rioters who stormed the building “a pawn in the game played by people who know better.” Lolos received a 14-day jail sentence after pleading guilty to illegally demonstrating in the Capitol building. (Politico / CNN)
7/ Organizers for the Jan. 6 rally at the White House Ellipse coordinated closely with the White House, according to leaked group text messages. The messages from Amy Kremer and her daughter, Kylie Jane Kremer, detail their coordination with Trump’s team on the rally, including an in-person meeting at the White House, working with the team to announce the event, promote it, and grant access to VIP guests. “We are following POTUS’ lead,” Kylie wrote the group on Jan. 1 – before the Ellipse rally was publicly announced. Two days later, March For Trump organizer Dustin Stockton texted the group chat to ask who was “handling” rally credentials for VIPs. “It’s a combination of us and WH,” Kylie replied. The House Select Committee investigating the attack, meanwhile, has subpoenaed documents and testimony from both Amy and Kylie Kremer. Congressional investigators have reportedly obtained “tons of” group chats from the organizers. (Rolling Stone)
8/ The House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 Capitol insurrection subpoenaed five more people, including Roger Stone and Alex Jones. The committee has asked Stone and Jones to provide testimony by Dec. 17 and Dec, 18, respectively, and to provide the panel with requested documents by Dec. 6. The committee is also demanding records and testimony from Dustin Stockton, Jennifer Lawrence who was also involved in organizing the rally that preceded the Capitol riot, and Taylor Budowich, who organized an advertising campaign to encourage attendance at the Jan. 6 rally. The panel has subpoenaed more than 20 witnesses and has interviewed more than 150 people across government, social media, and law enforcement. (Associated Press / NBC News / Washington Post)
9/ The United States – for the first time – was added to a list of “backsliding democracies,” according to the International IDEA’s Global State of Democracy 2021 report. “The United States, the bastion of global democracy, fell victim to authoritarian tendencies itself, and was knocked down a significant number of steps on the democratic scale,” the report said, pointing to a “visible deterioration” that began in 2019. “A historic turning point came in 2020-21 when former president Donald Trump questioned the legitimacy of the 2020 election results in the United States.” More than a quarter of the world’s population lives in democratically backsliding countries. (Washington Post / The Guardian / CBS News)
Waldorf: You know Statler, after watching the last one thousand episodes of One Piece, I think I've come to a conclusion.
Statler: No you haven't.
Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!
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Backsliding? I believe it.
De gaulle is relatively recent tho. He was president during my mothers lifetime, so i could see people being like things were different back when so and so was in charge. That doesn't read as unusual to me.
Wonder what would be the closest comparison to Americans and the founding fathers? Mao? I mean it is way crazier and fanatical but there is some degree of overlap
Maybe Lenin. Stalin was a real shithead that Russians didn't want to admit was a shithead, but Lenin died before doing anything too bad and left all communist-thinkers with a lot of ideals.
China's revolution was really started by Sun Yat-Sen. Mao just took over the reins and forced his "I'm so awesome" on everybody by force. You'll find a lot of people in China right now who don't think he was the bee's knees.
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We all know what Rittenhouse is, but it speaks well of his lawyer that he railed on the GOP for trying to capitalize on the kid's notoriety.
https://www.comicsands.com/rittenhouse-lawyer-idiot-trump-jr-2655775537.html?fbclid=IwAR0GTMqGC7ixYT95oMR7ktm2zFGtoIbxASO8V7akwZCSTbPQzxfRrtplVv4That and, y'know, he won the case for his client.
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5/ Two Fox News commentators resigned in protest over Tucker Carlson’s “documentary” about the Jan. 6 insurrection at the Capitol. Jonah Goldberg and Stephen Hayes called the series “a collection of incoherent conspiracy-mongering, riddled with factual inaccuracies, half-truths, deceptive imagery, and damning omissions.” The two longtime conservative commentators concluded that “the voices of the responsible are being drowned out by the irresponsible” at Fox News, adding that Carlson’s three-part series relied on fabrications and unfounded conspiracy theories to exonerate Trump supporters who participated. Carlson, meanwhile, said the departure of Goldberg and Hayes “will substantially improve the channel.”
when will tucker carlson disappear from our lives forever
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@Dorobō:
And America is not only one of the oldest democracies, we are among one of the oldest states now too.
Is it really? Suppose it depends on how you define it but it sure suprised me.
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I guess if you count by unchanged reign form.
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I'm always fascinated with the near religious worship of the founding fathers and their ideas.
I feel I have some handle on this as an immigrant to this country.
America as an experiment is such a unique blend of values that have stood the test of time. It is really a philosophical idea: all people created equal, true freedoms against tyranny, separation of church and state. One of the hallmarks to me personally is how it talks very carefully about where the power of government against the people is constrained, instead of simply enumerating the powers of he government, as such a document would do. All these ideas in one place at one time. Add to that Washington's voluntary relinquishment of power, Madison's views on limits of federal power and Hamilton's views on banking. It is the culmination of the entire European age of enlightenment in one perfect document.
The country has gone to war multiple times to protect these ideals, even against itself. And continues to endure. There are lots of things wrong in how the country is working, the class gap is a huge deal, the race stuff less so. But the ideals behind the country are sound and some of the greatest ideas to ever base a country on. And that's why people continue to flock here, despite all the flaws.
Try reading the first few bits of the American constitution. It simply truly a great document.
Europe doesn't compare at all. Most of your continent hasn't even properly separated church from state. And there's the weird thing you have where one family of humans are somehow superior to all others.
