Most were asked, Robin asked herself, its gotta be vocalized to be official.
Carrot's just as official as Jhonny, Yozaku, Carue, Camie, Pappug, Momo, Kin'emon, Law, Kanjuro, etc.
I recall that Luffy didn't exactly ask Franky either. lol
Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)
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Most were asked, Robin asked herself, its gotta be vocalized to be official.
You keep making up rules out of nowhere. Just because Carrot hasn't explicitedly asked to join does not mean she changed her desire to travel with the crew. Until her story is over, you can't say she's not joining with certainty.
And, as Alfiere pointed, the only two things that can prevent Carrot joining are:
- She changes her mind
- Luffy denies her
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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So, better check your logic again.
Checked it.
Checks brought up that since you didn't even try to actually address my 2 points and went straight to "what about carrot then lol", my logic stands as correct.
If Yams' not joining story has to go through either point 1 or 2 and it has to makes sense. That's all there is.Curiosity has its own reason for existing
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You keep making up rules out of nowhere. Just because Carrot hasn't explicitedly asked to join does not mean she changed her desire to travel with the crew. Until her story is over, you can't say she's not joining with certainty.
And, as Alfiere pointed, the only two things that can prevent Carrot joining are:
- She changes her mind
- Luffy denies her
I get the impression the fun discussions regarding potential crewmates has turned into intense competitions. lol
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You keep making up rules out of nowhere. Just because Carrot hasn't explicitedly asked to join does not mean she changed her desire to travel with the crew. Until her story is over, you can't say she's not joining with certainty.
And, as Alfiere pointed, the only two things that can prevent Carrot joining are:
- She changes her mind
- Luffy denies her
Vocalizing on official membership is made up? Wow…
Also, Carrot has never stated any wishes to travel specifically with the crew. Talk about made up stuff...
She's just interested in seeing the world, for which I always argued she's going to keep that interest and do it with Nox 2.0
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I get the impression the fun discussions regarding potential crewmates has turned into intense competitions. lol
They have. Its frankly stupidly annoying as people argue about this silly topic as if their very lives were in the balance. That if Carrot didn't join, Carrot supporters would die. And if Yamato didn't join, Yamato supporters would have to flee their loan sharks or something.
Its just dumb.
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Checked it.
Checks brought up that since you didn't even try to actually address my 2 points and went straight to "what about carrot then lol", my logic stands as correct.
If Yams' not joining story has to go through either point 1 or 2 and it has to makes sense. That's all there is.With just small adaptations for character-specific arguments, every single line of your posts apply to Carrot.
Every. Single. Line.
Here, let me show:
! Fact is, plain and simple one of these two things have to happen now in order for Carrot not joining:
! 1) Carrot makes an heels turn and goes "actually, I've had enough fun and had enough adventure, actually nevermind that I've disobeyed orders and left my home to have adventures with you, and forget all the good times we had and all the nakamaship we developed together, or Pedro's words for me to keep moving forward, I've decided to go home"
! Or
! 2)Luffy says no.
! Tertium non datur.
! 1 would be really awkward. 2 would be unprecedented and completely out of character for Luffy and it would also raise the need for way more explanations.
Both 1 and 2 could very well happen still, but they'd need story context. Number theories won't do, obscure callbacks to old panels won't do, alleged parallels with other characters won't do. The story will have to the us why the character that the story thus far said was joining won't.
If you don't accept your logic works for another character that is in the same situation, then your logic doesn't work. It's simple as that.
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Hey now, it was explicitly written in Oden's journal that those following false nakama will be banished to Blackbeard's smelly unwashed shadow realm.
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Gee, I wonder if naively stowing away for a fun little day trip in an Emperor's territory with only a handful of carrots and a spare set of clothes that ends up in your "mentor" sacrificing himself so that you can barely escape, then two weeks later you meet the person your mentor tried to kill and blindly go for "revenge" but get your ass kicked hard even though you and your best friend tag-teamed him in your strongest forms, could potentially make you reevaluate your life choices and if traveling the New World in your current state is as fun an adventure as you hoped it would be.
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Gee, I wonder if naively stowing away for a fun little day trip in an Emperor's territory with only a handful of carrots and a spare set of clothes that ends up in your "mentor" sacrificing himself so that you can barely escape, then two weeks later you meet the person your mentor tried to kill and blindly go for "revenge" but get your ass kicked hard even though you and your best friend tag-teamed him in your strongest forms, could potentially make you reevaluate your life choices and if traveling the New World in your current state is as fun an adventure as you hoped it would be.
So, you mean characters can learn from their experiences and change their expectations, leading to growth and new objectives as they face situations they didn't expect?
Wow!
The fun part of this is that I'm not even defending Carrot joining. I'm just using the exact same arguments people are using for Yamato, to show how flawed that logic is.
And the answers to my Devil's Advocate of Carrot? The same logic I've been applying to show that nothing is set in stone for Yamato.
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First, there have been a lot of spoiler leaks lately. This is a warning to everyone not to reference anything from any unreleased chapter, what it does or doesn't have, any hints about what you know. Any more issues will result in infractions and/or spoiler board bans.
Second, no more slinging accusations of trolling. Make your arguments about the issue and not about the person. And if you don't think they're arguing in good faith,, either put them on your ignore list or report them.
Like the Avatar? / Like the Miis?Dragalia Lost ID: 97617932505
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I’m still waiting on Yamato or Carrot to get a proper flash back, mentor and dream like the other Straw Hats got before I’m completely on board with either one
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That reminds me. Toei revealed it was Yamato watching the crew. That might count for interactions with the crew outside Luffy, but then is it canon? It's the closest to helping Franky so far. Looks like he might be up there with pops for a while. If only Oda had him drop Momo retainer duty for just a second to interact with more of the crew.
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I’m still waiting on Yamato or Carrot to get a proper flash back, mentor and dream like the other Straw Hats got before I’m completely on board with either one
We're in the same boat then. Though Carrot needs to return to the story first. We haven't seen her since the beginning of March.
