Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 8 - Onigashima)

BobLoblaw

I've been thinking that about Yamato for a little bit now. Seems like he could have been a biological male and Oda read whatever it was he did and decided to change Yamato's sex. If so, it worked.

It does work, but my question was whether or not he would fundamentally change the gender of a new SH based on something that he read in a book a year prior. Yes, the character is way more interesting as is, but we've seen how long ago he designed the crew he originally envisioned. My question is more about would he really make a "last minute" change to something as core as gender for a new SH that he designed years ago? I mean, I guess he could, but I don't think we've ever seen that before.

Zik

@BobLoblaw:

It does work, but my question was whether or not he would fundamentally change the gender of a new SH based on something that he read in a book a year prior. Yes, the character is way more interesting as is, but we've seen how long ago he designed the crew he originally envisioned. My question is more about would he really make a "last minute" change to something as core as gender for a new SH that he designed years ago? I mean, I guess he could, but I don't think we've ever seen that before.

@Robby:

Change the gender? Or change the sex? They're two very different things.

Female bodied tall Oni daughter of Kaidou might have always been on the table.

Desire to be treated as a man might be a more recent thing that came two years ago when he read Rose of Versailles, but wouldn't affect the design at all given how feminine Oda has run with it.

Change the gender since Yamato is still obviously female. Especially going off of the mirroring of the Rose of Versailles character mentioned.

I think from the outset Oda decides the sex of crewmembers and if that changes then the character most likely goes under an overhaul. Sort of like with that botanist character with the bandana or eyepiece covering being in that one early sketch but being gone in later sketches where now Robin exists. He made some decision about the male to female ration on the crew.

I don't think Oda just simply swapped sexes. I think he created something new. Especially given we haven't seen that character in the story at all but the early helmsman at least showed back up as Klabautermann. Then we got Franky.

Gender though, that he could change. To me he laid the foundation with Bon Clay and all of the Okama. Then took it further with Ivankov and some characters who desired to change sexes or didn't know they wanted that.

Oda didn't have to add those elements at all and could've easily tell the story without them but he didn't. Plus given all the famous pirates he has based characters off I'm pretty sure he's aware of Mary Read (especially since he created Bonney and Calico Yorki). So I can see him taking that one step further in to applying a transgender identity to characters. It's a change that really doesn't subtracts but adds. Also the way he's playing it being trans isn't even the issue.

andre

@BobLoblaw:

It does work, but my question was whether or not he would fundamentally change the gender of a new SH based on something that he read in a book a year prior. Yes, the character is way more interesting as is, but we've seen how long ago he designed the crew he originally envisioned. My question is more about would he really make a "last minute" change to something as core as gender for a new SH that he designed years ago? I mean, I guess he could, but I don't think we've ever seen that before.

There are some pretty drastic changes from the original conceptions of the crewmates to what they are now. Half of their designs are completely different, Usopp's goes from being the vice captain to the sniper and weakest member (arguably). Maybe most notably, Chopper changed from a chain smoking adult reindeer to the small chibi version we have today. I have no clue how much time passed between Oda's initial prototypes and the versions we got, but there was definitely a lot of tinkering. And with Yamato my assumption is that the gender hasn't changed, but the sex.

electricmastro

@Zik:

Wait this is the scene he was talking about? LOL

Katakuri isn't even paying attention to Carrot. It's a temporary passing moment as he pursues Luffy and the strawhats.

This really isn't at all like Zoro, Robin, Usopp, Jimbe, Nami, Sanji, Brook, or even Franky.

Yeah, even for as little prior connection Zoro had with Morgan and Helmeppo, it was still made personal in how he felt threatened that he wouldn’t be able to achieve his dream shared with Kuina in becoming the strongest swordsman after being starved for nine days and the Marines almost shooting him.

I think that if Pedro had tried to blow up Katakuri only to fail, and then for Luffy to take him on, then I can see a more personal connection of Katakuri getting in her way, but Carrot is instead focusing her efforts to defeat Perospero since he’s the one Pedro tried blowing up instead.

JDub

@Deicide:

I'm not betting on it, but, while I call Yamato "he" because the story says so, I feel it's possible that in the end Yamato will just understand that he does not need to be Oden and assume his natural gender. A very tomboysh girl, but a girl.

Because of his design, I think Oda would have made him more masculine if he wanted to hammer home the idea that Yamato is transgender. Kiku is transgender and looks like a girl. The okamas all have girlish features even in masculine bodies. I look at Yamato and can't see anything manly about him.

@Zack:

I wouldn't be surprised if that ends up being the result, but the impression I get from Yamato is less that he would want an outright sex change if he met Ivankov and more that he wants to live like a man as Oda generally defines it in the One Piece world. It's more distinct in Wano, but even in the larger One Piece world, there's a clearly expected way of how one is supposed to act if they're a man or woman in Oda's writing. Yamato saw Oden, read about his life story, and essentially went 'This is who I want to be'. I also don't think it's a coincidence it's Oden who arguably more than any other character represents the manly man masculine archetypes to an extreme.