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Even if Yamato feels they have a duty to protect Momonosuke, Momonosuke will not allow that when it comes at the expense of Yamato's dream. Momonosuke's arc is about growing into a leader that will change Wano Kuni and eventually be the driving force behind the liberation of the world from the World Government and their deception, manipulation and malice. If anything, Momonosuke's path of liberation could start with Yamato by absolving Yamato of any obligations he may feel he has to Wano Kuni. If a compromise needs to be reached, Momonosuke may even tell Yamato to return to Wano after he has his adventure with the Straw Hat Pirates and sailed to Laugh Tale.
Monmonosuke has to come to learn about his importance and potentially the importance of the Straw Hat Pirates concerning the fight his father (and mother) died for (assisting those that will see Joy Boy's will through). Momonosuke is also rapidly coming to understand the benefit Yamato can have toward reaching such an end (knowledge, strength and intention) and rather than continuing to shackle Yamato to Wano Kuni and the Kozuki family, Momonosuke will instead support Yamato's desire to join the Straw Hat Pirates. Momonosuke has learned about Yamato's story and has read Oden's journal and knows about how the two were shackled to Wano. If Yamato wants to be Oden, Momonosuke will not be the Sukiyaki in that story. Momonosuke will be Momonosuke. By opening up Wano's borders, Momonosuke will also open up the path toward Yamato seeing their dream fulfilled.
The focus Oda has given to the Yamato and Momonosuke relationship isn't inconsequential but rather substantial for a reason - because Momonosuke will have a hand in directing Yamato to joining the Straw Hat Pirates.
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Most SH's joined plain and simple, and simplicity might just be the actual answer.
Sort of like Greg said the other day, its better to ask yourselves what the most beneficial follow up would be?
What's been the benefits of constant neglection of Carrot and Hancock during the last arc of the Yonkou Saga and the subsecuent start of the last saga of the series?
What is there to gain after consistently repeating an intention of sailing with Luffy and then Oops nop, that'll land in the fandom as an absolute disappointment at the very least, so if that's what Oda is targeting to, he's totally going to achieve it.
Is it even worthy to play Red Herring anymore?
Most candidates didn't even claim any intention of sailing, much less said so repeatedly. So the blame could only fall on us, for our delusional expectations, but this one time, its Oda himself generating an expectation, targeting the entire blame on himself, and I just don't see Oda purposely bringing so much negativity on himself, at least not for good reason.
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Also worth noting, Yamato's story aligns itself considerably with the Straw Hat Pirates remaining journey. And I believe that is by design by Oda.
Oda has also constructed Yamato to have a lot of potential concerning the larger world of One Piece and that could indicate a desire by him to explore Yamato's character further beyond the Wano arc.
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I’m still waiting on Yamato or Carrot to get a proper flash back, mentor and dream like the other Straw Hats got before I’m completely on board with either one
Well that if Oda doesnt forget about Carrot.
The thing is, even if she reached top 10 in the popularity poll, she doesnt even appear in the chapters since March (?), not even in glimpse among random shots of raid participants.
Denjiro is also missing tho, wonder what happened with him…
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LOL. Now Yamato is Vivi?
Wow.
At this point I wonder who will she be compared to next? Camie? Wiper? Conis? Johnny & Yosaku? Gin perhaps?
@Monquito:Wait… So..
You have chosen to believe that; non-existent panelling=highly likely future nakama.
That's weird.
The entire thing is weird. The things chosen to be overanalyze and then the other things that have no basis in fact.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
With just small adaptations for character-specific arguments, every single line of your posts apply to Carrot.
Every. Single. Line.
Here, let me show:
! Fact is, plain and simple one of these two things have to happen now in order for Carrot not joining:
! 1) Carrot makes an heels turn and goes "actually, I've had enough fun and had enough adventure, actually nevermind that I've disobeyed orders and left my home to have adventures with you, and forget all the good times we had and all the nakamaship we developed together, or Pedro's words for me to keep moving forward, I've decided to go home"
! Or
! 2)Luffy says no.
! Tertium non datur.
! 1 would be really awkward. 2 would be unprecedented and completely out of character for Luffy and it would also raise the need for way more explanations.
Both 1 and 2 could very well happen still, but they'd need story context. Number theories won't do, obscure callbacks to old panels won't do, alleged parallels with other characters won't do. The story will have to the us why the character that the story thus far said was joining won't.If you don't accept your logic works for another character that is in the same situation, then your logic doesn't work. It's simple as that.
But why does that even matter? He was talking about Yamato not Carrot.
Instead of addressing or rebutting his post you just say that counts for Carrot too!
Its like you gave up on discussing and just threw Carrot in there for the fuck of it.
Same goes for Caribou and his character arc. So what?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So, you mean characters can learn from their experiences and change their expectations, leading to growth and new objectives as they face situations they didn't expect?
Wow!
The fun part of this is that I'm not even defending Carrot joining. I'm just using the exact same arguments people are using for Yamato, to show how flawed that logic is.
And the answers to my Devil's Advocate of Carrot? The same logic I've been applying to show that nothing is set in stone for Yamato.
If you're going to compare Yamato to Carrot. Especially their situations then Yamato would have to join and experience what exploring the world and going on adventures mean for him to learn from them.
What you've been going on about with Yamato is before he even gets a taste of his dream he will change his mind or be shackled by duty and responsibility cuz he wants to be like Oden.
Its especially funny cuz at the same time there's talk of Yamato dropping the Oden shtick and embracing his true self which would definitely lead to him leaving since he would absolutely have no ties to protecting Wano after taking down Kaido.
Its like either way leads to Yamato leaving with Luffy.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Even if Yamato feels they have a duty to protect Momonosuke, Momonosuke will not allow that when it comes at the expense of Yamato's dream. Momonosuke's arc is about growing into a leader that will change Wano Kuni and eventually be the driving force behind the liberation of the world from the World Government and their deception, manipulation and malice. If anything, Momonosuke's path of liberation could start with Yamato by absolving Yamato of any obligations he may feel he has to Wano Kuni. If a compromise needs to be reached, Momonosuke may even tell Yamato to return to Wano after he has his adventure with the Straw Hat Pirates and sailed to Laugh Tale.
Monmonosuke has to come to learn about his importance and potentially the importance of the Straw Hat Pirates concerning the fight his father (and mother) died for (assisting those that will see Joy Boy's will through). Momonosuke is also rapidly coming to understand the benefit Yamato can have toward reaching such an end (knowledge, strength and intention) and rather than continuing to shackle Yamato to Wano Kuni and the Kozuki family, Momonosuke will instead support Yamato's desire to join the Straw Hat Pirates. Momonosuke has learned about Yamato's story and has read Oden's journal and knows about how the two were shackled to Wano. If Yamato wants to be Oden, Momonosuke will not be the Sukiyaki in that story. Momonosuke will be Momonosuke. By opening up Wano's borders, Momonosuke will also open up the path toward Yamato seeing their dream fulfilled.
The focus Oda has given to the Yamato and Momonosuke relationship isn't inconsequential but rather substantial for a reason - because Momonosuke will have a hand in directing Yamato to joining the Straw Hat Pirates.
Now that's character growth for Momo.
Kinda been taken for granted Momo would be asking or ordering Yamato to stay especially in the situation after Kaido is defeated.
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What is there to gain after consistently repeating an intention of sailing with Luffy and then Oops nop, that'll land in the fandom as an absolute disappointment at the very least, so if that's what Oda is targeting to, he's totally going to achieve it.
Oda can be ridiculously cruel in this regard, don't think for a second he will care if the fandom is disappointed because someone didn't end up joining.
In fact he's betting on the disappointment, he baths in bittersweet goodbyes (which are mostly bitter and rarely sweet).
The crew was waiting for Vivi at the port, only for her to show up to say she would love to go with them on adventures - but alas she can't.
Bon Clay acted as a substitute for Luffy's crew during Impel Down, with a bonding-moment that outshines even some of the actual members - only to end up as the only Impel Down escapee left behind. Everyone and their mother managed to escape that shithole - except for Bon. It was the only way to keep him from joining after all.
Hell, even the absolute non-candidate Shirahoshi had an intimate "we will get you later!" goodbye.
The fact that Yamato wants to sail with Luffy is big, but sets nothing in stone. It needs to be addressed, but everyone should be prepared for Yams going a route that will allow him to play a role in Wano, while at the same time going on adventures.
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We're in the same boat then. Though Carrot needs to return to the story first. We haven't seen her since the beginning of March.
Yeah I would agree appearing in the arc in which you might join is probably necessary, it will feel weird if she's neglected this whole time only to appear at the end of the arc and get shoehorned into joining the crew with no real importance to the story at hand
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I wouldn't be disappointed if Yamato didn't join. It would just mean my speculation based on his bold statements and actions were build up for something else.
No one has been this aggressive before when it comes to demanding to be a SH. Maybe Robin getting on the ship is close, but she still did it as a form of a reasonable request.
Yamato is saying the opposite of what Robin said. Robin was forced to live and the one responsible has to make room for her living in their space. Yamato's reasoning sounds like he doesn't care if Luffy understands why, it makes sense to him and he will ride the ship. One is up to Luffy and the other really isn't.
Not like his retainer narrative isn't right in my face as well.
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Yamato can not join if whatever Oda is planning for him is comparable in writing quality and meaning to his character arc as joining the crew would be. There is no disappointement if the red herring leads to a better, or at least as good, outcome.
Vivi is the perfect example of that, but it doesn't mean Yamato has to be a repeat of that. It doesn't mean he can't either, though.
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About Carrot not appearing much lately, I have a small theory on why and what her purpose/arc is. I don't think she's going to join, but I'm certain her character arc is going to be addressed and resolved at some point.
Here are my thoughts:
Wano is not just Kaido's arc. It's the conclusion of the "Yonko Saga". It will close a lot, and I really mean A LOT of threads that have been left dangling for the past ten or so years. Not everything, some threads will go on next saga. But the major ones, the ones linked to Kaido and Big Mom, will get resolution.
WHat makes me think this?
First, the way the past arcs that form what I call "Yonko Saga" interweave Kaido and Big Mom together, despite their stories starting apart.
I believe the first arc of the Yonko Saga was Punk Hazard. But the saga actually started in the Fishman Island epilogue.
Big Mom Act - Fishman Island Epilogue: Here we are introduced to Big Mom. We knew Fishman Island is her territory already, but near the end of the arc we find out that Jinbe is under Big Mom as well, and that's why he couldn't accept Luffy's request to join. We also get the first glimpse of Pudding, and get to know Pekoms and Tamago, who will later tie into Zou. Luffy picks a fight with Big Mom, and the Tamatebakko with the bomb trap is given to Big Mom. All setup for things that will only pay-off much much later.
Kaido Act - Punk Hazard: Here we have the whole alliance with Law to take one Yonko, who we later find out to be Kaido. Caesar is introduced (who's essential to Kaido's plot, but later we find out was also linked to Big Mom, and will be the first key to tie both Yonko's stories together). Kid/Apoo/Hawkins alliance is also introduced. Kin'emon and Momonosuke introduced. First mentions of Kuri, hints of Oden, Ancient Giant experimentation on Punk Hazard hinted.
Kaido Act, but with a bit of Big Mom - Dressrosa: THis continues Punk Hazard, and Doflamingo is directly linked to Kaido. Most here will lead into Wano, but there's a small bit of Big Mom when her pirates appear to retrieve Caesar, forcing the "Curlybrow team" to move on to Zou before the end of the act. Its conclusion sets Kaido in collision course with Luffy/Law, as well as leads to the capture of Kid and Hawkins joining the Beasts Pirates.
Kaido/Big Mom Act - Zou: While Kaido is moving the strings on the key events on Zou, it's the Big Mom Pirates that arrive there and take Sanji and Caesar. This is the point when the Kaido/Big Mom plots first interweave perfectly, leading to what will happen later in Wano.
Big Mom Act - Whole Cake Island: The Kaido plot that dominated the Yonko saga so far halts so Big Mom, introduced way back in the saga's prologue, can finally have her moment and is led to Wano later. We pick back Jinbe's story, Pudding gets the spotlight, characters initially linked to the Kaido story (Pedro and Carrot) get their beef with the Big Mom Pirates. The Straw Hats that were absent from Dressrosa (Kaido act) get conflicts with Big Mom instead (Nami - Zeus/Lola, Brook gets some kind of relationship with Big Mom, Jinbe leaving Big Mom, and so on). Carrot gets her big motivator going forward (Pedro's sacrifice and last words to her).