I agree with Zack. I also think it's important to point out that part of what currently makes Yamato work in terms of queer representation (for me, anyway) is that he has a body that is perceived as feminine, but he identifies masculine. Because the reader must then interrogate the perception of bodies as gendered, the way sex is socially defined along that same binary as gender, and the restrictive and oppressive effects of that binary. Bodies are not "naturally" gendered into a binary (i.e. people are naturally born intersex); discreet binary gender categories are something that we attach to bodies, socially. There's nothing that really says Yamato doesn't have a man's body, other than social perception about what a "man" (however you define that) ought to look like, what physical features and traits a "normal" man "should" have. And likewise, there's nothing really saying that Yamato's body is "female" other than the assumptions of what a "woman" (again, definition may vary) is, and what features a "normal" woman has. But it's those kinds of perceptions and assumptions of what is "normal" that the series positions itself against. It rejects the status quo. And that is an aspect of Yamato's character that is currently set up to be developed in their near future. Yams being a man, regardless of his body or appearance or how that is perceived, is both very unique in universe, and also very One Piece. And to me, it paints a diverse picture of the relationship between body and gender.

Berry Rich

@Zik:

So basically you have to get over the hurdle of Pedro being dead and Oda stressing it so many times to go any further.

Yep. Not many confirmed deaths happen in real time. Ace, Whitebeard, and Yasuie. Each one we have seen their dead bodies. The New World seems to be changing that dynamic but Oda makes a habit of leaving deaths ambiguous.

Pell survived an explosion. Pagaya survived an electric attack. Pound survived Oven's blade. Perospero survived the same explosion that "killed" Pedro but cats are known to have 9 lives. Will of P.

As things stand Zoro is the combatant of the strawhat pirates. That's official.

Knowing Luffy why does he have tondo it in order?

Losing me with this unofficial talk. Nami is the navigator.

Again this unofficial and official talk continues to be wrong. Gin was the first battle commander we met in the story.

Franky also does the ship guarding responsibilities already. So does Zoro and several other strawhats. Why exactly is ship guarding such a significant position again?

So then Usopp gets a powder monkey to assist him.

I don't think you know what a Master-At-Arms is if you thknk Jimbe does any of what the role consists of.

Again, plenty other strawhats have demonstrated being good at ship guarding. Therefore, they don't need an official one.

Yes, Zoro is the Combatant even though all Strawhats are combatants. My point is Zoro is the FIRST crewMATE to be recruited by Luffy. The literal First Mate. This theory provides a solid case why no new member will have the role First Mate.
https://www.opfanpage.com/2020/10/25/why-zoro-is-the-vice-captain-and-right-hand-man-of-luffy/
Stating that, Second Mate and Third Mate don't make sense if there is not a First Mate.

Nami is the "official" Navigator and "unofficial" Quartermaster. The Quartermaster role will not have enough relevance to become a role for a new member so long as Nami is a Strawhat.

I forgot about Gin. My mistake. A Battle/Combat Commander seems like a fit for a bigger crew as the Krieg Pirates had 5000 members. Hmm…but if a new crewmate was the Battle Commander, then they could be in charge of the Grand Fleet. Interesting :happy:
https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/Officer

Master-at-Arms: a petty officer charged with maintaining discipline aboard ship
Jinbe is a MASTER of Fishman Karate which takes self-DISCIPLINE. Jinbe was a soldier to Neptune's Army learning military structure. Jinbe is not afraid to discipline a crewmate, case in point: Arlong.

The current Strawhats did a good enough job of being Ship Guard, but luck and outside support have also contributed to Merry's and Sunny's safety.
1. Kaku could have damaged Merry when Zoro was napping
2. Chopper was saved by Gan Fall during his Ship Guard stint
3. Rain(Dragon) saved Merry from burning by Mohji and Richie
4. Bombing of Sunny by Gifters at Wano
5. Hatchan, Rosy Riders, and Kuma protected Sunny during timeskip

Thousand Sunny is the ship that will sail to Laugh Tale. The journey to One Piece will only get more dangerous and the Sunny may need a designated protector. Plus as I previously defined, the Ship Guard is a superset to Lookout and Ship's Cat. There are multiple ways to protect/guard a ship.

So?

Do you not know those positions are official positions as well? You even go on to assign the roles to existing strawhats.

Well that's just nonsense. One Piece is a story about pirates. Every real world position a pirate has held on a ship exists within the story.

Pretending they're not an option is silly.

For clarification, when I state "official" I am conveying Oda deemed this position important enough to acknowledge in an introbox. ex. Helmsman was introduced way back in Jaya. Only Burgess and Jinbe have the title "officially". But Shiki "helmed" his floating ship in Strong World and was probably the Helmsman of the Rocks Pirates.

Below are the positions IMO that I could see for a new crewmate:
Official Positions
Ship Guard
Combat Commander

Unofficial Positions
Lookout
Striker
Bartender

No it wasn't.

I stated you bringing up those brothers was basically irrelevant overall. Its just a random fact not connected to Pedro or the crew getting or needing a ship guard.

Which is why I bothered to list a bunch of alternatives to ship guard.

There's plenty others.

More pure nonsense.

Meta-clues are potential hints expanded on if the connection is true in hindsight. ex. Jinbe helming to Marineford. Below are potential meta-clues for Pedro:
1. Meowban Brothers as Shipguards
2. Jaguar with rabbit hat on chapter 175 colorspread
3. Luffy imaging a cat statue while leaving Skypiea
4. Luffy's drawn Foxy Pirates Flag
5. Robin thinking of cats when Kuma was explaining the Paw Fruit's abilities
6. Luffy inviting a "leopard" centaur on Punk Hazard; actually Zoro is mistaken as the centaur is part jaguar for his rosettes have spots. Zoro's mistake is probably a reference to Rob Lucci and Kaku
https://wildcatsanctuary.org/the-top-5-differences-between-jaguars-and-leopards/

!