Kaido Act - Wano Act 1: Before Wano actually began, we were all sure it would be Kaido's arc, and the conclusion of the "Kaido saga". But no, since the start of the arc, we start moving Kaido and Big Mom together, so their stories become one. Big Mom threatens to go to Wano, and offers Kaido an alliance for the first time. The threat of an Yonko alliance sparks talks of "Rocks", which we didn't know what it was back then. Aside from that, there's no Big Mom in this act yet.
Kaido Act, but Big Mom is also here - Wano Act 2: The Big Mom Pirates arrive. There's two reminders during the act that Kaido and Big Mom used to be in the same crew (first when the Big Mom pirates are discussing what to doafter they are thrown down the waterfall, then when Beast Pirates are talking about a captured Big Mom). Big Mom surrenders to Queen (thought it's made to appear like she just fell sleep) because she wanted to be brought to Kaido. Kaido and Big Mom clash, but end up allying instead.
Kaido Act, but Big Mom is still here - Wano Act 3: We find out the story of Rocks, and suddenly the Kaido/Big Mom threat becomes the "Return of Rocks". While Big Mom is often treated like a joke, we are always reminded that she's no pushover. The Big Mom Pirates almost arrive, but are delayed, so the Beast Pirates remain the sole threat. However, Big Mom and Perospero are kept as movers and shakers, but often fade into the background so Kaido and the Beast Pirates get the most attention. We get hints that Kaido expects betrayal. Big Mom seems to imply ulterior motives to Perospero. We are briefly reminded that Pudding may be able to read poneglyphs (if her lineage awakens). Carrot gets some small attention - coincidently in the same act as the Big Mom part of the story gets smaller attention in comparison to Kaido. Carrot's arc words (Pedro's words) are repeated. Carrot then fades into the background again, waiting her resolution.
So, what I think the future holds?
I've been saying (and mocked) repeatedly that the Big Mom Pirates will arrive, and Perospero is the key to that. I think Oda reserved Act 3 to deal mostly with the Kaido side of the story, while everything Big Mom related is kept waiting for now, since dealing with both threats at the same time would make everything slow down to an even worse pacing. I feel Kaido's forces will suffer some defeats now, enough to appear like we will winning. Then the Big Mom part of the story comes to the forefront, and Act 4 begins.
Act 4 will be the big, fast-paced conclusion to both stories. This is when both Kaido and Big Mom, and their crews, are defeated. We get revelations about Rocks. This will also bring complications from WCI. For instance, I think Pudding's story will pick up again, as strange as it seems. That's the point I believe Carrot gets the spotlight back and finally resolves her character arc.
Act 5 is the epilogue, when we close almost everything we have been dealing with since Fishman Island epilogue. Jinbe finally joins and gets his party. Both Sanji's and Zoro's stories from WCI and Wano also get resolution. Carrot and Yamato situations are resolved. All the info from ponelglyphs from both WCI and Wano are unveiled at once.
That's what I'm betting on happening.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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I don't think she's going to join, but I'm certain her character arc is going to be addressed and resolved at some point.
Act 4 will be the big, fast-paced conclusion to both stories. This is when both Kaido and Big Mom, and their crews, are defeated. We get revelations about Rocks. This will also bring complications from WCI. For instance, I think Pudding's story will pick up again, as strange as it seems. That's the point I believe Carrot gets the spotlight back and finally resolves her character arc.
Act 5 is the epilogue, when we close almost everything we have been dealing with since Fishman Island epilogue. Jinbe finally joins and gets his party. Both Sanji's and Zoro's stories from WCI and Wano also get resolution. Carrot and Yamato situations are resolved. All the info from ponelglyphs from both WCI and Wano are unveiled at once.
That's what I'm betting on happening.
Possible that Carrot's narrative carries into something connecting to Pekoms and Germa's freedom. Don't know if the Wano spills into that immediately tho.
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Possible that Carrot's narrative carries into something connecting to Pekoms and Germa's freedom. Don't know if the Wano spills into that immediately tho.
I'm far from sure, but Germa's story is one of the few that I'm not expecting to be concluded in Wano. Maybe we get some info on what happened to them. But, due to some of the Germa themes crossing over with Vegapunk and Caesar, I'd bet more on their story coming back in the Vegapunk arc, even if they didn't survive WCI.
Now, Pekoms is someone I expect to hear about in Wano.
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Man, you just made me realise something…
Kin’emon may die because Yamato left Momonosuke’s side too early.Holy shit...
Yes, I think this is quite possibly a big deal. I had the same thought, so I agree that this is potentially quite significant. There are a few factors at play here and the Straw Hats haven't always followed orders, but generally speaking, characters willing to submit to Luffy as their captain fall in line and do as he tells them. Even characters who take charge like Jimbei and Zoro make sure to direct their counsel at Luffy such that he can be the one to give orders to the crew.
Luffy gave Yamato a job to do. I think she was motivated to go to the roof by some knowledge about Kaido's Devil Fruit ability which has not yet been made clear. She specifically said she had to hurry when she found out Luffy was alone and repeated the phrase 'one on one…', which seems like an intentional reference to the narration box accompanying Kaido's introduction: "in a one on one fight, always bet on Kaido." Going back to stuff I have said earlier, I think fortune favors Kaido when he's facing someone (even himself) one on one.
But importantly, Yamato already devised the plan to leave Momo and Shinobu between floors and was headed to the roof before Momo told her that Luffy was fighting Kaido solo. I think this does go back to Ace's line that Yamato is fit t be a captain. Beyond strength, I think it's about being willful and self-guided enough to be a leader rather than a follower. Yamato was so anxious to fight that she neglected the primary objective with which she was charged by Luffy.
Resultantly, she was not present when Kanjuro and Kaido arrived. I don't think she could have done anything about Kiku's fate. Kanjuro would have adopted Oden's likeness regardless and Kiku would have chosen to settle things herself regardless of whether Yamato was protecting Momo. I think her fate was already sealed at that point. But Yamato could have held off her father - and that means Kinemon's sacrifice may not have been necessary. So failure to follow Luffy's orders could very well lead to the death of Kinemon. That's a hell of a consequence.
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So we're already in mental gymnastics territory i see…Yamato is Jinbe all over again.
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I am still on the camp that the new crew member will be introduced on the next island.
Otherwise, Yamato is by far the closest we've had to a candidate.
I think that with Wano being liberated and information of the Void Century being revealed, the Samurais, Minks even Yamato are going to try and push the child of destiny onto Luffy and the latter will tell them to stop that, maybe even pushing the Straw Hats to escape at night. Although, I did have another ending for Wano in mind, but it seems unlikely at this point. Even if Oda likes to tease about it.
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If Yamato had been in the room when Kanjuro showed up, he would have been deceived by the Oden fake too and would just have a sword in the belly for his trouble. Not to mention, if Yamato introduced himself to Kinemon as Oden, after Kanjuro had already done his trick? Might have gotten a sword to the belly for his trouble.
And, though he can hold off Kaidou, we saw on the roof that it doesn't matter if you have backup, the weaker characters get beat down as collateral. Yamato being in the room might have spared Kinemon, it might not have, Maybe he uses a blast attack instead of hitting him with his mace. At best trying to protect a target would just leave Yamato open to direct attacks that he'd then be tanking instead of dodging.
He left Momo in a safe place with help just a moment away. And if he'd been allowed to leave sooner he MIGHT have gotten to the roof on time and started stalling Kaidou sooner, or kept Luffy from being knocked off.
Either way this is One Piece, so Kinemon's either not dead, or will have a heartwarming speech when he does and be okay with it. (A WAR should have at least one casualty after all.) Or a fire festival spirit. Same with all the other "surely dead now" Scabbards.
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Tsuru and Kin'emon will embrace again.
Not even "death" will stop Kin'emon from that.
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The Kinnemon's possible death is Yamato's fault is just dumb reasoning.
Nobody in the story is going to be reaching to blame Yamato of all ppl for that. Not even Yamato himself.
Kaido hurt or killed Kinnemon. Yamato's presence does nkt guarantee it wouldn't have happened.
That's like trying to blame Jimbe for Ace's death cuz he wasn't there to protect Luffy from Akainu…again.
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@Zik:
The Kinnemon's possible death is Yamato's fault is just dumb reasoning.
Nobody in the story is going to be reaching to blame Yamato of all ppl for that. Not even Yamato himself.
Kaido hurt or killed Kinnemon. Yamato's presence does nkt guarantee it wouldn't have happened.
That's like trying to blame Jimbe for Ace's death cuz he wasn't there to protect Luffy from Akainu…again.
I mean, Yamato warned them of the Marys and was eager to help Luffy out after finding out Luffy was in a one on one round against Kaido, which Luffy lost, which led to Kaido being allowed to swoop on down with nothing in his way and hurt Kinemon in the process.
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Not following Luffy's orders to protect Momo for your own selfish reason is SH material.
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I think it's really interesting Sanji can be blamed for 'not trusting the crew' and going to Whole Cake Island alone, but the new fan favorite Yamato is entirely immune to the slightest bit of criticism.\
Yamato left Momo in a place she thought was safe. She was wrong. It was not safe and they were found almost immediately.
And no, there are no mental gymnastics. And I believed Jimbei was joining during late Impel Down, so not comparable at all. But what can I say, this continues the trend.
But I also think Yamato has to many direct parallels to Luffy (eating DF the same way for example). I'm not a big power scaling person, but Yamato presently seems to be stronger than Zoro. She's holding off her father in his Hybrid form for longer than Zoro could and she seems to have a better grasp on conqueror's haki. Forget any concerns about Jimbei breaking up the Monster Trio. Whether or not she outranks Zoro, Yamato would almost certainly come in ahead of Sanji.
This is not mental gymnastics. This is not trolling. This is not all the other things that Yamato stans want to label it. It's a genuine opinion. What is the point of this thread if not to discuss ideas? You people act like this is a competition and try to diagnose the mental deficiency which produces counter arguments.
Not to mention really similar arguments are used against Carrot joining all the time. People in this thread went crazy over Usopp climbing the mast to snipe some guards and treated it like some smoking gun. You can sure bet that if the shoe were on the other foot and Carrot ignored Luffy's orders, the same people saying it's mental gymnastics to even consider the possibility Yamato is too similar to Luffy to submit to Luffy as a captain, would be singing a completely different tune if it didn't apply to Yamato.
I also never said anyone in the story will blame Yamato. I'm saying from an outside perspective, Yamato wanted to go help Luffy fight Kaido. Luffy had already given her a job to do and she stopped doing it. Noble intention or not, she didn't follow Luffy's orders and things went disastrously wrong soon afterward.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
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If Yamato had been in the room when Kanjuro showed up, he would have been deceived by the Oden fake too and would just have a sword in the belly for his trouble. Not to mention, if Yamato introduced himself to Kinemon as Oden, after Kanjuro had already done his trick? Might have gotten a sword to the belly for his trouble.
And, though he can hold off Kaidou, we saw on the roof that it doesn't matter if you have backup, the weaker characters get beat down as collateral. Yamato being in the room might have spared Kinemon, it might not have, Maybe he uses a blast attack instead of hitting him with his mace. At best trying to protect a target would just leave Yamato open to direct attacks that he'd then be tanking instead of dodging.
He left Momo in a safe place with help just a moment away. And if he'd been allowed to leave sooner he MIGHT have gotten to the roof on time and started stalling Kaidou sooner, or kept Luffy from being knocked off.
Either way this is One Piece, so Kinemon's either not dead, or will have a heartwarming speech when he does and be okay with it. (A WAR should have at least one casualty after all.) Or a fire festival spirit. Same with all the other "surely dead now" Scabbards.
Pretty much, its pretty disingenuous to say otherwise.
If were gonna follow this logic down the pit where it comes from Luffy is to blame as if he didn't fall Kinemon would be fine, but we can follow this logic with other people to but its just foolish.