7. A child wearing a Kuma shirt in front of statues in Dressrosa
8. Pedro is the Captain of the Guardians
9. Pedro being mistaken as a Tiger Mink until Tamago corrected the soldier

This amalgamation of meta-clues connects Kuma with his Paw Fruit, Pedro being a jaguar(cat) Mink, Luffy's desire for a statue on his ship, and the unfilled position of Ship Guard.

Cockycent

I was wondering how Oda would get Yamato to Kaido w/o dragging out another Momo protection narrative. Simple and easy Shinobu escape. Now the father can beat up the son for like 8 chapters as the flashback plays followed by Luffy's return. Maybe Momo gets to him and he can fly Luffy to Kaido.

Blowfish

I honestly don't understand the logic behind thinking some new influence on Yamato's life and persona is gonna come out of left field. Short of a potential Mother, who I'm starting to suspect is Black Maria, I think Oda spelled this one out pretty clearly for us in bold. We know exactly who made Yamato a fiery spirited Tomboy; Oden and Kaido himself.

Dad just became too much of a jerk. Oden was Oden, ergo Yamato.

Zik

@Berry:

Yep.

That's what I figured.

Yes, Zoro is the Combatant even though all Strawhats are combatants. My point is Zoro is the FIRST crewMATE to be recruited by Luffy. The literal First Mate.

I am not talking about the order in which a nakama joined the crew.

I'm talking about the ship position of 1st mate a.k.a. Vice-Captain. Currently unfilled. More important than ship guard.

Nami is the "official" Navigator and "unofficial" Quartermaster. The Quartermaster role will not have enough relevance to become a role for a new member so long as Nami is a Strawhat.

Again, lime i've said this unofficial stuff you keep bringing up does not matter.

If that's the case several strawhats are unofficial ship guards and as long as they're there they don't need Pedro to be one.

Master-at-Arms: a petty officer charged with maintaining discipline aboard ship
Jinbe is a MASTER of Fishman Karate which takes self-DISCIPLINE. Jinbe was a soldier to Neptune's Army learning military structure. Jinbe is not afraid to discipline a crewmate, case in point: Arlong.

LOL @ Jimbe disciplined Arlong.

The current Strawhats did a good enough job of being Ship Guard, but luck and outside support have also contributed to Merry's and Sunny's safety.
1. Kaku could have damaged Merry when Zoro was napping
2. Chopper was saved by Gan Fall during his Ship Guard stint
3. Rain(Dragon) saved Merry from burning by Mohji and Richie
4. Bombing of Sunny by Gifters at Wano
5. Hatchan, Rosy Riders, and Kuma protected Sunny during timeskip

The strawhats will always be lucky in convenient moments. It doesn't matter how many times the ship was almost damaged or destroyed. Franky is the shipwright that will fix it.

The Thousand Sunny will never actually get destroyed before Luffy becomes pirate king. Probably won't even after. The crew doesn't need a ship guard. It is no longer a vital position.

Thousand Sunny is the ship that will sail to Laugh Tale. The journey to One Piece will only get more dangerous and the Sunny may need a designated protector. Plus as I previously defined, the Ship Guard is a superset to Lookout and Ship's Cat. There are multiple ways to protect/guard a ship.

Doesn't matter how dangerous things will get. The ship's will be fine as long as Franky is around. There's probably a better argument that he needs a guard just to keep him alive in order to keep fixing the Sunny.

Ship's cat is an even more irrelevant role than ship's guard. They don't need that so it doesn't matter that you fold that in to the duties of a ship guard for some reason. If the strawhats ever actually really need a lookout, Oda will make that need evident.

Below are potential meta-clues for Pedro:
1. Meowban Brothers as Shipguards
2. Jaguar with rabbit hat on chapter 175 colorspread
3. Luffy imaging a cat statue while leaving Skypiea
4. Luffy's drawn Foxy Pirates Flag
5. Robin thinking of cats when Kuma was explaining the Paw Fruit's abilities
6. Luffy inviting a "leopard" centaur on Punk Hazard; actually Zoro is mistaken as the centaur is part jaguar for his rosettes have spots. Zoro's mistake is probably a reference to Rob Lucci and Kaku
https://wildcatsanctuary.org/the-top-5-differences-between-jaguars-and-leopards/

! https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0658-017.png
https://official-ongoing-2.gamindustri.us/manga/One-Piece/0659-008.png
7. A child wearing a Kuma shirt in front of statues in Dressrosa
8. Pedro is the Captain of the Guardians
9. Pedro being mistaken as a Tiger Mink until Tamago corrected the soldier

This amalgamation of meta-clues connects Kuma with his Paw Fruit, Pedro being a jaguar(cat) Mink, Luffy's desire for a statue on his ship, and the unfilled position of Ship Guard.

Yeah I don't think or agree that any of that are meta clues to Pedro joining or a ship guard being the next position of the next nakama. Especially since all that seems to be is a list of meta clues. No in story actual clues or support for that position or for that currently dead character.

electricmastro

@Blowfish:

I honestly don't understand the logic behind thinking some new influence on Yamato's life and persona is gonna come out of left field. Short of a potential Mother, who I'm starting to suspect is Black Maria, I think Oda spelled this one out pretty clearly for us in bold. We know exactly who made Yamato a fiery spirited Tomboy; Oden and Kaido himself.

Dad just became too much of a jerk. Oden was Oden, ergo Yamato.

Except that Yamato is 28 and Black Maria is 29, so this can’t work.

Zik

@JDub:

And likewise, there's nothing really saying that Yamato's body is "female" other than the assumptions of what a "woman" (again, definition may vary) is, and what features a "normal" woman has.