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I think it's really interesting Sanji can be blamed for 'not trusting the crew' and going to Whole Cake Island alone, but the new fan favorite Yamato is entirely immune to the slightest bit of criticism.\
Yamato left Momo in a place she thought was safe. She was wrong. It was not safe and they were found almost immediately.
And no, there are no mental gymnastics. And I believed Jimbei was joining during late Impel Down, so not comparable at all. But what can I say, this continues the trend.
But I also think Yamato has to many direct parallels to Luffy (eating DF the same way for example). I'm not a big power scaling person, but Yamato presently seems to be stronger than Zoro. She's holding off her father in his Hybrid form for longer than Zoro could and she seems to have a better grasp on conqueror's haki. Forget any concerns about Jimbei breaking up the Monster Trio. Whether or not she outranks Zoro, Yamato would almost certainly come in ahead of Sanji.
This is not mental gymnastics. This is not trolling. This is not all the other things that Yamato stans want to label it. It's a genuine opinion. What is the point of this thread if not to discuss ideas? You people act like this is a competition and try to diagnose the mental deficiency which produces counter arguments.
Not to mention really similar arguments are used against Carrot joining all the time. People in this thread went crazy over Usopp climbing the mast to snipe some guards and treated it like some smoking gun. You can sure bet that if the shoe were on the other foot and Carrot ignored Luffy's orders, the same people saying it's mental gymnastics to even consider the possibility Yamato is too similar to Luffy to submit to Luffy as a captain, would be singing a completely different tune if it didn't apply to Yamato.
I also never said anyone in the story will blame Yamato. I'm saying from an outside perspective, Yamato wanted to go help Luffy fight Kaido. Luffy had already given her a job to do and she stopped doing it. Noble intention or not, she didn't follow Luffy's orders and things went disastrously wrong soon afterward.
I've mentioned the same thing. Currently, he'd rank above all but Luffy if he were to join. And after the nonsense I've seen regarding Sanji vs Zoro recently, neither of them would be relevant if he joined. It would be Luffy, Yamato, and then who cares because no one else would be stronger.
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Is obeying orders even a strawhat characteristic? Those dongs feel like they question "orders" all the time, and are all the better for it. Not that i would describe prioritizing the need to hold off Dado from killing everyone until Luff is back as a betrayal of any sort. It is a sound battle field decision anyone with half a brain would have made in that situation
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We really doing the blame game here? Let me try and get the logic down.
Kinemon’s dead, and if Yamato didn’t leave, he could have stayed and protected everyone! So it’s his fault for not following Luffy’s orders!
Except, why did he leave? Luffy was fighting 1v1 against Kaido. Kaido should have still been on the roof when Yamato left Momo, but he wasn’t because Luffy failed. If Luffy hadn’t failed, Kaido wouldn’t have left the roof and wouldn’t have killed Kinemon. So it’s actually Luffy’s fault that Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Luffy alone on the roof? Law was there and left. Kaido wouldn't have left if Law was still up on the roof. He should have stayed so it wasn’t a 1v1, so it’s Law’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But Law could have left if Kid had stayed. Kid abandoned them all on the roof, so it’s Kid’s fault Kinemon is dead.
Except Kid left to stall Big Mom. Why is Big Mom on the island? Because Luffy invaded her territory to get Sanji back. Sanji left to keep the strawhats out of trouble or else Luffy wouldn’t have had to rescue him. So it’s Sanji’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Sanji even in this mess? It was Judge pulling the strings, so Judge is the reason Kinemon is dead.
All the while Kinemon was safe on Zou and Wano. The only reason Luffy was able to make it to Wano was because Pedro sacrificed himself to allow their escape. If Luffy had died in WCI, Kinemon would have been captured much earlier in Wano, so it’s Pedro’s fault that Kinemon is dead on Onigashima.
But why did Pedro sacrifice himself? Because that damned Perospero was following them! It’s all the candy man’s fault. If I know anything of revenge in One Piece, all roads go back to Perospero, the true mastermind of the series.
Oh, but it's different for Yamato because he was given an order, which he fulfilled. Without Yamato, Momo would in fact be dead. Sasaki would have killed him. Luffy would consider that mission complete.
Honestly, if you stop at any point in this and place blame, it shows your personal bias. You place a blame somewhere on someone because you want to place blame on them. The plot is far to intricate and unpredictable that you cannot place blame on any one individual. Luffy sure as hell isn’t going to. End of the day only one person is responsible for Kinemon’s death: Kaido. Just as there is one person responsible for Pedro's death: Pedro. To argue anything else is to, in fact, perform mental gymnastics to justify your own bias.
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I mean, Yamato warned them of the Marys and was eager to help Luffy out after finding out Luffy was in a one on one round against Kaido, which Luffy lost, which led to Kaido being allowed to swoop on down with nothing in his way and hurt Kinemon in the process.
So it's Luffy's fault?
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@Vongola_Boss_XI:
I think it's really interesting Sanji can be blamed for 'not trusting the crew' and going to Whole Cake Island alone, but the new fan favorite Yamato is entirely immune to the slightest bit of criticism.\
Not really the same thing.
Sanji not trusting the crew is a direct thing with them based prior events and experience (Nami and Robin specifically).
Even then ppl blaming Sanji for anything are jist as dumb. They didn't know his reasons or trauma or history with his family.
With Yamato its a pretty dumb reach about the actions of other ppl that were not his responsibility or his fault.
Luffy told Yamato to protect Momo. Not Kinnemon. Kaido is just as likely to attack them even with Yamato being there. You can't place a what if scenario in to your reasoning to guilt a character.
Kinnemon would try to protect Momo by attacking or outright attacking Kaido (cuz you know Oden) anyway.
It'd be a different scenario if Momo was hurt or killed.
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Yeah, it's totally bizarre to me how anyone could blame Yamato for this super logical choice. Only because Kaido mocked him for it doesn't mean he's right.
Yams knew that it was only a matter of time before Kaido overwhelms Luffy in a 1 vs. 1 and then obviously proceeds to slaughter everyone on the live floor. One could even argue that he should have left them even earlier.
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I've mentioned the same thing. Currently, he'd rank above all but Luffy if he were to join. And after the nonsense I've seen regarding Sanji vs Zoro recently, neither of them would be relevant if he joined. It would be Luffy, Yamato, and then who cares because no one else would be stronger.
LOL
Guess yall would have to deal with it if that's what you believe.
All that fan power scaling could do with some table clearing.
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We really doing the blame game here? Let me try and get the logic down.
Kinemon’s dead, and if Yamato didn’t leave, he could have stayed and protected everyone! So it’s his fault for not following Luffy’s orders!
Except, why did he leave? Luffy was fighting 1v1 against Kaido. Kaido should have still been on the roof when Yamato left Momo, but he wasn’t because Luffy failed. If Luffy hadn’t failed, Kaido wouldn’t have left the roof and wouldn’t have killed Kinemon. So it’s actually Luffy’s fault that Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Luffy alone on the roof? Law was there and left. Kaido wouldn't have left if Law was still up on the roof. He should have stayed so it wasn’t a 1v1, so it’s Law’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But Law could have left if Kid had stayed. Kid abandoned them all on the roof, so it’s Kid’s fault Kinemon is dead.
Except Kid left to stall Big Mom. Why is Big Mom on the island? Because Luffy invaded her territory to get Sanji back. Sanji left to keep the strawhats out of trouble or else Luffy wouldn’t have had to rescue him. So it’s Sanji’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Sanji even in this mess? It was Judge pulling the strings, so Judge is the reason Kinemon is dead.
All the while Kinemon was safe on Zou and Wano. The only reason Luffy was able to make it to Wano was because Pedro sacrificed himself to allow their escape. If Luffy had died in WCI, Kinemon would have been captured much earlier in Wano, so it’s Pedro’s fault that Kinemon is dead on Onigashima.
But why did Pedro sacrifice himself? Because that damned Perospero was following them! It’s all the candy man’s fault. If I know anything of revenge in One Piece, all roads go back to Perospero, the true mastermind of the series.
Oh, but it's different for Yamato because he was given an order, which he fulfilled. Without Yamato, Momo would in fact be dead. Sasaki would have killed him. Luffy would consider that mission complete.
Honestly, if you stop at any point in this and place blame, it shows your personal bias. You place a blame somewhere on someone because you want to place blame on them. The plot is far to intricate and unpredictable that you cannot place blame on any one individual. Luffy sure as hell isn’t going to. End of the day only one person is responsible for Kinemon’s death: Kaido. Just as there is one person responsible for Pedro's death: Pedro. To argue anything else is to, in fact, perform mental gymnastics to justify your own bias.
Not for me. I already said it was bad writing. Oda-sensei had to get Yamato to the roof and the method in which he came up to do so was flawed and short-sighted. Luffy asked Yamato to protect Momo. That's technically an open-ended request that doesn't expire. Yamato became more fixated on what was going on with Luffy and left Momo (with a decoy that fooled like one fodder character) assuming he was safe. Kaido shows up, obliterates Kinemon who now has to protect Momo alone, and Shinobu and Momo barely escape. Again, it was how Oda-sensei handled it. He got Yamato to the roof, but made it look sloppy along the way.
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We really doing the blame game here? Let me try and get the logic down.
Kinemon’s dead, and if Yamato didn’t leave, he could have stayed and protected everyone! So it’s his fault for not following Luffy’s orders!
Except, why did he leave? Luffy was fighting 1v1 against Kaido. Kaido should have still been on the roof when Yamato left Momo, but he wasn’t because Luffy failed. If Luffy hadn’t failed, Kaido wouldn’t have left the roof and wouldn’t have killed Kinemon. So it’s actually Luffy’s fault that Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Luffy alone on the roof? Law was there and left. Kaido wouldn't have left if Law was still up on the roof. He should have stayed so it wasn’t a 1v1, so it’s Law’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But Law could have left if Kid had stayed. Kid abandoned them all on the roof, so it’s Kid’s fault Kinemon is dead.
Except Kid left to stall Big Mom. Why is Big Mom on the island? Because Luffy invaded her territory to get Sanji back. Sanji left to keep the strawhats out of trouble or else Luffy wouldn’t have had to rescue him. So it’s Sanji’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Sanji even in this mess? It was Judge pulling the strings, so Judge is the reason Kinemon is dead.
All the while Kinemon was safe on Zou and Wano. The only reason Luffy was able to make it to Wano was because Pedro sacrificed himself to allow their escape. If Luffy had died in WCI, Kinemon would have been captured much earlier in Wano, so it’s Pedro’s fault that Kinemon is dead on Onigashima.
But why did Pedro sacrifice himself? Because that damned Perospero was following them! It’s all the candy man’s fault. If I know anything of revenge in One Piece, all roads go back to Perospero, the true mastermind of the series.
Oh, but it's different for Yamato because he was given an order, which he fulfilled. Without Yamato, Momo would in fact be dead. Sasaki would have killed him. Luffy would consider that mission complete.
Honestly, if you stop at any point in this and place blame, it shows your personal bias. You place a blame somewhere on someone because you want to place blame on them. The plot is far to intricate and unpredictable that you cannot place blame on any one individual. Luffy sure as hell isn’t going to. End of the day only one person is responsible for Kinemon’s death: Kaido. Just as there is one person responsible for Pedro's death: Pedro. To argue anything else is to, in fact, perform mental gymnastics to justify your own bias.
Go back far enough and I bet this is Shanks' and then Roger's fault then Whitebeard's the reason Kinnemon's dead.
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Not for me. I already said it was bad writing. Oda-sensei had to get Yamato to the roof and the method in which he came up to do so was flawed and short-sighted. Luffy asked Yamato to protect Momo. That's technically an open-ended request that doesn't expire. Yamato became more fixated on what was going on with Luffy and left Momo (with a decoy that fooled like one fodder character) assuming he was safe. Kaido shows up, obliterates Kinemon who now has to protect Momo alone, and Shinobu and Momo barely escape. Again, it was how Oda-sensei handled it. He got Yamato to the roof, but made it look sloppy along the way.