Well, this part is wrong. Being female (or male) has absolutely nothing to do with the assumptions of what a woman is or what a normal woman is.

Yamato is biologically female same way Nami and Robin are. That's just a fact. It's the label we use to discern from male and female. That doesn't change cuz of social perception or assumptions.
@Blowfish:

I honestly don't understand the logic behind thinking some new influence on Yamato's life and persona is gonna come out of left field. Short of a potential Mother, who I'm starting to suspect is Black Maria, I think Oda spelled this one out pretty clearly for us in bold. We know exactly who made Yamato a fiery spirited Tomboy; Oden and Kaido himself.

Dad just became too much of a jerk. Oden was Oden, ergo Yamato.

@electricmastro:

Except that Yamato is 28 and Black Maria is 29, so this can’t work.

LOL

black-leg jex

@Blowfish:

I honestly don't understand the logic behind thinking some new influence on Yamato's life and persona is gonna come out of left field. Short of a potential Mother, who I'm starting to suspect is Black Maria, I think Oda spelled this one out pretty clearly for us in bold. We know exactly who made Yamato a fiery spirited Tomboy; Oden and Kaido himself.

Dad just became too much of a jerk. Oden was Oden, ergo Yamato.

Black Maria and Yamato are the same age, give or take.

Monquito

@Blowfish:

I honestly don't understand the logic behind thinking some new influence on Yamato's life and persona is gonna come out of left field. Short of a potential Mother, who I'm starting to suspect is Black Maria, I think Oda spelled this one out pretty clearly for us in bold. We know exactly who made Yamato a fiery spirited Tomboy; Oden and Kaido himself.

Dad just became too much of a jerk. Oden was Oden, ergo Yamato.

Yamato's relationship with Oden seems rather shallow, it wouldn't work.

And Oden already is Momo, Hiyori, The Scabbards and the entire nation's tragedy.

A whole new character would work much better tbh.

black-leg jex

Have I missed something? Why are people suddenly speculating we need a new character? A new character coming out of left field is certainly possible (after all Yamato himself was a character completely out of left field) but what's happened to make people think one is needed?

Coookie

@black-leg:

Have I missed something? Why are people suddenly speculating we need a new character? A new character coming out of left field is certainly possible (after all Yamato himself was a character completely out of left field) but what's happened to make people think one is needed?

The idea of there being another mentor-like person in Yamato’s past isn’t new, it’s been speculated for a while that there might have been a former Jack and Yamato’s mother is also someone to consider. I guess the bond between Oden and Yamato is so one-sided that people would prefer another person who actually knows of Yamato and could reciprocate the bond

wolfwood

@black-leg:

Black Maria and Yamato are the same age, give or take.

Huh. Black Maria must have lived a rough life cause she feels 40+

black-leg jex

@Coookie:

The idea of there being another mentor-like person in Yamato’s past isn’t new, it’s been speculated for a while that there might have been a former Jack and Yamato’s mother is also someone to consider. I guess the bond between Oden and Yamato is so one-sided that people would prefer another person who actually knows of Yamato and could reciprocate the bond

I feel like Ace and Oden together is enough. I'd rather not have Oda just reuse Sanji or Law's flashback by having:
A) One loving mother who dies and an abusive father
B) A high-level underling of the main bad who develops a bond with Yamato and ends up going away because of it

If Yamato has never left Wano I can't imagine what else it could be than one of those two either.

Monquito

@black-leg:

I feel like Ace and Oden together is enough. I'd rather not have Oda just reuse Sanji or Law's flashback by having:
A) One loving mother who dies and an abusive father
B) A high-level underling of the main bad who develops a bond with Yamato and ends up going away because of it

If Yamato has never left Wano I can't imagine what else it could be than one of those two either.

You're missing it right in the spot man.

The SH's remained good despite all the horrible circumstances they had to endure in their lives, because someone influenced them into keeping good.

Yamato was already good when Ace arrived, and it seems like Oden is more like a Luffy-to-Barto idol than a mentor.

Yamato has grown up in violence-island this whole time, amongst some of the worst criminals out there in the world, yet somehow he remained good.

A someone is clearly missing here.

black-leg jex

I'm pretty sure its just Oden's influence and a side-effect of how Kaidou treated Yamato.

Jabra

There is no reason for Yamato to turn into a bad guy if all he received from Kaido was overprotective, tough love.

Especially since he was sheltered from the outside world, which includes the brutal exploits of his father.

But yeah, the next few chapters will be interesting for sure. I expect Kaido to be the complete opposite of Big Mom in this regard, who treats her many children like expendable assets to increase her influence.
Kaido has only one child - and it's his precious.

Monquito

Yamato once bassically said; Oden was a man right, so I'll be a man too. As his reasoning for being a man, this reasoning however is not respected by the Beast Pirates, Ulti even mocked her for claiming to be Oden.

And yet, they all do refer to Yamato as a man..

I would like to hear the reasoning behind that, when its clearly not because of Oden.

black-leg jex

I feel like Kaidou's tough love is going to be reflective of his own upbringing, which the flashback will show. We know he was an apprentice on the Rocks pirates so I would imagine when he was a teen he probably grew up rough on one of the most notorious pirate ships of the era. Maybe he saw Rocks as a father figure but Rocks was also super abusive so he's internalised that as being the best way to raise a strong child.

I imagine the son thing is probably just Kaidou wanting a son.

ArmamentHero

Regardless, exposition is coming and I'm really curious about all of this.

JDub

@Zik:

Well, this part is wrong. Being female (or male) has absolutely nothing to do with the assumptions of what a woman is or what a normal woman is.

Yamato is biologically female same way Nami and Robin are. That's just a fact. It's the label we use to discern from male and female. That doesn't change cuz of social perception or assumptions.

My point isn’t to say that biological sex isn’t real or doesn’t matter (though certainly more nuanced than the male/female binary we use for it). My point is that we (arbitrarily) assign gender at birth on the basis of features visible on the body, like sex organs and later the presence/absence of breasts. We are the ones that came up with the labels of “male” and “female” with regard to bodies, and it’s not coincidental those definitions operate on the same binary that gender does. The labeling of bodies with gendered language as “male or female” informs the gendering of the person as “man or woman”. I mean just look at the people that saw Yamato’s design, see physical features that are labeled as female like breasts, and then use she/her in spite of everything in the text. It’s the underlying assumption that positions being cis as the “norm”, the idea of the “natural sex/gender” and what that looks like, and positions trans or queer identities as a deviation from that norm.

We are collectively brought up with idea of what a woman’s body looks like and what a man’s body looks like. You (not like you Zik, but the general you) probably have a concept in your head of what masculine and feminine bodies look like. You don’t have to look any further than a clothing section with discreet “mens” and “womens” clothes to see how bodies are socially gendered.

You can say like “oh that’s sex not gender”, and that’s true and that’s an important distinction to draw. But as socially constructed ideas about bodies and identity, the two are not unrelated either; they’re defined along the same restrictive binary and form a feedback loop with each other. Gender is assigned based on sex traits, and the idea of the “natural sex” is used in turn to position that gender as “natural”. Those definitions and assumptions can (and for the liberation of trans and queer people, should) change and be renegotiated, but that is to say that relationship/disconnect between sex and gender is a dynamic that exists in Yamato’s character.

Anyway that’s enough gender theory in the thread for me lol

Solid

@Monquito:

You're missing it right in the spot man.

The SH's remained good despite all the horrible circumstances they had to endure in their lives, because someone influenced them into keeping good.

Yamato was already good when Ace arrived, and it seems like Oden is more like a Luffy-to-Barto idol than a mentor.

Yamato has grown up in violence-island this whole time, amongst some of the worst criminals out there in the world, yet somehow he remained good.

A someone is clearly missing here.

Seeing as how Ringo didnt fall until 2 years after Odens death, there's a possibility that Ushimaru Shimotsuki could be the one youre looking for.

Zik

@black-leg:

Have I missed something? Why are people suddenly speculating we need a new character? A new character coming out of left field is certainly possible (after all Yamato himself was a character completely out of left field) but what's happened to make people think one is needed?

I think they're talking about a new character to serve as a mentor in the flashback.

electricmastro

@black-leg:

I feel like Kaidou's tough love is going to be reflective of his own upbringing, which the flashback will show. We know he was an apprentice on the Rocks pirates so I would imagine when he was a teen he probably grew up rough on one of the most notorious pirate ships of the era. Maybe he saw Rocks as a father figure but Rocks was also super abusive so he's internalised that as being the best way to raise a strong child.

I imagine the son thing is probably just Kaidou wanting a son.

It hasn’t been confirmed that Kaido refers to Yamato as male out of wanting a shogun patriarchy that his subordinates go along with out of fear, but it also hasn’t been confirmed that Kaido refers to Yamato as male out of respect for gender lifestyle choices either, so we’ll have to see.

Syphin

I am quite curious to learn whether Yamato was born being such a romantic or whether such characteristics in his personality were shaped by someone precious to him. Yamato's admiration of Oden has been a fascinating development for me since Yamato's introduction but could the appeal Oden held to Yamato have been based on the experiences Yamato had gone through before that moment? This mentor figure/precious person Yamato had could be someone from before Yamato arrived in Wano Kuni. That character could very well be the reason Yamato was so entranced by the spirit of Oden and the allure of adventure. And this upcoming battle between father and son could reveal who this person was. Someone that inspired Yamato to follow his heart and potentially be the reason for why Yamato wears a Hannya mask.

I also am curious about a potential seventh Wano Family. The existence of Onigashima and its separation from the rest of the six Wano regions is very peculiar to me. Beyond the six Wano clans that ruled each region of Wano Kuni in the past (Kozuki, Kurozumi, Amatsuki, Shitmotsuki, Uzuki and Fugetsu) could there have been a seventh Wano family that was based on Onigashima before the void century? It would make sense for this seventh Wano region to also have a seventh Family/clan. And I wonder if Kaido could be linked to this seventh Wano clan which may potentially have been called Raigetsu (or something along those lines).

Did this potential seventh Wano family not support having a Kozuki member as the Shogun and the Flower Capital as the Capital of the nation? And did this clan also wish to keep Wano open and fight the threat of 800 years ago? With the Kozuki clan determining to close the border, could the seventh Wano family have left Wano Kuni before the borders were closed? Similar to how some Amatsuki members left Wano Kuni, this potential seventh family could have done the same and set-up their new home elsewhere in the world (potentially a Sky Island)? If Kaido and Yamato are descendants of this clan, the members of this seventh Wano family could have mixed blood over the ages and ended up bonding with a blood that gives Kaido and Yamato their horns.