Yeah but Kinnemon would've stepped up regardless even if Yamato was there.
In the end Momo was still safe.
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All I'm doing is applying the same logic the people mocking this line of thought used against other characters. But I guess people aren't willing to see that. I also wasn't trying to blame Yamato. I was suggesting that yes, there are potentially ramifications of Yamato's choice, which, whether the reasoning was sound or not, was the wrong choice because Momo was very quickly discovered as soon as Yamato left him and Shinobu alone, but more importantly that not listening to the one directive she received from Luffy up to this point lends to the idea she's more of a leader than a follower.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
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I don't consider any of the realhats to be followers so i have a hard time wrapping my head around that one. Most of then are incredibly headstrong and proactice, with some of them even being leaders themselves prior to becoming pirates
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We really doing the blame game here? Let me try and get the logic down.
Kinemon’s dead, and if Yamato didn’t leave, he could have stayed and protected everyone! So it’s his fault for not following Luffy’s orders!
Except, why did he leave? Luffy was fighting 1v1 against Kaido. Kaido should have still been on the roof when Yamato left Momo, but he wasn’t because Luffy failed. If Luffy hadn’t failed, Kaido wouldn’t have left the roof and wouldn’t have killed Kinemon. So it’s actually Luffy’s fault that Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Luffy alone on the roof? Law was there and left. Kaido wouldn't have left if Law was still up on the roof. He should have stayed so it wasn’t a 1v1, so it’s Law’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But Law could have left if Kid had stayed. Kid abandoned them all on the roof, so it’s Kid’s fault Kinemon is dead.
Except Kid left to stall Big Mom. Why is Big Mom on the island? Because Luffy invaded her territory to get Sanji back. Sanji left to keep the strawhats out of trouble or else Luffy wouldn’t have had to rescue him. So it’s Sanji’s fault Kinemon’s dead.
But why was Sanji even in this mess? It was Judge pulling the strings, so Judge is the reason Kinemon is dead.
All the while Kinemon was safe on Zou and Wano. The only reason Luffy was able to make it to Wano was because Pedro sacrificed himself to allow their escape. If Luffy had died in WCI, Kinemon would have been captured much earlier in Wano, so it’s Pedro’s fault that Kinemon is dead on Onigashima.
But why did Pedro sacrifice himself? Because that damned Perospero was following them! It’s all the candy man’s fault. If I know anything of revenge in One Piece, all roads go back to Perospero, the true mastermind of the series.
Oh, but it's different for Yamato because he was given an order, which he fulfilled. Without Yamato, Momo would in fact be dead. Sasaki would have killed him. Luffy would consider that mission complete.
Honestly, if you stop at any point in this and place blame, it shows your personal bias. You place a blame somewhere on someone because you want to place blame on them. The plot is far to intricate and unpredictable that you cannot place blame on any one individual. Luffy sure as hell isn’t going to. End of the day only one person is responsible for Kinemon’s death: Kaido. Just as there is one person responsible for Pedro's death: Pedro. To argue anything else is to, in fact, perform mental gymnastics to justify your own bias.
My point, carrying on what Deicide said yesterday, is partially that the people arguing for Yamato exhibit strong personal bias in the arguments they choose. And even the slightest suggestion that Yamato could do anything but join is increasingly met by derision and a cacophony of hyperbole. People want to pretend there's no room left for discussion on the matter.
I already said I think there's a chance Yamato joins and I think that's the biggest irony here. I'm just not convinced - and I think there are quite a few things which presently point in the opposite direction.
Never treated this like a smoking gun. It was a mild suggestion. That's it. That's the scope of this particular argument. It wasn't even a definitive statement. It's framed more as a rhetorical question of whether or not Yamato's choice would fit with the attitudes and behaviors of Luffy's crew members who, generally speaking, follow captain's orders.
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I also want to point out, in my original post, I said there were multiple factors, including Kaido facing Luffy 1 v 1 which impacted Yamato's choice. Which is why it was only a suggestion that Yamato making a different choice could have potentially averted Kinemon's fate. But some of the people arguing for Yamato in this thread seems to only deal in absolute terms.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I've mentioned the same thing. Currently, he'd rank above all but Luffy if he were to join. And after the nonsense I've seen regarding Sanji vs Zoro recently, neither of them would be relevant if he joined. It would be Luffy, Yamato, and then who cares because no one else would be stronger.
And I mean, Oda could have just not given Yamato conqueror's haki. He didn't give Jimbei CoC, despite the fact that narratively it would have made sense for him.
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People still didn’t get it?
This is not a “blame game”. I don’t think any character will blame Yamato on it. Momo and Shinobu even released him from futy and allowed him to go. I doubt anyone will really do an investigation to get the facts right and then blame Yamato. That’s not the point.
The point is, if happens, how much Yamato will blame himself. And, if he does, how that can affect his decisions from then on.
Because we were alking about the possibility of Yamato as Momo’s or Wano’s guardian. And Oda just made a strange sequence of events in which Yamato left his post to fight his dad, and that decidion gave his dad just enough time to mortally wound Momo’s current guardian and Oden’s first retainer.
Because you may like the idea or not, but what’s the point of making Yamato leave to fight his dad just as his dad arrives where Yamato was?
Yamato probably couldn’t influence Kiku’s fate. He’d probably be confused about “Oden”, allowing the Kiku-Kanjuro-Kin’emon sequence to remain unchanged.
But Yamato maybe could have saved Kin from Kaido’s kanabo. And, even he if he couldn’t, he definitely would be there to hold Kaido, which would prevent Kin’emon’s final desperate attack which led to him being stabbed through the back.
That final attack is a direct consequence (not “fault”) of Yamato not being there, and, it may lead to a certain feeling of guilt on Yamato if he concludes Kin’emon died because he left.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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From Carrot is the traitor meme to design logic about Nami face, pirate atmosphere, etc, many points have been shown to not hold up in this thread and the arc isn't even over yet. I remember another one about Yamato finally meeting Luffy on the roof to show and tell. I don't see that one in this thread anymore.
Nami face has easily been taken over by "we already have a furry with horns" on Twitter.
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Yamato doesn't even care about Kin'emon's existence.