I find Kaido's actions concerning Onigashima to be very interesting. Rather than Kaido taking over the Flower Capital, he is going through a lot of effort to make Onigashima the Capital of Wano - replacing the Flowing Capital physically. There could be a deeper meaning behind Onigashima for Kaido which is also why he built his mansion there 20-25 years ago. Further, is this also why Kaido didn't want to fight Oden there so not to destroy the land and buildings. Kaido REALLY wants Onigashima to be the new capital - New Onigashima. Additionally, Kaido wants his own flesh and blood - his son Yamato, to be Shogun of New Onigashima. Could Kaido referring to Yamato as his son be sourced from his desire to see Yamato as the Shogun for New Onigashima. If Kaido didn't have such a dream in mind for Yamato, would he respect Yamato's desire to be identified as a man?

Kaido being linked to Wano's history through his family may also explain how he knows about Joy Boy and why Yamato considers Momonosuke such an important figure and central to the "Dawn". This connection could also be how Yamato knows about the people with the letter "D" in the middle of their names.

!
!
This battle between Kaido and Yamato could be very revealing and momentous.

electricmastro

@Syphin:

I am quite curious to learn whether Yamato was born being such a romantic or whether such characteristics in his personality were shaped by someone precious to him.

Well apparently really good women have men in themselves, which goes along with a man’s romance.

Zik

@black-leg:

I feel like Ace and Oden together is enough. I'd rather not have Oda just reuse Sanji or Law's flashback by having:
A) One loving mother who dies and an abusive father
B) A high-level underling of the main bad who develops a bond with Yamato and ends up going away because of it

If Yamato has never left Wano I can't imagine what else it could be than one of those two either.

What if its both? Yamato's mother is a woman from Wano who joined the Beast Pirates as the first Jack thinking she could protect the ppl of the country from within, then had Yamato, priorities change, and she dies or is killed before or after Oden does.

Then you got more of the same in a new package.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@JDub:

My point isn’t to say that biological sex isn’t real or doesn’t matter (though certainly more nuanced than the male/female binary we use for it).

Okay, was puzzled for a second there.

My point is that we (arbitrarily) assign gender at birth on the basis of features visible on the body, like sex organs and later the presence/absence of breasts. We are the ones that came up with the labels of “male” and “female” with regard to bodies, and it’s not coincidental those definitions operate on the same binary that gender does.

That's because there are clear biological differences between male and female bodies from aspects such as bearing children, producing milk, periods, colonoscopies, etc.

The labeling of bodies with gendered language as “male or female” informs the gendering of the person as “man or woman”.

Well the assumption that gender mirrors that binary form is cuz for the longest time in society most ppl couldn't envision any other option than those two. Its only recently ppl are coming to terms with what a social construct is anyway. Some still haven't.

I mean just look at the people that saw Yamato’s design, see physical features that are labeled as female like breasts, and then use she/her in spite of everything in the text. It’s the underlying assumption that positions being cis as the “norm”, the idea of the “natural sex/gender” and what that looks like, and positions trans or queer identities as a deviation from that norm.

We are collectively brought up with idea of what a woman’s body looks like and what a man’s body looks like. You (not like you Zik, but the general you) probably have a concept in your head of what masculine and feminine bodies look like. You don’t have to look any further than a clothing section with discreet “mens” and “womens” clothes to see how bodies are socially gendered.

You can say like “oh that’s sex not gender”, and that’s true and that’s an important distinction to draw. But as socially constructed ideas about bodies and identity, the two are not unrelated either; they’re defined along the same restrictive binary and form a feedback loop with each other. Gender is assigned based on sex traits, and the idea of the “natural sex” is used in turn to position that gender as “natural”. Those definitions and assumptions can (and for the liberation of trans and queer people, should) change and be renegotiated, but that is to say that relationship/disconnect between sex and gender is a dynamic that exists in Yamato’s character.

Anyway that’s enough gender theory in the thread for me lol

I totally get what you're saying here.

electricmastro

@Zik:

What if its both? Yamato's mother is a woman from Wano who joined the Beast Pirates as the first Jack thinking she could protect the ppl of the country from within, then had Yamato, priorities change, and she dies or is killed before or after Oden does.

Then you got more of the same in a new package.

Actually, when did Kaido first come to Wano? If it was 28 years ago, then that might mean he met Yamato’s mom at Wano, as opposed to Yamato being born outside of Wano and being brought into Wano by him later.

Zik

@Solid:

Seeing as how Ringo didnt fall until 2 years after Odens death, there's a possibility that Ushimaru Shimotsuki could be the one youre looking for.

Would be wilder if Oda introduced a Roronoa character that served as Yamato's mentor.

Then I can finally get that stronger Zoro connection to Wano.

starlalilymoon

@Monquito:

Yamato once bassically said; Oden was a man right, so I'll be a man too. As his reasoning for being a man, this reasoning however is not respected by the Beast Pirates, Ulti even mocked her for claiming to be Oden.

And yet, they all do refer to Yamato as a man..

I would like to hear the reasoning behind that, when its clearly not because of Oden.

Well, maybe they are doing that to mock Yamato to be honest, along with Kaido, if that makes any sense. To me the whole male thing is Yamato wanting to be like Oden, sorta like a fangirl of sorts. So, maybe with Kaido and his crew, it's their way of mocking Yamato because maybe in their mind being a fangirl of Oden is being like a child, and not a full grown adult. Just what I think anyway.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Zik:

Would be wilder if Oda introduced a Roronoa character that served as Yamato's mentor.

Then I can finally get that stronger Zoro connection to Wano.

Yeah, that would be interesting, but not sure how it would work well with Yamato, as she doesn't use any swords, but a club.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@electricmastro:

Actually, when did Kaido first come to Wano? If it was 28 years ago, then that might mean he met Yamato’s mom at Wano, as opposed to Yamato being born outside of Wano and being brought into Wano by him later.

That would make sense if Yamato's mother was born in Wano, since it would explain why Kaido wants Yamato to be shogun of the country.

King Cannon

[QUOTE=Berry Rich;4128736
Yes, Zoro is the Combatant even though all Strawhats are combatants. My point is Zoro is the FIRST crewMATE to be recruited by Luffy. The literal First Mate. This theory provides a solid case why no new member will have the role First Mate.
https://www.opfanpage.com/2020/10/25/why-zoro-is-the-vice-captain-and-right-hand-man-of-luffy/
Stating that, Second Mate and Third Mate don't make sense if there is not a First Mate.

Yasopp was the first recruit in Shanks' crew, but Beckman is the First Mate.

Z0R0

Can we put Carrot to bed now? No clue how it ever became a prevalent thought in the first place.

Zik

@starlalilymoon:

Yeah, that would be interesting, but not sure how it would work well with Yamato, as she doesn't use any swords, but a club.

The black sheep of the Roronoa family, uses clubs instead of swords

Monquito

@Z0R0:

Can we put Carrot to bed now? No clue how it ever became a prevalent thought in the first place.

She had like no competitors at all.

Now she looks like a Paulie-level of Red Herring in the presence of an actual contender.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Solid:

Seeing as how Ringo didnt fall until 2 years after Odens death, there's a possibility that Ushimaru Shimotsuki could be the one youre looking for.

But Yamato had been in Onigashima since then.

Former Jack works better because he would've been there.

statu variabilis

So I've been thinking and I ( hope/prefer but I ) am quite sure there won't be a new mentor figure for Yamato. (spoilered so that it isnt just a huge wall of text))

Reasons why:

! I think there won't be some IMPORTANT new character for this flashback is that I can't think of a single example ( bar Robin ) where Oda hid the mentor / parent figure from us till the flashback itself. Think about it, we always got to hear or got hinted about someone important to new crewmate before the flashback.
Other reason why someone besides Oden wouldn't make much sense is that Yamato till now hasn't brought such a person AT ALL -> handcuffs, being beaten up, killing Oden Yamato has brought up his resentment of all those things / actions, that he begrudges his father. Ace got mentioned but besides that there is no mention or even a hint of other inspirations for him aside from Oden and his journal which would be IMO a bit strange if there was someone more important there.

My thoughts on that potential new figure:

! Now that isn't to say I don't think we won't get some other character who could play a part in relationship between Kaido and Yams ( namely former Jack sounds good ), I just don't think that that person will end up being some great influence for Yamato. Personally I just think that person would be someone like say Genzo or Zoro's sensei or Patty and Carne - yeah they were a significant part of that persons life but they aren't those that changed their lives. Also I would love to learn more about both Yamatos mother and former calamities.

Why I hope we dont get a new mentor:

! At this point I would rather there isn't someone new to take away focus from Kaido ( and Yamato by extension ). I want this flashback to be ALL about Kaido and Yams. As is Kaido isn't all that fleshed out and this is a great opportunity to do so, especially since it would be told from perspective of a failed parent - child relationship.
Now this part is largely based on Greg column or his post. He pointed out a Japanese proverb that I don't remember but something along the lines of three disasters wind/storm(?), something and fathers. The first two we have already seen Kaido perform during the fights but we still need to see him do the last one. Another thing he said that makes a lot of sense is that Kaido is probably either secretly jealous or secretly admired/impressed by Oden so his kid being non stop about that person could provide a lot of that needed tension.

As for Zoro, since ppl have started to discuss him here, I really hope he doesn't get some secret lineage / pedigree but even if he does getting a Roronoa in Wano to me makes little sense.

! It is already established that he is connected to Wano through his village and dojo but I'd rather the connection remains pretty much as is.
There are a couple of reasons to put it simply I always liked characters that accomplish greatness only with training with their talent being only their own, not passed on by some great ancestor. Also it would slightly sour his flashback with Kuina for me but I don't know how exactly put that one into words but like… if he has Ryuuma pedigree, telling her that she can do it feels like I dunno, kinda bit reminiscent of Trump getting a small loan of a million dollars to me . I'd prefer Oda doesn't diminish that already small and short flashback any further.
! As for someone named Roronoa appearing in Wano.... I mean, sure it's quite possible Kin, Momo and others never learned that was his last name but if they know why not show any reaction at all also with that whole sunnachi bit.
Also pls correct me if I'm wrong here but Roronoa just doesn't sound Wanoese / Japanese at all? So I have a hard time seeing someone like that appear.

Solid

@Monquito:

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

But Yamato had been in Onigashima since then.

Former Jack works better because he would've been there.

maybe he was captured and brought to onigashima too, and yamato sneaked off to see him and talk with him through the jail bars.

freawaru

I don't have much stake in this fight, but my one rule is that any candidate who doesn't have a 2-9 fruit is immediately ignored and laughed out the door. Given the pattern represented on the crew already, the odds are astronomically small that it was unintentional. I've always been of the mind that the paw fruit will get passed to the final member through some shenanigans in a Vegapunk arc.

If Yamato does have a neko fruit model Byakko, then I think that "ne" can be stretched to represent 2 in a weird extended reading. But the thing is that Oda has used the standard kun'yomi and on'yomi readings for all the relevant crew members we currently have. So I'm skeptical even of that possibility.

Cockycent

I disagree with the notion that Yamato has to put on a show and tell performance for Luffy as part of possibly becoming a nakama. Luffy has been distanced from Kaido to give Yamato that 1 on 1 time. Some speculated that Luffy would still be on the roof once the retainer narrative ended with Momo as priority.

Monquito

@freawaru:

I don't have much stake in this fight, but my one rule is that any candidate who doesn't have a 2-9 fruit is immediately ignored and laughed out the door. Given the pattern represented on the crew already, the odds are astronomically small that it was unintentional. I've always been of the mind that the paw fruit will get passed to the final member through some shenanigans in a Vegapunk arc.

If Yamato does have a neko fruit model Byakko, then I think that "ne" can be stretched to represent 2 in a weird extended reading. But the thing is that Oda has used the standard kun'yomi and on'yomi readings for all the relevant crew members we currently have. So I'm skeptical even of that possibility.

The Thousand Sunny is getting it. I do agree that they would get it from Vegapunk, since Kuma is 'dead' after all and VP could've extracted it.

It also makes a lot of sense for the Sunny to get it because they have to do some fast-travel from Laugh Tale to Mariejoa/Gyojin Island.

So that they can release Blonde Ace and Luffy destroys GI as predicted by Shirley.

freawaru

@Monquito:

The Thousand Sunny is getting it. I do agree that they would get it from Vegapunk, since Kuma is 'dead' after all and VP could've extracted it.

It also makes a lot of sense for the Sunny to get it because they have to do some fast-travel from Laugh Tale to Mariejoa/Gyojin Island.

So that they can release Blonde Ace and Luffy destroys GI as predicted by Shirley.

I mean that'd technically be convenient but the boat having a video game-esque fast-travel system completely kills the sense of adventure that Luffy needs. And it also makes Nami useless outside of her maybe telling Paw-Paw Sunny "point in that direction before you blast off"

Monquito

@freawaru:

I mean that'd technically be convenient but the boat having a video game-esque fast-travel system completely kills the sense of adventure that Luffy needs. And it also makes Nami useless outside of her maybe telling Paw-Paw Sunny "point in that direction before you blast off"

They'd already conquered the Grand Line by then. It wouldn't matter anymore.

Plus, just like in videogames, it probably can only fast-travel to the places that's already been to.

Syphin

Can the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi user even use the techniques it affects others with on itself?

If a future Straw Hat is going to bring with them a Devil Fruit that completes the Goroawase Theory, I'd much prefer if that fruit be useful through the future battles remaining i.e. against the Blackbeard Pirates. Additionally, the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi seems a bit overpowered when it can repel an individuals pain and/or divide enemies through repelling them to other regions around the world. Unless, the Nikyu Nikyu no Mi will be severely limited when reintroduced, the Devil Fruit seems too glamorous to fit within the Straw Hat Pirates. Personally, I would much prefer a new Devil Fruit to serve the purpose of completing the Goroawase Theory. What Oda has done with the Gomu Gomu no Mi (Gears), Hito Hito no Mi (Rumble Balls) and the Yomi Yomi no Mi (Soul form), I want to see again in a new seemingly basic Devil Fruit power. I intentionally left the Hana no Mi out because that has been immensely restricted in what it can do - Oda can do so much better with an ability that allows the user to bloom parts of themselves elsewhere (I did enjoy the wings, the clone addition and the ability to redirect projectile-like attacks by blooming her hands around it though) - my excitement for the Robin battle is borderline unhealthy at this point. I am beyond delirious for it. Robin hasn't had a proper battle to feature in since the Skypiea Arc (unless you include the team battle in Thriller Bark) when she demolished Yama. Sure she had some moments to shine during Thriller Bark, Fishman Island, Punk Hazard, Dressrosa, and the 2nd Act of Wano Kuni arcs but they have been minor relative to genuine battle moments.

!
Having a Devil Fruit power that on face value seems underwhelming but in actuality is incredibly versatile when utilised in certain ways seems like a Oda thing to do. The fact that Oda was able to enhance Nami's Clima-Tact by making it sentient without the need of having it consume a Devil Fruit leads me to believe that Oda may continue such creative developments if and when he introduces the final Devil Fruit that will be part of the Straw Hat Pirates.

(I believe the video games have Kuma using his Nikyu Nikyu no Mi on himself to repel his fatigue but nothing cannon so far has confirmed he can use his abilities on himself)

Shiebs

Only way a Paw Paw fruit user becomes the last member is if Oda completely negates the power to take away damage, pain and fatigue

otherwise I have no problem with it, since enough haki power can stop law from using his more OP abilities I assume it would work like that with the Paw Paw user as well

Kurloz

I think Oda can easily wave away the issue of the fruit being overpowered if he writes a new user (if there ever is one) as being a complete newb without good control over it.

Shiebs

@Kurloz:

I think Oda can easily wave away the issue of the fruit being overpowered if he writes a new user (if there ever is one) as being a complete newb without good control over it.

I guess that could work, still seems doubtful to me though

What other 2.9 devil fruits are out there that could be used for our last crewmember?

freawaru

@Shiebs:

What other 2.9 devil fruits are out there that could be used for our last crewmember?

If Oda continues to stick to onyomi and kunyomi, then I think it's
2: fu,ni,ji
9:ko, kyu, ku

Zik

Looking up that Goroawase theory and I come across a Vivi will get Kuma's devil fruit ability theory to fit it.

At least one part of it fits my want of a strawhat 13.

Still want a logia user to join.